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#233833 - 06/26/08 03:22 PM God Loves Most, but Not Me
LW1527 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 408
Loc: Salt Lake City Ut
I stumbled onto this site. I didn't realize how triggering it would be. How bitter I feel. I believe in God. But I hear stories about how God saves people, how God sent angels, how God did this and that. I believe in God, but I don't think God believes in me. I think he wrote me off a long time ago when he realized I was damaged goods. No unclean thing can enter into his kingdom, right? I'm filthy and disgusting and made that why because humans made me this way. I've prayed many times for angels. He never sent any. Let's face it, God loves most, but he doesn't love me and that's okay.


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#233854 - 06/26/08 05:05 PM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: LW1527]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
aw, that frikkin mumbo jumbo has done more to harm people....forget all that crap behind the curtain. god redeems, he re-evaluates his creation. it is even more blessed when the creation turns to god to seek him, and god does not turn away. it is not in his nature to do so. it is his nature to convert that which cooperates. even as the nails are being driven in, he's there putting balm on the pain. put your foot down and the ground you need will be there when the foot hits the pavement. here is a prayer i made, and i hope it gives you some comfort:

a survivor's prayer

lord jesus christ i thank you and i praise you that by your suffering and death sin has been allayed; that by your resurrection we have been saved from the power of sin, disease and death, and restored to lost innocence. lead us to repentance, conversion and healing. grant us the grace and guidance of your spirit to willingly embrace our joys, sorrows and monotonies as invitations to deepend faith. thru them may our hearts and lives be purified and transformed accordingly, that the father's will be done in us as it is in heaven.

ron

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#238296 - 07/15/08 10:58 AM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: Sans Logos]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
LW1527,
When I first got into recovery I too was very angry with God for what had happen to me as a child. I felt he had abandonded me just like everybody else had.
But today looking back i can see that he has guided my every step-first in helping me survivor the abuse. Then by bring people(angels) into my life who having lovingly shown be the path to healing.
mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#238301 - 07/15/08 11:30 AM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: LW1527]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6514
Loc: Terminus
Originally Posted By: LW1527
I stumbled onto this site. I didn't realize how triggering it would be. How bitter I feel. I believe in God. But I hear stories about how God saves people, how God sent angels, how God did this and that. I believe in God, but I don't think God believes in me. I think he wrote me off a long time ago when he realized I was damaged goods. No unclean thing can enter into his kingdom, right? I'm filthy and disgusting and made that why because humans made me this way. I've prayed many times for angels. He never sent any. Let's face it, God loves most, but he doesn't love me and that's okay.


There's a lot to say about this. I'll offer it not to prove you wrong...not to try to convince you of something...but to offer an explaination IF YOU WISH. Maybe you are just venting??

Anyway...If you accept, I'll supply some clarification according to MY understanding.

_________________________
We don't need another hero! [Aunty Entity 1985]

The Aftermath Video

My Absolute Hero!

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#238305 - 07/15/08 12:23 PM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: LW1527]
VLinvictus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: LW1527
I stumbled onto this site. I didn't realize how triggering it would be. How bitter I feel. I believe in God. But I hear stories about how God saves people, how God sent angels, how God did this and that. I believe in God, but I don't think God believes in me. I think he wrote me off a long time ago when he realized I was damaged goods. No unclean thing can enter into his kingdom, right? I'm filthy and disgusting and made that why because humans made me this way. I've prayed many times for angels. He never sent any. Let's face it, God loves most, but he doesn't love me and that's okay.


It seems to me like you've started out with some faulty expectations about what God is and what God does and, when those expectations were not fulfilled, you became disappointed.

That's no fault of yours: that the human story. We all make Gods to believe in, we weave myths and create symbols to give meaning to the world around us, to name the Unnameable, to give a face to the Faceless. That is the natural religious impulse in the human psyche, but that doesn't change the fact that at the base all of our religious ideas are human made metaphors. Being human metaphors, they are only valid so long as they work and continue to be meaningful to those who create them. When they cease to work, then the myth and metaphor is dead and must swept aside for a new one to be woven in its place.

God doesn't save people, otherwise no one would ever suffer CSA or rape or be murdered. The Holocaust and 9/11 would never have happened.

God doesn't send angels, otherwise see above.

God is not a combination of Superman and Santa Claus watching out for people and swooping down to save the day and give them whatever they want.

That doesn't mean, though, that God is not real nor that God doesen't love you. Just because your prayers weren't answered doesn't mean that you are somehow "unclean" or inferior or "damaged goods." If one is going to pray for angels to save one, one might as well pray for a flying penguin from the North Pole. The old saying "God helps those who help themselves" is truer than most realize: if God exists at all, then one finds God within oneself and when one seeks out to do what is right and looks for strength and help from within oneself -- and from other people (who, like you, are after all created in the image of God) -- one will find it. It's not going to be easy -- that was never part of the bargain in this perverse game we call "life," but it's there. "The Kingdom of God is within you..." and so forth.

No human being has the power to make another human being "filthy and disgusting." People make themselves filthy and disgusting by disfiguring the image of God found in other people. The person(s) who victimized you were filthy and disgusting; they cannot diminish your infinite worth and dignity.

Unfortunately, your perp(s) have blinded you to that worth and dignity. I hope that through whatever means of recovery are available to you the scales can be removed from your eyes and you can see yourself as the image of God that you are.

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#238356 - 07/15/08 05:14 PM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: VLinvictus]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Denver, CO
only thing i might say differently ...

God doesn't always save people ...

God doesn't always send angels ...

As to why/when or how He decides when/where/how He acts ...

if i knew that - i'd be Him.

which i most definitely (and obviously) am NOT.

M



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#238359 - 07/15/08 05:34 PM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: MarkK]
VLinvictus Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: NY
Fair enough. Theodicy is a messy business. For me, a God that doesn't intervene and save and send angels is a lot more palatable than one who picks and chooses. I've never encountered a single instance of such divine intervention that isn't either in the category of myth and legend or subjective personal belief and/or wishful thinking -- and the number of instances when any loving omnipotent and omniscient being should have intervened but didn't just gets longer and longer as time goes on.

If God can be said to "act" at all, then God acts within the human heart and through human beings. If "angels" are anything more than mythic symbols employed by the Biblical authors to provide mechanism for the infinite and transcendant God to interact with finite humanity, then they are nothing more and nothing less than humans who do "God's will" (assuming one can rightly say that God has a "will" in any sense recognizable to humans -- anthropomorphism makes me nervous).

Who knows? Anything's possible. It would better, IMO, to start off with the assumption that none of these things exist or happen. If they actually do, hallelujah. If not, then one won't be disappointed and one won't have to go through a complicated feat of mental gymnastics to justify this state of affairs theologically. "Pray as if everything depends on God, but act as if everything depends on you."

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#238446 - 07/16/08 12:04 AM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: VLinvictus]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Denver, CO
Straight forward philosophy - sound and solid. For ME - to "act as if everything depends on me" gets me in trouble. but to "act to the best of my belief where I feel His leading" I can do. You may see it as same thing - maybe I'm quibbling over words (wouldn't be the first time, LOL)

As for the existance of angels, I have witnessed first hand, so that's a discussion that neither of us will convince the other of.

But what I truly have enjoyed - is our ability to share our beliefs openly - each accepting the other's beliefs as valid for them.

Thank you for having an outlook that always gives me reason to pause and examine for myself. \:\)

M


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#238449 - 07/16/08 12:50 AM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: MarkK]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
Since the original post included mention of angels...would it detract from the thread, to ask, to those who have personal experience with it, what color were they?

I had an experience where my wife and I were in the company of someone that identified herself as a spiritualist. This is not a judgment for or against the belief or philosophy, but she looked squarely at me, smiled, and said, 'You see angels don't you?" It so caught me off guard that I just responded without thinking, "Yes."

She then asked, "What color are they?" To which, I responded, "Blue." She shook her head, smiled a huge smile and walked away.

I had shared the experience with it many years ago with my wife. Color and all. So, it was an odd experience.

Is the color significant?

:-)


CD


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#238477 - 07/16/08 09:54 AM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: CDavid]
VLinvictus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: NY
Hmm. Interesting question.

Given the classical understanding of angels as spiritual beings (i.e., not material), then they do not absorb, reflect, or give off light of any wavelength. If they have the ability to manifest their presence in any sensory way at all, it would therefore seem likely that they could appear any color they wished or needed to.

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#238502 - 07/16/08 11:20 AM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: LW1527]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
Lance,

What qualifies me to answer you is that I have been there. I have had trouble believing that God loved me, and I still do.

But please let me make an observation you may not be able to hear now.

I am saying this as something that I heard rather than something that I am proficient in.

A radio psychiatrist whom I used to listen to profitably every day said several times that when we are very young, say 3 and 4, we look to our father on earth as god. We are formulating our idea of what God in heaven is like by what our earthly father is like. Well, if our earthly father is a SOB, then we think that the Father in Heaven must also be a SOB. We can't even help it. It gets hard-wired into our thinking. Then we later have to be re-taught what God is really like.

Puffer



Edited by pufferfish (07/16/08 11:21 AM)

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#238513 - 07/16/08 12:30 PM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: pufferfish]
hogan_dawg Offline
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Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Puffer said "...if our earthly father is a SOB, then we think that the Father in Heaven must also be a SOB. We can't even help it. It gets hard-wired into our thinking. Then we later have to be re-taught what God is really like."

Very astute and timely.

_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#238528 - 07/16/08 02:07 PM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: hogan_dawg]
VLinvictus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: NY
This assumes, of course, that the "Father in heaven" is not just in actuality an idealization of fatherhood in the first place.

This is what I meant about the metaphors we create to understand God. They're fine so long as they work and hold meaning and so long as they aren't mistakenly held up in place of That which they are intended to describe.

God is not really a "father" or a "king" or what-have-you. Rather, those are ideas in the human world that most people are familiar with and which were used to try to communicate something about how God is perceived to act or be. The notion of God as father is derived from the experience of real, human fathers, and for those who had at best troublesome relationships with their fathers this metaphor is of questionable value or use.

One could try to rehabilitate the father-metaphor by trying to congnitively sever God-as-father from whatever or however our real fathers have been. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's difficult and I'm not sure of the value in it. Much more profitable, I think, would be to construct new metaphors through which to understand and engage with God (however one comes to understand that word).

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#238532 - 07/16/08 02:20 PM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: VLinvictus]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: VLinvictus
Given the classical understanding of angels as spiritual beings (i.e., not material), then they do not absorb, reflect, or give off light of any wavelength. If they have the ability to manifest their presence in any sensory way at all, it would therefore seem likely that they could appear any color they wished or needed to.

Angels appeared in the old testament as regular people. (Read about Lot)
In the new testament we are told to show hospitality to strangers because sometimes we might be entertaining angels without knowing it (Heb 13:2).

Sound material to me ... or at least able to take that form.


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#238550 - 07/16/08 06:38 PM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: MarkK]
hogan_dawg Offline
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Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
VLinvictus said "This assumes, of course, that the "Father in heaven" is not just in actuality an idealization of fatherhood in the first place."

Hmmm.

Maybe it's the reverse of idealization: Maybe people felt an ineffable, infinite concept, a spiritually loving power, and it needs naming and describing in some way tribal people can understand. Tribal people understand family. So the Father in Heaven tag gets applied because it is the closest most powerful kin that would be understood by tribal people.

Sorry for the nitpick but the idealization part sounded just too much like Freud's idealization, which is nearly adolescent.




Edited by hogan_dawg (07/16/08 07:23 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#238570 - 07/16/08 08:30 PM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: hogan_dawg]
VLinvictus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: hogan_dawg

Maybe it's the reverse of idealization: Maybe people felt an ineffable, infinite concept, a spiritually loving power, and it needs naming and describing in some way tribal people can understand. Tribal people understand family. So the Father in Heaven tag gets applied because it is the closest most powerful kin that would be understood by tribal people.

Sorry for the nitpick but the idealization part sounded just too much like Freud's idealization, which is nearly adolescent.


Actually, the point about "father" being a metaphor to describe Something that couldn't otherwise be expressed or understood was what I said. ;\)

That doesn't mean, though, that "God" cannot at the same time be both "real" and a projection of human consciousness onto the cosmos. If one subscribes to the notion that all existence is at the fundamental root of all things a single organic Totality, there really isn't much practical difference between the two.

And Freud? Pulease! I was instead referencing Feuerbach. ;\)

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#238577 - 07/16/08 09:04 PM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: pufferfish]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
Originally Posted By: pufferfish
A radio psychiatrist whom I used to listen to profitably every day said several times that when we are very young, say 3 and 4, we look to our father on earth as god. We are formulating our idea of what God in heaven is like by what our earthly father is like. Well, if our earthly father is a SOB, then we think that the Father in Heaven must also be a SOB. We can't even help it. It gets hard-wired into our thinking. Then we later have to be re-taught what God is really like.Puffer


my experience of my earthly father is such that i never had any emotional connection to him whatsoever. so i guess i would be the exception to the rule as stated by the radio psychiatrist. that sounds like a good theory, but i don't feel personally that it applies to my experience.

growing up i never saw myself as a boy struggling to identify as maleness personified, so the 'father energy' that arises out of the jungian archetypal system as a metaphor for biological fatherliness never had any power over me. the lack of his positive attention did not cause me any grief. it was neither his negatory relationship or nor his non-relationship to me that affected me. i had assigned all power of the fatherly energy to my mother, whose approval i desperately sought for so many years.

so as a result it was rather to authoritative systems and institutions that i sublimated the father role and fatherly power. church, cops, mothers, priests, deans, presidents etc, spiritual writers and saints.

in my early 20's when i began to cultivate a personal relationship with god, it was in desparate hope that i would not have to make myself worthy of his love, but when i went thru my born again christian phase as part of my dis-ease, i did in fact go the route of striving to become worthy, attempting to undo the sense that i was deeply flawed [by original sin!] and i chose 'the imitation of christ' by thomas a kempis as my benchmark morality. this phase of my life really drove me deeper and deeper into my dis-ease, until finally i got into aa and began to experience god as salvific being and was then able to stop beating my head against the wall and just got sucked into the flow of his pure happening being.

so in that respect, i began to define god as a part-ner; in other words, he took me from being a-part from him/her/it, and made me into the part with him/her/it that i was always intended to be. he/she/it partnered me into the happening he is and took me out of the realm that divided us into two separate beings and planted me squarely in the kingdom. i came to understand that god as "I AM" is unity, not division. he is not in some lofty moral cloud casting disapproving glances from above, as some of the other human characters who dominated my life in my earlier formative life stages. i do not relate god to typical human being behavior.

to be sure humans beings, having arisen from the essence of god'sbeing, do embody characteristic that i project as attributes of god's being, but i am careful not to invest too much verity in them, because anything that seems like god is just a shadow in a dream.

as i became a father myself, i had to, as you say, reinterpret the model for my own children, and since i held no pre-existing bias in favor of contructing one way or another, i just followed my heart and allowed them to be all they felt they needed to be at any given point in their development, and i supported them totally unconditionally, and never reproached for doing something that apparently, according to someone's narrow opinion, breached moral code.

growing up i had a dad who did the best he could, but he did not father me in the way i learned to father, with complete acceptance. for today i do not seek father energy to guide my life, because i feel that since i have learned to parent myself well, the idea of division and the tension that emerges in the divided state between the two roles of the i-thou relationship, has dissolved into a happy union where, simply and unapologetically, i just get to 'be', where all the rest is rest.

your brother in recovery,

ron

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#238579 - 07/16/08 09:10 PM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: Sans Logos]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
For a screen name meaning "without words," you sure put em together nicely, Sans Logos...


:-)


CD


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#238584 - 07/16/08 09:47 PM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: CDavid]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...


aw shucks, thanx david ;\)

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#238885 - 07/19/08 12:39 AM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: Sans Logos]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
LW, I hope that some of these replies to your post make some sense to you and that you can come to realize that any God that would see you as "unclean" and abandon you because of what was never in any way your fault is no God fit to be called such.

Posts like yours here put me in conflict between the desire to reach out to someone who suffers the same thought processes I once suffered from and the desire to stay on good terms with other survivors who may take something I say as an attack on their beliefs, so if anyone does feel I am attacking their beliefs or religion, please know that it is not personal and that I am here to support you whatever your spiritual beliefs are.

So LW, I know you are not God and neither am I, so how can we know and so forth, but by the same logic, how can we know because of something written in a book that God is someone who creates imperfect beings then rejects them when they follow the wrong religion or somehow fail in some other way and lets the fallen suffer for eternity?


LW, I have suffered from feeling exactly the way you have expressed feeling in your post and the turning point for me was when I stopped listening to these ideas and started allowing myself to think critically about them---something I was taught to think of as the devil deceiving me.

To this day I still have a hard time thinking of myself as clean and innocent because of my rejection of the beliefs I was taught at such a young age, but I can bear witness to the fact that when I consciously hold those beliefs up to rational scrutiny, they melt away and leave me feeling as clean and blameless as the day I was born, and if that's all the devils trickery, then how in the world am I to blame for being so well deceived?

I just can't believe for a minute when I consciously think about it that I am really dirty or some "fallen soul" because I failed some test of faith that goes against all I have learned about life and the world.

I hope these words do more good than harm, but like ron's sig line says, "That's my story and I'm stickin to it! \:\)

_________________________
My Story
My Art

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#238901 - 07/19/08 07:50 AM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: blueshift]
hogan_dawg Offline
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Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
LW you said "No unclean thing can enter His Kingdom"

I don't see you as unclean any more than I can see myself as unclean after what happened to me. Maybe I haven't been as critical on myself as Christianity demands. But if you and I can both understand how children are overpowered by perpetrators and are not making choices about being abused, maybe God can too. Maybe what happened to us isn't OUR crime?

Either way, whether you select Christianity or Buddhism or Atheism, you're going to have to get over the 'unclean' perspective, or fix it, cause it's going to cause you grief regardless of your religious take. You can't thrive if you feel you're unclean.

My wife, after she was raped, at 15, took showers to clean herself. I remember doing the same taking baths to clean myself. I bet there are a lot of little kids using water to clean themselves thinking they are unclean too. The whole act feels like a filthy act. I don't know what one can do to cure that feeling except to use your reason and your smarts to convince yourself that the filth belonged to someone else.

I think the unclean feeling now, about what happened back then, is about feeling guilty or shame-filled. As kids, we take on the guilt and shame that the perpetrator can not, or will not, feel. We 'invert' or 'reverse' the application of guilt from where it properly belongs (the perpetrator) onto ourselves (the victim). Such inversions or reversals are common - kids take responsibility for their parents divorcing, or for their parents fighting. It's just the way kids think. They think they're responsible for the things that happen to them.

BTW the inversion or reversal of guilt probably happens with adult victims of rape too. But I'd offer that it's probably due to cultural thinking that blames the victim for rape.

I hope, either way, you become sure, within your deepest self, that you're not at fault for what happened to you. I can only assure you that I personally do not think you are unclean and I do not feel you have anything to feel shame or guilty about - again, you were just a kid.

I'm with Blueshift "Dump any spirituality that rejects you". Just please make sure that you know in your soul that there's nothing about you that merits rejecting.



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/19/08 11:54 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#241929 - 08/02/08 10:54 AM Re: God Loves Most, but Not Me [Re: LW1527]
petercorbett Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2439
Loc: TEXAS
Hi again LW1527'
yep I've had the same feelings and still do.
As a Catholic boy, and while I was abused,and I went into a Catholic orphanage/home, we were there from grades 5-8, we lived there durnin the normal school year and "home" to who ever wanted to put up with you for the 2 & half months of summer vacation, as a boy while all this victimization was going on to me, persons who abused me were strangers just looking for someone like me, young & alone, I never wanted to go home, so I was always sneaking rides on the Boston subway system and that's where I got nailed many times. Now at the orphanage/home I was always praying to our mother in heaven (the blessed virgin) to keep me safe and to protect me, I was really into her didn't think that our heavenly mother would ever let me down. HA What ever made me think that if my earthly mother was abusing me and not protecting me, my heavenally mother would. I "retired" from my religion many years ago. Jus who's God ahould we listen to anyway? Hope that you are doing well.

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
A very humble alumni of the WOR Dahlonega, GA.
May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
Hope Springs, 2010.


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