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#234644 - 06/30/08 10:43 AM Why Do Men Rape ?
jcf1957 Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 192
Loc: North Of The 49th Parallel
In these last five years during recovery I have tried to study a number of books concerning the reasons as to ("Why men persist in their selfish primitive behaviors to rape women, children, and men"). For some here this topic could trigger and stir a lot of differentiated emotions. Arguably this topic is controversial and debatable to say the least. Personally I don't think global statistics in the Western world including the continent of Africa where rape statistics out-weigh any nation in the world really do any justice to bring to light the full scope of how many C.S.A. or Adult male victims are raped every year. It's only in the last two and a half decades that men have only begun to come out of their proverbial secret closets and speak openly about their personal male rape stories. Male Survivor itself with all it's members doesn't even amount to a sizable fraction of the vast innumerable male rape victims around the world who understandably choose to remain silent.

Without trying to deliberately dismiss or diminish the importance of C.S.A. and Adult male rape victims here at Male Survivor; I would like to focus this discussion primarily on female rape victim issues as a "greater statistical guide" to understanding ("Why Do Men Rape") ? The following treatise was compiled by a group of scientist

IS RAPE AN ACT OF VIOLENCE ?

More research is needed to decide the question of whether rape is an adaptation or merely a by-product of other sexual adaptations. Both hypotheses are plausible: one of us (Thornhill) supports the former, whereas the other (Palmer) endorses the latter. Regardless of which hypothesis prevails, however, there is no doubt that rape has evolutionary -- and thus genetic -- origins. All traits and behaviors stem from a complex interplay between genes and the environment. If rape is an adaptation, men must possess genes that exist specifically because rape increased reproductive success. If rape turns out to be merely a side effect of other adaptations, then the genes involved exist for reasons that have nothing to do with rape. Either way, however, the evolutionary perspective explains a number of otherwise puzzling facts about the persistence of rape among human males.

For example, if rape is evolutionary in origin, it should be a threat mostly to women of childbearing age. And, in fact, young adult women are vastly overrepresented among rape victims in the female population as a whole, and female children and post-reproductive-age women are greatly underrepresented.

By the same token, if rape has persisted in the human population through the action of sexual selection, rapists should not seriously injure their victims -- the rapist's reproductive success would be hampered, after all, if he killed his victim or inflicted so much harm that the potential pregnancy was compromised. Once again, the evolutionary logic seems to predict reality. Rapists seldom engage in gratuitous violence; instead, they usually limit themselves to the force required to subdue or control their victims. A survey by one of us (Palmer), of volunteers at rape crisis centers, found that only 15 percent of the victims whom the volunteers had encountered reported having been beaten in excess of what was needed to accomplish the rape. And in a 1979 study of 1,401 rape victims, a team led by the sociologist Thomas W. McCahill found that most of the victims reported being pushed or held, but that acts of gratuitous violence, such as beating, slapping or choking, were reported in only a minority of the rapes -- 22 percent or less. A very small number of rape victims are murdered: about .01 percent (that figure includes unreported as well as reported rapes). Even in those few cases, it may be that the murder takes place not because the rapist is motivated by a desire to kill, but because by removing the only witness to the crime he greatly increases his chance of escaping punishment.

PSYCHOLOGICAL PAIN

Rape is more distressing for women than are other violent crimes, and evolutionary theory can help explain that as well. In recent years research on human unhappiness informed by evolutionary theory has developed substantial evidence about the functional role of psychological pain. Such pain is thought to be an adaptation that helps people guard against circumstances that reduce their reproductive success; it does so by spurring behavioral changes aimed at preventing future pain [see "What Good Is Feeling Bad?" by Randolph M. Nesse, November/December 1991]. Thus one would expect the greatest psychological pain to be associated with events that lower one's reproductive success, and, indeed, emotionally traumatic events such as the death of a relative, the loss of social status, desertion by one's mate and the trauma of being raped can all be interpreted as having that effect.

Rape reduces female reproductive success in several ways. For one thing, the victim may be injured. Moreover, if she becomes pregnant, she is deprived of her chance to choose the best father for her children. A rape may also cause a woman to lose the investment of her long-term partner, because it calls into question whether the child she later bears is really his. A variety of studies have shown that both men and women care more for their genetic offspring than for stepchildren.

One of us (Thornhill), in association with the anthropologist Nancy W. Thornhill, has conducted a series of studies on the factors that contribute to the emotional pain that women experience after a rape. Those studies confirmed that the more the rape interfered with the women's reproductive interests, the more pain they felt. The data, obtained from the Joseph J. Peters Institute in Philadelphia, came from interviews with 790 girls and women who had reported a sexual assault and who were subsequently examined at Philadelphia General Hospital between 1973 and 1975. The subjects, who ranged in age from two months to eighty-eight years, were asked a variety of questions designed to evaluate their psychological responses to the rape. Among other things, they were asked about changes in their sleeping habits, in their feelings toward known and unknown men, in their sexual relations with their partners (children were not asked about sexual matters), and in their eating habits and social activities.

Analysis of the data showed that young women suffered greater distress after a rape than did children or women who were past reproductive age. That finding makes evolutionary sense, because it is young women who were at risk of being impregnated by an undesirable mate. Married women, moreover, were more traumatized than unmarried women, and they were more likely to feel that their future had been harmed by the rape. That, too, makes evolutionary sense, because the doubt a rape sows about paternity can lead a long-term mate to withdraw his support.

Among the women in the study, psychological pain rose inversely to the violence of the attack. In other words, when the rapist exerted less force, the victim was more upset afterward. Those findings, surprising at first, make sense in the evolutionary context: a victim who exhibits physical evidence that sexual access was forced may have less difficulty convincing her husband or boyfriend that what took place was rape rather than consensual sex. In evolutionary terms, such evidence would be reassuring to a pair-bonded male, because rape is a one-time event, whereas consensual sex with other partners is likely to be frequent, and thus more threatening to paternity.

Finally, women of reproductive age reported more emotional distress when the assault involved sexual intercourse than when it involved other kinds of sexual behavior. Among young girls and older women, however, penile-vaginal intercourse was no more upsetting than other kinds of assaults. Again, the possibility of an unwanted pregnancy may be a key factor in the degree of trauma the victim experiences.

For all those reasons, the psychological pain that rape victims suffer appears to be an evolved defense against rape. The human females who outreproduced others and thus became our ancestors. were people who were highly distressed about rape. Their distress presumably served their interests by motivating them to identify the circumstances that resulted in the rape, assess the problems the rape caused, and act to avoid rapes in the future.

IS RAPE AN ACT OF SEX?

If women today are to protect themselves from rape, and men are to desist from it, people must be given advice that is based on knowledge. Insisting that rape is not about sex misinforms both men and women about the motivations behind rape -- a dangerous error that not only hinders prevention efforts but may actually increase the incidence of rape.

What we envision is an evolutionarily informed program for young men that teaches them to restrain their sexual behavior. Completion of such a course might be required, say, before a young man is granted a driver. s license. The program might start by inducing the young men to acknowledge the power of their sexual impulses, and then explaining why human males have evolved in that way. The young men should learn that past Darwinian selection is the reason that a man can get an erection just by looking at a photo of a naked woman, why he may be tempted to demand sex even if he knows that his date truly doesn. t want it, and why he may mistake a woman's friendly comment or tight blouse as an invitation to sex. Most of all, the program should stress that a man. s evolved sexual desires offer him no excuse whatsoever for raping a woman, and that if he understands and resists those desires, he may be able to prevent their manifestation in sexually coercive behavior. The criminal penalties for rape should also be discussed in detail.

Young women also need a new kind of education. For example, in today's rape-prevention handbooks, women are often told that sexual attractiveness does not influence rapists. That is emphatically not true. Because a woman is considered most attractive when her fertility is at its peak, from her mid-teens through her twenties, tactics that focus on protecting women in those age groups will be most effective in reducing the overall frequency of rape.

Young women should be informed that, during the evolution of human sexuality, the existence of female choice has favored men who are quickly aroused by signals of a female. s willingness to grant sexual access. Furthermore, women need to realize that, because selection favored males who had many mates, men tend to read signals of acceptance into a woman. s actions even when no such signals are intended.

COMPROMISING POSITIONS

In spite of protestations to the contrary, women should also be advised that the way they dress can put them at risk. In the past, most discussions of female appearance in the context of rape have, entirely unfairly, asserted that a victim's dress and behavior should affect the degree of punishment meted out to the rapist: thus if the victim was dressed provocatively, she "had it coming to her" -- and the rapist would get off lightly. But current attempts to avoid blaming the victim have led to false propaganda that dress and behavior have little or no influence on a woman's chances of being raped. As a consequence, important knowledge about how to avoid dangerous circumstances is often suppressed. Sure-ly the point that no woman's behavior gives a man the right to rape her can be made with-out encouraging women to overlook the role they themselves may be playing in compromising their safety.

Until relatively recently in Europe and the United States, strict social taboos kept young men and women from spending unsupervised time together, and in many other countries young women are still kept cloistered away from men. Such physical barriers are understandably abhorrent to many people, since they greatly limit the freedom of women. But the toppling of those barriers in modern Western countries raises problems of its own. The common practice of unsupervised dating in cars and private homes, which is often accompanied by the consumption of alcohol, has placed young women in environments that are conducive to rape to an extent that is probably unparalleled in history. After studying the data on the risk factors for rape, the sex investigators Elizabeth R. Allgeier and Albert R. Allgeier, both of Bowling Green State University in Ohio, recommended that men and women interact only in public places during the early stages of their relationships -- or, at least, that women exert more control than they generally do over the circumstances in which they consent to be alone with men.

EVOLUTIONARY COUNSELING

An evolutionary perspective on rape might not only help prevent rapes but also lead to more effective counseling for rape victims. A therapy program explaining that men rape because they collectively want to dominate women will not help a victim understand why her attacker appeared to be sexually motivated, why she can no longer concentrate enough to conduct her life effectively, or why her husband or boyfriend may view the attack as an instance of infidelity. In addition, men who are made aware of the evolutionary reasons for their suspicions about their wives' or girlfriends' claims of rape should be in a better position to change their reactions to such claims.

Unlike many other contentious social issues, such as abortion and homosexual rights, everyone has the same goal regarding rape: to end it. Evolutionary biology provides clear information that society can use to achieve that goal. Social science, by contrast, promotes erroneous solutions, because it fails to recognize that Darwinian selection has shaped not only human bodies but human psychology, learning patterns and behavior as well. The fact is that men, relative to women, are more aggressive, sexually assertive and eager to copulate, and less discriminating about mates' traits that contribute to the existence of rape. When social scientists mistakenly assert that socialization alone causes those gender differences, they ignore the fact that the same differences also exist in all the other animal species in which males offer less parental investment than females and compete for access to females.

In addressing the question of rape, the choice between the politically constructed answers of social science and the evidentiary answers of evolutionary biology is essentially a choice between ideology and knowledge. As scientists who would like to see rape eradicated from human life, we sincerely hope that truth will prevail. "

_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

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#234956 - 07/01/08 02:29 PM Re: Why Do Men Rape ? [Re: jcf1957]
hogan_dawg Offline
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Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
ICF1957 I'm assuming you're presenting someone else's work here. You say "The following treatise was compiled by a group of scientist..." So this is why I made that assumption.

It's one of the most biased pieces I've ever read. I can't believe it ever got published because it fails on so many levels to meet even the bare minimum standards for academic discourse. See my summary at the end.

First, I submit the authors need to prove that social science has failed to help us understand rape before labeling the efforts of social science as ideology. And how arrogant that they say evolutionary biology is 'knowledge' and social science is 'ideology'. Come on! And not one single 'fact' in that piece is backed up by a corresponding scientific reference, needed to verify the fact. We should just accept their 'verdict' as truth? Why? How do I know it isn't just bullshit just because some 'Professor' from Creepy U believes it to be true? The failure of these authors to provide citations I believe is because they don't want healthy debate, they want to make a political point of a most mischievious kind.

Second, on a more personal note, Yeah, my wife was raped because of how she dressed. She was wearing jeans and a blouse and a winter coat. The authors can go fuck themselves, IMHO. Good science participates in a society, it doesn't try to tell society that the way it dresses it's women invites rape. And the proof is in the pudding - no matter how any woman has dressed, I've never raped, nor have millions of men visiting strip bars.

Third, just because ticks and fleas rape, that very fact isn't very useful in understanding the phenomenon in thinking feeling humans. I fail to see why I should take their examples and generate social policy based on the behavior of an insect. I wonder at all if there's much to be learned from animal behavior regarding human rape - humans have brains with structures not possessed by other animals, suggesting control centers that 'could' operate with humans, but fail.

Fourth, in terms of explanation (1/2 of the job of science) as someone who has more than passing familiarity with evolutionary psychology, it's also true that absolutely every human phenomenon has an explanation in evolutionary theory. It was the same weakness as Freud's theory: All explanation, little in the way of real prediction of future events. As soon as evolutionary theory can predict our next evolutionary step, I'll listen, and until then, it's armchair explanation, and, very often, a 'survival of the fittest' ethic which usually leaves women and children quite vulnerable to the power of the fittest, most aggressive male scientist (purported 'intellectual') with a bad attitude.

Finally, these 'distinguished' scientists failed to sign their names to the piece - I don't blame them! If I wrote that piece of shit I'd claim I was drunk and put an enemy's name on it. No references, no balanced debate about the issues, no equal consideration of ideas , no bibliography - just polemic. And let's not forget the 'esteemed' traditions of evolutionary biology and psychology, including:

J. Phillipe Rushton - U of Western Ontario professor who argues regarding race (a concept they fail to operationally define - remember 4 codes for black versus white - skin color, hair kink, lips and nose, and one disease - that's it, that's all that codes for 'race', lol) and IQ that mongoloids > caucasoids > negroids right in his abstracts and a flawed theory saying penis size and IQ are inversely correlated (because black men have larger penises, he argues they correspondingly don't need larger brains)

Kevin MacDonald - California State U professor who argues that Jews kind of deserved what they got over the years because they intermarry and keep business relations between and to benefit Jews (itself a dubious proposition).

Eugenics - the whole idea that IQ is wholly a matter of genetic fitness - lesser IQs kind of 'deserve' to die.

In these ways and many more, this article is biased propoganda that fails to meet the test of providing the reader with proper citations, proper references, proper bibliography, balanced discussion of alternate theoretical viewpoints and it gives instead a selective, myopic distillation of a huge database of information gathered over literally hundreds of years of research and discussion, ignoring any data that didn't conform to the notions of evolutionary biology/psychology. For these reasons and others not stated (I don't give much time for these guys) I would grade this paper with a big fat 'D'. And the only reason I wouldn't give it an 'E' is that I might be missing some information here and I'm allowing for the 'benefit of the doubt'.



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/01/08 03:17 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#234963 - 07/01/08 03:11 PM Re: Why Do Men Rape ? [Re: hogan_dawg]
Stretch73 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 336
Loc: Sea Isle City, NJ
I think that question is as easy to answer and the following question; Which came first? The chicken or the egg?

_________________________
"I was so poor growing up, that if I wasn't born a boy, I wouldn't have had anything to play with." Rodney Dangerfield

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#234967 - 07/01/08 03:46 PM Re: Why Do Men Rape ? [Re: hogan_dawg]
jcf1957 Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 192
Loc: North Of The 49th Parallel
Hogan;
You made a fair and valid interesting remark. As I stated in my opening remarks that this treatise was debatable and controversial.
I was focusing basically on women's issues. Whether men are willing or not to accept, statistically the male population takes the greatest ("fault burden") for female rape. For many this is a hard fact in reality to swallow. How do I or anybody else argue with statistics.
For thousands of centuries men have been the primary instigator of female rape. I don't like hearing this. But I can't change history.
Or can I. If Men Aren't Part Of The Solution, then obviously their Part Of The Problem. As for ideological science. I don't always subscribe to theoretical suppositions no matter what primitive human science wants society to believe.



Edited by jcf1957 (07/01/08 03:46 PM)
_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

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#235122 - 07/01/08 11:00 PM Re: Why Do Men Rape ? [Re: jcf1957]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
The topic is debatable and controversial, to be sure. I have no quibble with discussing tough topics.

Regardless of the preponderance of males being the perpetrators of rape, women still rape. And that needs to be explained. And once explained, it's entirely feasible that our understanding of the phenomenon might be elucidated. Right?

- Female teachers rape young teenage boys.
- Female babysitters rape young children.
- Mothers rape their sons.
- Women make child pornography.
- Women have raped men.

Any scientific theory that can't explain rape by both sexes is wholly inadequate. It's not enough to say 'most' rape is by males simply because you use the animal kingdom as your baseline where males do the rape. That's called 'stacking the deck in your favor' and good science doesn't do that - it tries to find out what's true in an impartial manner. I have a serious quarrel with the lack of impartiality of the piece.

My quibble is also that the article doesn't meet professional standards, or even standards that allow the reader to read the studies given, and provide pointed criticism. I'm leveling a serious criticism of the whole paper, how it was written and researched, and presented to readers.

I'm also saying that whereas they accuse social science of ideology, what they've done, by publishing stuff that doesn't allow the reader to review first hand sources and critique them, is exactly what you see in ideological presentations. And junk science.

I don't mind junk science if all we're doing is sitting around the coffee table having a java. My problem is that they are proposing solutions for education, social policy, that would take our tax dollars and 'educate' people on their own peculiar ideology and perspective. That's public mischief, in my mind. Have a look at what they'd teach - it's a little frightening. The course makes out that men have these 'evolved' desires that need to be 'reigned in' and 'controlled' as if we're some kind of powerless animal whose cerebral cortex is only an evolutionary by product meant to 'control' our hugely erect penises from doing harm. I've never thought of raping someone and I've never had to 'control myself' or think of the legal consequences of rape in order to 'prevent myself' from acting on my 'evolutionarily wrought' desires.



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/01/08 11:12 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#235183 - 07/02/08 12:52 AM Re: Why Do Men Rape ? [Re: hogan_dawg]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6857
Loc: USA
Therapist?

Has it occurred to you that if you break the word apart correctly

It becomes:

the rapist

Ouch, the truth comes out. \:\) \:D

Puffer


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#235199 - 07/02/08 03:08 AM Re: Why Do Men Rape ? [Re: pufferfish]
OKIE MIKE Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/04
Posts: 981
Loc: HULBERT OK
To give my opinion of why men rape other men. I believe that it is a power and control thing.
The person that raped me was a sargent first class(E-7) in the US Army . I was a Private (E-2) I think that he did this because The military is not going to believe someone that has ben in the army less than a year over someone that has ben in the army 15 years, and he knew that he could get away with it

_________________________
MICHAEL

"I HAD NO SHOES THEN I SAW A MAN THAT HAD NO FEET"

"All I can do is be me, whoever that is"

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#245956 - 08/21/08 02:19 AM Re: Why Do Men Rape ? [Re: jcf1957]
lostcowboy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 797
Loc: North Texas
Hi jcf1957, one of the ladies over at pandys.org wrote this. theoriescoercion.pdf She also asked the question about rape. I replied, until the theory's can account for male rape, they are incomplete. They say that one out of four women will be raped in their life time and one out of seven men. Both sets of numbers are way to high. No mater which of the three prevalent theory's are right, or a mix of them, until they can account for why men are raped they are incomplete. The Evolutionary theory is based on the selfish gene idea, before man had consciousness. The other two theory's are based on more recent times when man did have a thinking brain. Again I say, in order to have a complete theory, they must include males raping males. Females raping other females, and females raping males are much less common, but should be accounted for also.
I think I have read about three book so far on the Evolutionary theory about how we developed. I think one was called (the biological factor), another was (what she wants, what he wants, and why they are so different). The last was the (Monogamy myth)based on dna and birds mostly. All of these books are interesting to read, while the do mention rape , they do not concentrate on it.

Take care,
Clifford

_________________________
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

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#245976 - 08/21/08 08:11 AM Re: Why Do Men Rape ? [Re: lostcowboy]
LW1527 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 408
Loc: Salt Lake City Ut
MEN RAPE BECAUSE THEY'RE MONSTERS. MEN RAPE BOYS BECAUSE THEY'RE MONSTERS. THIS SOUNDS SO REMOVED AND CLINICAL. THERE'S NOTHING CLINICAL ABOUT BEING RAPED!!!!! IT'S ALL PURE RAW EMOTION.

MEN RAPE BOYS BECAUSE MAYBE THEY WERE RAPED AS BOYS TOO. OR MAYBE THEY JUST HAVE THIS DAMN POWER THING OVER BOYS AS THEY BEAT THEM INTO SUBMISSION AND RIP THEIR CLOTHES. MEN RAPE BECAUSE THEY GET A BIG KICK BEING POWERFUL OVER THE WEAK. WHAT MORE IS THERE TO SAY???

LANCE


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#246108 - 08/21/08 08:52 PM Re: Why Do Men Rape ? [Re: LW1527]
lostcowboy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 797
Loc: North Texas
Lance!!!! I did not mean to upset you or anyone else on here. If what I said seems remote and distant, it was deliberate on my part. I was trying not to trigger anyone. I am sorry I did not succeed.

Take care,
Clifford

_________________________
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

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