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#238559 - 07/16/08 08:05 PM Re: Forgiveness Crap [Re: BJK]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
I'm not yet convinced that the honest expression of any emotion is necessarily wasting energy.

Rage and vengence, most certainly, are distortions of the healthy emotion, anger. But are they inappropriate given the circumstances? In my view, no.

If I tell you that I put my father's ashes on a log and shot them full of holes after he killed himself when I disclosed...does that make me a dangerous character? No. No one was harmed, no one was hurt in the process.

Have I forgiven him? No...because in my heart, I know, if he were alive, he would still do what he always did...hurt people.

I am more suspiscious of people that are too quick to forgive than those who say they cannot or will not.

But, seriously, I am, I got to admit, really curious about the, "The refusal to even attempt to forgive is triggering to me."

Care to talk more about that?


CD


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#238560 - 07/16/08 08:10 PM Re: Forgiveness Crap [Re: CDavid]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Yes but Bryan, he doesn't feel forgiveness. When you say "The refusal to even attempt to forgive is triggering to me" those words force LW into a very tight corner, such that if he doesn't do as you want, and 'try' to forgive, you're going to be triggered.

Now that's not fair, ok?

It's all about LW and what he feels. And right now he doesn't feel forgiveness. I am hoping he feels some measure of validation from those of us who have been there too.

Here's a bad joke that makes a good point:

Question: What did the incestuous Father say to the abused child?
Answer: "You shouldn't feel that way."

See my point?



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/16/08 08:15 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#238562 - 07/16/08 08:15 PM Re: Forgiveness Crap [Re: hogan_dawg]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
Which, is what we come dangerously close to in all of this.

It is manipulative to suggest that I have triggered you, or for anyone to suggest that I have triggered them...if I am simply offering my point of view or opinion in a constructive manner.

CD


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#238563 - 07/16/08 08:17 PM Re: Forgiveness Crap [Re: CDavid]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Fine...live in anger. Have fun.

Arghhhhh.....

Why do I try to help some people...just get crapped on for your efforts...

All we're trying to do is spare you an ulcer, but if you want one so bad...have at it...

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#238564 - 07/16/08 08:21 PM Re: Forgiveness Crap [Re: AndyJB2005]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
Andy, with all due respect I am seriously trying to understand this line of thinking, truly.

I am not advocating living in anger...I am suggesting expressing the anger that is apropriate to the situation.

Certainly, it is not all or nothing...is it?


CD


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#238567 - 07/16/08 08:26 PM Re: Forgiveness Crap [Re: AndyJB2005]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
You know, Andy, lol I remember when I told my Father I had cancer and was dying, and I relayed some of how I felt to him, he remarked:

"Oh if you feel that way you're crazy"

And then he went on to explain to me essentially how I should handle dying.

The issue, Andy, is not in handing someone a solution on a platter and 'right fighting' as if you or I possess the 'right' answer. Also, you will find forcing someone to feel forgiveness won't work for very long. Eventually their real feelings will bubble to the surface.

The issue is whether our answers invalidate the deeply personal feelings of another person and cast their feelings in a negative light, or shadow. One way to work with another person's feelings is to listen to them, not prejudge their feelings, and talk about them in an open and accepting way. In so doing, we show our trust for their best judgment and as good people, allow them to express their humanity.

I trust LW is going to do just fine with his feelings. If he's like me and others though it's going to take time and some effort. But he's ok. Sensible dude.



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/16/08 08:29 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#238569 - 07/16/08 08:30 PM Re: Forgiveness Crap [Re: CDavid]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I'm sorry for my frustration...but it seems like all you ever hear on this board is anger and hatred....I don't remember the last healing post I've seen....honestly....

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#238571 - 07/16/08 08:30 PM Re: Forgiveness Crap [Re: CDavid]
ak Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
Even if 'forgive' is a transitive verb (I am assuming from the context it mean there must be the interaction between two people), 'forgiveness' is a noun, and can be done with whatever I want.

I am sorry that the fact that I have given grace to two of the four men who abused me makes me less trustworthy to you. But as Andy says, what work for one person do not work for another. There is other qualitys of some people, even some people here, who make me feel less trusting to them as well, so certainly I can not find fault with you for that. I just find it sad, as I think myself, and some other people who you may very quickly dismiss, are quite worth getting to know.

Anger and hate can give to some people, and take from others. And expressing anger may not be a bad thing. But to prefer to not engage in anger is not a bad thing either. We all must do what work best for us.

Andrei


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#238574 - 07/16/08 08:41 PM Re: Forgiveness Crap [Re: ak]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
I agree with Andrei...anger directed at someone without being responsible certainly creates distance, not trust. An opportunity to connect is lost.

So...in these circumstances, where our boundaries have been so grievously violated...how do we express the anger necessary to work through it...to get to the other side?


CD


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#238576 - 07/16/08 08:54 PM Re: Forgiveness Crap [Re: CDavid]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Andy I get you - your words aren't lost - forgiveness is a great decision if you can get there and it feels right for you. I can appreciate how naturally felt forgiveness could be a nice step towards healing.

Paternal incest often means the person comes from a patriarchal home where the Father's feelings are paramount, and the child's feelings are wholly washed away, invalidated or replaced by more socially appropriate feelings (i.e., ones that don't upset the family). Very often people go their whole lives feeling what was good for the family, but not true for themselves, as people.

Anger upsets the family. Most of us who had paternal incest happen just weren't permitted to feel emotions that challenged the patriarch. So I'm sure you can see how reasonable it is for someone from this situation to feel anger and rage at this stage in their journey.



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/16/08 08:57 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

Top
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