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#237453 - 07/11/08 10:27 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: jcf1957]
Gerald2007 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 157
Loc: Southeastern US
Maybe this will help. I copied it verbatimrom the guidelines for posting on this forum.

Posting Guidelines for Spirituality

This is a forum in which survivors may express and discuss their spiritual journey as it relates to the abuses they’ve encountered. Posters are encouraged to share in first person narrative how spirituality or “spiritual” persons positively or negatively impacted their life, abuse situation, and/or healing journey. Discussions on a wide range of spiritual topics or belief structures are also welcome.

MaleSurvivor recognizes that a survivor’s spiritual journey is often times something he holds very close and dear. Because of that it is asked that all postings in this forum be made with consideration and respect for other users. Statements that marginalize ANY group or belief structure, or remarks that specifically demean or otherwise target them for criticism, will be subject to editing or removal by the moderators.

If you feel a posting in this forum is abusive DO NOT escalate the situation by responding in kind. Please report that post to the moderators using the “Notify” button on the specific posting you find offensive.

Take care,
Gerald

_________________________
Alumnus: Weekend of Recovery - Dahlonega, May 2008 and May 2009
We are bound together by the pain of the past and our hopes for the future.

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#237468 - 07/11/08 11:11 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: Gerald2007]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
"Statements that marginalize ANY group or belief structure, or remarks that specifically demean or otherwise target them for criticism, will be subject to editing or removal by the moderators."

Good theory. I don't believe this has been followed in practice because it puts the Mods in a precarious position.

- All spiritually based religions that have a belief in God were marginalized when it was said, by someone that did not share that belief system, our belief in God is no better than a belief in fairy tales. What was done about it? Nothing. Yet the analogy to fairy tales was clearly demeaning (e.g., fairy tales are for children, right?) and targeted the spiritually based groups for criticism.
- Christianity in particular was demeaned when it was said that our conception of a perfect Christ is a 'bad thing' because it necessarily leads to feelings of insecurity in survivors, a claim backed up by not a whit of empirical evidence, but simply supported by the claim of the speaker (circularity). I don't know the speaker's motivations, but perhaps he would prefer Christianity have a less perfect model of Divinity, perhaps someone like Homer Simpson that everyone can relate to. Either way, we were marginalized in the Survivor context by this remark.

There are other examples I could cite but I'll stop here for brevity sake.

I don't think, Gerald, with all due respect, the maxims presented in the Posting Guidelines have teeth, in practice. What the Mods see is maybe one Christian guy and a couple of undecideds that thinks the post doesn't demean, and two or three that are demeaned. What's a Mod to do? Add up votes? Then the Tyranny of the Majority rules and people are still demeaned while all the really smart Christians are silently turning the other cheek but nonetheless enduring critique of their spiritual beliefs.

It could read as follows:

"Statements that marginalize ANY group or belief structure, or remarks that specifically demean or otherwise target them for criticism, 'will be removed' by the moderators. Our criterion for said removal is: If it is felt to marginalize, demean or otherwise target the faith of one single member of our bulletin board community"

Dawg



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/11/08 11:32 AM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#237469 - 07/11/08 11:13 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: hogan_dawg]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
The point of the matter is that both sides of the argument made comments that are contrary to the stated purpose of this forum.

A statement is in response to last nights post from hogan_dawg is forthcoming.


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#237520 - 07/11/08 03:17 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: Dewey2k]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
After some thought, I have come to the conclusion that my initial post in this thread is clear on the aim of this forum. Furthermore, to quote one of the members here:
Originally Posted By: VLinvictus
There are two ways one can discuss this topic we call "spirituality" in my experience.

One can talk about onself and discuss one's own beliefs, doubts, fears, hopes, practices, and experiences. I think that an open and honest sharing of how spiritual tools have helped in recovery can be of immense value to people of any faith tradition.

On the other hand, one can talk about other people and their beliefs (or lack thereof) and their practices and what problems or deficiencies one sees in them. That is not so helpful. That belongs properly on one of those debate/disuccsion forums like BeliefNet or others of its ilk, not on a forum that is supposed to be supportive and constructive.

Most assuredly, the first method is the method we are enforcing here.

What it boils down to is this:

  • This IS the place to heal.
  • This IS the place to build one another up.
  • This IS a place of recovery and tolerance for each other.
  • This IS NOT the place to bicker about whose faith is superior.
  • This IS NOT the place to proselytize or preach.
  • This IS NOT the place to use your faith to point out why someone is wrong in what they believe.
  • This IS NOT the place to use your faith to point out why someone is wrong in what they are doing.
  • This IS NOT the place to claim any sort of moral superiority over anyone else.

This forum is about one's own personal beliefs and how they help one with their healing. One should post only about one's own beliefs and how they affect them, and not about how their beliefs affect others. One should not focus on how one's own faith can help another or why one's own faith is better than anothers.

Whatever your beliefs may be, and however important they are to you, one can not use this forum to engage in any sort of attack on or verbal war with another member. Debate is good, but the moment a blatant or insinuated personal attack is made, one has crossed the line.

Sweeping statements about morality are not appropriate for this forum and will be removed as they are provocative in nature and do not promote healing.

In the end, whether one posts and what one posts is a choice one has to make for themselves. It is also a choice to post contrary to what we have stated here as our expectations, and that choice would have consequences, such as thread removal or other actions deemed necessary should the issue escalate.

If one is uncomfortable with the conditions this forum runs under, then one can certainly make the choice to not post here and find another web site dedicated to their particular faith to pursue the topics that would not be acceptable here.

Dewey2k for the ModTeam



Edited by Dewey2k (07/11/08 05:51 PM)

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#237742 - 07/12/08 08:33 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: Dewey2k]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6357
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
Originally Posted By: Dewey2k

What it boils down to is this:

  • This IS the place to heal.
  • This IS the place to build one another up.
  • This IS a place of recovery and tolerance for each other.
  • This IS NOT the place to bicker about whose faith is superior.
  • This IS NOT the place to proselytize or preach.
  • This IS NOT the place to use your faith to point out why someone is wrong in what they believe.
  • This IS NOT the place to use your faith to point out why someone is wrong in what they are doing.
  • This IS NOT the place to claim any sort of moral superiority over anyone else.


This forum is about one's own personal beliefs and how they help one with their healing.

One should post only about one's own beliefs and how they affect them, and not about how their beliefs affect others.

One should not focus on how one's own faith can help another or why one's own faith is better than anothers.


1) IN my case, a saving salvation through Christ is what stopped the cycle of self-destructive sexual acting out and put me squarely on a path of safety out of new CSA trauma.

Is sharing what saved my life not acceptable?



2) Christianity has clearly been attacked and marginalized here in the past...even when something as simple as honest clarification was being offered to counter some severe blows.

Am I to now understand that such attacks and marginalization will be dealt with to the letter of the rule?


_________________________
Jesus Loves The Hell Outta Me!

Still's Globs

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#237744 - 07/12/08 08:42 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: Still]
testingWaters Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 508
This is meant with all due respect for EVERYONE who has posted here.

I decided over the past few weeks that MS could not work for me in the way that it used to. Part of that was, for better or worse, informed by the fact that nearly-fundamentalist Christians here held certain beliefs about their faith.

The primary thing was (and remains) this: I am not comfortable in an environment where there are Christians who believe in a Satan figure that actively connives people into hating god. For me, this is too triggering and dangerous. Because each time I express certain deeply-held beliefs about spirituality, metaphysics and the like, I feel at risk of being understood through the eyes of someone whose worldview suggests that my deepest helf beliefs are part of *their* story about the nature of the world.

And, I would add, for those of us who were abused within a Judeo-Christian setting, things can get very confusing.

For example, when I was a little guy, I really hated "god" for ignoring me and not saving me and helping me. But as an adult, I no longer believe in such a god. So, for me, it is very distressing to be around Christians. Because I both resent and hate the people who hurt me so much to make me hate a Christian god, but I also do not believe in such a god. Kind of a double-bind - I can't get back at them by going for a Jesus-saves type thing (because the adult me isn't buying it) but that leaves little recourse.

Hope this makes sense and *yet again* after my last inflammatory post - this is not meant as an insult to anyone. Thanks.


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#237752 - 07/12/08 09:04 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: testingWaters]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
People can believe I'm being influenced by Satan or that I'm hell bound for being whatever they choose to think. It doesn't really affect me what they think, and it doesn't really reflect or affect my reality just because it is their reality. And that's kind of all that matters to me.

Just because Joe Blow says I'm going to hell doesn't mean they're correct. \:\)





_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#237753 - 07/12/08 09:10 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: AndyJB2005]
testingWaters Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 508
I admire you for being able to feel and hold that, Andy. I'm just at a point where, to some degree, I need to let myself identify with the "Devil" in a sort of ophite gnostic sense. And until I work through it, its gonna be uncomfortable (for me) to engage much with serious Christians.


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#237754 - 07/12/08 09:24 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: testingWaters]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I can relate to you, Testing. I've been burned by the Faithful too. I was once Christian and then I was cast out, by those that loved me, in the name of God and the Bible (I came out gay, they refused to support me). I was 17 or 18, and it crushed me because the people who cast me out were like parents to me....they were certainly more influential to me than any parent I had at that time -- at least positively.

I love them for the positive they gave me, and that was A LOT, and I give them credit for that, but I am still hurting over the negative.

But really, that situation led me to a better place (for me). It really helped me become the man I am today. I think I was being told that I don't have to be a cookie cutter to be a good believer in God. So I'm actually thankful that they cast me out, as weird as that sounds. It took me a while to come to this feeling, so there's no rush. \:\)

I think it led me to see the real God/Jesus, not the plastic God/Jesus some choose, I feel, to see. \:\)

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#237755 - 07/12/08 09:32 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: AndyJB2005]
testingWaters Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 508
I'm with you Andy. With no offense to anyone, it was very helpful for me to come to see Jesus as a mystic who had something very cool to say. That, I can dig very much.

Point is, I do not hate Christians at all. But I resent the fact that my little boy got real *f*cked* by god and I can't help him out by giving him Christ. I'd like to sometimes, but it would not be fair to the rest of me.

It's a complicated place to live.

Love, M


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