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#238510 - 07/16/08 12:09 PM Re: Forgiveness Crap - May Be Triggering [Re: LW1527]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
lance, just keep reminding yourself that anger can become a permanent point of arrival, or it could function as a temporary stage in the healing process.

it is very important that you honor your angry feelings right now. if i may suggest that, as difficult as it may be, try to keep these visceral feelings in the gut where they belong, and not permit them to rise to the level of your head where they generate whole new universes of dis-ease.

seems you are in a very triggered state at the moment, and so please maybe get away from the computer for a while and go do some exercise to work off some of this stress energy that seems to be looping for you.

you are making miraculous strides in your recovery......it is breath taking to witness. i can only begin to imagine all the overwhelming feelings that are being released for you at this moment in time.

i have experienced my own in the past, so i can say i do relate to your tension, but also want to remind you that outside this moment that is now holding you captive is a much greener pasture of peace and quietude.

all i can do for you is hold out the hope that i know to be a silver lining in this dark cloud.

stick with it, but don't let it get the best of you. taking a bit of a break might be good right now.

your brother in recovery,

ron

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#238515 - 07/16/08 12:45 PM Re: Forgiveness Crap - May Be Triggering [Re: Sans Logos]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Lance don't you worry one second about feeling thoughts of anger and revenge.

I emphatically do not agree with folks that believe anger or feelings of revenge are unhealthy in themselves. I believe these emotions are far healthier than sucking up the pain and falling into depression, where there is the feeling that nothing can be done and things are hopeless. Far better, in my mind, to be pissed off because at least being pissed off means you are ready to take action and do something about it. Revenge is just one idea about how to do something about it.

Revenge is what people do to try to right injustice. Our whole legal system is based, in part, on punishment. Since punishment only rarely modifies behavior, it is reasonable to say that the remaining benefit is akin to the emotional satisfaction people feel when 'revenge' is given out.

In your case, revenge would give you a power you didn't have when the abuse was given to you. You'd effectively 'reverse' the situation so he would be powerless to stop your revenge.

Relax. It's ok to want some kind of 'power' over the abuser. Hell, if I were in your shoes, I'd want that power too.

Your emotions make sense. The trick now is deciding what to do with them.



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/16/08 12:54 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#238526 - 07/16/08 02:02 PM Re: Forgiveness Crap - May Be Triggering [Re: hogan_dawg]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Individual results may very. One person's way may not be another person's way....

For me, anger and hate ate me up and did not "release" anything, only built it up like a volcano.

Sure, revenge and anger gives you (gave me) power. But not healing power, in my experience. It's like Darth Vader in Star Wars. He was super powerful, but it was controlled by hate -- the dark side of the force -- and eventually did him in.

Just my two cents.

Peace and love. \:\)

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#238534 - 07/16/08 02:52 PM Re: Forgiveness Crap - May Be Triggering [Re: AndyJB2005]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Just spitballing here Lance, and forgive the verbose.

Andy and all the other guys are correct, you don't want to become Darth Vader. It would slow down your healing. Or stunt it.

I have always been convinced that catharsis is not an answer - overexpression of a feeling, or self indulgence, doesn't make a feeling go away. When I read Andy's reply it seemed he was alluding to support of some unpleasant feelings as some kind of "pro catharsis" perspective. For the record I too don't think catharsis is an answer. There's a fine line between indulging an emotion and just experiencing it. I think you're just riding the wave of this feeling and trying it on for size.

That said, no amount of 'self restraint', or 'repression' of anger is going to help one understand what one feels and make it meaningful, and I hope that's not on the table for you either. Your feelings are value neutral, as far as I'm concerned. I don't see why saying "I'm an anger free guy" is any 'better' than "I'd like to shoot my Father". One is more socially acceptable and pleasant to feel, but the other is far more authentically 'YOU' today.

Look, consider this reasoning and see if it makes sense or if it's bull:

You can't acknowledge what you do not feel. In feeling, you are able to fully acknowledge in an experiential way. And you're there right now experiencing it fully. Once acknowledged, it can be understood, as you have memory for the experience to draw upon. And when you understand it, you can make meaning of it. When you make meaning of things, you are powerful.

Once it's meaningful to you, feelings of anger and revenge won't be a threat to your healing at all. And as other guys have said, they probably won't be experienced so sharply.

If you make this shit meaningful, and understood, your (true) need for power will be accomplished, and your (transient) need for revenge will seem much less relevant to your true need.

Empowerment.

Which is what you're doing.



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/16/08 03:31 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#238538 - 07/16/08 03:39 PM Re: Forgiveness Crap - May Be Triggering [Re: hogan_dawg]
LW1527 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 408
Loc: Salt Lake City Ut
I owned what was there and still is there, although it is not to the highest extent it was this morning. I don't know why others are shocked over what I said about vengence. I think it is natural and honest. I spent my younger days denying and telling myself my dad was the greatest and this sort of thing didn't happen or if it did, it was normal.

Yeah, if I had a gun, which I do not, and if he were alive, which he is not, I would calmly shoot him and enjoy going to jail for it. But this whole issue is meaningless since the man is dead. I mean, I can't kill a dead man. In this case, where I obviously cannot kill my father, I think the feelings are healthy and healing as long as my feelings do not find a living target, then it's okay.

It took me this long to feel the horrable betrayal, but I feel there are some who would like me to toss it away. It is what it is. I feel what I feel. I am what I am. Nothing more or less and stuffing it back down and being afraid of the feelings are not productive either. I sensed that there were those that left because it became too intense. Hell, the situation I lived in was intense! I think we need to be here for each other even if say what is going on inside that might be too intense for some.


Lance


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#238540 - 07/16/08 04:13 PM Re: Forgiveness Crap - May Be Triggering [Re: LW1527]
LW1527 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 408
Loc: Salt Lake City Ut
Please forgive me here. I'm intense and outspoken, but it I am not mad or angry at anyone here, especially the kind brothers who have been taking time with me today. I am a fighter and I feel like I am fighting here for something that for some reason pressed too many buttons. I don't know how to prevent that from happening. Please, please, do not think I am angry at anyone here. This is my life-line to sanity. I guess I'm just going through a tough time again. I'll keep low.

Lance


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#238543 - 07/16/08 04:54 PM Re: Forgiveness Crap [Re: hogan_dawg]
KENKEN Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/25/07
Posts: 762
Loc: NOTHERN COLORADO
I am angry and I am not in the correct state of mind to forgive my perp. brother at this time. I can only state for myself and how I feel about my CSA. At this time in my healing, I have lost some of the anger toward him and most of the guilt and shame I had. I blamed myself for the abuse, not anymore. I was a kid and he was the adult. It was not my fault.

I do hear you and you are entitled to your anger and hate. I do not forgive my brother either. I don't know if I ever will. It boils my insides to see him living his "grand life". Am I out for revenge? I don't think so, I just think I want him to pay his dues. It won't change my life, but it will certainly make me feel better.

Ken

_________________________
I AM A GOOD PERSON, I AM A GOOD MAN

From the Movie: Antwone Fisher

***WOR ALUMNI SEQUOIA MARCH 2008***

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#238544 - 07/16/08 05:06 PM Re: Forgiveness Crap [Re: KENKEN]
LW1527 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 408
Loc: Salt Lake City Ut
Ken - I look at your avatar. Who could do this to that cute kid? I am enraged to my gutthat someone could and did that to you. I feel such pain for you and for all of us who are scratching to get to the light. Thank you for your post and encouragement.


Lance


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#238548 - 07/16/08 06:28 PM Re: Forgiveness Crap [Re: hogan_dawg]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
For the sake of those who find forgiveness triggering, I would offer that this is a quote from Richard Hoffman.

It may be triggering...

1
2
3
4
5

"Does anyone remember in our New Age, no-fault moral universe, that to forgive is a transitive verb? That forgiveness is a transaction? That it involves penitence, not pity? Not to mention "the firm purpose of amendment?" What is forgiveness if no one has acknowledged wrongdoing, nor asked for it, nor changed his conduct? What is forgiveness in the case of a serial offender preying upon the helpless? What if turning the other cheek is, in fact, offering up the next child?"


Thank you


CD


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#238555 - 07/16/08 07:24 PM Re: Forgiveness Crap [Re: CDavid]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Dave,

I can't see how forgiveness means turning the other cheek. One can still offer protection, and I believe even more effectively, while forgiving the perps who have wronged us.

Forgiveness isn't triggering to me. The refusal to even attempt to forgive is triggering to me.

Forgiveness is a one sided contract. It involves letting go. It involves giving up that which we cannot control. It involves no action whatsoever on our perps' part, and it creates no benefit whatsoever for our perps. It involves locking up our perps not because we want to get back at them but because we want to protect others who may be hurt by them.

Forgiveness is all about us. It's about our state of mind. It's about not wasting energy on the bastards who don't deserve our energy to be wasted on them.

It's about me and my desire to move on. I forgive for myself and myself only.

And I'll be completely honest when I say that forgiving my mother was the one step in the recovery process that made all of the other steps possible. She's a bitch, and I hate her. But I wish her no ill will. She can have her life now that she is exposed for who she is. All I want from her is to let me have mine.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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