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#237842 - 07/13/08 12:04 PM Many Christian groups accept gays
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Here's from Webster, a good ol' American dictionary Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

Intolerance
In*tol"er*ance\, n. [L. intolerantia impatience, unendurableness: cf. F. intol['e]rance.]

1. Want of capacity to endure; as, intolerance of light.

2. The quality of being intolerant; refusal to allow to others the enjoyment of their opinions, chosen modes of worship, and the like; want of patience and forbearance; illiberality; bigotry; as, intolerance shown toward a religious sect.

So how can intolerance reveal itself?

Some have said that Christianity is intolerant of the lesbian and gay communities. And for this reason, is not to be 'tolerated' here at Male Survivor.

I submit that is a belief rooted in poor thinking - called 'stereotyping'.

The following shows an Episcopalian Christian church ordaining a gay bishop.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/05/bishop/

Here's one where gay ministers are ordained in a Presbyterian church:

http://www.mlp.org/article.php?story=20080625051355454

Here's one where Unitarians are openly welcoming gays to serve:

http://www.firstunitariantoronto.org/index.htm

Here's one where the United Church endorses gay marriage and has ordained gay and lesbian ministers since 1988:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2003/08/14/uc_gay_marriage030814.html

Here's a Lutheran group ordaining gays:

http://www.elm.org/

Before people take pot shots at all Christianity with the "Christians are bigots" brush, please consider turning that brush on yourself when you say "Christians are such and such" or "Christians believe such and such". Maybe before you justify these stereotyped assertions to yourself, you need to become more 'learned' about the breadth of belief that exists in the Christian faith.

I say 'accept' instead of 'love' here because in previous posts by some atheists and others, 'accept' was the operative concept that needs rooting out - in truth, 'love' is closer to the mark, but I thought I'd get too much flack from invoking a concept that could be construed as being mere 'Christian' love. What is meant by 'accept' is 'to marry and to allow to lead congregations and hold all power positions in the Church' just as non gay leaders can do.



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/13/08 12:21 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#237845 - 07/13/08 12:30 PM Re: Many Christian groups accept gays [Re: hogan_dawg]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
If you are part of these groups, I feel you should try understand our (the gay and lesbians) feelings...and empathize...not shoot us down.

A lot of us have been disowned by our family, friends, co-workers, etc...or even worse...some have been beaten, harassed and threatened. Not just bad words, like the poor Christian gets, but physical violence. And I don't see too many Hindi or Jews or Hare Krishnas beating gays up, do you?

Like with our sexual abuse, it will take time for us to trust again -- if ever. It seems the Christian thing to do is to be by our side, empathize, and understand that we cannot love or accept by force. Just like if someone said to love your sexual abuser, it cannot be done easily. And it can only be done on our time.

Peace and Love. \:\)

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#237847 - 07/13/08 12:37 PM Re: Many Christian groups accept gays [Re: AndyJB2005]
hogan_dawg Offline
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Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Not shooting anyone down - I'm correcting potted thinking by noting when folks can become more learned and thus avoid making the same stereotypes that lead to violence and discord. Please accept my apologies if you've felt injured. Again, I urge you and anyone else reading to please stop saying [all] Christians are X! We're not all the same and we all don't share your conceptions of what we are! I don't believe in Satan, but y'all brush me with that same brush!

I am shooting down textual statements that assert "Christians are X" just as I would shoot down textual statements like "Gays are X", or "Blacks are X" or any other group that can be the subject of sweeping stereotypes and marginalized by these stereotypes!

In essence, what I am shooting down is stereotyped and 'potted' thinking because it is exactly stereotyped and potted thinking that leads to the beating up of gays for crying out loud. Don't you see? It's poor thinking that leads to the beating up of gays just as it is poor thinking that leads to Christian bashing!

If anyone bashes gays here I'll be the first to jump down their throat. But that's not the point. The point is that this BAD behavior doesn't happen 'because' they are Christian any more than gay bashing happens 'because' the person is heterosexual. It happens because they're ignorant and sloppy thinkers.

Please open up your self to the possibility that there are deeply sensitive Christian people too who are tolerant and liberal and loving and don't deserve the abuse that they're handed here.




Edited by hogan_dawg (07/13/08 12:42 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

Top
#237848 - 07/13/08 12:41 PM Re: Many Christian groups accept gays [Re: hogan_dawg]
testingWaters Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 508

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#237849 - 07/13/08 12:44 PM Re: Many Christian groups accept gays [Re: testingWaters]
hogan_dawg Offline
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Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
I went to your link TestingWaters but my post is relevant to this forum and to the present context. Thank you very much for the insight and the needed distraction.

_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

Top
#237850 - 07/13/08 12:50 PM Re: Many Christian groups accept gays [Re: hogan_dawg]
testingWaters Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 508
I respectfully disagree very strongly Hogan and I hope you will consider not mocking my posts or intent, even if you find them distasteful. MS is not now, nor has it ever been, a place where that is appropriate. Love, TW


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#237851 - 07/13/08 12:53 PM Re: Many Christian groups accept gays [Re: testingWaters]
hogan_dawg Offline
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Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
You're preaching to the choir Testingwaters, if you can forgive the 'preaching to the choir' Christian allusion.

I thanked you for the insight and the needed distraction because it took my mind off the topic, let me consider whether my post was more useful on another site, and allowed me to rethink my post and consider whether it was best left here.

I concluded it was best left here. Still undiscussed however is the pressing issue of the fact that we've got 5 major sects of the Christian faith serving gays, and having gays serve in their ministry. This poses a stark contrast to the way Christianity has been represented here on the site.

I am confident that you, as a supporter of free and independent thinking, will permit me my choice.

Best, Dawg



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/13/08 01:03 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

Top
#237853 - 07/13/08 01:02 PM Re: Many Christian groups accept gays [Re: hogan_dawg]
testingWaters Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 508
Hogan, you should do exactly as you see fit and I'm not looking for a dialogue. I was suggesting that beginning another thread about "Christian-bashing" immediately after a similar one was shut down because it had become difficult, might add more fuel to a fire that we could all use a break from. And pragmatically speaking, there *are* other places on the web where you or I or anyone can discuss certain broader religious issues that might be controversial or divisive here.

That is up to you and the Mods. Best, TW


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#237854 - 07/13/08 01:07 PM Re: Many Christian groups accept gays [Re: testingWaters]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
What I post can be divisive if you or anyone else chooses to make it divisive. Just as your remarks can do the same for me, if I choose.

Or, you can choose to make it something that brings people closer. Like, saying "Hey that's cool - I can accept the beliefs of some Christian sects as being ok for a great many gay people"

As you know from your own Buddhist practice, how you choose to wrap my text around your mind is entirely of your selection.

_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#237856 - 07/13/08 01:19 PM Re: Many Christian groups accept gays [Re: hogan_dawg]
testingWaters Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 508
Please be careful and respectful when you make a direct assumption about someone else's private relationship to their spiritual beliefs. What I know from my own Buddhist practice is very much unlike what you have stated here, in fact nearly the opposite.


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#237857 - 07/13/08 01:28 PM Re: Many Christian groups accept gays [Re: testingWaters]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
So, how about posting some links that provide that Christianity is not intolerant of atheism?

Otherwise, I see no other purpose for this thread than to further flame an already ugly situation.

Bryan



Edited by BJK (07/13/08 01:31 PM)
_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#237858 - 07/13/08 01:37 PM Re: Many Christian groups accept gays [Re: testingWaters]
hogan_dawg Offline
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Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
But TestingWaters, you said in your post here that your practice was secular:

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=237063&page=1&fpart=2

Hence, as secular, there are no spiritual beliefs. So I can't have tromped on your spiritual beliefs because they do not exist in a secular practice.

I appealed to your ability to interpret my words without ego, to interpret my remarks in a way that gave you peace, and that, I thought, was high flattery.

Please do accept my apologies for being presumptuous.

_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

Top
#237860 - 07/13/08 01:38 PM Re: Many Christian groups accept gays [Re: hogan_dawg]
hogan_dawg Offline
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Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Bryan you asked

"So, how about posting some links that provide that Christianity is not intolerant of atheism?"

Ok I will:

http://www.firstunitariantoronto.org/index.htm

How's that? Atheists are welcomed if you do a little searching they are welcomed 'EXPLICITLY' and by name.



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/13/08 01:40 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

Top
#237861 - 07/13/08 01:41 PM Re: Many Christian groups accept gays [Re: hogan_dawg]
Gerald2007 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 157
Loc: Southeastern US
All,
Perhaps everyone here should dialogue without ego.

Perhaps we should all focus on what we have in common.

Perhaps we should all practice the 'Love' that is at the core of so many religious and spiritual traditions.

Gerald

_________________________
Alumnus: Weekend of Recovery - Dahlonega, May 2008 and May 2009
We are bound together by the pain of the past and our hopes for the future.

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#237862 - 07/13/08 01:46 PM Re: Many Christian groups accept gays [Re: Gerald2007]
testingWaters Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 508
Hogan, I am very happy that Gerald posted this and I agree. But I would like to make very clear in a non-judgmental way - your logical walk-through of my own beliefs "Hence, as secular, there are no spiritual beliefs. So I can't have tromped on your spiritual beliefs because they do not exist in a secular practice." is *inappropriate* and wholly contrasts what I had just posted requesting that we all be careful of not doing. Finito. Have a great weekend.


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#237863 - 07/13/08 01:46 PM Re: Many Christian groups accept gays [Re: Gerald2007]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Here we go:

http://www.firstunitariantoronto.org/membership.htm

"As a liberal religious movement, Unitarianism attracts independent thinkers into community who embrace differing beliefs within a context of mutual respect and shared values. We believe this context supports both strong individuals and a healthy, vibrant community. First Unitarian is a place where theists (believers in a personal God) and non-theists, Christians, Jews and Buddhists, the rational and the spiritual, can commune in an environment of common purpose and mutual respect. For parents of young children, we provide an alternative to more traditional approaches to religious education. And First Unitarian provides a liberal alternative to Metropolitan Community Church as a religious home for gay and lesbian individuals and families."

They're not my church, per se, but they're decidedly accepting atheists.

Does that suffice?



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/13/08 01:51 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

Top
#237864 - 07/13/08 01:50 PM Re: Many Christian groups accept gays [Re: hogan_dawg]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Testingwaters how can I insult your Ferrari if you say you don't own one?

_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

Top
#237865 - 07/13/08 01:51 PM Re: Many Christian groups accept gays [Re: hogan_dawg]
testingWaters Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 508
Hogan, you are being aggressive. I am sending this thread to the mods.


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#237866 - 07/13/08 01:51 PM Re: Many Christian groups accept gays [Re: hogan_dawg]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Interestingly, if you had followed our previous discussion, I'd already stated that a unitarian belief system does not view Christ as a deity, and therefore does not meet the modern definition of "Christianity".

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#237867 - 07/13/08 01:53 PM Re: Many Christian groups accept gays [Re: testingWaters]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Or you could not send a thread to the mods, and show me your Ferrari.

_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

Top
#237868 - 07/13/08 01:55 PM Re: Many Christian groups accept gays [Re: hogan_dawg]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Actually Bryan 'some' Unitarians believe Christ was a diety, yet are just as tolerant as anyone here. Again, the 'all' versus 'some' notion creeps into the discourse.

_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

Top
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