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#237257 - 07/10/08 02:41 PM The Sprituality and Survivors forum
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
It should be noted that no religion on the planet has the lock on what spirituality is or is not, and all people have the right to pursue their beliefs in the spirituality forum. It is not, after all, the Christianity and Survivors, the Buddhism and Survivors, the Islam and Survivors, the Wicca and Survivors, or the Atheism and Survivors Forum. It is the Spirituality and Survivors Forum. It is to be used to discuss spirituality and how it pertains to our healing.

If one wishes to post about how one's own beliefs aid one's own recovery, then feel free to post it here.

If one wishes to proclaim the moral superiority of their particular beliefs over another set of beliefs, whatever they may be, then the place to do so is not here at MaleSurvivor. There are hundreds or thousands of other sites that cater to that sort of thing, and they will welcome you warmly, assuming you choose a site that shares your beliefs.

This place is about healing, not tearing each other down. If you can't post about spiritual matters in that vein and while keeping that in mind, then the Spirituality and Survivors forum is one that you need to refrain from being active in.

Dewey2k for myself, EGL, FormerTexan, Walkingsouth, TJ Jeff, Alexey, RoadRunner, and the rest of the ModTeam

(Edited to add RoadRunner to list of Moderators concurring with this post)



Edited by Dewey2k (07/11/08 10:33 AM)

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#237261 - 07/10/08 02:50 PM Re: The Sprituality and Survivors forum [Re: Dewey2k]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...


_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#237264 - 07/10/08 02:54 PM Re: The Sprituality and Survivors forum [Re: Dewey2k]
jcf1957 Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 192
Loc: North Of The 49th Parallel
Interesting; by that reply I take it that freedom of speech amounts to nothing.

_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

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#237266 - 07/10/08 03:01 PM Re: The Sprituality and Survivors forum [Re: jcf1957]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
In this place where everyone here is struggling with the pain of abuse, are you saying you would use that freedom to inflict more pain?


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#237267 - 07/10/08 03:10 PM Re: The Sprituality and Survivors forum [Re: Dewey2k]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
Additionally, we are not saying you can not discuss your faith, but that you should not use your faith to attack others and their beliefs.


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#237270 - 07/10/08 03:20 PM Re: The Sprituality and Survivors forum [Re: Dewey2k]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Hey. \:\)

I wanted to say I apologize if my posts are included in your warning in this thread. I wasn't intending to attack anyone, just to teach people more about my beliefs and how they've helped me, since it's not commonly talked about a lot of places.

Please let me know if I have offended, and please accept my apology if I have. \:\)

Peace and love. \:\)

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#237272 - 07/10/08 03:22 PM Re: The Sprituality and Survivors forum [Re: jcf1957]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: jcf1957
Interesting; by that reply I take it that freedom of speech amounts to nothing.

Freedom of speech is an interesting thing. I know a lot of people that think it's one of the things in life that comes with no consequences. (Personally - I don't think ANYTHING in life comes without consequences)

Growing up, I had the right, through freedom of speech, to call my father a royal jack ass. I also would have paid the price for exercising that freedom.

There are prices here too. This site has been carefully (and I think very well) setup to protect those who frequent it. People can still exercise their freedom of speech - but, in my opinion at least, they should be prepared to pay the price.

I figure - this isn't MY site - so it's not MY rules. Which means I follow the rules set by others - even if I don't always care for them. First of all - it shows respect to those who administer and moderate the site. Secondly - I'm willing to drop a little of my "freedom of speech" for the privalege of being a member here. (Privalege - not right....)

My 3 cents worth.

M&m


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#237274 - 07/10/08 03:30 PM Re: The Sprituality and Survivors forum [Re: jcf1957]
VLinvictus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: NY
Freedom of speech is not unlimited. One cannot, to cite the oft-quoted example, shout "fire!" in a crowded theater.

Freedom of speech applies only in the public sphere. Governments cannot censor the speech of citizens in public; private websites, however, have every right to do so.

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#237275 - 07/10/08 03:31 PM Re: The Sprituality and Survivors forum [Re: AndyJB2005]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
i don't think he was talking about you andy. your posts were very neutral and informative.

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#237278 - 07/10/08 03:40 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: Dewey2k]
jcf1957 Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 192
Loc: North Of The 49th Parallel
Originally Posted By: Dewey2k
In this place where everyone here is struggling with the pain of abuse, are you saying you would use that freedom to inflict more pain?


I in no way shape or form endorse what you state.
I just feel that your position negates limitations on what or how people can express their feelings about their own personal affiliation and beliefs on their personal spiritual road to recovery. The fact is this forum has for too long been abused by superfulous crap. I for myself will abide by the rules you have stated. I just wanted to make a clear point of view in all this. No disrespect intended.

_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

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#237279 - 07/10/08 03:46 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: jcf1957]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
I am glad that you clarified your position. Too often people use their faith as a hammer to bludgeon those who don't believe as they do. I trust that this will not happen here in the future.


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#237367 - 07/10/08 11:28 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: jcf1957]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
"If one wishes to post about how one's own beliefs aid one's own recovery, then feel free to post it here."

Mod Team: I know what you mean in the sense that you don't want battles here, but the ambiguity above leaves me with more questions than you've answered. I think it's because you're trying to please everyone, and I doubt it's going to happen, long term. Since the sentence above is ambiguous and a 'belief' can be anything (like a belief that abused kids are sissies) the door is open to offer up anti spirituality debates in a spirituality forum - a bit paradoxical. For example, I can believe that my hating Christianity for it's stupidity helps my healing. I can believe that my hating Islam or Wiccan or Mother Earth temples aids my healing. I can point to thousands of instances where spiritual beliefs have proven to be merely childish and offer up that this 'realization' helps people. While professing any of these beliefs, many people's faith is stomped upon. Surely this isn't what you mean, or is it?

So a little clarification now can save a lot of confusion in the future:

- Do these non spiritual beliefs constitute 'beliefs' in the sense that you mean? If so, there's nothing necessarily spiritual even needed for posting here, is that correct?
- Do 'non spiritual' beliefs that tacitly import a critique of my/our spiritual beliefs constitute 'beliefs' as mentioned in your quote, above?
- If folks can post non spiritually based beliefs here, why call it Spirituality? Why not call it "Unspecified Beliefs that may or may not be Spiritually Rooted?"

Or do you mean:

"If one wishes to post about how one's own 'spiritual' beliefs aid one's own recovery, then feel free to post it here."

Thanks, in advance, for the needed clarification. I believe this section should be a safe place for people who believe in things spiritual and how those spiritual beliefs help people. But if any 'belief' goes, I don't 'believe' your solution will smooth things out in the long run. It'll just mean fighting to defend spiritual beliefs because of a very important ambiguity.

That's my $00.02.



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/11/08 12:20 AM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#237377 - 07/11/08 12:12 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: hogan_dawg]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
I will respond to your post when I have the time to give it due justice.


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#237378 - 07/11/08 12:15 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: Dewey2k]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Ok sorry for the bandwidth. The third bullet point wasn't to be snippy it was meant to amuse, btw - hope you got a laugh.

_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#237404 - 07/11/08 04:29 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: hogan_dawg]
jcf1957 Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 192
Loc: North Of The 49th Parallel
Hogan;

I duly support your post one hundred percent.
I too shall wait to see the Moderators brilliant logic reply on this one. There will always be a flip-side to any affront in this forum.
I really don't see how the Moderators can avoid equivocation in their attempt to smooth this forum over. I completely understand the common denominator in this is keeping amiable
affinity with all brothers here at M.S. who struggle with rape/sexual abuse affliction. However; spirituality is profoundly personal. As I stated in my private message to one Moderator;
("World history gives clear witness that most wars in the past are almost always affiliated with religion").
In reality Spirituality is too provoking a subject and will almost always create dissensions amongst those who disapprove. Whether the Moderators opt to keep the Spirituality Forum or create a new Forum for Atheists believers
who oppose Buddhist, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, or Christian beliefs your still going to run into heated disputes. It's human nature.




Edited by jcf1957 (07/11/08 07:10 AM)
_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

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#237430 - 07/11/08 09:32 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: jcf1957]
VLinvictus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: NY
Please do not lay the blame for this controversy on our unjustly maligned atheist friends. Anyone holding a minority religious viewpoint (such as Jews like me) is likely to feel uncomfortable when sweeping universal statements about other people's spiritual beliefs and practices are made.

There are two ways one can discuss this topic we call "spirituality" in my experience.

One can talk about onself and discuss one's own beliefs, doubts, fears, hopes, practices, and experiences. I think that an open and honest sharing of how spiritual tools have helped in recovery can be of immense value to people of any faith tradition.

On the other hand, one can talk about other people and their beliefs (or lack thereof) and their practices and what problems or deficiencies one sees in them. That is not so helpful. That belongs properly on one of those debate/disuccsion forums like BeliefNet or others of its ilk, not on a forum that is supposed to be supportive and constructive.

It may see twee, but it would be best if discussions of spirituality were kept in "I" statements. If one talks about oneself, one is less likely to offend others than if one were to talk about them.

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#237440 - 07/11/08 09:57 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: VLinvictus]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: VLinvictus
Please do not lay the blame for this controversy on our unjustly maligned atheist friends. Anyone holding a minority religious viewpoint (such as Jews like me) is likely to feel uncomfortable when sweeping universal statements about other people's spiritual beliefs and practices are made.

There are two ways one can discuss this topic we call "spirituality" in my experience.

One can talk about onself and discuss one's own beliefs, doubts, fears, hopes, practices, and experiences. I think that an open and honest sharing of how spiritual tools have helped in recovery can be of immense value to people of any faith tradition.

On the other hand, one can talk about other people and their beliefs (or lack thereof) and their practices and what problems or deficiencies one sees in them. That is not so helpful. That belongs properly on one of those debate/disuccsion forums like BeliefNet or others of its ilk, not on a forum that is supposed to be supportive and constructive.

It may see twee, but it would be best if discussions of spirituality were kept in "I" statements. If one talks about oneself, one is less likely to offend others than if one were to talk about them.


Thank you for your post. I, as an atheist, embrace the differences among us, though I vehemently object to any belief that labels differening ideologies as inferior or immoral.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#237441 - 07/11/08 10:00 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: VLinvictus]
jcf1957 Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 192
Loc: North Of The 49th Parallel
I agree for the most part of what you state.

I like the idea that you added this statement

("One can talk about onself and discuss one's own beliefs, doubts, fears, hopes, practices, and experiences. I think that an open and honest sharing of how spiritual tools have helped in recovery can be of immense value to people of any faith tradition").

For the sake of all brothers here I would only hope that we could
all uphold the premise of your statement.

Lastly; if you took a personal insult because your Jewish it was in no way implied. I am not biased toward any religion.

_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

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#237445 - 07/11/08 10:13 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: BJK]
jcf1957 Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 192
Loc: North Of The 49th Parallel
Bryan;

Why did you have to add this ?

I vehemently object to any belief that labels differing ideologies as inferior or immoral.

Aren't we trying to move away from this ?





Edited by jcf1957 (07/11/08 10:14 AM)
_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

Top
#237452 - 07/11/08 10:27 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: jcf1957]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: jcf1957
I am not biased toward any religion.


Except atheists?

Originally Posted By: jcf1957
Bryan;

Why did you have to add this ?

I vehemently object to any belief that labels differing ideologies as inferior or immoral.

Aren't we trying to move away from this ?



It most certainly doesn't seem to be a priority of yours.

I interpret your statements to mean: "We'd all get along great if those pesky atheists would just go away."



Edited by BJK (07/11/08 10:28 AM)
_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#237453 - 07/11/08 10:27 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: jcf1957]
Gerald2007 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 157
Loc: Southeastern US
Maybe this will help. I copied it verbatimrom the guidelines for posting on this forum.

Posting Guidelines for Spirituality

This is a forum in which survivors may express and discuss their spiritual journey as it relates to the abuses they’ve encountered. Posters are encouraged to share in first person narrative how spirituality or “spiritual” persons positively or negatively impacted their life, abuse situation, and/or healing journey. Discussions on a wide range of spiritual topics or belief structures are also welcome.

MaleSurvivor recognizes that a survivor’s spiritual journey is often times something he holds very close and dear. Because of that it is asked that all postings in this forum be made with consideration and respect for other users. Statements that marginalize ANY group or belief structure, or remarks that specifically demean or otherwise target them for criticism, will be subject to editing or removal by the moderators.

If you feel a posting in this forum is abusive DO NOT escalate the situation by responding in kind. Please report that post to the moderators using the “Notify” button on the specific posting you find offensive.

Take care,
Gerald

_________________________
Alumnus: Weekend of Recovery - Dahlonega, May 2008 and May 2009
We are bound together by the pain of the past and our hopes for the future.

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#237468 - 07/11/08 11:11 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: Gerald2007]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
"Statements that marginalize ANY group or belief structure, or remarks that specifically demean or otherwise target them for criticism, will be subject to editing or removal by the moderators."

Good theory. I don't believe this has been followed in practice because it puts the Mods in a precarious position.

- All spiritually based religions that have a belief in God were marginalized when it was said, by someone that did not share that belief system, our belief in God is no better than a belief in fairy tales. What was done about it? Nothing. Yet the analogy to fairy tales was clearly demeaning (e.g., fairy tales are for children, right?) and targeted the spiritually based groups for criticism.
- Christianity in particular was demeaned when it was said that our conception of a perfect Christ is a 'bad thing' because it necessarily leads to feelings of insecurity in survivors, a claim backed up by not a whit of empirical evidence, but simply supported by the claim of the speaker (circularity). I don't know the speaker's motivations, but perhaps he would prefer Christianity have a less perfect model of Divinity, perhaps someone like Homer Simpson that everyone can relate to. Either way, we were marginalized in the Survivor context by this remark.

There are other examples I could cite but I'll stop here for brevity sake.

I don't think, Gerald, with all due respect, the maxims presented in the Posting Guidelines have teeth, in practice. What the Mods see is maybe one Christian guy and a couple of undecideds that thinks the post doesn't demean, and two or three that are demeaned. What's a Mod to do? Add up votes? Then the Tyranny of the Majority rules and people are still demeaned while all the really smart Christians are silently turning the other cheek but nonetheless enduring critique of their spiritual beliefs.

It could read as follows:

"Statements that marginalize ANY group or belief structure, or remarks that specifically demean or otherwise target them for criticism, 'will be removed' by the moderators. Our criterion for said removal is: If it is felt to marginalize, demean or otherwise target the faith of one single member of our bulletin board community"

Dawg



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/11/08 11:32 AM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#237469 - 07/11/08 11:13 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: hogan_dawg]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
The point of the matter is that both sides of the argument made comments that are contrary to the stated purpose of this forum.

A statement is in response to last nights post from hogan_dawg is forthcoming.


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#237520 - 07/11/08 03:17 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: Dewey2k]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
After some thought, I have come to the conclusion that my initial post in this thread is clear on the aim of this forum. Furthermore, to quote one of the members here:
Originally Posted By: VLinvictus
There are two ways one can discuss this topic we call "spirituality" in my experience.

One can talk about onself and discuss one's own beliefs, doubts, fears, hopes, practices, and experiences. I think that an open and honest sharing of how spiritual tools have helped in recovery can be of immense value to people of any faith tradition.

On the other hand, one can talk about other people and their beliefs (or lack thereof) and their practices and what problems or deficiencies one sees in them. That is not so helpful. That belongs properly on one of those debate/disuccsion forums like BeliefNet or others of its ilk, not on a forum that is supposed to be supportive and constructive.

Most assuredly, the first method is the method we are enforcing here.

What it boils down to is this:

  • This IS the place to heal.
  • This IS the place to build one another up.
  • This IS a place of recovery and tolerance for each other.
  • This IS NOT the place to bicker about whose faith is superior.
  • This IS NOT the place to proselytize or preach.
  • This IS NOT the place to use your faith to point out why someone is wrong in what they believe.
  • This IS NOT the place to use your faith to point out why someone is wrong in what they are doing.
  • This IS NOT the place to claim any sort of moral superiority over anyone else.

This forum is about one's own personal beliefs and how they help one with their healing. One should post only about one's own beliefs and how they affect them, and not about how their beliefs affect others. One should not focus on how one's own faith can help another or why one's own faith is better than anothers.

Whatever your beliefs may be, and however important they are to you, one can not use this forum to engage in any sort of attack on or verbal war with another member. Debate is good, but the moment a blatant or insinuated personal attack is made, one has crossed the line.

Sweeping statements about morality are not appropriate for this forum and will be removed as they are provocative in nature and do not promote healing.

In the end, whether one posts and what one posts is a choice one has to make for themselves. It is also a choice to post contrary to what we have stated here as our expectations, and that choice would have consequences, such as thread removal or other actions deemed necessary should the issue escalate.

If one is uncomfortable with the conditions this forum runs under, then one can certainly make the choice to not post here and find another web site dedicated to their particular faith to pursue the topics that would not be acceptable here.

Dewey2k for the ModTeam



Edited by Dewey2k (07/11/08 05:51 PM)

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#237742 - 07/12/08 08:33 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: Dewey2k]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6358
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
Originally Posted By: Dewey2k

What it boils down to is this:

  • This IS the place to heal.
  • This IS the place to build one another up.
  • This IS a place of recovery and tolerance for each other.
  • This IS NOT the place to bicker about whose faith is superior.
  • This IS NOT the place to proselytize or preach.
  • This IS NOT the place to use your faith to point out why someone is wrong in what they believe.
  • This IS NOT the place to use your faith to point out why someone is wrong in what they are doing.
  • This IS NOT the place to claim any sort of moral superiority over anyone else.


This forum is about one's own personal beliefs and how they help one with their healing.

One should post only about one's own beliefs and how they affect them, and not about how their beliefs affect others.

One should not focus on how one's own faith can help another or why one's own faith is better than anothers.


1) IN my case, a saving salvation through Christ is what stopped the cycle of self-destructive sexual acting out and put me squarely on a path of safety out of new CSA trauma.

Is sharing what saved my life not acceptable?



2) Christianity has clearly been attacked and marginalized here in the past...even when something as simple as honest clarification was being offered to counter some severe blows.

Am I to now understand that such attacks and marginalization will be dealt with to the letter of the rule?


_________________________
Jesus Loves The Hell Outta Me!

Still's Globs

New Video

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#237744 - 07/12/08 08:42 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: Still]
testingWaters Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 508
This is meant with all due respect for EVERYONE who has posted here.

I decided over the past few weeks that MS could not work for me in the way that it used to. Part of that was, for better or worse, informed by the fact that nearly-fundamentalist Christians here held certain beliefs about their faith.

The primary thing was (and remains) this: I am not comfortable in an environment where there are Christians who believe in a Satan figure that actively connives people into hating god. For me, this is too triggering and dangerous. Because each time I express certain deeply-held beliefs about spirituality, metaphysics and the like, I feel at risk of being understood through the eyes of someone whose worldview suggests that my deepest helf beliefs are part of *their* story about the nature of the world.

And, I would add, for those of us who were abused within a Judeo-Christian setting, things can get very confusing.

For example, when I was a little guy, I really hated "god" for ignoring me and not saving me and helping me. But as an adult, I no longer believe in such a god. So, for me, it is very distressing to be around Christians. Because I both resent and hate the people who hurt me so much to make me hate a Christian god, but I also do not believe in such a god. Kind of a double-bind - I can't get back at them by going for a Jesus-saves type thing (because the adult me isn't buying it) but that leaves little recourse.

Hope this makes sense and *yet again* after my last inflammatory post - this is not meant as an insult to anyone. Thanks.


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#237752 - 07/12/08 09:04 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: testingWaters]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
People can believe I'm being influenced by Satan or that I'm hell bound for being whatever they choose to think. It doesn't really affect me what they think, and it doesn't really reflect or affect my reality just because it is their reality. And that's kind of all that matters to me.

Just because Joe Blow says I'm going to hell doesn't mean they're correct. \:\)





_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#237753 - 07/12/08 09:10 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: AndyJB2005]
testingWaters Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 508
I admire you for being able to feel and hold that, Andy. I'm just at a point where, to some degree, I need to let myself identify with the "Devil" in a sort of ophite gnostic sense. And until I work through it, its gonna be uncomfortable (for me) to engage much with serious Christians.


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#237754 - 07/12/08 09:24 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: testingWaters]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I can relate to you, Testing. I've been burned by the Faithful too. I was once Christian and then I was cast out, by those that loved me, in the name of God and the Bible (I came out gay, they refused to support me). I was 17 or 18, and it crushed me because the people who cast me out were like parents to me....they were certainly more influential to me than any parent I had at that time -- at least positively.

I love them for the positive they gave me, and that was A LOT, and I give them credit for that, but I am still hurting over the negative.

But really, that situation led me to a better place (for me). It really helped me become the man I am today. I think I was being told that I don't have to be a cookie cutter to be a good believer in God. So I'm actually thankful that they cast me out, as weird as that sounds. It took me a while to come to this feeling, so there's no rush. \:\)

I think it led me to see the real God/Jesus, not the plastic God/Jesus some choose, I feel, to see. \:\)

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#237755 - 07/12/08 09:32 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: AndyJB2005]
testingWaters Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 508
I'm with you Andy. With no offense to anyone, it was very helpful for me to come to see Jesus as a mystic who had something very cool to say. That, I can dig very much.

Point is, I do not hate Christians at all. But I resent the fact that my little boy got real *f*cked* by god and I can't help him out by giving him Christ. I'd like to sometimes, but it would not be fair to the rest of me.

It's a complicated place to live.

Love, M


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#237777 - 07/12/08 11:05 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: Still]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
hi everyone, i appreciate what you have to say about the subject at hand.

for my own experience, i came to know 'jesus as my lord and savior' at a time in my life when i was looking to cope with the guilt and shame which was at the same time both the root and apex of my dis-ease. i was using god thru the fundamentalist charismatic movement to take the focus off of my own state of illness. i thought if i only did what the 'bible said' i would be 'ok'. it didn't work for me.

when i got into recovery programs i found i was able to stop using god in such a manner and recast him in what amounted to me to be a more compassionate role, one i could relate to. i learned to allow myself to be vulnerable to a diety i didn't have to measure up, to what seemed to me, impossible standards. one who was not just waitng to swat me down like a fly out of mid air [silly huh?]. i made great strides in my own recovery once i allowed myself to be who i was without having to worry about measuring up to a certain standard. i think that high benchmark was what was expected of me in my family of origin, and so i bulked at the sense that i would never be good enough according to what i perceived were biblical standards, requiring the same level of achievement. for today, i think a lot of my overarching perfectionistic tendencies stem from my failed attempts to come to terms with the family denial regarding the abuse.

after some significant recovery i came to relax, learned to trust a bit, and began to debunk a lot of the myths that i had created around my affiliation with biblical understanding of 'god' and what was expected of me in my struggle to achieve 'righteousness'. that's only my experience. for today, i don't need to relate to christian perspective in the same way i once used to. i seem to have eclipsed my own regimented thinking around the whole issue of spirituality and no longer align myself with a particular religious perspective or 'rule'.

robbie, in regard to the question:
Quote:
Is sharing what saved my life not acceptable?


it think it is acceptable. i know for myself that when anyone [not you specifically] starts speaking in absolute terms regarding the 'one way' to healing or salvation, that where problems arise.

as one person spoke in another post, it is important that we use 'i' statements, so we do not come across as pontificating in terms of our own experience or viewpoint.

one thing, generally speaking, that i have learned over my 55 years [with many of those spent in turmoil attempting to come to terms with my own recovery process] is what 'i' believe about my life, the narrative i keep 'reporting' to myself and the world, about my life, is mercurial, and ever evolving; that belief systems that worked for one chapter may not apply for another.

the viewpoints i held as sacred become easily discarded as they no longer apply and i remain open to new vistas. the truth of my life continues to unfold from day to day, adn i can honestly say that i no longer 'need' to hang my hat on any particular set of 'truths' for the only one i subscribe to is that which calls me to be ready at any moment to the willingness to accept the things i cannot change and the courage to change the things i can.

ron

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#237783 - 07/12/08 11:29 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: Still]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
Robbie,

I will respond to your questions when I have time to give it due justice.


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#237817 - 07/13/08 06:42 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: Still]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown

1) IN my case, a saving salvation through Christ is what stopped the cycle of self-destructive sexual acting out and put me squarely on a path of safety out of new CSA trauma.

Is sharing what saved my life not acceptable?



In my case, the exact opposite holds true. The reason I wasn't able to come to terms with my sexual abuse was because, according to the Christianity I grew up with, I would never be as perfect as Jesus Christ no matter how hard I tried, and Jesus Christ would always be there to judge me. I never could understand, and I still don't understand, how Christ could love everyone, yet still be the ultimate judge of who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Shedding aside the abuses of Christianity was the only way for me to move forward, for if my morality wasn't good enough for the Catholic church, and ultimately Jesus Christ, to accept, then my only alternative was suicide. I was going to hell either way, and the way I looked at it, hell could not possibly have been any worse than the life I was living.

In casting aside Christianity, I have learned to put the ultimate faith in deciding what is right and what is wrong in myself, and I make such decisions by how these decisions affect others.

I accept and cherish your faith, though, Rob, because you use it only as a way to dictate how you live your life. I don't think there is going to be any argument about sharing with the community how finding Christ saved your life because I have yet to see you make any statement regarding how not finding Christ is immoral.

Quote:
2) Christianity has clearly been attacked and marginalized here in the past...even when something as simple as honest clarification was being offered to counter some severe blows.

Am I to now understand that such attacks and marginalization will be dealt with to the letter of the rule?


On the same token, non-Christian beliefs are clearly attacked and marginalized by the simple Christian belief that not accepting Christ is a sin.

I'm still having trouble with this because I see a pattern that has been in place since my first attempt to console someone who was having trouble regarding their relationship with their religion almost a year ago. It was a cry for help, but how do you console someone who has completely lost all semblence of faith in his or her higher power without saying something that is going to be offensive? What do you say to someone who has come to realize that in his own spiritual path, God is not the answer without pissing off the board? This is a critical question because I run across it often, and each time I say something to try to make that person realize that rejecting God is not immoral, I get completely and utterly lambasted whether that be on this forum or in another setting. It has happened four times on this board, and it has happened countless times in local support groups. I've been kicked out of two different twelve step programs for trying to comfort members who refuse to give themselves up to a higher power because I don't think such a step is even remotely necessary. I was rejected by the first therapist I ever sought on my own as a result of attempting to recover from drug addiction because I told her that I refuse to believe in her God. All of those actions reinforced the religion I grew up with which was all about power and not ever being good enough to live up to the standards that Jesus Christ lived.

Spritual abuse is very real, and it is very common. Furthermore, a common thread that spiritual abuse has with sexual abuse is that once the secret is broken, no one believes the victim. It happens on this board. It happens in our communities. I see absolutely no way possible to talk about spiritual abuse on this forum without offending people, and I see absolutely no other venue for people who are victims of spiritual abuse to heal.

It's a double edged sword.

Bryan



Edited by BJK (07/13/08 06:43 AM)
_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#237828 - 07/13/08 09:23 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: BJK]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Robbie said "2) Christianity has clearly been attacked and marginalized here in the past...even when something as simple as honest clarification was being offered to counter some severe blows. Am I to now understand that such attacks and marginalization will be dealt with to the letter of the rule?"

Robbie, give it up. You saw the reaction once Dewey finished his edict - it's 'Open Season' on Christians because it's fashionable to Christian Bash. And as long as it's ok to Christian bash, Christian bashing is going to happen.

Dewey's edict did nothing to stand in the way of Christian Bashing so we have to expect it will be tolerated. So suck it up. Read the other posts here. They're just attacks on some version of Christianity that each nonChristian poster has in mind. One thinks you're ruled by Church dictates (like, you can't think for yourself) and someone else thinks we look for Satan lurking around every corner. They're not well informed people and you can expect criticism that's of the same quality. That's what Christians can expect, ... regularly. Just don't expect tolerance without someone 'one upping' your faith in a not so subtle put down. These aren't tolerant people - these are radicals. So hunker down.




Edited by hogan_dawg (07/13/08 09:41 AM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#237835 - 07/13/08 10:31 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: hogan_dawg]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
This thread has been temporarily locked.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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