That makes a lot of sense, VL! I think you put the whole spirituality vs religion into perspective quite beautifully!!

Religion is for those that fear hell, spirituality is for those that have been there.

Andy, that is one of the best de>

To me, spirituality is what I believe, and religion what other people think I should believe. How much of both I have in my life is not something for me to be discussing here because my faith in what things I believe is strong enough that it do not need defense, and it do not need 'trolling for converts' (a phrase a friend use for some forms of organized religions).

Andrei

problem with that is now you have to define hell. And that definition will be based (generally) on one's religion - not their spirituality. Sorry - let me fix that. MY definition of hell is definitely based on MY faith and MY religion - but not MY spirituality.

I do not fear it. Nor have I been there.

But i hold my spirituality and my religion very close to my heart - for they are both vital to me. In my demented world - you can't separate them. It's like separating hydrogen from oxygen and claiming you still have water...

Or else you could base it not on the literal but the figurative....or both in that statement.

This is another story from a zen teacher that I think speaks leaky buckets about this topic:

A famous story about Moses:
He was passing through a forest and he saw a man praying. The man was saying such absurd things that Moses had to stop.
What the man was saying was profane, sacrilegious. He was saying, "God, you must be feeling sometimes very alone--
I can come and be always with you like a shadow. Why suffer loneliness when I am here?
And I am not a useless person either--I will give you a good bath, and I will take all the lice from your hair and your body..."

Lice?! Moses could not believe his ears: what is this man talking about?
"And I will cook food for you--everybody likes what I cook. And I will prepare your bed and I will wash your clothes.
When you are ill I will take care of you. I will be a mother to you, a wife to you, a servant, a slave--I can be all kinds of things.
Just give me a hint so I can come..."

Moses stopped him and said,
"What are you doing? To whom are you talking? Lice in God's hair? He needs a bath? Stop this nonsense!
This is not prayer. God will be offended by you."

Looking at Moses, the man fell at his feet.
He said, "I am sorry. I am an illiterate, ignorant man. I don't know how to pray. Please, you teach me!"

So Moses taught him the right way to pray, and he was very happy because he had put a man on the right track.
Happy, puffed up in his ego, Moses went away. And when he was alone in the forest, a thundering voice came from the sky and said,
"Moses, I have sent you into the world to bring people to me, to bridge people with me, but not to take my lovers away from me.
And that's exactly what you have done. That man is one of the most intimate to me. Go back and apologize.
Take your prayer back! You have destroyed the whole beauty of his dialogue. He is sincere, he is loving. His love is true.
Whatsoever he was saying, he was saying from his heart, it was not a ritual. Now what you have given to him is just a ritual.
He will repeat it but it will be only on the lips; it will not be coming from his being."

i've been gnawing on this for a few days and some thoughts rose to the surface:

(disclaimer: each of these betray my personal bias in favor of the paradgm of spirituality over religion)

++++++
religion is: a line drawn in sand
spirituality tromps across it

++++++
religion is a deep chasm etched in the ground of a level playing field
spirituality asks: "what chasm?"

+++++++
religion builds walls
spirituality walks through them

++++++
religion severs connection
spirituality resolves connection

++++++
religion embodies 'that' [implies other-ness]
spirituality embodies 'this' [implies one-ness]

Hmm. This should be amusing... I thought about it a few days and took a stab at it. Warning: Edits might follow if I find something goofy.

+++

Spirituality is all about the ineffable.
Religion is a representation of the ineffable.

+++

Spirituality is never false because it is not articulable.
Religion can be falsified because it is represented. By representing the ineffable, you've erred. And the error is public.

+++

Spirituality does not entail working with a community.
Religion by definition entails working with a community.

+++

Spirituality is not documented.
Religions, aside from a few pre-literate ones, are documented, even if by oral tradition.

+++

Spirituality need not embody stories.
Religion represents the ineffable by means of stories.

+++

Spirituality comes from a single vantage point.
Religion is shared among many people, therefore it is viewed from many vantage points. Indeed, the stories are often about a variety of vantage points, a variety of people.

+++

Spirituality involves little effortful learning.
Religion involves understanding what is represented. Enlightenment, if such a thing exists, is understanding how what is represented is in error, but appreciating it's value in helping grasp the ineffable.

+++

Spirituality that is muddled can stay muddled.
Religions that are muddled can stay muddled, but not without some criticism.

Give us this day our daily breath

spirituality
breathing in
religion
breathing out

Holding it?
Awesome!
(may cause light-headed-ness or red/blue-in-face-ness or and-yer-isms)

Use of "versus" in this thread title also speaks leaky buckets

C as in cryptic (hey rad!)