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#233840 - 06/26/08 03:47 PM Re: For those Angry at God [Re: michael banks]
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Originally Posted By: michael banks
Robbie,
There are guidelines for people who oversee the the internal affairs of the church. 1 TIM 3:1-6 and Titus 1:5-9.


These do say that "an elder must be blameless" and deacon be of sound, true nature. However, gievn that no humans are free from sin and super-human (above reality of human sin-nature) they are all destined to sin...No?

An elder must be "blameless." At the point where he is discovered to be of blame, he is no longer an elder. he must be removed from position. I cant (so far) find anywhere the bible says (NT) that we need to structure our church with ANY hirearchy whatsoever.

Structure and given-authority were a very significant factor of all churches back then. Clearly evolved from the Jew's structures. If we DO assign a leadership hirearchy, then yeah...we ought to adhere to those rules.

But again though, if we put "faith" in people, we are destined to be dissapointed and judged by the world. I've seen plenty of instances where people put faith in their church leaders to "be good" and "be above reproach." And when the leaders fall in disgrace, the organized church is in shambles, some followers are discouraged in their faith and the outside world condemns us as hypocites and liars.

Because the Catholic church puts ample faith in people, they are vulnerable to summary judgement and world condemnation as soon as one of their "people" commit horrible sin.

When Rev Haggard was caught in sin, the media and enemies of the Christ rushed to point out to the world that Christianity was all BS. Why and How could they do that? Because some/many put super-human faith in a PERSON.

If we DONT put faith in people and their performance, we will never get caught in those train-wrecks.

BTW: I define Faith and Expectations quite differently.



Edited by Robbie Brown (06/26/08 04:01 PM)
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#233851 - 06/26/08 04:43 PM Re: For those Angry at God [Re: LW1527]
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lw1527, thanks for the opportunity to share on this topic. my take is this [and it is just mine, but you posed a question which elicits a response in me, so i will share; and btw, i am neither frowning or typing angrily into the computer]

god neither allows nor disallows things to happen to people. it happens because we live in world that is in the process of evolving. there is no eye in the sky pulling any strings. it is all out of control. shit happens, but any shit that happens to us is happening to god as well. that is the whole point of christ. if it touches us, it touches him.

i am not 'a' christian, whatever that is. i do not subscribe to specific institutional religious beliefs. however, i am christian in the sense that in my years of searching for the divine in all things, christ as savior and redeemer of my tendency to 'fall down down down' is the best answer to how thing can go 'up up up' at all.

and is it foolish to look for a messiah in all this crazy mish-mash, this world of shit? i think not since all we have to do is look back behind us and see throughout his/herstory every race and culture reaching out beyond themselves to understand the same kinds of questions that we face today.

some far far greater minds than mine have offered profound insights on the topic of suffering and its purposes. there is an excellent book on the subject of suffering from the christian point of view. i studied it during my time i lived as a trappist monk at gethsemani monastery. written by dom von zeller it is called approach to suffering. unfortunately it is out of print, but if you ever get a chance to visit gethsemani for a retreat, it would be worth going just to check out this publication and some of the others that are written on this topic. modern day mystics are still interested in it, and amonst their numbers i include all of us here.

ron

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#233859 - 06/26/08 05:36 PM Re: For those Angry at God [Re: FormerTexan]
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Rob - right on for starting this thread (or bumping it) and affirming your own experience and view and feelings. That is great.

The post I made actually followed a long conversation with a friend from MS, part of which was about how religion becomes divisive here so I would like to state very clearly - I don't in any way feel part of a "side." Alot of the people who responded to that post were Christians who were able to affirm my safety to speak up here. I definitely do not feel like I am not on their side and they not on mine. I feel much more connected to them now.

But Andy, I also want to make clear about something. The prevalence of Christianity here does not make me feel unsafe. The feeling that I can't say certain things here because it might offend people, does.


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#233861 - 06/26/08 06:17 PM Re: For those Angry at God [Re: Still]
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I'm confused!

First I thank you for this post, Rob. It definitely, for me is very thought provoking. And that is something good for me, and probably for many of us.

Yes I do belive in God, I consider myself a Christian. And I know that God did not, as you say "make it happen." I know he is sad also when traumatic events happen to people, to countries, to the nation.

But I am confused by the statement that God did not "allow it to happen." Yes, we all have free will, but God can do anything, he can perform miracles, he can heal the sick and can do whatever he feels or wants to do. Then in my feeble mind, He/God DID let CSA happen to me. I don't blame him or hold him at fault. But I do know that he could have stopped it.

Am I wrong here or am I just not seeing or understanding something?

Ken

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#233866 - 06/26/08 06:28 PM Re: For those Angry at God [Re: KENKEN]
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Ken,

I think I see what you are saying. I agree God did allow it to happen, but that to me is once again on the basis of free moral agency. In other words, God is not going to step or send an angel in between two people and shout "No!" Yes, under certain biblical circumstances, God intervened to show that He is God (I.E. Daniel and the lion's den, parting the Red Sea, etc). However, it is not God's way to come up to us and direct our every choice, including those of our perpetrators.

I have this theory that if we took a poll of the population in general and asked how many of them would want God interfering with their choices of today, most of them would say not at all. They would want the control over their choices, they would not want God making their choices for them. By the way, that applies to everyone across the board, even ones who commit crimes whom we do not know about. Otherwise it would be partiality.

Andy



Edited by FormerTexan (06/26/08 06:29 PM)
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#233877 - 06/26/08 07:29 PM Re: For those Angry at God [Re: KENKEN]
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Originally Posted By: KENKEN
I'm confused!
...But I am confused by the statement that God did not "allow it to happen." Yes, we all have free will, but God can do anything, he can perform miracles, he can heal the sick and can do whatever he feels or wants to do. Then in my feeble mind, He/God DID let CSA happen to me. I don't blame him or hold him at fault. But I do know that he could have stopped it.


Sorry for the confusion Ken. I was not clear there. I went looking for this answer myself off and on through the years. I had to given that I use to pray to him to stop the sexual abuse and the physical beatings from my father....and the fear of being killed by him in my sleep. He never stopped it for me.

Then I prayed for him to kill them...kill the perps and kill my father. He did not kill anyone. So I prayed for him to kill me...and here I am tapping keys 30+ years later.

The way I should have stated that he "did not allow it to happen" ought to have been "he would not disallow it."

To visualize it beyond myself, I looked at the hollocaust. If he did not hop-in there and change what we saw, why was he gonna stop things for me?

The other aspect that I see is that I have no idea what he actually may actually have stopped. I am willing to accept that I don't neccesarily know everything God has planned.

For example, there was a USA Army platoon in Viet Nam that was in the jungle for WAY too long. They were tired and in a generally pissy mood. HQ radioed in to them to clear an area of the jungle of a certain large diameter and do it now. The soldiers questioned the LT why they ought to do it and refused to do what seemed like more busy-work. HQ radioed again and asked if the area was clear of trees, etc. The LT had to say "no, it was not." He then found out that the entire region was to be napalmed that night as there was a vast concentration of NVA active there. The clearing was to be the landing zone for helicopters to extract that platoon. So the end result was no napalm attack, and no extraction of the tired platoon.

I accept that there are things I can't control in life. There are aspects of God's world and reach that I will never comprehend, and to attempt otherwise would be futile.

Sorry...long way to say "he did not dissallow it."





Edited by Robbie Brown (06/26/08 07:29 PM)
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#233894 - 06/26/08 08:22 PM Re: For those Angry at God [Re: testingWaters]
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Originally Posted By: testingWaters
Rob - right on for starting this thread (or bumping it) and affirming your own experience and view and feelings. That is great.

The post I made actually followed a long conversation with a friend from MS, part of which was about how religion becomes divisive here so I would like to state very clearly - I don't in any way feel part of a "side." Alot of the people who responded to that post were Christians who were able to affirm my safety to speak up here. I definitely do not feel like I am not on their side and they not on mine. I feel much more connected to them now.

But Andy, I also want to make clear about something. The prevalence of Christianity here does not make me feel unsafe. The feeling that I can't say certain things here because it might offend people, does.


Matt,

Just so you know, I did not post this as a counter to your post. I've wanted to say all of this for quite some time now. I looked at the stregnth and conviction and said to myself "its time."

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#233911 - 06/26/08 09:03 PM Re: For those Angry at God [Re: Still]
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TW,

"But Andy, I also want to make clear about something. The prevalence of Christianity here does not make me feel unsafe. The feeling that I can't say certain things here because it might offend people, does."

Pardon me please for I do not wish to over-generalize.

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#233928 - 06/26/08 09:33 PM Re: For those Angry at God [Re: testingWaters]
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Originally Posted By: testingWaters
... The prevalence of Christianity here does not make me feel unsafe. The feeling that I can't say certain things here because it might offend people, does.


Matt,

Is that limited to Christians or inclusive of other categories as well?

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#233932 - 06/26/08 09:37 PM Re: For those Angry at God [Re: Still]
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More specifically?


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