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#236739 - 07/08/08 08:35 AM IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ?
jcf1957 Offline
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Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 192
Loc: North Of The 49th Parallel
Every where you turn these days being politically correct is an action that most people are tremendously proud of.
Even the words Rape and Sexual Abuse can have double meaning and diminished to something less than what it actually is. Unfortunately, when we dwell on being politically correct instead of morally correct we are inadvertently trashing our own ethics.

There are so many people in the world today that claim that they are religious. There are many kinds of religion in the world today some are based on a nice idea of how societies should live, and others are based on historical facts and eyewitness accounts referred to as>
_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

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#236768 - 07/08/08 12:02 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: jcf1957]
Sans Logos Offline
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Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
oy vey, here we go again!

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#236784 - 07/08/08 12:46 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: Sans Logos]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
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Depending on which version of the Ten Commandments one prescribes to, I actually only agree with about half of them.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#236851 - 07/08/08 08:42 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: BJK]
hogan_dawg Offline
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JCF1957 I don't get it.

You say political correctness "threatens to wipe out the very idea of morality." I won't agree or disagree. It's just too huge a topic to resolve on a bulletin board.

One burning question that hits me when I read your post is 'What precisely is the relation between your text and male survivors of sexual abuse?'

I don't see a clear relation.

Good luck, Dawg.



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/08/08 09:48 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#236933 - 07/09/08 08:19 AM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: hogan_dawg]
jcf1957 Offline
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I am not in the least surprised by many of the responses in this thread. Perhaps I should have expected worse. That being said; I have to respect everybody's freedom of speech.
Hogan; I will agree that ("Morality") is too huge a topic to cover in any bulletin board; particularly when everyone has their own personal preconceptions of what morality means to them.
People can argue blue in the face until the world comes to an end on morality issues. However; one fact remains, there will always be one separate distinction that sets today's modern definition of morality apart. God's Morality and Humanistic Morality.

Actually; morality does play a huge role with male survivors of sexual abuse. As Victims we are deeply ingrained in today's Rape Culture. Most of us would be appalled to think that "indirectly"
we are partly responsible for feeding today's Rape Culture even though as victims, our rape or sexual abuse affliction was no fault of our own. I would encourage you to read the following link.

http://www.mrcforchange.org/challenging_rape.html



Edited by jcf1957 (07/09/08 08:21 AM)
_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

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#236952 - 07/09/08 10:58 AM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: jcf1957]
BJK Offline
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Originally Posted By: jcf1957

People can argue blue in the face until the world comes to an end on morality issues. However; one fact remains, there will always be one separate distinction that sets today's modern definition of morality apart. God's Morality and Humanistic Morality.


For this statement to be true, you must first prove that God exists in some other fashion than in the preconceived notions of the men who created Him. Otherwise, there is only one definition of morality, and that is Humanistic Morality.

Those of us who do not believe in the Bible, and those of us who feel that the Bible is an intolerant message of amorality, take offense to such a notion that God's Morality could, in any way, be superior to the notions of morality that we have discovered on our own. For many of us, overcoming the fallacy that morality comes from some kind of a higher power was an essential part of recovery.

Just because your understanding of "God's Morality" is based upon prehistoric mythology doesn't make it superior, or any different, than those of us who base our morality on good ol' fashioned common sense.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#236956 - 07/09/08 11:14 AM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: BJK]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Registered: 11/14/06
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Isn't God's morality intrinsically tied to humanistic morality? Since God seemingly never speaks for Himself (depending who you feel wrote the Bible), it's up to man, or humanity, to decide what He is moralistically wanting and meaning. There's a bias in everything someone says -- which is why in college papers, you rarely can use YOUR thoughts. \:\)

Peace and love. \:\)

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#236965 - 07/09/08 12:03 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: AndyJB2005]
MarkK Offline
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Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
it's up to man, or humanity, to decide what He is moralistically wanting and meaning

is that the far-left or far-right that should decide?

;\)


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#236967 - 07/09/08 12:09 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: MarkK]
BJK Offline
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Originally Posted By: MarkK
Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
it's up to man, or humanity, to decide what He is moralistically wanting and meaning

is that the far-left or far-right that should decide?

;\)


Neither. Morality isn't "decided", rather, it lies in the eye of the beholder.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#236968 - 07/09/08 12:33 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: BJK]
jcf1957 Offline
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[/quote]

Just because your understanding of "God's Morality" is based upon prehistoric mythology doesn't make it superior, or any different, than those of us who base our morality on good ol' fashioned common sense.

Bryan [/quote]

God's Morality Based Upon Prehistoric Mythology ?

Wow; Have I missed something ? This is a lame ignoramus statement if I ever heard one. Typical answer for an atheist.

_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

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#236969 - 07/09/08 12:35 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: jcf1957]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
...and then, subtlely just flew right out the window...


CD


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#236972 - 07/09/08 12:43 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: CDavid]
jcf1957 Offline
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Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 192
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Analyzing subtleties can often lead to ironies

_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

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#236973 - 07/09/08 12:45 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: jcf1957]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
or, paradoxes...hmmm?


CD


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#236974 - 07/09/08 12:50 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: CDavid]
jcf1957 Offline
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Good One David; I like your thinking. Can't we say that God is a Paradox for many ?

_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

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#236976 - 07/09/08 12:52 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: jcf1957]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
Certainly...I agree, absolutely.


CD


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#236981 - 07/09/08 01:06 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: jcf1957]
BJK Offline
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Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: jcf1957


God's Morality Based Upon Prehistoric Mythology ?

Wow; Have I missed something ? This is a lame ignoramus statement if I ever heard one. Typical answer for an atheist.


Well, I never called you "lame" or an "ignoramus", but lets shed light on the definition of the term "myth":

"a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, esp. one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature."



Edited by BJK (07/09/08 01:06 PM)
_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#236983 - 07/09/08 01:09 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: CDavid]
Dewey2k Offline
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
A reminder:

Keep this thread in the realm of philosophical discussion, which is productive and thought-provoking, and out of the realm of personal insults, which is destructive and not allowed on this site.

D2K for the ModTeam


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#236985 - 07/09/08 01:10 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: BJK]
jcf1957 Offline
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Posts: 192
Loc: North Of The 49th Parallel
I never called you lame or ignoramus.

I said your statement was.

_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

Top
#236986 - 07/09/08 01:12 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: jcf1957]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: jcf1957
I never called you lame or ignoramus.

I said your statement was.



Which is still a personal attack.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#236990 - 07/09/08 01:18 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: BJK]
jcf1957 Offline
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Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 192
Loc: North Of The 49th Parallel
It takes a man to apologize and will do just that sincerely.

I dug the first hole in this thread and I would rather it come to a close.

_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

Top
#236995 - 07/09/08 01:26 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: BJK]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
I don't think people are so stupid that relabeling things will make wrong right or right wrong or make morality less defined. If someone thinks all it takes to make a hurtful action OK is to couch it in a euphemism, it's that person's defective judgment that is to blame not the language he misuses.

_________________________
My Story
My Art

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#236996 - 07/09/08 01:34 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: jcf1957]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
No worries.

But please, take some consideration to those of us who do not feel that sprituality and morality have any relationship, for in pushing your spirituality's view on morality, you are disrecpecting my view on morality.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#237005 - 07/09/08 02:17 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: BJK]
jcf1957 Offline
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Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 192
Loc: North Of The 49th Parallel
Originally Posted By: BJK
No worries.

But please, take some consideration to those of us who do not feel that sprituality and morality have any relationship, for in pushing your spirituality's view on morality, you are disrecpecting my view on morality.

Bryan


Now that was a classic example of a sarcastic remark if I ever heard one. What about ("MY") view on Morality and Spirituality.
In your mind it amounts to nothing.
Now you insulted me by throwing my apology back in my face.
Suffering shit...this is a F....ing joke.



Edited by jcf1957 (07/09/08 02:35 PM)
_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

Top
#237010 - 07/09/08 02:43 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: BJK]
VLinvictus Offline
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Registered: 12/05/07
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Loc: NY
"God's morality" is essentially an empty and meaningless statement because it means different things to different people. Is God's morality the laws in the Torah? In the Gospels? In the Qur'an? Is God's morality that articulated by Orthodox or Reform Jews? Catholics or Protestants? Sunnis or Shias?

The statement that "God's morality is founded on prehistoric myth" is, unfortunately, neither lame nor ignorant but the plain truth. Perhaps the "prehistoric" part can be questioned (since the Tanakh, the New Testament, and the Qur'an are themselves historical documents), but the point remains that anyone who claims to be talking about "God's morality" is talking about his or her belief about the moral teachings contained in a given religion's texts and traditions. The truth and authority of said religion, however, cannot be argued from any rational or evidence-based point of view -- one cannot prove which religion (if any) is the One True Faith -- and thus the adoption of a given religion is based on personal subjective faith experiences and preferences.

In a world in which there are many different religious systems of morality and in which we claim for each individual the right and freedom of religion and conscience, there must needs be a distinction between personal and public morality. There must of necessity be a distinction between the moral principles by which a given individual will choose to live and by which a pluralistic democratic society is to govern itself.

Originally Posted By: jcf1957

The Ten Commandments are not multiple choice and they are not “the Ten suggestions” They are a clear line between right and wrong so that all people could live together in peace and harmony under God.


Not quite. They are the general categories, chapter headings if you will, of the terms of the covenant between YHWH and Israel. There are an additional 603 commandments that together with the "Ten Utterances" or "Ten Statements" (as they are called in Hebrew) form the totality of the religious constitution of the Jewish people. The commandments are not a universal statement line between right and wrong: they are the rules that those to whom they are given are to obey in exhange for God's blessing and protection. That the first four are cultic and refer specifically to the covenantal relationship between YHWH and Israel is evidence of this.

Moreover, the worship of gods other than YHWH (together with idols), the taking of YHWH's name in vain, and profaning the Sabbath are specifically guaranteed by the US Constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and honoring parents is totally unenforceable in law.

Quote:
For example, below you can see sins that are outlined in most religions and then you will see the politically correct version of making it ok to commit these offenses.

• Pride: This is now referred to as self-esteem


Define "pride." If you consult any dictionary, you'll find several definitions. "Haughtiness, arrogance, and self-importance" is a far cry from "the sense of one's personal worth and dignity."

Victims of CSA have had our personal worth and dignity tarnished if not destroyed by our perps. We deserve to regain it.

Quote:
• Lust: Now referred to as an uncontrollable instinct


So?

Quote:
• Adultery: These indiscretions are commonly referred to as a “cry for help in order to save marriages”


Commonly? By whom? Also, what is adultery? In the Biblical worldview, adultery was sex between a married woman and man other than her husband.

Quote:
• The murder of children: This has been made a “choice” and we call it abortion


This is not a question of political correctness but of philosophical differences on the nature of human life and its inception. Is life to be described functionally or ontologically? In the Jewish religion, a fetus is not a child nor is abortion murder. It is forbidden, however, except when the life or health of the mother is threatened in which case it is mandatory -- so even in the realm of "God's morality" things are not so neatly cut and dried. No one is in favor of the killing of children -- where we disagree is on when human life begins and where the rights of a woman end.

Quote:
Mankind in this world today has decided that all of the good morals that were once placed here by our creator in which all of our ancestors lived by for centuries, should be renamed for one simple reason…that future societies will not link their everyday practices to specific sins


OK:
1.) All of our ancestors have lived for centuries under different morals placed here by different conceptions of creators.
2.) It is not the place of a secular pluralistic and democratic society to dictate what is or is not "sin." That's for religions to decide.

Quote:
You see, if all these excuses are made for our sinful behavior future societies will never understand that what they are doing is wrong.


The way history works, they will eventually find out of they are in fact "wrong." The only real "morality" at work in human societies is "that which works." Moral principles that serve to preserve order and stability are validated by history; those that do not eventually reveal themselves.

Quote:
This world will grow more selfish, self absorbed and murderous than we can even imagine. These commandments were set in place so that every soul on Earth could enjoy their life. Unfortunately too many people believe vainly that they should do whatever makes them happy even when it is wrong and hurts all those around them.


Define "wrong."

Quote:
So the next time you are faced with a choice in your path to be either politically correct or morally correct I hope for your sake and for the sake of every child growing up in today’s world, that you will choose to stand up for what you believe in.


What happens if one's moral beliefs and the so-called "politically correct" choice coincide?

Quote:
The value of free speech was designed to help protect a person’s moral values, if you choose only to say what does not offend others then you are turning your back on this birth right.


Um, no. The freedom of speech was designed because it was determined that each human being has the natural right and freedom to express his ideas and that no government has the authority to deprive him of that right.

Quote:
We should not continue to make excuses for our transgressions. Remember, that although you make a piece of dog crap and polish it , dip it in gold and then polish it some more it will still be that piece of dog crap. It is time we take responsibility for our actions and stop trying to find ways to get away with things that we know are wrong.


There you go again, talking about some universal determination of "right" and "wrong." You may believe there is one; I do, too. Ours are likely very different, so how do we get along?

The social contract. We recognize that each person has a set of rights that go along simply with being human. We can say what we want, think what we want, believe what we want, and do what we want so long as we do not harm others. We each forfeit our natural freedom to harm others in exchange for the liberty that we ourselves will not be harmed, and we institute governments to uphold and protect this arrangement. Within the sphere of our rights and that liberty, we are sovereign. If you see a person killing or raping or stealing or what-have-you, then you have the right and indeed the obligation to intervene. If no one is being harmed or if no one's rights are being violated by a person's choices -- regardless of how "politically correct" they be -- mind your own business. Tend to your own garden. Take the beam out of your own eye before trying to remove the speck from your neighbor's, and so forth.

That is the key to the health and stability of the body politic.

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#237012 - 07/09/08 02:50 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: jcf1957]
VLinvictus Offline
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Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: jcf1957
What about ("MY") view on Morality and Spirituality.
In your mind it amounts to nothing.


So what? No one is obligated to agree with your views on morality or spirituality or to approve of them, but I for one will defend to the death your right to hold, express, and live by them.

You are free to say whatever you like (as far as this forum's moderators allow), but that freedom is two-way street. If one sets out with a rather broad brush painting pretty much everyone who disagrees with him as a politically correct slave to sin and vice, one ought to expect a less than appreciative response and rightly so.

BJK's response was calm, measured and respectful.

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#237014 - 07/09/08 02:54 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: VLinvictus]
jcf1957 Offline
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Well,well,well; I'm going to give you a shinny badge trophy for your quip. Like the rest of some of you here you completely avoided giving your finest opinions to the suggested link

http://www.mrcforchange.org/challenging_rape.html




Edited by jcf1957 (07/09/08 02:56 PM)
_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

Top
#237017 - 07/09/08 03:06 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: jcf1957]
VLinvictus Offline
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Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: jcf1957
Well,well,well; I'm going to give you a shinny badge trophy for your quip. Like the rest of some of you here you completely avoided giving your finest opinions to the suggested link

http://www.mrcforchange.org/challenging_rape.html


I for one agree with the essay. The recognition of the infinite worth and sovereign dignity of all human beings -- male and female -- is essential to the proper enforcement of the social contract. The dehumanization and objectification of others is the root of all social evil: capitalists dehumanize and objectify workers, men dehumanize and objectify women, whites dehumanize and objectify blacks, and so forth. All such dehumanization and objectification reinforces the power imbalances that keep the human race enslaved.

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#237022 - 07/09/08 03:29 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: jcf1957]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: jcf1957
Originally Posted By: BJK
No worries.

But please, take some consideration to those of us who do not feel that sprituality and morality have any relationship, for in pushing your spirituality's view on morality, you are disrecpecting my view on morality.

Bryan


Now that was a classic example of a sarcastic remark if I ever heard one. What about ("MY") view on Morality and Spirituality.
In your mind it amounts to nothing.
Now you insulted me by throwing my apology back in my face.
Suffering shit...this is a F....ing joke.


That's not even remotely the case. Your initial post involved dictating morality to others, and that's not acceptable to me.



Edited by BJK (07/09/08 03:40 PM)
_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#237026 - 07/09/08 03:43 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: VLinvictus]
jcf1957 Offline
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Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 192
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So what; Likewise; when your views on morality or spirituality or to approve of them, but I for one will defend to the death your right to live by them uphold, express, and live by them.

As an Atheistic creature you are free to say whatever you like (as far as this forum's moderators allow) Indeed that freedom is a two way street. And If you should set out and paint a broad painting pretty much that everyone disagrees with as morally correct slave to sin and vice, you or anybody else ought to expect a less than appreciative response and rightly so !

BJK's response was beligerant measured and disrespectful



Edited by jcf1957 (07/09/08 03:46 PM)
_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

Top
#237031 - 07/09/08 03:51 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: jcf1957]
BJK Offline
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Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: jcf1957
So what; Likewise; when your views on morality or spirituality or to approve of them, but I for one will defend to the death your right to live by them uphold, express, and live by them.

As an Atheistic creature you are free to say whatever you like (as far as this forum's moderators allow) Indeed that freedom is a two way street. And If you should set out and paint a broad painting pretty much that everyone disagrees with as morally correct slave to sin and vice, you or anybody else ought to expect a less than appreciative response and rightly so !

BJK's response was beligerant measured and disrespectful


I have not made an attempt to inhibit you from expressing yourself freely on these boards. Quite the contrary, I am posting here in an attempt to pursue discussion. However, you must realize that your interpretation of morality blatantly tells me that I have no morality. I can not accept that without speaking out, especially on these boards, because such a standard was tantamount to the perpetuation of my abuse.

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#237033 - 07/09/08 03:58 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: BJK]
jcf1957 Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 192
Loc: North Of The 49th Parallel
Bring it on friend. Spiritually and Morality is a War neither you or I can possible win. Say what you will. Humanistic babbling amounts to naught. God has the final say no matter how much your interested in rebuking that a Supreme Being exist and in charge of the course of every primitive human life.



Edited by jcf1957 (07/09/08 03:59 PM)
_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

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#237035 - 07/09/08 04:14 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: jcf1957]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: jcf1957
Bring it on friend. Spiritually and Morality is a War neither you or I can possible win. Say what you will. Humanistic babbling amounts to naught. God has the final say no matter how much your interested in rebuking that a Supreme Being exist and in charge of the course of every primitive human life.


Well, until God gives us his final say, all I ask is that you be a little more respectful of those who you degrade by forcing your morality on others.

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#237037 - 07/09/08 04:17 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: jcf1957]
jcf1957 Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 192
Loc: North Of The 49th Parallel
Hey; I got days, months, years, to argue any negative view that offends my rational on anything that opposes theological reasoning.
Unless a Moderator feels compelled to shut this thread down I'm in for the long term.

_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

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#237039 - 07/09/08 04:26 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: BJK]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
This thread is degenerating into personal attacks and that is not conducive to the constructive discussion of principles and beliefs. If a respectful tone can not be maintained by everyone involved in this thread, it will be pulled.


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#237040 - 07/09/08 04:26 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: jcf1957]
jcf1957 Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 192
Loc: North Of The 49th Parallel
I'll be away for a while but I'll challenge anything you guys want to throw at me. I am adamant in my resolve.

_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

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#237044 - 07/09/08 04:30 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: jcf1957]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
Just curious...

What resolve is that? What is the aim of this thread, and what connection does it have to the link you have posted?


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#237047 - 07/09/08 04:37 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: jcf1957]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: jcf1957
Hey; I got days, months, years, to argue any negative view that offends my rational on anything that opposes theological reasoning.
Unless a Moderator feels compelled to shut this thread down I'm in for the long term.


Well....you could start by explaining how your view on morality is better than anyone else's. How, for instance, is it immoral that I choose to not believe in your God?

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#237048 - 07/09/08 04:38 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: jcf1957]
MemoryVault Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 693
Loc: NJ
I drafted about four posts on this thread at different times over the last day or two, and (correctly) backed off before I hit Submit. I was angry, or thought I had something brilliant to say, or just wanted to get into the discussion, or wanted to dazzle everyone with how right I was. (Yeah, right!)

But whatever I had to say had nothing to do with the reason I am here, which is to get and give support as we all work together to cope with what happened in our past and the things we're going through now.

I am a humanist -- And when the fog of my anger and confusion clears, that means that I respect, love, and even worship the resiliance, courage, and strength of every person here, though it seems to me that we all live in our own worlds. Some of those worlds have a god; some don't.

I love the times when we reach across the barriers that separate us and are just there for each other.

And I worry about the threads that divide us. Not the ones where we offer loving challenges and invitations to grow, but the ones where we want to be right. I'm not immune to that--not by a long shot.

Of course spirituality can be a vital part of healing, but I want to ask:
Is the argument...the fight over what YOU said, and what HE said, and did you understand my point?...is that argument just a distraction? We've all got our positions on politics and religion pretty solidified by now--much easier to read off our own talking points than to go into the scarier stuff:

"I'm scared."
"I believe in God, but I feel really abandoned right now."
"I don't believe in God, but I need some source of hope."


What are the real questions you're struggling with? How can we help?

David



Edited by MemoryVault (07/09/08 04:40 PM)

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#237052 - 07/09/08 04:51 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: BJK]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
It's my opinion that most monotheistic religion's foundations are based on morality, but not self-morality.

Instead of focusing on the self and their relationship with God, instead of changing themselves to lead a better and more right (to them) life, some of them feel they need to change everyone around *them* to *their* way. They paint whole lots of people with the same brush calling them sinners so they don't have to change themselves to feel right (to them), but it is *others* that should change.

They feel it's their "duty" to "convert" others -- which means shouting it from the rooftops. And in this modern day, people are less willing to take faith at face value anymore, so some of them are feeling threatened -- and what does a cornered animal do? They attack!

I feel this is why so many are increasing their damnation speech and bringing out the things I certainly don't like about Christianity, and that I don't think Jesus would've liked either.

I think Jesus would denounce his 21st century church. It's no longer about loving Him and each other, it's about weeding out the sinners and throwing them in the pit.

Morality is such a objective thing. To me, using God's name to blast people is immoral and disrespectful to God (if there is one) and to Christians. \:\)

I think using a religion to separate instead of bring together is immoral.

People's faith is such a personal thing, and I don't think anyone should tamper with others' lives to make themselves feel more rightious.

I find when I want to convince someone of something, it is always best to lead by example, not by force. \:\)

Love and Peace \:\)



_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#237053 - 07/09/08 04:55 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: MemoryVault]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
David,

Somewhere, someone is lurking on this site for teh first time struggling with the option of whether or not to "break the secret". As they peruse this forum, they may come across a "sprituality" thread where someone is spreading the myth that a lack of a belief in a higher power means that said person does not have any concept on the notion of morality. That may chase that person away or worse.

I am committed to stopping abuse in all of its forms, and I can't help at this point but to come out and say that spreading the above preconceived notion is another example of abuse.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#237054 - 07/09/08 04:57 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: BJK]
jcf1957 Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 192
Loc: North Of The 49th Parallel
Well BJK; it was you who insinuated that my view was better than anybody else. Your choice not to believe in God is your problem, Is it necessary for me to respect that ? I'm truly sorry; I'd like to say I can but; then I would be denouncing that there is any such existence of God. Why is it you fail to contemplate that there are numerous people on the M.S. site that do believe in God.
Do you deride them because they do. If you want to disown the fact that God exist then do you think everybody should accept your mind-frame ? Is it an assault to you that people here have a devotion toward God ? I have a difficult time trying to figure out the Moderators who sit on this panel. Not unlike shrinks, Moderators here are stereotypyed in their spiritual thinking when it comes to trust issues. That is the fact of the matter. trust factors in a big role in all this.

_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

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#237056 - 07/09/08 05:02 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: BJK]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
The purpose of the spirituality forum is not to promote any one religion or spirituality over another. All members are to be respectful of others beliefs and realize that their particular beliefs are not necessarily the beliefs of others, and no person's beliefs trump the beliefs of another here on this site. This place is neutral ground. Please treat others and their beliefs with the same respect you wish to receive for yourself and your beliefs in return.


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#237058 - 07/09/08 05:07 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: jcf1957]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I don't see being non-Christian as a "problem," as you said, but a variation on being human.

I think not respecting someone because they don't believe in God is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. In the Bible, Jesus respected prostitutes and all kinds of people that in his day were degenerates. He gave love unconditional. I see that very little from Christians nowadays, or indeed any faith. \:\( Atheist included.

While there are many here that do believe in God, I stress that Christianity isn't the defining point of being normal here ...and non-believers aren't the "fringe."

We're all in this together. Let's act like it! \:\)

Peace and Love \:\)

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#237067 - 07/09/08 06:34 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: jcf1957]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: jcf1957
Well BJK; it was you who insinuated that my view was better than anybody else.


Well...the title of your thread is "IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED?", and you based your entire thesis on the Ten Commandments. That can only lead to one conclusion.

Quote:
Your choice not to believe in God is your problem, Is it necessary for me to respect that ? I'm truly sorry; I'd like to say I can but; then I would be denouncing that there is any such existence of God.


That's quite a leap of logic. You're saying that by respecting the fact that I don't believe in God, you are submitting there is no God? Quite to the contrary, most Christians I engage in theological discussion are quite accepting of my atheism. In fact, many claim that their very acceptance of my atheism is a central part of their faith. Why can't you accept it? I'd be willing to wager it is for the same reason why it took me decades to come to terms with my own atheism.

Quote:
Why is it you fail to contemplate that there are numerous people on the M.S. site that do believe in God.


I don't fail to contemplate that. In fact, I embrace it.

Quote:
Do you deride them because they do.


Nope. I only object when someone claims that atheism is immoral as a result of their religious beliefs.

Quote:
If you want to disown the fact that God exist then do you think everybody should accept your mind-frame ?


Absolutely not. I only expect people to understand that morality does not come from God, for without that understanding, I am inferior.

Quote:
Is it an assault to you that people here have a devotion toward God ?


Nope. It is only an assault to me when people say that I have no morality because I have no God.

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#237068 - 07/09/08 06:38 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: Dewey2k]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: Dewey2k
The purpose of the spirituality forum is not to promote any one religion or spirituality over another. All members are to be respectful of others beliefs and realize that their particular beliefs are not necessarily the beliefs of others, and no person's beliefs trump the beliefs of another here on this site. This place is neutral ground. Please treat others and their beliefs with the same respect you wish to receive for yourself and your beliefs in return.


I have been on the defensive this entire thread, and I have treated jcf1957 with the utmost of respect. In return, I am told I am not an equal because my atheism defies the Ten Commandments. This is truly mind boggling to me. I truly feel for the millions of men and women across the world who agree with me but are afraid to speak out because of the shame they feel for their own lack of faith. I could not be having this discussion today had I not spent the majority of the last year working on my self esteem...learning to accept myself for who I am dispite the fact that I refuse to believe in sky fairies.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#237070 - 07/09/08 07:08 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: BJK]
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
BJK, my comments were aimed at all participants, not you or anyone else in particular. If you felt that way, it was not my intention; I was trying to remind everyone exactly what the aim of the forum is.


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#237084 - 07/09/08 07:41 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: AndyJB2005]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
We're all in this together. Let's act like it! \:\)

Peace and Love \:\)


I like your attitude! \:\)

_________________________
Eddie

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#237088 - 07/09/08 07:48 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: AndyJB2005]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
I think not respecting someone because they don't believe in God is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. In the Bible, Jesus respected prostitutes and all kinds of people that in his day were degenerates. He gave love unconditional. I see that very little from Christians nowadays, or indeed any faith. \:\( Atheist included.

While there are many here that do believe in God, I stress that Christianity isn't the defining point of being normal here ...and non-believers aren't the "fringe."


I too like the way you think, Andy. Thank-you for that.

Let's not forget that Christ was put to death by the most religious and moral people of his time...

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#237092 - 07/09/08 07:56 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: WalkingSouth]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Brian if spiritual matters upset you so, and you don't believe in God, what the hell are you doing picking fights in a Spirituality section of the board?

Ignore the section if you don't like it, fuck.

Ask the Admins to make a section just for you called 'Atheism', cause now you're actually stalking this section of the board for the sole purpose of finding threads that upset you and then trashing the beliefs of the people who actually believe in matters spiritual.

Edited by ModTeam to remove personal attack.



Edited by ModTeam (07/09/08 08:09 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#237096 - 07/09/08 08:03 PM Re: IS MORAL CORRECTNESS OUTDATED ? [Re: hogan_dawg]
ModTeam Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 690
Time to bring this one in for a landing.

Eddie, aka EGL
For the ModTeam

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Private messages sent to this account are checked irregularly due to personnel and time constraints. Please send messages to one of the moderators for the forum that is concerned by user name, or if there is no named moderator, send a PM to any moderator.

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