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#237063 - 07/09/08 06:07 PM Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion?
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Registered: 11/14/06
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In my belief (Buddhism), we kind of just say "I don't know, we can't physically prove he exists or doesn't exist, so why focus on it?" to the God vs. No God question. We feel it wastes time, energy, and distracts from doing the real, tangible help we can give to the world and to ourselves to debate something we can never logically prove.

You can believe in God and be a Buddhist, or you can not believe in God...it doesn't matter, really.

This is because Buddhism isn't a religion, it's a way of thinking and a way of life, I choose to call it a religion here because its just easier than explaining the differences and subtleties between Buddhism and western religions. However, Buddha never spoke of being a God or any sort of higher being. He was a man and only came to enlightenment through living a virtuous life, as we all can do. Some hold statues of him as a remembrance and a reminder to his teachings, but they are not idols. He never wished to be worshiped, but he simply gave us his teachings as he learned them himself, so we too can not suffer and help others not suffer.

This religion does not obstruct anyone from reading and learning the teachings of other religions, and allows no place for fanaticism. A fanatic cannot allow himself to be guided by reason or even by the scientific principle of observation and analysis. Therefore, the follower of this religion is a free man with an open mind and is not subservient to anyone for his spiritual development.

Certainly there can be Christian Buddhists! \:\) And I'm sure there are many -- in fact, Jesus would make a great Buddhist, from what I've read of Him. \:\)

Instead of placing man and his destiny under the arbitrary control of an unknown external agency and making him subservient to such a supreme power, this religion raised the status of mankind and accorded man the credit due to him for his intelligence. It taught him how to cultivate his submerged human potential.

This religion puts man responsible for himself, for better or worse.

Their motive of doing good to help others is not to please any supreme being in expectation of a reward, but due to feelings of compassion and to release them from sufferings.

Followers of this religion abstain from evil not because of fear of retribution from some unseen being but because of the realization that evil would bring about suffering to living beings.

The followers of this religion do not regard themselves as being the only chosen people who could get the chance to attain heavenly bliss. They believe that man creates his own hell or heaven according to his way of life and that sufferings in hell or realization of heavenly bliss can be experienced in this earthly life instead of just in the life hereafter, as commonly believed. Buddha never tried to introduce his teaching by frightening people through hell fire or by tempting them with everlasting heavenly life but by revealing the truth. Heaven is not reserved for or to be monopolized by any one particular sect or religious community. It should be open to all -- anyone who leads a noble life.

Tolerance, patience and understanding are worthy virtues upheld by the followers of this religion. Loving kindness, compassion and sympathy towards others are not limited to human beings only but extended to all living beings -- since destruction of life, be it human or animal, is cruel and unjust, and is against the teaching of this religion.

This religion also advises its followers to respect other people's views in order to lead a harmonious life. \:\)

This religion is clear, reasonable and gives complete answers to all important aspects and questions about our life. It provides a solid foundation to help mankind towards a positive and better way of life.

This religion does not divide mankind into groups, the "saved" and "unsaved" but as a civilized and understanding religion it teaches us how to tame the wild and refine the tamed.

This religion contends that mind is the all powerful force -- the creator and destroyer of man and the architect of man's fate. Therefore, man should be capable of molding anything if only he knows how to develop and make use of his mind properly.

Here in this religion you can find a way to perfect goodness and wisdom without any aid from any external power. You can achieve the highest wisdom through realization but not necessarily through "revelation." You can attain redemption without the assistance of a vicarious redeemer. You can gain salvation within this lifetime by judicious exercise of your own faculties without waiting for it to happen only in the life hereafter. This religion teach that man is not for religion but that religion is for man.



_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#237195 - 07/10/08 06:41 AM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: AndyJB2005]
hogan_dawg Offline
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Excellent post Andy.

I liked this part "You can believe in God and be a Buddhist, or you can not believe in God...it doesn't matter, really. This is because Buddhism isn't a religion, it's a way of thinking and a way of life, I choose to call it a religion here because its just easier than explaining the differences and subtleties between Buddhism and western religions."

Yeah I agree - when I first became interested in Buddhism I had some misconceptions too, but it's really a prism through which we can see the world in a new light. It's like a philosophical perspective, I guess, for lack of a better label. But certainly worthy of consideration and admiration.

_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#237202 - 07/10/08 08:39 AM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: hogan_dawg]
EGL Offline
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Thanks for posting this, Andy, I learned a lot from reading it. And it sounds like Buddhism has helped you a lot in your journey. There are a lot of basics from it that could be helpful to anyone of any religion, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, whatever.

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Eddie

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#237219 - 07/10/08 10:40 AM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: EGL]
hogan_dawg Offline
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Have you taken any vows Andy? A buddy of mine is Buddhist but he won't go all the way and take a celibacy vow, lol.

_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#237244 - 07/10/08 01:43 PM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: hogan_dawg]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Originally Posted By: hogan_dawg
Have you taken any vows Andy? A buddy of mine is Buddhist but he won't go all the way and take a celibacy vow, lol.


Well, like in any faith, there are some things some feel you need to do and others things some feel you don't need to do -- and depending who you ask, it may be different.

That said, I don't really believe one has to be celibate to be Buddhist and to live a noble life.

When Sidhartha Gautama (The Buddha's name before enlightenment) first left his father's palace and kingdom to explore and experience suffering (he was a prince who knew only the good, easy life before leaving), he at first thought he had to live as an Ascetic.

Ascetics were men who left their family, friends, and jobs to find the answers to life. They did not live in homes or apartments, but lived under trees and in caves, and would practice meditation all day long. They wanted to be really uncomfortable, so they could understand what suffering was all about.

Completely abandoning his luxurious existence, he spent six years as an ascetic, attempting to conquer the innate appetites for food, sex, and comfort by engaging in various yogic disciplines. Eventually near death from his vigilant fasting, he accepted a bowl of rice from a young girl. Once he had eaten, he had a realization that physical sufferings and harshness were not the means to achieve spiritual liberation.

I think this story (shortened for brevity here), kind of points to your question. \:\)

But, for me, I'm not really a sexual person to begin with. I'm sort of celibate anyway, but for other reasons than my faith. \:\)



_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#237493 - 07/11/08 01:22 PM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: AndyJB2005]
hogan_dawg Offline
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Yeah me too - since I've been in hospital the thought of sex with a Hickman line going into my jugular vein has kind of spoiled the moment for me and my wife. But it was removed yesterday so we'll see.

Yeah I think Christ would have made a decent Buddhist, and Buddhists would have tipped their hat to Christ, perhaps wincing at some pieces of the text however. But that's the small stuff. And I wouldn't bet that there wasn't cross talk between Asian faiths and Middle Eastern faiths around that time. More and more I watch documentary programs suggesting links between North African, Egyptian, Middle Eastern and Asian belief systems, trade and travel. Man I wish I could go back to school and read more about this stuff. I don't believe Buddhism and Christianity developed in vacuums, devoid of other influences - I think they borrowed ideas in keeping with the zeitgeist.

What I like about your presentation is that as presented, Buddhism focuses on methodology, not content. I kind of wish that where Christianity was concerned, the focus could be on our methodology, with less emphasis on content (see authoritative canon). For example, the methodology of 'humility' is brilliant, and probably shared in Buddhism, but it gets lost and overshadowed when the focus is on portions of the canonical text that preach fire and brimstone for those who aren't. So is forgiveness and love. Both brilliant priorities that are hard to argue against (e.g., you might as well argue Ghandi was a nasty bastard - it's a loser argument), but packaged in a way that gets lost amidst a list of Do Nots.

An analogous situation is present in Buddhism too, but underplayed in a nice way that leaves the reader with a focus on method. For those who don't live a 'noble life', for example, heavenly bliss won't happen, which leaves some folks out in the lurch (like me, for example, because goodness knows I've done many things that aren't noble by any stretch). But they've presented the method as key, and that's a winning point for Buddhism in my view - whether smart packaging or clever emphasis, I think it's a good thing. lol Naturally of course I'm aware that Buddhism offers people like me the opportunity to lead a noble life, now, as we speak (reminds me of redemption-like concepts), but you get my point. Christianity does too but that message is all wrapped up in a history of 'conversions' that are oft times cited, maybe rightly so, as quite unpalatable (e.g., the Crusades, for example).

It's complicated stuff and I'm no theologian, but after reading your post I'm going to see if I can dig up my handy dandy pocket Buddhism book and have a read. I'm bald already so what the heck? \:D



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/11/08 01:36 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#237505 - 07/11/08 02:02 PM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: hogan_dawg]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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I've often wondered how one has a religion of love and also a religion of damnation. It seems like having both would be incongruent with each other, and in turn, the stronger or more appealing one to the masses would prevail. I feel in our culture of stress and anger, the damnation side of a faith is prevailing -- and we sort of see that, I feel, throughout history into today, in many faiths.

The thing I like about Buddhism is that it's on everyone personally to adopt it or not themselves. It's not "the one and only way," it's merely a suggested way of living, if you want (blank). I think that makes it easier to explore on a personal level than Christianity, at least to me. We don't really feel the need to convert people, at least I don't, but rather I just say what works for me, and say hey, might work for you.

I think the "noble life" is just the high goal to strive for, I don't think it's the "do it or your out of Buddhism" goal. I don't know about you but I am far from a perfect person. I still struggle with my anger and resentment. But through this way of life I am 1000 times better than I've been in the past. I've done things that are far from noble in my life, too. But I think the more I try to live the "noble life" the easier it will be. Buddhism is a practice -- which means you "practice" doing it, you don't just "get it" right away. \:\)

About my Christian references: I only point to Christianity a lot because it is the predominant religion where I live, and it is the one I grew up around and with, so please understand I'm not putting it down. \:\)

I think Jesus and Buddha both were enlightened beings, no different from each other and NOT in competition. I don't believe a lot of what Jesus actually said is being represented in the present day, though. \:\(

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#237507 - 07/11/08 02:21 PM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: AndyJB2005]
VLinvictus Offline
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There is much harmony, I find, between Buddhism on the one hand and the mystical traditions within the Abrahamic religions on the other. I have derived a great deal of meaning from the Jewish mystical tradition, Kabbalah (the real Kabbalah, not the mass-marketed New Age tripe popularized by Madonna). The emphasis on the unity and impermanence of all things and the ethics it inspires are very inspiring to me and very similar, according to my studies, to that of Buddhism.

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#237510 - 07/11/08 02:35 PM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: VLinvictus]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Oh wow, great. Another one I should read about. \:\)

I don't supposed anyone knows anything about Sufi? I seem to remember it being similar to that. \:\)

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#237517 - 07/11/08 03:07 PM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: AndyJB2005]
VLinvictus Offline
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I don't know an awful lot abotu Sufism, but what I have gleaned is very similar: all things are One, single organic and dynamic unity, and true spiritual fulfillment comes from the negation of the self by directing one's heart and mind toward that Unity and living one's daily life in consciousness of that Unity.

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#237522 - 07/11/08 03:28 PM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: VLinvictus]
hogan_dawg Offline
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"We don't really feel the need to convert people, at least I don't, but rather I just say what works for me, and say hey, might work for you."

I can't find any evidence of conversionist practices in present day Buddhism and I'm glad for that. I'm the same way. I don't want the responsibility that conversion brings with it and I don't believe it brings us closer to God or happiness or peace or enlightenment to convert someone to our own beliefs. Besides, it feels pushy. I don't like how it feels. So it's partly an aesthetic thing.

I did a Wikipedia search (yeah yeah) and I 'think' in Buddhism, Christianity, the Muslim faith there have been, historically, targeted campaigns over the centuries to convert people (i.e., to spread the 'word') to the target belief system. But these weren't necessarily done by the religious group themselves - in the case of each one I think I can find rulers, rich people, who aren't leaders in the church, who've done conversion work by means of money and power. And yeah, some religions have done the conversion work themselves, sigh. Anyway, to a lesser extent in Judaism there is acceptance of converts but I can't find a Jewish 'campaign' to bring forth converts - how interesting! And from my reading, the Hindis are the ones least likely to accept conversion. So there seems to be a spectrum across the major faiths. If this is a misrepresentation let me know - I have a lot of windows open here doing research and screw ups are possible.

In the church that I like there's no requirement that anyone convert anyone else and it's kind of frowned upon, which is partly why I like it. If someone likes what they see, they can come and talk and participate - Buddhist, atheists, Jewish, Christian, Hindi, Muslim, or Wicca, I'd imagine. All they have to do is come naked with a bloody slaughtered goat.

Naw just kidding about the naked part.



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/11/08 03:44 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#237530 - 07/11/08 04:23 PM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: hogan_dawg]
Sans Logos Offline
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....ah shucks, i was getting ready to move there and join up

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#237540 - 07/11/08 05:59 PM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: Sans Logos]
hogan_dawg Offline
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Yeah naked could be fun - but they're not for everyone. Given their ability to move with the times, they're probably rightly criticized for being wishy washy and lacking in clear guidance. Seems to me that's kind of the trade off that happens. My wife can't stand it - she wants adherence to the text, for example. And a lot of times, I go there and wish "Oh come on with the discussion, just give me a clear direction for goodness sake!"

lol

_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#237555 - 07/11/08 07:35 PM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: hogan_dawg]
testingWaters Offline
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I really admire Andy taking the time to post what he did.

I want to add one key thing - in the Buddhism I practice, everything begins (and in some ways ends) with sitting meditation. Buddhism is quite the opposite of being a way of "thinking about life" but a way to find and sustain the world and ourselves as something other than what we *think*

There is no set of beliefs or codes that takes precedence or dogma over simply sitting on the cushion. Mostly we just work with our minds and we do so individually. In doing so we learn to know our minds and come to peace with how they work. The main precept, far and away, is that we must constantly work with ego, not to fight against it, because it is part of us, but to understand how it works and how it can alienate us and how it can make us suffer. My practice is a secular one, but even in the non-secular Buddhist practices, it is important to recognize that many deities are a way to talk about ego itself.

For example, in my practice there are a series of very bloody, very gory chants about destroying those who would pervert the dharma and the like, yet while they literally seem to be demons and ghouls, each represents ego.

My own practice grows largely out of a set of teachings by Chogyam Trungpa, the Tibetan Buddhist who emigrated to the US and founded Naropa. He built an organization called Shambhala out of these largely secular teachings that has been instrumental in my own healing. A quick note - he is a controversial figure and many people feel he was very destructive but most agree that his teachings are not tainted by some of the excesses of his personal life.

I give my very highest recommendation to his book: Shambhala: Sacred Path of the Warrior (http://www.amazon.com/Shambhala-Sacred-Warrior-Chogyam-Trungpa/dp/0877732647)



Edited by testingWaters (07/11/08 07:39 PM)

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#237566 - 07/11/08 08:15 PM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: testingWaters]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Originally Posted By: testingWaters
Buddhism is quite the opposite of being a way of "thinking about life" but a way to find and sustain the world and ourselves as something other than what we *think*


Very well put. I couldn't have put it better myself. \:\)

It's using our head to get OUT of our head, wouldn't you say? \:\)

Thank you for the reply, Testing. \:\)

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#237575 - 07/11/08 08:51 PM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: AndyJB2005]
testingWaters Offline
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Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
It's using our head to get OUT of our head, wouldn't you say?



Very much so, but with the admonition that our head is never, ever going away altogether and that *that* is the human condition, y' know? Hence we must work to have those moments of clarity and (dare I say) Truth. Because we can never wholly live in such a state - we can visit there and we can learn, but our head is a real persistent beast and it'll take years to come to terms with it, if we can at all.

best, TW


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#239974 - 07/24/08 10:19 AM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: AndyJB2005]
Sans Logos Offline
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andy this came across my path recently and i thought you would appreciate it:



_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#239977 - 07/24/08 11:11 AM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: Sans Logos]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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LOL I love that one. I've seen it on a t-shirt. LOL

Thanks for sharing it, Sans! \:\)

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#240068 - 07/24/08 10:35 PM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: AndyJB2005]
VN Offline
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Buddhist prayer about loss, which was shared in other group I am member of. I like it very much.

Buddhist prayer " Transcendence" -Roshi Halifax

May sorrow show me the way to compassion.
May I come to recognize the gift of my loved one's death by opening my ear of compassion.
May I realize grace in the midst of suffering.
May this experience in some way be a blessing for me.
May loving-kindness sustain me.
May love fill and heal my body and mind.
May I be peaceful and let go of expectations.
May I find peace and strength that I may use my resources to help others.
May I receive the love and compassion of others.
May all those who are grieving be released from their suffering.
May I offer love, knowing that I cannot control the course of life, suffering, or death.

Forgiveness:

May I let go of guilt and resentment.
May I forgive myself for mistakes made and things left undone.
May I forgive and be forgiven.
May I forgive myself for not meeting my loved ones' needs.
May I accept my human limitations with compassion.

Coming home:

May I be open to the true nature of life.
May I open to the unknown as I let go of the known.
May I offer gratitude to those around me.
May I be grateful for this life.


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#240448 - 07/26/08 07:43 PM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: AndyJB2005]
trb Offline
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Andy,

New to Malesurvivor and Buddhism but I really like your post and this entire thread.

Thanks,

_________________________
Hanging in there One Day at a Time
RB (trb)

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#241031 - 07/29/08 02:24 PM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: trb]
blueshift Offline
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Great cartoon sans!lol

I would just add that, although I understand all being said here is a part of Buddhism and is not religious, there is a fundamentalist, exoteric branch of Buddhism, Taoism, and Hinduism that pretty much mirrors fundamentalist Christianity in it's belief in a separate God, a heaven, a hell, and redemption from sin.

I don't know really if there is a heaven or hell in the religious Taoism I speak of, but it is still what I would call an exoteric religion which is quite apart and different from the philosophical Taoism that I like to study.

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#242510 - 08/05/08 02:50 PM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: VLinvictus]
kellygtx Offline
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I consider myself a Unitarian Universalist but have read a great deal about Sufism and find one of their spiritual leaders - Llewellyn Vaughn Lee - an amazing spiritual teacher. The link below is entitled "Welcoming the Beloved" and ends with a great line - "...if you are going to bet on a dream, bet on the best possible dream."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXWKpeoyd_g&feature=related

Namaste -

_________________________
I bid you Peace.

Kelly

The time is always NOW. Breath In. Breath Out. Move On.

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#253902 - 10/09/08 01:21 PM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: kellygtx]
petercorbett Offline
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Interesting, Buddhism.
From a "RETIRED" Catholic boy/man, I've been looking for a relgion that is not condeming me to hell (if there is a place), not condeming me for masturbating, not condeming me for wishing that my mother was dead, as a young boy, not condemig me for not forgiving my abusers, (but there all DEAD) anyway. A relgion that accepts me for what I've been/am. However I must say that the Catholic church did take me in to their orphanage/home and took very good care of me providing me with love, a home/family and protection from all and any abusers, for atleast 9 months of the year for 4 years. I had severed all communication lines to the man upstairs many years ago. I had to get this off my chest. As the Dali Lama preaches is love, and if a couple of millions/billions of Chineese are afraid of him, his message must be pretty powerful. Heal well all my friends/brothers.
Pete (Irishmoose)

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
A very humble alumni of the WOR Dahlonega, GA.
May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
Hope Springs, 2010.


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#254124 - 10/10/08 08:27 AM Re: Buddhism and God: What is This Relgion? [Re: petercorbett]
Four Winds Offline


Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 2
Loc: IL
Friendly Attitudes
http://www.hazelden.org/web/public/thought.view?catId=1902

Fill Your Time
http://www.greatday.com/

I am only one; but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; I will not refuse to do something I can do. --Helen Keller

Just Sharing a few Spiritual Thoughts that I began today with, hope they help,

Sincerely

Four Winds


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#254137 - 10/10/08 10:35 AM Re: Buddhism & God: What is This Religion? [Re: Four Winds]
ineffable Offline
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Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
In my belief (Buddhism), we kind of just say "I don't know, we can't physically prove he exists or doesn't exist, so why focus on it?" to the God vs. No God question. We feel it wastes time, energy, and distracts from doing the real, tangible help we can give to the world and to ourselves to debate something we can never logically prove.


Nice to see this topic revisited.
There is a quote from one of the teachers that might be relevant here & in other instances.

"Only don't know"

Is there a/one true God? Why did "it" happen? Does he/she love me?
I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno
I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno
I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno I dunno

Am I suffering over I dunno?
Am I causing you suffering over my "I dunno"?
Am I causing you suffering because you dunno & I need you to?
Am I suffering over suffering?

Only don't know.

No more & no less.

C as in clapping with one hand or chanting as we speak

_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


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#254159 - 10/10/08 01:20 PM Re: Buddhism & God: What is This Religion? [Re: ineffable]
petercorbett Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2452
Loc: TEXAS
Hi, FOUR WINDS. I checked out those web sites on your post.Nice words there.
Ineffable, yours makes sense too. Thanks.
Pete (Irishmoose)

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
A very humble alumni of the WOR Dahlonega, GA.
May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
Hope Springs, 2010.


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#254387 - 10/11/08 10:19 AM Re: Buddhism & God: What is This Religion? [Re: petercorbett]
Four Winds Offline


Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 2
Loc: IL
my pleasure,

peace,


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