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#23287 - 05/23/03 12:50 AM Jump bitch jump could be a trigger
Nathan LaChine Offline
Webmaster
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 5379
Loc: Washington State
Ok I am sure this will probly cause some flack but o well. About six months to a year ago a women on the Narrows bridge in Washington was going to jump from it. She was up their all day held traffic up for hours and hours. After three or four hours some people started chanting "Jump bitch jump". After it was all over the mayor of Seattle stated he was appalled at the people on the bridge. I think if I was their and after hours of the police trying to talk he down I would have probly said "JUmp bitch jump" also. I feel if she really wanted to kill her self she would have done it in her hause. So I think she was just being a drama queen or for lack of a better word being a bitch! What would you guys have done if you where their? Do you guys think I would have been wrong to say "Jump bitch jump"?


lots of love, Nathan


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#23288 - 05/23/03 01:11 AM Re: Jump bitch jump could be a trigger
tone Offline
Member

Registered: 04/22/03
Posts: 41
Loc: Canada
i think you are being hard on that woman. i think you are right when you say that she wanted attention. Not everybody asks for help in the same way. That was her way, i think you could show alittle more compassion. After all a lot of us here and me in particular don't know how to ask for help. I have been so many times on the ledge of that bridge and nobody came to rescue me. It is one of the biproduct of television, where the person on the ledge is surrounded by hundreds of people and a long lost love comes and rescues her and they live happily ever after. Who knows what she was thinking , i hope you never find yourself on that bridge.
take care, tone

_________________________
Exchange On a visit to England by Ghandi
Reporter:"what do you think of Western Civilisation,Mr.Ghandi?"
Ghandi: I think it would be a good idea.

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#23289 - 05/23/03 02:06 PM Re: Jump bitch jump could be a trigger
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Nathan,
To be honest I would have joined you the chant, then after words I would have beat myself up for being such a bastard. Yes it probley was a cry for help, A BIG CRY!!!! Just keep in mind that the harder it is to ask for help the more "drama" one might cause in asking for it. But I would have been one of them chating, hell I would have made a sign. Ok guys Im not proud of the fact just being honest.
James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#23290 - 05/23/03 04:08 PM Re: Jump bitch jump could be a trigger
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Guys Guilty too:

I dont know but does it have something to do with our SA that drives us to find those that are truly in need and join the Herd so to speak.

Is it our drive to appear and be part of the so called "Normal" section of society. I dont know. When I was younger I did a lot of things I am not proud of to prove my manhood to others. Manhood-what a bloody joke that is. It is too bad we do not have the wisdom of maturity and tolerance when we are young.

When i look back the people who hurt the most with the exception of my perps and clients were my youthful peers.

I did draw the line on anyone attacking fellow hustlers or those that sought belonging at nite around us.

Remember this post if we are ever in a position to possibly help someone

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#23291 - 05/23/03 04:53 PM Re: Jump bitch jump could be a trigger
JamesMichael Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/24/02
Posts: 134
Nathan,

What's behind your question?

JM


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#23292 - 05/23/03 04:59 PM Re: Jump bitch jump could be a trigger
Sleepy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 288
Loc: Arizona, USA
I would like to say that I would take the high road and refrain from saying anything. But nobody knows what they would do when a mob/group mentality kicks in. I remember watching a program on the Discovery Channel about the riots in LA in the early 90s. The program was about how people do things that they would never do when they're in a large group. For instance, people began to steal and loot stores when otherwise they never would steal on their own. When you're in a group you don't have to shoulder any guilt or blame. So it would be easy to say "Jump Bitch Jump" when there are others around. But if you were just a single person you wouldn't do it. At least I know I wouldn't do it then.

But I'm with Tone. This post is a downer. We all need to show more compassion. Well, that's my two cents.
Mike

_________________________
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end."
--Ursula K. Le Guin

"Mental health is a commitment to reality at all times."
--M. Scott Peck

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#23293 - 05/23/03 07:32 PM Re: Jump bitch jump could be a trigger
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
I've heard that when someone wants to kill themselves, the way they want to set out to do it is indicative of thier problem and mental state. Like if someone does it in private it means one thing, and if they jump off a building it means something else, shotgun to the head, something else, etc.

When I told my t I was suicidal up till 10 years ago, it was really important to her to hear which way I was going to do it.

I think some people want to punish others, some hate themselves, some are in pain, some are angry, etc. etc., I'll bet Ken Singer or RichardNYC know what each one means, although I know it says on the main page they aren't online counselors. Who knows, maybe for some reason it isn't a good idea to make this information part of public knowledge.

Sounds to me like whatever someones's delema is that they have to do it in public and hold up traffic is not part of your specific trauma, and the alone kind of suicide might be, you should really tell your therapist about this, I think it would help your recovery. I think a good t will know more about the nature of your individual pain based on this post.

Peace
MO Healing


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#23294 - 05/23/03 07:32 PM Re: Jump bitch jump could be a trigger
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
About two years ago, I was in therapy and recovering, my wife and I were in Dublin.
One early evening a crowd gathered on the O'Connel bridge as a girl about 15 clung to a rail with a backpack full of bricks on her back.
The Police and all the services were there, divers were in the river and everything.

Some people in the crowd, mainly gangs of drunk lads, started to shout "jump - jump"

We walked away, and I don't know to this day what happened to the girl.

She still haunts me, and so does the thought that people could behave like that.

But I do understand the herd mentality of a gang of lads out on the lash, I've been there and seen it, done it.
And it grieves me to know that those lads, when sober and out of the group are probably decent guys.

Having the strength to be an individual is something to be proud of, and something we as survivors seem to achieve.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#23295 - 05/23/03 08:01 PM Re: Jump bitch jump could be a trigger
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Nathan:

You said you probably would have joined in the chant "Jump Bitch Jump!" (Evidently you're not the only one!) You didn't say you would have. You also asked if that would have been wrong for you to do. Maybe you were venting, trying to figure yourself out, whatever.

At any rate, I have to say this:

The way I felt yesterday during my panic attack on the road with all the crazy drivers in the pouring rain...

...if I had somehow discovered that the cause of all that was some woman acting like she was going to jump off a bridge...

...then I think at that moment I would have been at the least sorely tempted to yell "Jump Bitch Jump!" \:o

I'm not proud of that but I'm being honest.

And I certainly understand Nathan's feelings about this.

I confess at times I get very frustrated with people that play drama queen and make a big deal out of problems that not only don't seem that big to me but wouldn't to most people in the normal scheme of things. Stuff like my new Corvette got scratched or the IRS ripped me off or I have a flu
or the girl I've been dating for two weeks who is about my 50th girlfriend broke up with me or I didn't get that raise or whatever.

I'm not saying these things aren't important to that hypothetical person.

I'm simply saying that when I look at my experience & the experiences of men like us here & others who have gone thru such traumas often series of them, with all the attendant symptoms & dysfunctions, their problems, especially if that's the worst of them, don't seem like much to whine about much less kill yourself over. If that's what this hypothetical person actually has any intention of doing.

Now I have no clue what the problems were for the woman on that bridge. She may have had deep problems & been genuinely suicidal, and I hope I would have been sympathetic had I been there.

As some have said here who knows what we would do in a situation like that especially if we've never been in one before. Or even if we have. I haven't thank God.

I would like to think that in whatever condition I was in if this happened I would do what I think I would do at my best:

See if there was any way I could help, make phone calls or something, just pray & stay out of the way, whatever.

As Dave says that's part of what being a survivor,
and a thriver, is about.

OK I'm rambling.

Actually I'm finding this post very thot-provoking. And emotion-provoking as well.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#23296 - 05/24/03 11:49 AM Re: Jump bitch jump could be a trigger
Thad Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 1752
Loc: Oakland, CA
My mother was suicidal - I still wince at drama from any woman - and a young friend of mine came to stay with us for a week when his mother killed herself so in one way I sort of lived through the aftermath with him.

I don't think any of us can know what goes on in a person's mind - the pain and even the stupid cries for help that this bridge incident might have been - but I know that there are those around her that would also suffer greatly if she jumped.

We are quick to judge others - their motives and whether they are worthy - We do it all the time on TV and with public pre-trial publicity - it's pre-judgement - prejudice - something I expected all the time because I was a fat kid who knew that he was a "freak of nature" and didn't deserve to be accepted - I was suicidal, tried twice - at age 7 and at 14 - were they a cry for help? I dunno - I know I did not think I deserved to live -

I wonder if some people judge others because they are afraid to be judged themselves. I often felt that my being fat was a public statement of how screwed up I was for everyone to judge - whereas others hid their freakness better. How we survive the hurt others do to us is a mystery - I don't think I would want to join the crowd, though - guess I'm rambling - ....t

_________________________
"..this place isn't a discussion forum..it's a portal..." Lupin
"The truth will set you free, but first it will probably piss you off." dwf's AA sponsor.

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#23297 - 05/24/03 01:59 PM Re: Jump bitch jump could be a trigger
Nathan LaChine Offline
Webmaster
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 5379
Loc: Washington State
Kind of interesting how the thread has turned out. Some of you guys have leaned to the fact that it is harder to be your self if you are in a group setting. If the group on the bridge is chanting "Jump bitch jump" and she does jump should you be held by the police since you where chanting it? In a group should be hold everyone accountable?

James I am not sure what my question behind this thread really is. I know how I feel when it comes to people taking their own life. I have noticed tho lately I have this weird sense of humor or should I say not really caring. Shit that really does not do a good job of stating how I feel. I guess it is like don't know don't care to a point. I was wondering if anyone else feels this way? Wondering if this feeling comes from being abused, if it was one of my ways of living through it?

Lately I have been trying to rediscovery my self. Some of the things or should I say ways I act I am wondering if they are left overs from my abuse. I trying to fig which one of my behaviors am from my abuse and learn to over come them.

One of the biggest issues that I have right now is my feelings of human life. Ok before I go into this one please please everyone this is how I feel I have no thoughts of acting on this. With that said I feel that human life means nothing. If I where to talk a life it would be no different in my mind to when I go hunting and take a dears life. I have no regret over the death of deer and I would have no regret over the death of a human life. Now PLEASE PLEASE know that this is how I feel and that I would never think of taking a human life unless there was a reason too.

Hmmmmm that last part did not come out right. Shit I know guys I am going on and on. Ok for me I could take a life if the A hurt my wife or me, B hurt people I love, C someone every touched my brothers, D some hurts my loved ones. I am sure you guys know what I mean by hurt I don't mean normal stuff I mean like broke legs or something like that.

Ok I am going to end it their. Like I said please please don't think that I am going to hurt anyone guy. Sorry about all this please don't think that I..... stuff but the last person that I told though I was going to act on them.


Lots of love, Nathan


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#23298 - 05/25/03 01:39 PM Re: Jump bitch jump could be a trigger
guy43 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 450
Loc: Minnesota
It's really a scary thing to see the mob mentality in action. Resisting doing the wrong thing in that environment has got to be one of the hardest things to do. But it does speak to one's core values: is it ok to harm another person or wish harm on them?

I'd ask the same question again, where are you going with this Nathan? I do think I hear you talking in an abstract manner, not something you'd do in real life. We do have the right to protect ourselves and family and property.

Interesting where this could go.

jer


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#23299 - 05/25/03 03:53 PM Re: Jump bitch jump could be a trigger
Sleepy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 288
Loc: Arizona, USA
I think what I'm starting to get out of this thread is that I need to start listening to my own feelings. So often I've never trusted my own feelings that I've always looked to others to tell me how to feel. And certainly within the context of the mob mentality I would have join right in, despite what my inner voice might have been telling me.

Maybe this behavior was simply a sense of self-preservation? I never allowed myself to "feel" anything and for sure to never allow the "real" me to emerge. Because when you put your real self on the line it's a great risk. People can make fun of you and really hurt you emotionally. And with a couple of bad experiences you know that it's safer to not let yourself be understood. So I kind of felt like I've been a great actor, and no one had a clue what I really thought. Heck, I wouldn't even allow myself to cry during a tear-jerker movie! So to differ from the mob takes a lot of courage because you're putting yourself on the line for all to see.

Or maybe this is all a cruel personality quirk on my own part. But I know that when I don't listen to my gut feelings things usually work out worse for me in the end. Since I joined this site in October and restarted therapy, I've started to gain the confidence to really listen to myself. The unconditional support here has helped a lot. And listening to myself is a bit of relief, actually. So I feel grateful to be overcoming these problems. Hopfully in the end I'll become a more "genuine" person who responds from the wealth within, rather than put up a facade.

Anyway, I hope I wasn't too wordy.
Mike

_________________________
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end."
--Ursula K. Le Guin

"Mental health is a commitment to reality at all times."
--M. Scott Peck

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#23300 - 05/25/03 09:07 PM Re: Jump bitch jump could be a trigger
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Nathan, from your posts here I get the impression that you are a very loving guy. You end your posts with: "lots of love". Not many young men feel free to say that so openly, not even to people in their lives that they do love.

A human life is a lot more than a deer or any animal. We humans have our hopes, our dreams of the future, our ambitions. We are the only animal that is self-determining. A dog can't decide to be a police officer. But he can be trained to do things for his police officer who is his master. Animals can sit down and decide that they want to be men of integrity, be more compassionate and determine that they will be as fully honest as they possibly can be 24/7--but we can.

That little grandaughter of yours and your wifes is a tiny little child that for now, just depends on the adults in her life to keep her safe and growing. But the day will come when she will tell you about what she wants to do in life and who she loves, and her favorite teacher, and the cute boy that sits ahead of her in class. She will be excited about the field trips she will go on etc. etc.. That is because she is human. Your deer cannot do any of that. So you see, there are many differences.

What are your dreams Nathan? Who was your favorite teacher? Why did you get married? Deers can mate, but they can't select a partner, and woo her and propse to her. Humans can. The more you think of it, the more I think you will like it that you are human, and maybe a dear, but not a deer.

Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#23301 - 05/26/03 04:32 AM Re: Jump bitch jump could be a trigger
Nathan LaChine Offline
Webmaster
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 5379
Loc: Washington State
Well Bob I would have to say that my vaf teacher was my fourth grade teracher Mr. Worth. I love him great teacher I wish I could have been in his class forever. He is the start of my dream to be a teacher. Sadly he died the summer of my forth grade year. I missed him alot he should be that not all teachers are bad. That is my dream for the futur what is your's Bob? How about the rest of you what are your dreams?


lots of love, Nathan


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#23302 - 05/26/03 10:40 AM Re: Jump bitch jump could be a trigger
andrew-almost52 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 243
Loc: canada
Nathan,

The mob mentality/behaviour is really hard to figure out, and maybe even more difficult to resist. I think a part of it might be based in fear. The mob is made up of individuals who each have their own inner fears, possibly their own private hells that they are coping with. The callous bravado of yelling "jump bitch" might well be a group dynamic that allows the individuals to ignore their sensitivities and feel safer...for the moment. A person dangling on the edge of a bridge is a naked reminder of how tortured our souls can become. It is so much easier to hide behind the mob bravado. I could never have yelled "jump" Nathan. I remember all too well having felt just that desperate many years ago.

Peace, Andrew


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#23303 - 05/26/03 12:33 PM Re: Jump bitch jump could be a trigger
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
What Andrew says makes sense.

When I was 17 I came close to throwing myself off Lookout Mountain in Tennessee. Man I didn't even remember my SA then, tho I was a very troubled young man who was always in a lot of trouble.

There was no mob around so I can't say what difference that might or might not have made.

My dreams?

Among other things, young wolf bro Nathan, a world
in which no one wants to jump off bridges & no one
wants them to, becuz no one has suffered the
kinds of abuses & hangups that lead to that kind of despair, terror, anger, bitterness, etc in any person or mob of persons.

Yes I'm a dreamer...

...that's why I'm still alive!

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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