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#237279 - 07/10/08 03:46 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: jcf1957]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
I am glad that you clarified your position. Too often people use their faith as a hammer to bludgeon those who don't believe as they do. I trust that this will not happen here in the future.


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#237367 - 07/10/08 11:28 PM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: jcf1957]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
"If one wishes to post about how one's own beliefs aid one's own recovery, then feel free to post it here."

Mod Team: I know what you mean in the sense that you don't want battles here, but the ambiguity above leaves me with more questions than you've answered. I think it's because you're trying to please everyone, and I doubt it's going to happen, long term. Since the sentence above is ambiguous and a 'belief' can be anything (like a belief that abused kids are sissies) the door is open to offer up anti spirituality debates in a spirituality forum - a bit paradoxical. For example, I can believe that my hating Christianity for it's stupidity helps my healing. I can believe that my hating Islam or Wiccan or Mother Earth temples aids my healing. I can point to thousands of instances where spiritual beliefs have proven to be merely childish and offer up that this 'realization' helps people. While professing any of these beliefs, many people's faith is stomped upon. Surely this isn't what you mean, or is it?

So a little clarification now can save a lot of confusion in the future:

- Do these non spiritual beliefs constitute 'beliefs' in the sense that you mean? If so, there's nothing necessarily spiritual even needed for posting here, is that correct?
- Do 'non spiritual' beliefs that tacitly import a critique of my/our spiritual beliefs constitute 'beliefs' as mentioned in your quote, above?
- If folks can post non spiritually based beliefs here, why call it Spirituality? Why not call it "Unspecified Beliefs that may or may not be Spiritually Rooted?"

Or do you mean:

"If one wishes to post about how one's own 'spiritual' beliefs aid one's own recovery, then feel free to post it here."

Thanks, in advance, for the needed clarification. I believe this section should be a safe place for people who believe in things spiritual and how those spiritual beliefs help people. But if any 'belief' goes, I don't 'believe' your solution will smooth things out in the long run. It'll just mean fighting to defend spiritual beliefs because of a very important ambiguity.

That's my $00.02.



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/11/08 12:20 AM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#237377 - 07/11/08 12:12 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: hogan_dawg]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
I will respond to your post when I have the time to give it due justice.


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#237378 - 07/11/08 12:15 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: Dewey2k]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Ok sorry for the bandwidth. The third bullet point wasn't to be snippy it was meant to amuse, btw - hope you got a laugh.

_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#237404 - 07/11/08 04:29 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: hogan_dawg]
jcf1957 Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 192
Loc: North Of The 49th Parallel
Hogan;

I duly support your post one hundred percent.
I too shall wait to see the Moderators brilliant logic reply on this one. There will always be a flip-side to any affront in this forum.
I really don't see how the Moderators can avoid equivocation in their attempt to smooth this forum over. I completely understand the common denominator in this is keeping amiable
affinity with all brothers here at M.S. who struggle with rape/sexual abuse affliction. However; spirituality is profoundly personal. As I stated in my private message to one Moderator;
("World history gives clear witness that most wars in the past are almost always affiliated with religion").
In reality Spirituality is too provoking a subject and will almost always create dissensions amongst those who disapprove. Whether the Moderators opt to keep the Spirituality Forum or create a new Forum for Atheists believers
who oppose Buddhist, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, or Christian beliefs your still going to run into heated disputes. It's human nature.




Edited by jcf1957 (07/11/08 07:10 AM)
_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

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#237430 - 07/11/08 09:32 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: jcf1957]
VLinvictus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: NY
Please do not lay the blame for this controversy on our unjustly maligned atheist friends. Anyone holding a minority religious viewpoint (such as Jews like me) is likely to feel uncomfortable when sweeping universal statements about other people's spiritual beliefs and practices are made.

There are two ways one can discuss this topic we call "spirituality" in my experience.

One can talk about onself and discuss one's own beliefs, doubts, fears, hopes, practices, and experiences. I think that an open and honest sharing of how spiritual tools have helped in recovery can be of immense value to people of any faith tradition.

On the other hand, one can talk about other people and their beliefs (or lack thereof) and their practices and what problems or deficiencies one sees in them. That is not so helpful. That belongs properly on one of those debate/disuccsion forums like BeliefNet or others of its ilk, not on a forum that is supposed to be supportive and constructive.

It may see twee, but it would be best if discussions of spirituality were kept in "I" statements. If one talks about oneself, one is less likely to offend others than if one were to talk about them.

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#237440 - 07/11/08 09:57 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: VLinvictus]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: VLinvictus
Please do not lay the blame for this controversy on our unjustly maligned atheist friends. Anyone holding a minority religious viewpoint (such as Jews like me) is likely to feel uncomfortable when sweeping universal statements about other people's spiritual beliefs and practices are made.

There are two ways one can discuss this topic we call "spirituality" in my experience.

One can talk about onself and discuss one's own beliefs, doubts, fears, hopes, practices, and experiences. I think that an open and honest sharing of how spiritual tools have helped in recovery can be of immense value to people of any faith tradition.

On the other hand, one can talk about other people and their beliefs (or lack thereof) and their practices and what problems or deficiencies one sees in them. That is not so helpful. That belongs properly on one of those debate/disuccsion forums like BeliefNet or others of its ilk, not on a forum that is supposed to be supportive and constructive.

It may see twee, but it would be best if discussions of spirituality were kept in "I" statements. If one talks about oneself, one is less likely to offend others than if one were to talk about them.


Thank you for your post. I, as an atheist, embrace the differences among us, though I vehemently object to any belief that labels differening ideologies as inferior or immoral.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#237441 - 07/11/08 10:00 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: VLinvictus]
jcf1957 Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 192
Loc: North Of The 49th Parallel
I agree for the most part of what you state.

I like the idea that you added this statement

("One can talk about onself and discuss one's own beliefs, doubts, fears, hopes, practices, and experiences. I think that an open and honest sharing of how spiritual tools have helped in recovery can be of immense value to people of any faith tradition").

For the sake of all brothers here I would only hope that we could
all uphold the premise of your statement.

Lastly; if you took a personal insult because your Jewish it was in no way implied. I am not biased toward any religion.

_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

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#237445 - 07/11/08 10:13 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: BJK]
jcf1957 Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 192
Loc: North Of The 49th Parallel
Bryan;

Why did you have to add this ?

I vehemently object to any belief that labels differing ideologies as inferior or immoral.

Aren't we trying to move away from this ?





Edited by jcf1957 (07/11/08 10:14 AM)
_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

Top
#237452 - 07/11/08 10:27 AM Re: The Spirituality and Survivors forum [Re: jcf1957]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: jcf1957
I am not biased toward any religion.


Except atheists?

Originally Posted By: jcf1957
Bryan;

Why did you have to add this ?

I vehemently object to any belief that labels differing ideologies as inferior or immoral.

Aren't we trying to move away from this ?



It most certainly doesn't seem to be a priority of yours.

I interpret your statements to mean: "We'd all get along great if those pesky atheists would just go away."



Edited by BJK (07/11/08 10:28 AM)
_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
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