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#238701 - 07/17/08 08:13 PM Re: Help, my husband wants to runaway [Re: Junefriday]
LittleMiss Offline


Registered: 07/02/08
Posts: 66
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Junefriday
He believes that if we were truly meant to be, our relationship wouldn't require work.


Word for word, exactly what my husband says. EXACTLY.

_________________________
LittleMiss

The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep.

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#238754 - 07/18/08 10:29 AM Re: Help, my husband wants to runaway [Re: LittleMiss]
An Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/24/04
Posts: 151
Loc: usa
Gals , I don't think my response here may be popular, in fact, I'm going to cut and paste it first to my drive and let it sit a day- i'm that apprehensive about saying it the right way.

when i was in the midst of a relationship with my bf for several years, i felt exactly what you did. The situation was slightly different in that he told me almost immediately - I was going to say our second date but it wasn't a date in the normal sense of the word. Soon after I first in person date (we met online) he did his first disassociation , stopped the relationship that had the most idyllic start. I was puzzled as hell at the time. He recontacted me after two months and said that if I was willing to give him the opportunity he wanted to explain.
with a great deal of confused cautious inside, I did want some understanding and so we met- it was an appointment almost rather than a date. He told me. I learned later from Mike's book the biggest favor I could of given him was to keep the relationship from becoming sexual at that point. It sounds paradoxical and would have been a trick, but in retrospect I totally see why.

ONce sex is brought into it, trust can't be for them. It's what the guys keep saying here using other words, but it's the core issue. It's a "fired together, wired together" exp1) the abuse was the first experience of sex- held all the power of first experience /impression of sex (how many of us don't remember "our first" ?- any first expression of an experience attached to an emotion is a more powerful imprinted experience whether it's negative or experience- if we look at our childhood impressions/experiences, having nothing to do with sex,it'll occure. Furthermore the research has become cleare and clearer with all forms of abuse- it's particular lasting damage is correlated with the time of vulnerability in the developmental process. It usually occurs for these guys at a particularly sensitive /vulnerable point in their development, one of the most known developmental in the field names the stages most of these guys csa occurs have come after the Learning Basic Trust vs Basic Mistrust phase (Hope)- so they'd developed the ability to trust- the very core developmental acheivement the perp takes advantage of- so what happens is they've now learned the most traumatic lesson- THEY CAN'T TRUST THEIR OWN TRUSTING-thus EXACTLY BECAUSE YOU HAVE BECOME A WOMAN THEY CAN TRUST, YOU BECOME A SCREAMING SENSE OF DANGER THE CLOSER THEY GET- look at what happened in everyone of your experiences- Mike Lew explains that the fact that this comes up exactly after having gotten closer naturally (for the survivor) is when it will occur the strongest- thus after the idyllic period of coupling is when disassociation is seemingly necessary for them- it feels like the only way they can survive- when they see this pattern in themselves or experience, they are truly more perplexed and disturbed by it than the partner yet it seems impossible within them to change- as my BF put it once "i'm a man, I should be stronger than these, I should as a man be strong, and nothing makes them feel more powerless at that point than their inability to "do" the relationship that they desperately want and need because they need to trust.
Next comes the stages during as the ones where they are emerging from Trust/ Mistrust development (and now the rug has pulled out of their foundation of learning- Trust vs Mistrust IS the initial primary developmental stage established or not w/ the primary caregiver (later this may also explain the stages in recovery where anger at the unprotective parent/parents comes up - usually mom, sometimes dad depending who the greatest emotional attachment/trust of , as it's often mom, now for you as wife//gf you also get to experience the "transference" of that again.


Back to the next stages and hopefully you'll see the damage these stages would have incurred as a result of the abuse because at this point, that development starts occuring on the negative side-
Stage 2 is Learning Autonomy vs Shame when sexuality and conscience normally develop- have you ever heard of a single male survivor not go through a massive sense of shame & sense that they may have been to blame - during their recovery process as they initially remember more and more, remember usually their perps either overt or insidious messages to them that they are equally responsible for their abuse, a message you hear them in these boards much in the process of attempting to undo and massively supporting one another in relearning that developmental stage. Again on top of it, sexuality and consciousness occur in this stage- again the role of husband/male in GF/BF relationship and society's taught roles about that/ and sexual relationship with you. It's a bomb for them in an emotional and functional sense. The black and white come into it because that's the nature of developmental lessons. Grey isn't developed later, but they're still stuck now in those developmental stages because of what happened. thus the "all or nothing" behaviors you see. when they feel they can't do a all of the relationship "ideallY" they jump into that mode of feeling totally "worthless, don't deserve you who obviously DO seem able to master relationship they're so inept at" so the answer is to run- it's primal as humans for all of to bring ourselves out of states of discomfort and it's resolved one way or another- this strand is the exact example of all the partners needing to do that within themselves- come to some conclusion about the relationship and the guys alternating states of dissassiontion and seeming changing personalities - their way of dealing with their own confusion, further lead to that limbo or unresolution for you - which we as partners are now desperately trying to resolve within ourselves, we want our confusion to come to an end just as they want theirs too, they run because their development hasn't followed the progression of ours where we have learned confidence in acheivement of the positive ends of those same developmental stages.
The next stage for them- Learning Initiative vs Guilt - where they development a sense of self-worth through development of skills- and in sense they feel the skill they've developed cemented in at that point is as a victim- they're doing all they can to survive emotionally and sometimes even in terms of getting the custodial care they need if the perp is in that primary role of provider or even the bestower of privelige- their need to feel able at this point is strong, esp again because of the deficits in the earlier stage, the perps grooming and playing friend as well as perp meets that need, all the moreso when it's not met in the other aspects of their life.
The next normal stage of dev.is Identity vs Role Confusion- wherein we tries integrating many roles (child, sibling, student, athlete,
worker) into a self-image under role model and peer pressure.
For the survivor , that ability to compartmentalize the conflicts in their self concept this point is often the end developed again- the Confusion that continues throughout their development and adulthood - the confusion again both the men and you as partners speak of above.
Last stage before adulthood is Learning Intimacy vs Isolation- you will here again and again on the men's board the resorting to Isolation as an adult, the feelings of Isolation as a child, the sense of Isolation again usually deliberating cultured by the perps grooming - is the stage where we learn to make a commitment to another, whether parent, spouse or partner. They've already learned the lessons of making a commitment of trust betrayed, including a sense of betrayal from their own body which by nature is experiencing physical pleasure of the positive sexual response by the body- thus pleasure literally becomes connected with distrust of it- again kicking into play when their relationships with you is a positive experience.

HOW MUCH MORE CAN THEY BE SETUP TO REACT EXACTLY AS THEY ARE- ALTHOUGH IT SEEMS IRRATIONAL TO THOSE OF US WHO HAD AT LEAST ELEMENTS OF POSITIVE development due to our opportunites through childhood for them.

Thus, what's before them now to heal is literally to go through the relearning of each of these stages- we had roughly 20 yrs to do that - and we had the advantage of not having to first UNLEARN the prior learnings - which were literally wired together in our brains. Think of any habit we've had most of our lives and the difference in the rate of relearning the new behavior relative to just learning something entirely new (e.g. smoking vs. learning a new language).

What's truly amazing is that they are functioning as well as they are. What's amazing is their courage in healing to undergoing stripping themselves of all they new and tolerating the sense of total loss of prior self and fearing if the not who they were, how can they possibly be who they want to be, they haven't a clue how, think of foundations of a house, all learning is normally built upon prior learning, another known fact in all forms of learning theory- as you age you'll experience the seeming phenomen of remembering something like a phone number of a friend (again an emotional response has to be linked to learn something- even if that connection is the emotion of pleasing another, a parent, a teacher, getting social approval from peers and the world at large.

The have to first wipe out all they knew and trusting you is the beginning of that, but uncomfortable, like all learning it comes in increments, therapy is certainly a huge factor in the cognitive parts of this relearning, the men on this board provide the emotional support needed, we do too we feel and wonder why that seems to mean so much less- it's not because of us at partners but because we;re linked to all of the above- beginning to trust us- a HUGE accomplishment on their part and testimony to our trustworthiness (in contrast to their sense of untrustworthiness because of the past- thus they dont'"deserve" us and think they're doing more service to us by leaving so we can get who we deserve in our lives- I see it as a selfless, self sacrificial drive on their part and one in which in their system they're attempting to take responsible for themselves and feel the only thing worse than them having been brought to who they think they are, would be to bring you down there with them. They fear they're gonna be responsible too for your deterioration as they've experienced there's
So... these time of self doubt for them when they're trying to transition and reverse what they learned at each stage, seem absolutely Overwhelming, another thing you'll see in profound ways on their boards. To me their boards are the greatest gift we can be given and the men who try to respond here to are heros in my book. they want us to understand, they're both discovering their own secrets that were within themselves- imagine the fright of discovering the memories within, wondering how much more that is awful is not known within them.

so the relationship is a trigger for all of it. the courage taken to tackle all this and the recognition of that is one of the prime levels of support we can give them, Mike Lew also is clear that the best thing we can do is model self care. And when the relationship becomes abusive- whether verbally and/or literally the physical dangers to us when they are acting out and sometimes having sex with others as they do with others- another intolerable behavior they see themselves doing when they're developing the very ethics and becoming aware of their behaviors and more and more attached to you and sensitive to their own sense of betrayal and guilt. Way to resolve it in their stages of ethical incongruende- do something, anything to stop the sexual relationship with us, distance , leave , try like hell to push you away.

Im gonna go ahead and post this - i'm sorry for the length but their was no other way to explain it. By career up to now has been in Human development and particularly Child Develpment. I'm in the final stages of becoming a T now = my understanding of development is a HUGE gift in that. and is something that if lacking in a T , they too are trying to do it without resources they need, thus sometimes the 'firing" or just stating to the client that they're stuck , not trying hard enough (when they're trying so hard in every cell of their body)

Ok if you're inclined - partners or guys, let me know if any of this makes sense.
oh lastly, when the guys tell you they've so carefully studied others behaviors and often implemented them in their actions- thus their loving behaviors initially with you while feeling like fakes inside- it's their longing to feel "normal", wanting to be that person, and then feeling they've failed because they're trying to do it with only the resources that were so misaligned, so screwed up as a result of the csa at their prime vulnerability stages of development.

ok done!


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#238762 - 07/18/08 11:18 AM Re: Help, my husband wants to runaway [Re: An]
cbfull Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Ohio
Wow, very insightful and quite impressive. Thanks for the glimpses of what I have to look forward to as I take up reading Mike Lew's book again. The first two chapters described my phsychological makeup so precisely that I couldn't go any further. I was in a bit of a state of shock.

For what it's worth, I felt the need to flee very early in my relationship with my partner, and break it off. (btw, I don't think gay relationships need to be treated so differently than straight, the basic emotions are all the same). I'm glad I did it then, even though he was hurt terribly by it. I knew he was a great one, I was literally in the bathroom sick after I watched him leave, and I didn't care how sick I was I just really felt the pain and without resistance.

A few months later I realized that if I wanted to feel any sense of sanity in the relationship I had to tell him what I need to feel that I can go into a relationship, thus disclosing my major issues to him.

1) My father is a schizophrenic which terrifies me, and
2) I was sexually abused by an older male when I was ten for around four years.

I told him, I don't know how I will get past these issues and it is very likely that I will be burdened with them for the rest of my life, "and I need you to understand that".

He agreed that those are major and then he said he can deal with it (I don't know if he knew, he's just a very confident individual). We have been together now for almost 8 years, and I still love him as much as the first year and then some, and I intend to be with him for many more years to come (hopefully for the rest of our lives).

Craig

_________________________
Craig

Guilt and shame have never done any of us any good at all.

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#238779 - 07/18/08 12:09 PM Re: Help, my husband wants to runaway [Re: cbfull]
An Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/24/04
Posts: 151
Loc: usa
cba full,
thanks for the feedback. Sometimes on not good about explaining and felt like I really failed on my last posting here few weeks ago for the first time (it wasn't well expressed and when one of the guys took a little offense and rightfully so- I hadn't been careful re: phrasing and their "filters" I know I've to to always be conscious of in communication)

the chapter for friends and families might be a good one to read first- i really think Mike's original study as an anthropologist- another area that studies development in the context of culture- perfect for understanding the guys world and wounds- I think it's why his book is often the first one most of the guys mention- I'm on my third copy! Want one that hasn't fallen apart into pieces from my readings-

I TOTALLY agree re: Gay relationships- part of the reason I interserped parter but since as far as I could tell most in this strand were female partners. I have learned over time what you said and in the past had read of male partners on the board.

another thing you'll see in mike's book is that two survivors today - male or female, as would be anticipated, face that much "extra" in the relating. I'm sure a book could be written on that alone. He just wrote a tiny bit about.

I didn't mention it above but if their first perp was a female nurturer and they were physically sexual with them , whew, in terms of healing from this. It's why I understood my BF having to leave and only being able to handle a nonsexual based relationship - you'll notice probably on the boards the guys in some parts of healing (often years) have to go through a nonsexual period in the healing. Again it makes sense to me- in those first stages of development we ARE non-sexual. Normal sexuality starts developing about mid yound childhood - again noted in the stages.
My BF used to tell me I should write a book cause of what I'm passionate about flows out. He was also baffled about how I could see these things in the past so clerly (cause my own dysfuntional childhood experiences were part of my striving to understand what was very confusing too- I didn't suffer incest, just a one time molestion experience exactly at that childhood sexual development point and the biggest damage was my knowing what the parental reaction would be- as a 40 yr old who was blown away by a retired principal shockingly attempt to molest and my daring to tell my mother - even at this age- her first and onlyresponse was "Were you dressed provactively?"- an extremely bizarre question if you knew how I dressed. And the molestion was by a church deacon and my mother is too this day enmeshed in that church- It was only in my 40s I realized I pretty much stayed away from and had difficult interactions even my professional life with any men who presented in the sort of suit and ties I associated with deacons- it was the only dress I saw them in. I was literally defensive and confrontative- since becoming aware of it, I moderate it, but I still am unlikely too date a man whose first presentation is in a suit or whoever wears a watch! Too much association. Thus my guard was down when the nearly 70 yr old retiree was dressed casually in my home as a water filter installer. truth is i haven't dated one of those sort of men- i'm just trying now with the consciousness to say i'd consider it.

I'm thankful my BF left with what I've come to understand. I know I may or may not ever see him again, as his was a primary female perpetuator and the sa complete pleasure, the distancing when it ended after a year, what he always felt as the painful part until beginning recovery. then it became a mass of confusion understandbly.

He told me he would end up treating me EXACTLY as you all report if we lived together/married. I couldn't understand that at all at the time as he only was the most wonderful when together- he'd just call off the relationship for months, then weeks, then days, when he'd feel that reaction come up as he'd recognized his patterns from the past, and that was his way of honoring/protecting me. of course at that time i just asked the questions all the women ask above, did he love me or not. He said without a doubt yes,just as so many of the guys say about the partners in their lives. )but Yes with the reality that he couldn't really love anyone until he learned to love himself. And he knew Trust was the issue cause he had started recovery, but he said (wisely) that until he could trust he couldn't open himself to feeling my love or his own.

Mike does say over and over again that even if a relationship does withstand the "hurricane" of recovery- a great analogy- and it may be a 30 yr hurricane- the relationship will be a brand new one with the integrated whole of the partner. Makes sense, they started again, they're in a sense new people. My BF once said he wanted to be like a flower, emerging from the underground that was rooted in the CSA below the surface into something beautiful. I love these guys for their sensitivity and beauty within- meanwhile they're feeling anything but.

Mike says once started recovery can't be stopped- rests, breaks are needed cause of it's sheer exhaustion and depletion of self, (another point the guys are likely to feel frustrated with themselves, afraid they'll never heal, etc) but that of course being uncomfortable with their new development, they're uncomfortable until securing the next stage.

I saw for the first time a guy on here saying he'd worked through his DID (diss. identity disorder)- he was responding in a strand from guys currently in the throws and frustration of it. He said he remembered it but it'd pretty much blurred as he integrated through his healing. I had to PM him and ask him how long it took- truth is I was hoping it was some sort of miraculous 3 years instead of 7,8 or 9 (and average often estimated by the professionals dealing w/ this most- he was 69 and his journey was almost 30 yrs!

but it is evident, just in the 4 years I've been reading the boards and Mike cites in too in the book's beginning and on his website, that resources are increasing rapidly for the guys (and he says partners are the only ones that resources are even scarcer for!). and we all see the media making it possible for males to come forward earlier and earlier and while still often only partially understood, it's become more acceptable and supported. Because they're starting earlier, less years to unlearn, feel guilt and "wasted" about and you see them going through the stages quicker, albeit it's an uphill, winding journey where often they can't see the forest for the trees.

I do want to think more on how much the process is same and is different for females . Both because of societal, biological, and things like mentioned above, the greater "permission" to feel, the healing process is different. Not saying easier but different and a little more understood and supported in generally.

ok enough of this flow. Life calls \:\) . All support and recognition for your own healing process, An



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#238812 - 07/18/08 04:40 PM Re: Help, my husband wants to runaway [Re: An]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
Dear An,

Well said. I have read and tried to educate myself on this subject. My H told me 13 years ago, after 5 years of marriage. He has gone for therapy, and I have been supportive. This time he has been very resistant to going back. We are now in marriage counseling and the first thing he said to the T was,"I was sexually abused by my brother, I went to counseling,and this issue does not have any bearing on why we are here today." THe T told me I should not be bringing it up if it is not affecting the marriage now. I WAS AT THAT POINT THE ONLY PERSON IN THE ROOM WHO THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT. Four sessions later, the T finally saw my point, and told my H," maybe this does need to be looked at more." My H was pissed.

My point is even though I get exactly what you are saying, and I know I am not to blame,(which is why we are still together) Words do hurt. It gets harder and harder to not take offense to what is being said and done. I told him recently that I was done with it. I said I could support him through anything,but not at the expense of me. I always forgave him because I knew it wasn't really me, this time it needed to stop. His response was that he doesn't know why I think everything revolves around his abuse,and he thought that I was really strong and could handle anything thrown my way.

I made the mistake of putting his needs before my own on this because he was hurt and in pain, all beccause I "understood" it wasn't me. I won't do that again. I want more than anything for my marriage to work,but I won't settle. We are both humans. we both have feelings,wants and needs,and we both deserve to have them validated.

Lastly,my spouse is not happy with me being here or that I do educate myself on the subject. He says this site is filling my head with nonsense, not everything is about the abuse. My response was, "so are you saying that your just naturally a self centered ass?" He didn't like that. I can't continue to be supportive of him when he can't or won't help himself.

Thank you for all your insight, it was informative and very true, it just gets hard. NYDAISY


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#238859 - 07/18/08 10:20 PM Re: Help, my husband wants to runaway [Re: NY Daisy]
Trish4850 Offline
BoD Liaison Emeritus
MaleSurvivor<

Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 3280
Loc: New Jersey
Yes Daisy, it is hard. The hardest thing that any of us are asked to do and the funny thing is, no one is even asking, but we take it upon ourselves anyway because we love the men we love. We couldn't stop that any more than we could stop breathing. We see our guy hurting or raging or withdrawing or pushing and we KNOW why and it's so hard not to get lost in the pain.

The only thing we can do is to take stock in ourselves. To lead by example and hope and pray that the man will let the boy peak out and see that there is another way to live life. It's such a simple idea, but one that is oh so hard to accomplish for both partners.

Ann, your post is anything but unpopular. It's very factual which makes it very sad. My b/f was abused by both of his parents, his mother-unit took the lead and many times told the father-unit what to do. No "punishment" was to extreme. The father-unit sometimes tried "prove" he was the man of the house if the mother wasn't around. No matter how you twist it, my b/f was in harms way. He suffers emotionally and physically to this day. When I think of the mountain of crap my b/f has to overcome to be a healthy adult man it blows my mind. So I don't think of the mountain; I can't and I know that. Both his T and I try to take his mind away from the mountain too. It's entirely too overwhelming to wrap a rational head around.

I'm very grateful that he is in therapy; he's working so hard and putting himself through the ringer trying to make sense out of something that makes no sense at all. He says he wants to "be right," his words, not mine. It'll take G_d knows how long and I don't care how long it takes as long as he's reaching for it.

In the meanwhile, I'll love him and support him and I'll come here.

ROCK ON........Trish

_________________________
If you fall down 10 times, Stand up 11.

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#238927 - 07/19/08 11:24 AM Re: Help, my husband wants to runaway [Re: Trish4850]
An Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/24/04
Posts: 151
Loc: usa
Thanks for the feedback Trish. I guess cause i'm becoming a T and also because it gave me more understanding that "it wasn't me", it's the opposite of sad for me- I think cause I see it as giving me tools I need to take a survivor through as a T. and I see elements of T's doing just that, and the guys truly responding, in their boards. I love your mother-unit, father-unit terminology- that's new to me.

I remember my friend telling me that at the mike lew workshop one of the exercises in the group was to write the first name of your perp on a blackboard- it was to help see them as the responsible adult party, and not as the relationship so many are, brother,parent etc. I could see how that could be powerful reframing when they're dealing with it, at adult to adult level now just by that "naming"- (no last names as the intent was not to be identifying to others). I'm not even sure if anywhere during the weekend they talked about relationship of perp.

love your rock on to, always makes me think RECOVER ON...
ps thanks for all your work here...



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#238934 - 07/19/08 11:54 AM Re: Help, my husband wants to runaway [Re: An]
An Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/24/04
Posts: 151
Loc: usa
Dear NY Daisy,

I identify w/ alot of what you said from when i was in relationship for those years w/ him. and I was always wishing mike's book didn't just address for partners, when things were Physically abusive cause that's an easy one anyway to know it's time to leave. I remember wishing Mike had addressed more how F&F should handle the emotional abuse (in the end i realized he had- see below) . mine didn't use the abusive words, but when i say he just went away at those times those feelings came up- as he put it always "the darkness taking his sould to be hidden in a paranoid silence of self imposed sanctuary full of fear and mistrust" (that blew me away) he explained it was a time when he knew his mind was telling him untrue things about me, - he just stayed away so I wouldn't have to hear them and be victim of them too- I respect the choice now tremendously.

I see now he needed to leave to heal. I see it so clearly and feel good about it and know it was the kindest thing I could do for him as well. Yes i'm open to him ever coming back should that be right for both of us at the time, but i remember Mike's biggest guiding words as to the ONLY thing we could do for them which was - to model good self care. it does mean lvacuated. No power (which included water) for 5 days. He was racked with guilt but not there. Called him when hit head on and not knowing what to do alone on the side of the road. no response. the more i needed him, the more he couldn't be there.

But when he was able to be there, no man could be kinder, etc.eaving sometimes or letting them leave without protest etc. and now I don't see it as something to be sad about-cause it's recovery.

I truly have always cared more if he recovers than if we're together . there's no comparison in my mind to what's more important. I don't pray for us getting back together, I feel what's meant to be will be there, in both our lives. But I do always pray for his recovery. Hope and Healing~


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#239586 - 07/22/08 07:20 PM . [Re: An]
bardo213 Offline
Guest

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 811
.


Edited by bardo213 (06/21/13 05:12 PM)

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#239620 - 07/22/08 10:42 PM Re: Help, my husband wants to runaway [Re: bardo213]
Trish4850 Offline
BoD Liaison Emeritus
MaleSurvivor<

Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 3280
Loc: New Jersey
lynchmob, it's not sometimes, it's always. I think it's pretty much the first rule of thumb for a successful relationship, dare I say a successful life. A person has to be able to see the value in themselves - to enjoy their own company. To do otherwise, ties one's worth as a person to another human being which is something that can never work out, not in the long run anyway.

ROCK ON........Trish

_________________________
If you fall down 10 times, Stand up 11.

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