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#234027 - 06/27/08 09:09 AM Re: For those Angry at God [Re: frost]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6511
Loc: Terminus
That's cool Frost. That's your experience.

My only questions:

1) How do you define "fear of God?"

2)
Quote:
I came to recognize that I was "categorically failed by what I believed God was."


What did you think God was and how did it/he fail you?



My only comment:

1) I don't believe Christianity is "applied." I actually can't think of any single instance where/when I can say one applies it. You either have Jesus in your heart or you don't. I dont ever veiw Christianity is a "philosophy" or "method"....ever.



Thank you for hopping-in.

_________________________
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#234046 - 06/27/08 10:29 AM Re: For those Angry at God [Re: Still]
Sans Logos Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
initial comment: this is a really intriguing thread, it seems to bring out the worst in all of us, or at least challenges us to hold up our own ideals to a greater light.

none of us wants to recast our own very personal experiences thru the filter of another person's biased point of view. rob, i do not mean this as an attack, but at some point i have to ask, regarding your beliefs, who are you trying to convince, us or you? i would really like to get to know you and understand you, but i feel it not possible because of my own past experiences with religiosity. my question to you is valid, because my impression upon reading your commentaries are that your god is standing somewhere above you with a set of commandments ready at any moment to bring crashing down on your head, rather than walking along side of you arm in arm. i have to say i get an admiring chuckle every time i see your signature, because the 'born again christian ron' would have raised a shaking fist into the air with a hearty 'right on'! the 'ex-born again christian ron' see the statement now as a glass half-full mindset. but then again, i have fired the whole post a.d. christian senate that used to sit in my head and replaced it with a single person.

and not saying i am right, just telling you about me, but all the rhetoric you use smacks of a kind of christian fundamentalism lash that has left its scars on me over the 55 years of my experince with it.

admittedly, for a period of time in my life i used the whole jerry falwell/pat robertson camp as a benchmark for my own impossible moral standard; i used it to browbeat and berate myself for not being able to live down to all the expectations of the biblical writers. i just knew that i was not trying hard enough, and if i just kept pressing on and not looking back once having placed my hand to the plough, i would fight the good fight, run the race, and would find approval.

where was christ in all this, my friend, my savior, my redeemer? he couldn't get close enough to me; he'd have to make an appointment, but chances are, he's keep getting shuffled to the bottom of the deck. take a number jesus.....

one day, when i got into recovery, i realized that i had to let go of my systemic religious thinking, and just let god be god. and that was a brave leap for me, because that is the one thing ultimately that 'they' get you with: to walk away from your 'walk' would lead to the ultimate damnation, and is the proverbial sin against the holy spirit.

i didn't realize until i got into recovery that god is not interested in religion and its cliques. i slowly but surely began to accept my own frail, human nature with its tendency to sink, and one by one started to remove the chains that bound me to such a closed minded way of living.

in the process i become 'vulnerable' to other broader perspectives such as the rev mel white, that were not necessarily endorsed by the fundamentalist camp. and through that came to realize that i mostly needed saved from myself as a product of systemic indoctrination.

i became less afraid of god, and the old fear became replaced with a healthy respect of him. human dogma has no bearing for me on how my relationship with god measures up. so even tho i have chosen for my own personal with the divine, to wrap god in a human form in the person of jesus, i know that that is not the only way to find salvation [from one's self]. these outer figures are only models of who we are inside at our highest and best, and that's the beckoning finger i chose to be led by.

my words were not meant to offend, and i hope that they are received in the spirit that they are intended, simply sharing my truth with you.

ron

_________________________
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  2. ReClaiming Now
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#234069 - 06/27/08 12:34 PM Re: For those Angry at God [Re: Still]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Robbie,
Relaxxxxx!!!!!
If you had read the versus that I gave, they have nothing to do with making someone equal to or replacing Jesus.
There is only one GOD and HE's not down here with us.
Also he gave us all free will to accept HIM or to reject HIM.
HE still choose to died for all of us.
your brother in CHRIST---Mike---

_________________________
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-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

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#234072 - 06/27/08 12:45 PM Re: For those Angry at God [Re: michael banks]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6511
Loc: Terminus
Originally Posted By: michael banks
Robbie,
Relaxxxxx!!!!!


I'm really not on edge about any of this. Completely calm. Maybe i write otherwise? I don't know. Sometimes rebuttals seem tense? *shrug*

_________________________
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#234089 - 06/27/08 01:17 PM Re: For those Angry at God [Re: Sans Logos]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6511
Loc: Terminus
Originally Posted By: Sans Logos
none of us wants to recast our own very personal experiences thru the filter of another person's biased point of view. rob, i do not mean this as an attack, but at some point i have to ask, regarding your beliefs, who are you trying to convince, us or you? i would really like to get to know you and understand you, but i feel it not possible because of my own past experiences with religiosity.


Well...would you agree that:

1) there are AMPLE and regular attacks and slams on Christian faith and Christians here and in the media? If not, I can dig up hair-curling examples. I think we saw one here at MS yesterday with some pretty rough elements.

I mean, when someone says "I fucking hate Jesus" I don't think it too wild an idea to offer another survivor's perspective on same?

Furthermore, since Christianity is regularly blamed for CSA (which it clearly, in-arguably is blamed), don't you think I ought to at least attempt to be clear that my Christianity does not contain elements routinely present in CSA cases?

I DO feel, very strongly, that Christianity is targeted as a category quite unfairly. I'll go on about categories in another reply if you wish to know what I mean.

2) the "Spirituality and Survivors" forum just might be a place for spiritual discussion and arguments surrounding stuff here? I know that's a stretch, but gee wiz.... \:\) ?...or should it be a place to complain and attack?

3) that there are big bunches of misunderstandings and variations of what is called Christianity?

4) that if I have a view that may be helpful to my brothers in healing, wouldn't I be negligent in not floating out there?

I was speaking to a Mod recently. We discussed the fact that the "Spirituality and Survivors" forum was intended as a platform for (hold yer hat), spiritual discussions. It was directly compared (directly) to the existential rationale for a "Gay" forum. BTW: I've not seen any attacks on gays in that forum. I'm sure they have existed, but certainly not with the regular challenges and attacks on Christianity.

I'm certain that there are "idiological positions" described and taken in the Gay Forum. If I don't give a hoot in hell about these issues, I don't go there. Its never shoved down my throat.

It seems as if you feel that by posting my postion and clarification, I'm shoving it down your throat.

Quote:
my question to you is valid, because my impression upon reading your commentaries are that your god is standing somewhere above you with a set of commandments ready at any moment to bring crashing down on your head, rather than walking along side of you arm in arm.


THIS one realy has me confuzzled. Please show me a citation leading to that conclusion....porfavore!...seriously....PLEEZ show me!


Quote:
none of us wants to recast our own very personal experiences thru the filter of another person's biased point of view.


1) I totally fail to see how and where I ask anyone to do this.

2) that very thing does in fact go on here at MS all the time. We write-out our stories, we exchange viewpoints, we offer advice, we compare experiences, we seek wisdom from some the the professionals here and those whom have progressed greatly in their healing.

Here at MS, we offer POVs and we ofter food for thought in hopes of changing their POV. Dont believe me? See what happens when someone comes to MS thinking out loud that survivors are destined to molest children. What do you suppose happens?


BTW: I think you entirely missed the subject and focal points of my original post.




Edited by Robbie Brown (06/27/08 02:05 PM)
_________________________
When the phone don't ring, I'll know its you.

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#234111 - 06/27/08 03:20 PM Re: For those Angry at God [Re: Still]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown

I was speaking to a Mod recently. We discussed the fact that the "Spirituality and Survivors" forum was intended as a platform for (hold yer hat), spiritual discussions.


how well i know... it was at my suggestion to the MOD at the time Wuamei that the name be changed from, at the time "Religion and Survivors" to what it is today, "Spirituality and Survivors". the change was requested specifically to escape the rantings of religious zealots who used it as a soapbox for impressing their own viewpoint on the entire community.

here's the original thread request

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#234138 - 06/27/08 07:23 PM Re: For those Angry at God [Re: Still]
frost Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 1377
Loc: Eh?
Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown
How do you define "fear of God?"


To me, God represents that which cannot be explained. That which man cannot fathom.

When I was a child, I was taught to a solid understanding of God's wrath and how God dealt with sinners. I also feared God in such a way that I knew I couldn't ever 'live up' to his expectations (now what I call false needs).

Today I believe that God's neediness is based on man-made impressions. If God were all powerful this entity certainly wouldn't have basic human needs like relationship and a series of hoops to pass through in order to 'stay in the good books'.

Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown
What did you think God was and how did it/he fail you?


Please note Rob that I was failed by what I believed God was.

One one hand God was the all-powerful being whom saw every move I ever made, including all of the sinfulness that I now call 'sexual abuse'. So to be fair, I also categorically failed God's expectations by not stopping the abuse.

On the other hand, God was touted to me as some sort of all powerful Saviour. He was somehow going to do what I couldn't do: save me.

I can't even venture a guess as to how many times I prayed, begged, even cried out for God's forgiveness and received silence in return. I later was taught that "God works through circumstances, the bible and the church". So I sought answers from the bible which only ever seemed to tell me how condemned and royally fucked I was. I also sought answers from the church at one point, only to find out later my confidence was betrayed.

Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown
I don't believe Christianity is "applied." I actually can't think of any single instance where/when I can say one applies it. You either have Jesus in your heart or you don't. I dont ever veiw Christianity is a "philosophy" or "method"....ever.


Christianity is indeed 'applied'. In this statement you simplify what could be considered the essence of Christianity. "You either have Jesus in your heart or you don't."

Unfortunately that statement in and of itself carries varying amounts of weight depending on where it is used. There are constantly strings attached to it. For example, what do you believe happens to me if I don't have Jesus in my heart? It can be perceived as though the very definition of Christianity is based on this one fundamental judgment.

I hereby reject it.
~Brian

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#234171 - 06/27/08 09:09 PM Re: For those Angry at God [Re: frost]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6511
Loc: Terminus
.



Edited by Robbie Brown (06/27/08 10:14 PM)
_________________________
When the phone don't ring, I'll know its you.

The Aftermath Video

My Absolute Hero!

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#234175 - 06/27/08 09:22 PM Re: For those Angry at God [Re: Still]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6511
Loc: Terminus
SORRY...not supposed to talke about mod actions



Edited by Robbie Brown (06/27/08 09:26 PM)
_________________________
When the phone don't ring, I'll know its you.

The Aftermath Video

My Absolute Hero!

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#234181 - 06/27/08 09:29 PM Re: For those Angry at God [Re: Still]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Denver, CO
for what little it may be worth, Rob - I'm in you're corner on this one.

Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown
when Christianity is taken for a red-neck truck-dragging, not a word is spoken nor deleted


it does seem more than a trifle ... off balance. but even God's holy Word gave warning of this. so I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised...

still hurts like **** though.

M


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