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#232531 - 06/22/08 07:28 AM Partners Seeking Closure of Survivor relationships
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
Yeah, it's me, hi there - for those of you who recall - and hello to those who don't know me from a rat's ass - or care -

I had an epiphany today that I felt was so significant I thought I'd come on here and post that others in similar situations might weigh in, as well as offer a subject for survivors to think about.

Like so many other women who've found themselves in a relationship w/a survivor, I found it difficult to end the relationship when it was clear it wasn't going in a positive direction.

And like a song that hits the top of the charts so the stations can't seem to find anything else to play, he and I kept doing the routine of on again, off again, back and forth, confusion at its best.

The past few days I've been trying to word it so I could tell him, let me go, let me be, I have gone on with my life, even tho he seems to think I haven't. Yes, I still have feelings, I always will but I am very realistic about what's possible and him and me right now is not an equation with a solution.

In fact, he's been so rude lately it was like, I no longer gave a flying f*ck if he got help or not, I did my best, I walked away several months ago (when I left this site) but I knew what I needed, deep down inside, was closure. I just needed to hear us both agree it wasn't going to work, that he needed to deal with his issues, or not, but as it was, it wasn't going to work. Up to this point all I ever got was everything was my fault when we were together but if I stayed away he missed me. Enough to drive anyone batty.

I've been pushing harder and harder and brought up the MS website again last week. Don't know if it did any good but from experience he rarely misses even a syllable of anything I say to him.

Then today, I glimpsed the pain, the agony, the defeat. He said he was sorry, he couldn't talk to me. Just like that. He was sorry; the pain in his voice was palpable. I haven't heard that, well, maybe ever from him.

Afterwards, I was just a bit miffed. It's like, but I NEED CLOSURE DAMN IT!!

Why can't I have just this little bit of consolation?? CLOSURE!! I just need that, ok?

Looks like I wasn't going to get it and all day I've pondered about it.

Then it hit me - of course - survivors couldn't stop the most horrific, terrifying events in their lives (except perhaps in extremely rare circumstances when they finally grew up but even then the past was still with them). They couldn't stop, put an end, to the worst nightmare anyone ever imagined - how could they be expected to put closure on a so-called "normal" relationship? ever?

No wonder so many women are so perplexed about our relationships and their status, our status, go or stay, work it out, leave it alone, whatever!!!

OH MY GOD!!

For all the posts I've ever seen on here, I've never seen one about this and I certainly hope people will respond because I think it's really important. I can see how the partner, in this case, me, would just wander around aimlessly for some time perplexed, indecisive and hesitant to let go when the guy cannot decide either. Given how close we usually have become before we learn about the csa makes it even more difficult.

ok, I'll stop here. I really do need closure and hopefully, this post is going to help me get me back on track. At the very least, it will give some folks something to think about.

Sorry guys, yes, if you weren't aware of it before, it's also maybe something else screwed up in your lives. Just look at it this way tho, knowing about it gives you amunition to deal with it, ok?

Indygal

_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#232538 - 06/22/08 09:49 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: indygal]
KENKEN Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/25/07
Posts: 762
Loc: NOTHERN COLORADO
Indygal,

There was a time a few months back that my GF, at that time did post here and did communicate w/you. I do understand what you are saying, loud and clear. It was evident to her many months ago that our relationship was never going to survive. We both thought that the Love we had or thought we had for each other would endure. That was not the case and she did move out and o n with her life 3 months ago. She wanted a normal relationship. To a survivor I certainly didn't know and still don't know what normal is. How could I? My life was and will never be normal. I am dealing with my CSA, I will always deal with my CSA. My GF couldn't deal with me and that is/was ok. It takes very special people to understand or care to understand and be strong and willing to deal/put up with us survivors. Sometimes I think back it would have been easier if she didn't care about my fears/emotions/feelings/ thoughts. I was good to her, but she wanted to know my every thought. And that I don't even know about myself.

So, as far as closure, I don't know how you should do it. I can only say for me, I am happy that both of us were strong enough to know and understand that it/relationships cannot endure only on love. There must be TRUST AND FORGIVEING> and in my relationship we had neither for each other.

Ken

_________________________
I AM A GOOD PERSON, I AM A GOOD MAN

From the Movie: Antwone Fisher

***WOR ALUMNI SEQUOIA MARCH 2008***

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#232541 - 06/22/08 10:14 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: indygal]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
Indygal,
Excellent post. I've wondered how things were going for you after you left the site months ago.
I agree with you on the closure aspect. I would find it difficult myself. I think, being in a relationship with a survivor, we become accustomed to the volatile ups and downs that seem to happen at a moment's notice, without warning. Everything could be going fine and something triggers him and then enters the anxiety,mood swings, nausea, etc. What was okay for 3 years might not be okay tomorrow. It always leaves me staring and him and asking, "What is this REALLY about?!". Nothing is ever what it looks like. Nothing is ever easy.
And the rudeness? Yes, I've been there too. There has been a time or two when I've been tempted to slap the silly out of him. There have been times when I've been told that everything wrong between us is my fault and other times I've been told that not everything is about me. Batty is an understatement at best.
I push the MS website, I push the therapist, I push medication. (Although, recently, he agreed to medication and is giving it a try.) Like your guy, things I don't think he's hearing me say come back to me at a later time. He doesn't miss anything either.
You've been crystal clear on what you need and want from this point on, but it's not what he wants to hear.
Always,
Liv


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#232738 - 06/23/08 08:47 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Liv2124]
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
thanks to both of you for your insightful replies.

I'm trying to write out to myself what I feel about all this and what I need him to understand. Then will see how much is left, if I've emptied the pot, so to speak.

a lot of this is about guilt on my part - I just can't help feeling guilty - that if I could have done just x, y, z, he would have understood, believed, and started the healing process.

I know this is unrealistic but I think a lot of people probably feel similarly. We always want to know - did we do enough? can I go now, have I really done my best or am I just too tired to do anything more?

I hope some other folks will respond to this. Honestly, I do. I hope I wasn't too cranky in the first post, but really this roller coaster makes me very tired.

Indy

_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#232769 - 06/23/08 01:27 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: indygal]
Trish4850 Offline
BoD Liaison Emeritus
MaleSurvivor<

Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 3280
Loc: New Jersey
Hi Indy,

At the first therapy session I was invited to with my b/f, the T asked me, "what if it doesn't get any better than this?" My long reaction to that question at that time, is another story, but one of the things I said was that I had no intention of leaving my b/f. I love him, he's a good man and I want him in my life for a long, long time. I also said that if he feels he can't do this (our relationship) then he would have to tell me so, 'cause I didn't plan on going anywhere.

The T then told me that expecting my b/f to tell me such a thing, truth or not, was asking a lot of him. I was a bit shocked and asked her why. For crying out loud we were both adults in our 40's so I don't think it's too much to ask for some honesty, especially if we're talking about the survival or not of our relationship. She looked me squarely in the eye and told me he wouldn't be capable of it. He would have no ability to be the one to walk away. He would push me until I finally had enough and walked away, but he would not be able to stand up and say this isn't good for me, so we're done.

I was really blown away by this and more than a little frightened. How would I be able to tell if he wanted out? He really doesn't push me away much, but occasionally it's there. So what do I do with that? How would I figure out the "normal" push-pull behaviors with the push that meant, "leave me alone forever?" It took a while, but I've calmed down since this happened 2 years ago and figured things out (I hope) but it was not easy.

The point of this post is that "closure" from your survivor friend may not be possible in the way you wish it to be for the simple reason that he's incapable of such action. If he pushes you away and you go, it's your fault. Yes, it was because of his behaviors, but the bottom line is that you couldn't handle him and besides, he knew that's the way it's supposed to be anyway, so what's new?

I'm sure the guys will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a survivor can be just as incapable of being the one to say goodbye in a relationship as he is to being the one to initiate it. Both require a self confidence that survivors don't have, until the work is done to repair it.

ROCK ON........Trish

_________________________
If you fall down 10 times, Stand up 11.

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#232788 - 06/23/08 03:34 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Trish4850]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
trish, I think you are dead on,my H has over the course of 19 years together has threatened to leave and has pushed me away many times. He has never actually left. He usually even forgets he ever said anything or says, "saying your leaving and actually doing it are two different things."
Now that I have reached my breaking point with him, and explained that I just can't continue like this, his response is, " ok that's up to you. Let me know what your plans are, if you decide to leave I will not stand in your way." for many years I have on and off felt that he has wanted out, but did not want to be the one to end it. He does not want to be the "bad guy", it hurts me that he is so willing to let me go when I have fought all these years to have him stay.
As for closure, I don't think it is completely possible. For me I don't think my H can see past his own pain, to even begin to see mine,and how all this has taken a toll on me over the years.
Indy I know exactly what you mean about the guilt. I am struggling with the decision to continue and am trying to decide what is best for me. My H is in denial, and I feel so guilty for even thinking about it. I feel so selfish. I just cannot help someone who doesn't think he needs help. He thinks I'm the one with problems. It is all so hard. Don't beat yourself up, at some point you must do what is best for you,you deserve it. You tried your best and that is all anyone can ask of someone.
Best wishes, NY DAISY


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#232915 - 06/24/08 12:16 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: NY Daisy]
Brokenhearted Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 644
Loc: TX
I've been away for a time too...I ck back once ina while, like tonight...

Indy, first, welcome back and I'm wondered about you...

Wow...trish, I've been blown away - "he would not be able to stand up and say this isn't good for me, so we're done."

Is this similar to how they feel when they act out? Or cheat when they're married, even though they are risking everything? They just do not have that ability to stand up and say no more, it's bad for me???

Wow, what a parallel...

_________________________
Brokenhearted

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Luke 17:2

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#233005 - 06/24/08 08:30 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Trish4850]
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
Originally Posted By: Trish4850
The T then told me that expecting my b/f to tell me such a thing, truth or not, was asking a lot of him. I was a bit shocked and asked her why. For crying out loud we were both adults in our 40's so I don't think it's too much to ask for some honesty, especially if we're talking about the survival or not of our relationship. She looked me squarely in the eye and told me he wouldn't be capable of it. He would have no ability to be the one to walk away. He would push me until I finally had enough and walked away, but he would not be able to stand up and say this isn't good for me, so we're done.


wow Trish - even tho I felt pretty confident in my assessment of the situation in his being incapable of ending things the way one might expect, it's mind-blowing to hear that a T spoke on just this subject confirming it.

thanks so much for sharing this with us. in a way it seemed so obvious after thinking about it but at the same time, not at all.

Originally Posted By: Trish4850
The point of this post is that "closure" from your survivor friend may not be possible in the way you wish it to be for the simple reason that he's incapable of such action. If he pushes you away and you go, it's your fault. Yes, it was because of his behaviors, but the bottom line is that you couldn't handle him and besides, he knew that's the way it's supposed to be anyway, so what's new?


I think part of it is his desperation and obsessive need for control - he can't have me walking away without him doing so first but the only time he does try and end things he's in a temper and always comes back later remorseful and regretting things. He can't sit down and discuss what works and what doesn't.

Unfortunately, our situation differed from yours and others in that he hasn't take steps towards recovery and is unwilling to do so. Trish, I hope you do realize how fortunate you are in this regard - I never would have given up if he had been willing to work towards recovery.

Originally Posted By: Trish4850
I'm sure the guys will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a survivor can be just as incapable of being the one to say goodbye in a relationship as he is to being the one to initiate it. Both require a self confidence that survivors don't have, until the work is done to repair it.


along with that is also a self-awareness of what one can do and cannot; these are life skills some of us take for granted, no doubt. Understanding our own limitations in one of the most valuable life lessons we can ever learn; with this comes the knowledge and understanding of whether or not a relationship has a future or is at least worth working on. I can easily see how I used my own experiences to determine this with him. From what I've learned about male survivors I can appreciate how difficult and even impossible, this might be for him.

Again, thanks Trish, for your post and insight. It's immensely beneficial.

all the best,
Indy

_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#233010 - 06/24/08 08:42 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Brokenhearted]
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
Originally Posted By: Brokenhearted
"he would not be able to stand up and say this isn't good for me, so we're done."

Is this similar to how they feel when they act out? Or cheat when they're married, even though they are risking everything? They just do not have that ability to stand up and say no more, it's bad for me???

Wow, what a parallel..


Hi BH,

I have to say, when this epiphany came to me - I knew absolutely I was not alone. I thought immediately of you and your situation and Becky as well - don't know if she's still reading here or not. A couple of others, I don't recall their names.

I honestly think this does have a lot of parallels - including a survivor's life in general, not just between men and women, but less than suitable jobs, friends that aren't good for them, all around bad habits. I can see how perhaps there is a paralysis even of not being able to stop doing things one might want to stop but simply can't.

My (now former) bf for instance works in a profession that is certainly respectable but has nothing to do w/his education and even less to do with his own personal interests. Even he ridicules his job sometimes and it's frustrating to see someone with so much talent not even appear to try to find a different path.

How could it not be related to the csa? again, the worst nightmare one could ever imagine and one cannot stop it - one must surely be convinced one can never stop anything, that one simply doesn't have the power, or deserve anything else?

I can also see a parallel with battered women who came from battered childhoods, like myself. I'm not sure why I was able to fight my way out of it, but I often attribute the few kind people I knew along the way who encouraged me and nurtured my soul. Perhaps w/survivors the stigma is partly to blame? those who tried to tell no one helped? or because it was family? I don't know those answers and can't speculate any more right now.

Thanks BH for taking the time to post, I hope this discussion helps your situation even a little bit.

all the best,
Indy

_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#233013 - 06/24/08 08:47 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: NY Daisy]
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
NY Daisy,

what you describe sounds so familiar, sigh....

it's so amazing, isn't it? the patterns, after a while, they become so predictable even as each day we don't know what to expect.

thanks for posting, I appreciate it.

all the best,
Indy

_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#233227 - 06/24/08 08:07 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: indygal]
Trish4850 Offline
BoD Liaison Emeritus
MaleSurvivor<

Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 3280
Loc: New Jersey
Quote:
Is this similar to how they feel when they act out? Or cheat when they're married, even though they are risking everything? They just do not have that ability to stand up and say no more, it's bad for me???


Well, I think it is similar, perhaps even intertwined, but one, the relationship issue, is the ability to exert an external force to do what's best for himself and the acting out, is fighting an inner demon. Does that make sense? I'm not sure it even makes sense to me, it's just what I though when I read your question.

I'm going to leave this post as is and think on it to see if I can make my brain come up with words that would explain better.

How are you BH? I have thought about you alot.

ROCK ON...........Trish

_________________________
If you fall down 10 times, Stand up 11.

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#233239 - 06/24/08 08:28 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: indygal]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
Indygal,
I don't think you ever have to ask yourself if you've "done enough". I have been there, looking for the one thing I might be missing. The truth is, I am who I am. I've done the best I could. Over the past few months, having talked to a few survivors from this site, I've come to realize that I've done the best I could.
When we come to care about someone, I think it's normal to find it hard to let go. But if you REALLY look at it, you'll find the differences that could exist are dependent on what THEY choose to do, not us. Yes, things might improve if HE would commit to therapy. (I have no control over that) Communication might improve things between us if he could talk. (I can't MAKE him talk.) I talk til I'm blue in the face and most of the time, it just serves to piss him off. Only recently, in one of these "talks" I saw a look come across his face that made me think it wasn't really ME he was annoyed with, it was himself.
Things have gotten more complicated here for me too. I can relate TOTALLY to your frustration.
Always,
Liv


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#233341 - 06/24/08 11:51 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Liv2124]
fhorns Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 695
IndyGal,
I posted this a minute ago in JuneFriday's "Who to blame?" post. I'm not sure if it will help, but I am a survivor. Here's my experience:

I'm scared to admit this, moreso to myself, but I can absolutely identify. I am a survivor of abuse by my mother and brother, and my wife still says I act like a child around her. She is even disgusted at the thought of being physically intimate with me because, God, why would she want to sleep with a someone who perceives her as "Mom". That was a well founded slam from her.

I have treated her with contempt for years. Literally, since our first year married. I had dove right into therapy, survivor awareness, and I expected her to be "Mom". I think, like a little child, "isn't she supposed to do that?"

It's sad for me now. My wife has worked on her boundaries for a few years now. She was fiercely codependent, and she was there to "save" me for those first years. Her being there for me tired her out tremendously, she broke, and she now insists, demands, retorts back that she is not my "Mom".

And the truth? I don't, and haven't, seen it. But it forced a threat of divorce on Friday. "Dammit, this isn't fair!" I've thought. But nothing has changed. All I can admit right now, for me, is that I have to change.

I can't be responsible for your husband, but one thing I did do last week was this: I joined the Healing Circle on Monday mornings here as MS. I needed a safe place to air, share, and hear others. I have been alone because that is what I've done to survive. I've leaned on memories of my mom because that is all I know. But damn, there will be serious consequences if I don't see, somehow, how I'm treating my wife.

Because right now, I don't. That's why I'm in this forum tonight. I can't see it. Reading this story shows me what I can't see myself. Thank you for your post. Thank you.

What's sick is that if you were here, I'd be soft and tender, hoping you would be Mom, because you didn't (and hopefuly wouldn't) yell, or possibly abuse me. This is how I think. It's like I'm crying, "Mom, please love me". I haven't got to the grieving part yet. It'll come sooner than I expect. Thank you for sharing.


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#233713 - 06/26/08 08:30 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: fhorns]
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
*update*

I mentioned that I was going to write everything down - well, I did and it turned into a letter to him. Surprisingly, it seemed to actually turn out well. I expressed a lot of how I felt our difficulties stemmed from his abuse and lack of unwillingness to deal with it. I said I needed closure and reiterated what I said earlier in this post about how I had the epiphany that perhaps survivors just couldn't end relationships in the expected manner.

Looking back, now it makes sense how when I first confronted him about his abuse, he broke up w/me in an email, refused to speak to me on the telephone and had me frantic for quite a while before he settled down enough for us to talk. That is, he was unable to respond coherently but rather just had one major-non-ending panic attack.

Actually, it took nearly a year. I wouldn't have thought in any situation something like that would ever happen, but then, I've never dealt with something like falling in love with a survivor before.

The letter went on a bit to emphasize how strongly I felt he needed help and that even if he just came to the ms website, that would at least help him realize he wasn't alone.

Something significant I haven't yet mentioned here I also added. I told him that ever since I found out about his csa, I had felt very sorry for him. The fact that he couldn't deal with it in my mind meant it was just too painful. This, in turn, made me feel more sorry for him. Moreover, this pity created an imbalance in the relationship that I strongly felt was unhealthy for me. That is, I could not be in a relationship with a man I felt so sorry for all the time.

I don't know how others feel about this - but I do know, I've had a lot of tragedy in my own life and I absolutely abhor any kind of pity at all. Sympathize if you will, be kind, but do not pity; it makes me a little nuts as if I somehow am a victim when all my life I've fought for my own rights to live. I think that's what any healing journey is about - survival, not staying a victim. I can feel for the little boy that was hurt of course, but I want to be proud of the man who fights for his life.

I could not be proud of him, to let himself continue to hurt that way. It is, in my mind, just as self-destructive as substance or chemical abuse. Taking the path to recovery is hard, no doubt, but it also signifies a sense of wanting to live and to try and find a way throught the pain. I could not tolerate someone who can't fight for their own life. I would have been willing to be beside him, of course, for that fight, but he pushed me away; punished me in fact, for trying to love him. That, too, I cannot abide by for love should be rewarded, not punished.

I mailed the letter and the next day called him and asked him to read it, he said he would.

Thanks for all who've shared on this topic. It's been a rough one, for sure, and I hope it's helpful to understand ourselves in our relationships a little better. Unfortunately, I can now understand how it may very well be impossible to remain friends with a survivor after having broken up. Again, it's just not the way you all deal with things. That's what's so hard for women like me. We have to break off all contact even though in our hearts, you are always present.

I only knew this man for a little over 4 years yet it's like it's been all my life and certainly, I will remember him all my life. This is all so very strange to have to end what was once so beautiful in such a sad manner.

I can't say any more right now.

Indy

_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#234459 - 06/29/08 02:27 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: indygal]
evanescentjoy Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/28/05
Posts: 46
Quote:
one must surely be convinced one can never stop anything, that one simply doesn't have the power, or deserve anything else?


This is learned helplessness...

Quote:
I can also see a parallel with battered women who came from battered childhoods, like myself. I'm not sure why I was able to fight my way out of it, but I often attribute the few kind people I knew along the way who encouraged me and nurtured my soul. Perhaps w/survivors the stigma is partly to blame? those who tried to tell no one helped? or because it was family? I don't know those answers and can't speculate any more right now.


The Golden Key is one or two nurturing and encouraging people in the midst of the abuse.

_________________________
"Become who you are." -Nietzsche

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#234528 - 06/29/08 09:28 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: indygal]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
Indygal,
Composing my own letter to my SO... (must be the lunar cycle, if nothing else) I'm tired. I never thought I would be, leaving issues home and carrying on at work and elsewhere, seemingly unaffected.
His behavior over being my escort to the recent party, (and believe me, giving myself license to act like he does, it's NOT about the party) this has opened mt eyes and allowed me to see alittle further down the line.
I've accomodated the anxieties, the nausea, the depression, the restroom issues when we're out, the touch thing, the sex thing, the gay thing etc. etc. etc. Last night was the dealbreaker.
I'm not putting all the blame on him. In part, I've allowed this. I was always understanding. I was always the one to try to find a way to work it out.
I've been thinking of relocating down south for years. I just received my South Carolina nursing license. I can go. I was so worried about how to approach this with him. I would have no problem if he wanted to come with me, but for business reasons, I knew he probably would not. Now, I'm to the point where I can't worry about it. I'm going to love him there as much as I do here, but the reality is, the distance won't necessarily be any greater. Today I came to the realization that nothing between us will change, even if I'm 600 miles away.
I'm not going to blame this on him. I know he loves me. But the way things are, it isn't going to work. It's sad, because together, we've been through alot. But he's always been the center of his own universe, and I've apparently been the distant second.
In contrast to your post, I have to say that I found what you said interesting and examined my feelings towards him CLOSER as a result. I really have never felt sorry for him. I've felt angry that this happened to him, but I never pitied him at all. I always felt that he would rise above this, work through this, whatever... That's why I stayed with him. Because of who I believed he was. My focus was always to put him in touch with people who could help him out of this.
It's not like I never gave him a break. Let's not even take into consideration the 14 years I DIDN'T know, it's not like it's been wine, roses and song. But it's been 16 years since his disclosure and he's not moved much. What am I waiting for?
Just wanted to let you know, that through your pain, you've inspired me to take steps I should've inspired myself to do LONG ago.
Always,
Liv


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#234612 - 06/30/08 08:51 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Liv2124]
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
Liv,

I'll write more later - but for now - the ultimate irony is a couple of weeks ago we were having a discussion which turned into an argument and just before the inevitable hang up came from his end - he said to me - I think too much about myself.

It made me chuckle for days - really - he was angry when he said it but all I could think about was how people caution me about becoming too involved with his issues and how the number one piece of advice on here people keep saying is to take care of one's self first and foremost.

I wouldn't even have been talking to him if I was so involved with myself - that is - I do have better things to do than listen to him complain about me - but something somewhere must have gotten thru to him that I wasn't going to let him bring me down.

We mustn't, no matter what. It's hard, I know, lord knows I know. Hang in there Liv, be strong.

Sometimes by letting ourselves go and live a life we show them it can be done. I don't know how that works exactly, but I do believe it.

all the best,
Indy

_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#234778 - 06/30/08 09:23 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: indygal]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
Indygal,
Here's one to make you laugh...
Once, during a "discussion that turned into an argument", before he hung up, he said, and I quote, "I don't think there's anyone who can meet your emotional needs."
I laughed for 6 months over that...
Liv


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#234878 - 07/01/08 08:23 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: evanescentjoy]
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
Originally Posted By: evanescentjoy
Quote:
one must surely be convinced one can never stop anything, that one simply doesn't have the power, or deserve anything else?


This is learned helplessness...


this absolutely stunned me because it fits him to a "T." when I see him in his paralysis state it's so strong it's almost like time itself has stopped and he can't move - can't break its hold. One can almost picture the barriers placed on him even tho they are invisible.

yes, learned helplessness. many women - MANY - have this - taught to stand still, step aside, don't react; let the man handle it - and of course, children are taught it, to let the adult take care of it.

I can see how a child who's been abused would have learned this, and can only imagine how difficult it must be to unlearn it.

those of you survivors who fight this must have the strength of St. Michael himself on your side (no offense to those of you nonbelievers I meant it in a good way).

Indy

_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#234879 - 07/01/08 08:26 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Liv2124]
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
Originally Posted By: Liv2124
Indygal,
Here's one to make you laugh...
Once, during a "discussion that turned into an argument", before he hung up, he said, and I quote, "I don't think there's anyone who can meet your emotional needs."
I laughed for 6 months over that...
Liv


but we can conjure up all of 6 different personalities to meet theirs, right? or 10 or 12 or whatever - sigh...

yeah, I totally get it.

_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#235066 - 07/01/08 08:40 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: indygal]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
If his life DEPENDED ON IT, I guarantee you, he couldn't tell you what my emotional needs actually are. I've spent the better part of my life, meeting my own.
Liv


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#235214 - 07/02/08 05:47 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Liv2124]
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
Liv,

I'm sorry to hear this; I think what saddens me is how little effort I think was being made on his part to get to know me, who I am, what I'm about.

That is, it was obvious he did recall my likes and dislikes, things of that nature, but it was more he studied me, listened to what I said or read what I wrote, rather than ask me about myself. It's his way of a lot of things, indirect vs. direct. maybe that's a survivor trait?

I'm a pretty direct person myself and it somehow just didn't jive with my view of the world; I understand some situations where observation and assumption are necessary but I also believe in getting down to the nitty gritty and direct questioning - if you want to know about someone or something, you ask them.

That seemed impossible for him. Just as impossible was for him to actually have an honest to goodness adult conversation about our relationship without it erupting into an argument. I tried so many times, please, let us be civil to one another, we're adults, he couldn't do it. I don't honestly know if he tried, and how he felt about it, but I do know it just seemed impossible for us to discuss personal matters together.

Those of you who are thinking about ending a relationship, please don't discount what you have together if you do, indeed, have something positive. We did, but it was lost after I learned about his csa. He couldn't deal with it, with me knowing, it threatened his entire being and state of mind which is in a rigid state of denial and self-preservation that perhaps might never change.

I said it before, I meant it - if he'd been working on recovery, things would have been different. Also we don't live together, are not married, or anything. We already have separate lives.

As old as he is he still couldn't plan a future for himself, for anyone. He couldn't see past the day, or sometimes a few days.

Me, I'm very goal oriented, constantly evaluating myself and personal goals, projects, etc. To not be able to project an outcome from our relationship, even a tentative one, just kept causing me more stress than I want or need. Some people can do that, I can't.

I do however, believe if we had been able to work things out I still would have worked hard to have kept a semblance of a separate life going on for myself while he worked on his issues. I think that's tantamount to surviving in a relationship with a survivor and if, by chance I meet another one, I think I'll be better prepared to deal with the uncertainties, tho who knows??

thanks as always to those of you who have commented, I'm feeling much better since I made this post. it's hard, it will always be hard, but I do feel like I'm going the right way these days.

Indy

_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#235366 - 07/02/08 10:18 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: indygal]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
Indy,
I hear what you're saying. I do believe it's a trait, the observation.
My SO knew ALOT about what I liked, and didn't like. When he was living here, he was tuned in to my menstral cycle of all things, and would come home from work with chocolate covered strawberries and champagne. (Cramps and cravings)
He just couldn't deal with the emotional stuff.
I'm a very direct person. There were ALOT of arguments, not over what I said, but over the fact that I actually said it OUT LOUD. (Then, of course, came the arguments over the CONTENT of what I said.)
I laughed out loud when you mentioned the "questioning..." There came a point when I would ask him, "Are you going to tell me what's bothering you? Or do I have to drag it out of you with alot of extremely intense, very uncomfortable questions, you're gonna hate?"
I believe that if he were working on recovery, I wouldn't even be here.
Always,
Liv


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#235533 - 07/03/08 05:20 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Liv2124]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
Dear all, I agree with everything you all have said. My H knows all my likes, and dislikes when it comes to food or colors ect.. He also goes as far to say that he knows me better than I know myself. I cannot say the same. Everytime I think I know what his favorite food is, or color, it changes, he'll swear he never told me that,and then will tell me that after all these years I still don't know him at all. I always feel like he does it purposely, to keep me confused. It is then something else he can use against me ( I get the,"if you loved me, you would know what I like" thing)
I am at a point in my relationship with my H that a decision needs to be made. I can no longer go on the way it is. We are in therapy together,before our first appointment he warned me that this was not going to be about his abuse, he is fine and all the problems stem from me being an overall bad spouse, I am not really good at anything, he feels he is in this marriage alone. I have asked him if you have such disdain for me, why are you here? He says he loves me. I asked him how can you love somone when yousay you hate everything they are? He has no answer.
My H cannot or will not acknowledge my feelings about anything. He said I am emotionally and mentally abusing him when I try even bring up the SA, or my feelings about how he has treated me. It is so hard. Like you ladies I like to put everything out there, I like to work it out, so we can move on. I am so tired of sweeping everything under the rug. My H says none of this is any of my business. At therapy yesterday the T asked my H why he even bothered to tell me about it in the first place, and my H's response was because he wanted to tell his sisters, so they could protect their kids. That hurt. Maybe I am wrong, but I have always felt that if he could have told his family without telling me he would, and yesterday he confirmed it.
I now wonder if my feelings don't matter on this subject because he never saw how it effected me at all. NY DAISY


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#235618 - 07/03/08 09:55 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: NY Daisy]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
NY DAISY,
My thoughts go out to you... I wish I could say more, but a line in your post muted me to a degree.

Nothing can EVER be about the abuse.

Always,
Liv


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#235665 - 07/04/08 01:04 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Liv2124]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
Dear all,
I just reread my post, and it kind of sounded like I didn't think it was important for him to tell his sisters. I wanted all the kids in the family protected.(his older brother was the perp) it was hurtful to me because for a year and a half before he told me, he treated me with so much hatred. Nothing I did was right. i was damned if I did and damned if I didn't.
Tonight when he came home I tried to talk to him about my feelings. I tried to explain to him that I was hurt that I never entered the equation, not me , our kids, or my feelings. I also asked if he had ever regretted telling. His answer was of course yes. I asked him why? He said because he lost everything important to him. WHAT? He said it took away his sisters and his parents and left him with nothing. What about me? What about our Kids?(Everyone in his family turned their backs on him) He doesn't see that this is the problem I have. I asked him did he ever thinks about what he would have lost, had he never told? He seemed geniunely bewildered. "What would I have lost?" ME, YOUR 4KIDS. I was pregnant while he was wrestling with his demons the first time, and mistreating me. Since I did not know Why, I was preparing to leave after the baby was born. I even said so again yesterday in therapy, that I would have left. He said "what are you talking about?",apparently from what he told me tonight, he didn't have to think about me, I was a given. I would just be there.
I'm not even sure how to take that. I am so confused. I said to him that it was so hard, you had really put me through the ringer, and I honestly could not handle it anymore. He has no recollection of any of it. He then always says," poor, poor you. I mistreated YOU. I emotionally abuse YOU. Your problem is that if you can't make it about you, your miserable." He says he is sick of me never letting him live it down.
All I want is for him to acknowledge that I too have feelings. I did not bring this subject back up a few months ago, he did. I am just done being mistreated. I want to feel like I am important to him, that I matter. I don't feel like I do. He just will not discuss my emotions at all. I don't want to offend anyone here, and I am sorry if I do, I feel that my husband treats me like his brother(perp) treated him, like a worthless, insignificant,feelingless entity, right down to the fact that my H is pissed at me because I am not into having sex, he feels I should just do it anyway, even though I told him in therapy that I am not feeling EMOTIONALLY connected.
I will stop now. I am tired and crying. Thank you all for being here, it does help to know people can relate, and I REALLY needed to get some of that off my chest.
Warmly, NYDAISY

p.s. I really wish this site had spell check.LOL


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#235684 - 07/04/08 05:31 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: NY Daisy]
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
Daisy -

I think reading posts like yours and then having to acknowledge you are married and have been together for some years -

then I had to acknowledge how similar it sounded to my relationship - and yes, this had some bearing on my decision

it's like, if you ladies have been trying all this time, and this is how it is, and it's already like that for me and him, well, what's wrong with this picture?

maybe this has been said before, I don't know, but it's like survivors get "stuck" in their mind - part of them still are in the same mental place they were in when the abuse occured - they grow bigger, older, but part of their psyche never seems to evolve the way non-sexually-abused people do.

those of us who want to talk about our feelings, sort out the differences, we do that to organize our thoughts, our partners thoughts, the things we do and try and find a semblance of unity and balance in our interactions to one another.

Survivors appear not to always know balance, or equilibrium only discourse, disconnected thoughts and feelings, a disenfranchisement, if you will, from humanity even.

they don't know how to fine balance and don't understand that's what we are trying to do and only seek for both of us to feel better about our relationship.

I'm so sorry he's not acknowledging your feelings; this is tantamount to going forward in a relationship of any kind. We have to understand and accept each other's emotions to some degree, no matter how small. To dismiss them as trivial, or unimportant or imagined is tantamount to dismissing us as the whole human beings we are.

but again, this is learned behavior.

I told a friend about all this and she commented I must feel "empowered" over having brought things to a finality.

No, I don't. I feel sad, depressed and angry it had to be this way.

I also feel cheated - the abuser(s) won. They did this. It's not fair.

Indy




_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#235732 - 07/04/08 11:18 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: NY Daisy]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
NY Daisy,
I read your post and can totally relate to the dynamic, since over the years, I've become "a given" myself.
You see him and know him as he really is, and you love him anyway. For some reason, they see this as license not to try anymore. They don't have to. You're gonna be there.
I've watched him, over and over, try to please other people. He's a different person with other people. I've always wondered what he gets out of it. What good is it if someone likes you, when you're putting forth a fascade to make it happen?
We've had multiple arguments that have ended with his telling me, "Not everything is about YOU!" (Many of which are posted on this site \:\) ) I will agree that the abuse is "his thing" but being close with him means that alot of the effects spill into my life as well. This is what he doesn't seem to get. Feelings are relatively foreign to him, be they mine or his own. He's good with gifts, but after all this time, I don't need anymore souveniors.
Not having spoken to him since the "party blow-off", the last time in a limited series of times when I've asked that he do something for me just because... I've started composing a letter to him in an attempt to, yet again, thrust my emotions in his face.
This is aggravating to say the least, because I was determined not to lose him to this, and it does seem now, like the abuser(s) are winning. And the winner takes it all.
Always,
Liv


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#235811 - 07/04/08 04:00 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Liv2124]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
Dear Indy & Liv, it is amazing that all of our stories are so similar. It is so obvious that this issue effects the men and everyone around them. The problem that I see is that we see it, they can't or won't. You can't help someone who won't help themselves. Our hands are tired. We must now do what is best for us. I go to bed every night and pray that I will wake up and my H will tell me that he gets it. That he acknowledges me as a person. I can't help but think of how many times he went to bed as a child wishing that someone,anyone would see him. That breaks my heart.
My H is just like your BF. He too will go out of his way for other people. He is so helpful, and everyone loves him. They always tell me how lucky I am to have someone like him. It is all a scam. He too puts on a really big show for others. Since I didn't know about the abuse until 5 years after our marriage, I have at times wondered, if his "wooing" of me wasn't real, how much of that was sincere. I'll never know. He says I am a horrible excuse for a human being, then says I LOVE YOU.
I've written my H many e-mails over the years, I know he read them, HE HAS NEVER RESPONDED to any of them. THe last one I wrote a couple of weeks ago, I explained that I was not going to take his disrespect of me. I told him I knew what he was doing and it wasn't going to work. YADA, YADA, YADA, any way he read it, I asked him when we would discuss it or if he would write me back. His answer, I will when I have a chance. I am busy. 3months later I am still waiting. After our first therapy session, he wrote me an e-mail asking mee if we could just forget everything and start again. I read it, and didn't respond. He was beside himself. Did you get my e-mail? did you read it? Well? Well? are you sure you got it? I calmly told him I would respond when I had time and I wasn't so busy. He did not talk to me for days.
Now I write e-mails to myself I get it all of my chest,I have it journaled so when he tells me I don't know what I am talking about, I can go back and know I am not losing my mind, and it keeps an argument from happening. Do any of you journal your thoughts?
It is sad to know the abusers are winning. I have come to realize there is nothing more I can do. I am not even sure losing me would make a difference. In his mind I am the enemy, I have harmed him, and most importantly I would have had to mattered in the first place, and I don't think that I did.
I will be thinking of you all, have a good 4th, NYDAISY



Edited by NY Daisy (07/04/08 04:02 PM)

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#235827 - 07/04/08 06:35 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: NY Daisy]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey

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#236284 - 07/06/08 10:56 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Liv2124]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
I wonder, if I may?

Is it comforting to write, "Survivors" rather than some survivors as you qualify what is happening in your relationships with survivors?

Just curious?


CD



Edited by CDavid (07/06/08 10:56 AM)

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#236306 - 07/06/08 01:20 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: CDavid]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
CD,
Not sure what you're asking?
Liv



Edited by Liv2124 (07/06/08 01:20 PM)

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#236317 - 07/06/08 02:00 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Liv2124]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
The word, "survivors" as it is used...suggests all survivors...rather than, perhaps, "some survivors" might exhibit the behaviors mentioned.

It would seem less like scapegoating and more like a revelation if it were not for the fact that while "some survivors" may have difficulty with ending relationships, I am not quite clear on why or how that affects the ability of the survivor's partner to find closure. Would it be accurate then to say, "Partners of survivors have difficulty finding closure in ending relationships with survivors?" That would be ridiculous, wouldn't it? Although, it might be accurate to say or suggest that some pertners of survivors have difficulty ending relationships with survivors.

It does sound silly, doesn't...to suggest men do this, or, women do that in a general sort of way. It is demeaning, suggests an all or nothing sort of thinking.

Oh, wait! I've just had a revelation, too!


:-)


CD


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#236329 - 07/06/08 02:40 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: CDavid]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
CD,
Okay, this is really, I suppose, about being politically correct, when discussing "survivors" vs. "some survivors", or "partners of survivors" vs. "some partners of survivors."
I don't think anybody sets out to make generalizations with the intent to offend anyone else. We post our feelings here, (both partners and survivors) that best reflect the relationships we find ourselves in. From the aspect of posting, if someone, partner or survivor can relate to the thread, they post back. If it doesn't apply, they don't.
My SO is experiencing countless effects from the csa that shadow my life, being close to him. I would, however, find closure difficult, because I love him and my reasons for loving him have nothing to do with the csa. ( After almost 30 years, his disclosure having come 16 years ago.) Also, he's spent the better part of our relationship convinced that eventually I will leave him, just like everyone else has. Because, refusing to commit to therapy, he feels at fault for everything that's happened to him. He still doesn't see that this was never about him, that there was nothing about him, and nothing he did, that made this happen.
Sometimes, "some" partners get frustrated... I know I do. I can't touch him, because of what someone else did, he doesn't trust me because of what someone else did. Makes it hard not to be angry at the "someone else." This doesn't mean I'm angry with him.
Always,
Liv


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#236351 - 07/06/08 03:56 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Liv2124]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
I apologize if I have come across harshly, and I have the utmost respect for most partners of survivors. But language in recovery is not just about being politically correct...

To say something as simple as, "This happened to me." Suggests that it is in the natural order of things that these things "happened" and that we are survivors because of them. When, in fact, and while the distinction seems subtle, it is an important one, these things did not happen...they were done to us. A sometimes subtle distinction that removes the guilt from a survivor and places it squarely on those who perpertrated the offense(s).

When I discussed this post with my wife...I got as far as saying "Survivors are..." she stopped me, said, "You mean some survivors..." Yes. Some survivors.

Language...is important...it is how we communicate our needs, wants and desires...it is hugely important in recovery to challenge our old beliefs. But imagine...how something as incredibly simple as changing the wording from, "What happened to you..." To, "What was done to you..." over time, how that can change a perception or belief. Because that is one of the most challenging obstacles we overcome, I think. To place the responsibility where it lies. It was not our fault.


Thank you


CD


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#236360 - 07/06/08 05:04 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: CDavid]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
CD,
Okay, I can see your perspective, but I would love to meet the person who sees csa having happened as being within "the natural order of things", no matter how it's stated.
I'll agree with you, language is important, and it's a wonderful thing that you and your wife have moved into a higher level of communication. For us, he still sees this as something he did.
This did happen to him, it was done to him, I think the overall truth, is that he didn't cause it, it wasn't anything about him that made it happen and he couldn't have prevented it. I think, when it comes to feelings, any wordage is appropriate if it gets the point across, and hopefully, it won't offend anyone in the process.
Thanks,
Liv


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#236485 - 07/07/08 05:48 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: CDavid]
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
Originally Posted By: CDavid
The word, "survivors" as it is used...suggests all survivors...rather than, perhaps, "some survivors" might exhibit the behaviors mentioned.



CDavid,

the reason this topic is posted at all - as well as the fact it's been responded to at length - is due to the vast similiarities us partners experience in dealing with survivor relationships.

to try and play with the semantics is just another - pardon me - survivor attempt at deflecting the subject at hand - which is, in fact, the problem of relationships (with survivors) and when they don't progress, or stagnate, or deteriorate inexplicably; partners are frequently at a loss as to understand if it's over, if it's not, or what the heck IS going on.

that in a nutshell, is it. too often it appears if we, the partners, are to move forward with our lives, we have to be the ones not just to end the relationship but to set forth the finality of it in terms the survivor can understand, if at all possible.

moreover, as far as "some" vs the generalization of "all" - there was never a specific mention of this being the case - that is, "all" - however, and this is important, any survivor should understand that's what's true for him(her) at one point in their healing journey may not be true at another point. Of course not all survivors travel the same path any more than all have been abused in the same way. No one would expect that or imply it, least of all me.

if none of this appears to apply to you then don't worry about, IMO. let it go, let it be.

Peace,
Indy



_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#236488 - 07/07/08 06:51 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: indygal]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
"if none of this appears to apply to you then don't worry about, IMO. let it go, let it be."

Yes, Mammm...

As you so eloquently put it, " Sorry guys, yes, if you weren't aware of it before, it's also maybe something else screwed up in your lives. Just look at it this way tho, knowing about it gives you amunition to deal with it, ok?"

Thank you so very much for the insight.


CD


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#236642 - 07/07/08 09:14 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: CDavid]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
Sorry CDavid, you've "triggered" me,
Having been responded to with "Yes, mamm" and being called "The guru" (in less than affectionate terms)
I think that 2 people who have connected in some way (EVEN, be them, partner and survivor, or survivor and partner,) They will either relate in a way that will work for them, or self destruct.
This is the "natural order of things"
Liv


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#236736 - 07/08/08 08:02 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Liv2124]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
Liv,


I know it may seem like semantics, as has been pointed out, but the language we choose to use as we move through this process...is important.

If you care to...would you consider why you chose to write, "Sorry CDavid, you've "triggered" me..." You have explained that the words, "Yes, mamm" and "The guru" are triggering for you. I think we can safely assume that to be triggered is an unpleasant experience.

This is an excellent case in point, actually...as we wander through this...try to sort out how we get caught up in the language and responsibility issues in relationships.

It would certainly be fair to say, that there are a lot of survivors who may feel as though they are responsible for what was done to them. Few perpetrators take responsibility for their actions...even go so far as to suggest any number of things that suggest that the survivor is actually responsible for what was done to them.

Since I have no prior knowledge that these words are triggering for you...the fact that you have been triggered by them is not my responsibility. You may say, "I have been triggered by this exchange." But, to say that, "...you've triggered me..." is shifting the responsibility onto someone else.

Survivors, in general, have a lot of experience with that. It does not exactly open up an atmosphere of safety or willingness to talk.

As you say, it ain't easy. I have the utmost respect for your determination and certainly, stamina. But, if we keep on doing what we have always been doing, we are going to get the same results over and over...aren't we?


CD


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#236855 - 07/08/08 09:14 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: CDavid]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
CDavid,
With all due respect...NO.
I think we need to call a truce, or agree to disagree. While I will offer my advice and opinion, I'll never speak for other partners. And if you feel that you can speak for all survivors, please continue to do so.
My feelings are my feelings. That's the extent of it. You neither know me, nor my SO and you cannot qualify my feelings nor his. If you can relate to the way I portray them, feel free to comment, if not, please don't.
Is that clear enough?
I would never disqualify, your experience as a survivor, but you know nothing about me, or my relationship with him. Fair enough?
I would never go so far as to put you in the same category as my SO, because unspoken differences exist. How can you, so apparently educated, view me so generically?
This is becoming semantics, which is a distraction, to say the least.
And FYI, I can COMPLETELY acknowledge that you are not responsible for the abuse you've endured, but that in no way excuses you from triggering or offending others, by what you say. Part of self awareness, is taking responsibilty for one's own actions. Actions that can be controlled with an understanding of our sense of "self".
Liv


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#236872 - 07/08/08 10:25 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Liv2124]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Folks,

I think it's time to step back a little from edge of the abyss of accusation/counter accusation, and agree to disagree. The old adage "If you're convinced against your will, you're of the same opinion still" may well apply in this case.

Besides all which, this line of discussion is hijacking the thread from the original topic. If someone wishes to start another topic concerning this in the open forum where a greater latitude of discussion is allowed (as long as it does not descend into personal attack), please feel free.

Thanks,

John
For the Mod Team



Edited by walkingsouth (07/08/08 10:27 PM)
_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#236883 - 07/08/08 11:06 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: WalkingSouth]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
Walkingsouth,
For what it's worth, I can agree to "disagree"...
I cannot compromise on wordage, as my SO is frequently 7 years old, and I don't feel that here, I should have to justify that to anyone. (Could be wrong, but, if I AM...sorry)
If you, as a moderator, ever feel that I am out of line, please PM me. I get ALOT of support here, from partners and survivors alike, and I would never want to compromise that.
For me, this is REAL life, REAL time, and MY life. I was given this "gift", 14 years into a 30 year relationship. I rarely "apologize" for anything connected to this. I love him, for who he is, and "deal" with the rest. (With the help, of ALOT of great people here)
Liv



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#236885 - 07/08/08 11:14 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: CDavid]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Indygal why don't you initiate closure?

Sorry Liv!



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/09/08 12:07 AM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#236889 - 07/08/08 11:24 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: hogan_dawg]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
You are so going to get in trouble for that one, hogan_dawg.


LOL


CD


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#236891 - 07/08/08 11:27 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: CDavid]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
CDavid,
ENOUGH already...
If you had a CLUE, you wouldn't have posted that to hogan dawg...
I resolve...not to post with you again...K?


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#236902 - 07/09/08 12:07 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Liv2124]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Sorry I meant Indygal - not Liv.

Funny but quite unintentional. I'll close now. \:D



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/09/08 12:08 AM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#236904 - 07/09/08 12:22 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: hogan_dawg]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
Liv,

I am sorry that you have interpreted this as confrontational. Truly.

Since coments were solicited from survivors, I felt justified in initiating the discussion and still feel it is relevant to the original topic of the thread.

Since that seems impossible at this point, I would like to add that the "epiphany" and the manner in which it was posted is ludicrous. But, that would be my opinion and certainly not one shared by everyone.

CD


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#236921 - 07/09/08 05:15 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: CDavid]
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
if I might interject here -

CD - I think what Liv is trying to say (and Liv please let me know if I'm correct or not) is the CONTEXT of what you are saying is how it's triggering her - this is opposed to the actual WORDS you are speaking of which trigger you - and that's a significant difference.

it's like when people apologize but do it insincerely, or with sarcasm, you know? sortof makes it worse instead of better?

I know sometimes I get a little riled if someone says "Yes Mam'm" to me and I think they are being facetious or something other than respecful - it's not the WORDS "Yes Mam'm" that are triggering - it's the CONTEXT.

now, with you, as you made apparent, it's very clearly using specific language that's a problem and with that I'm going to stop because no, I don't have a lot of time for this.

*also* am not sure what you meant about the

Quote:
"epiphany" and the manner in which it was posted is ludicrous.


so please elaborate - I'd like to know more. if, that is, you are referring to the one I spoke of in the original post?


hogan dawg - you've totally lost me - what did you mean maybe I should initiate closure? I did. That's what this thread is about. Am I just being dense or what because I don't get it.

Liv, I don't know what to say except I totally understand you even if CD doesn't, if that helps?

ok, that's all. hope we can get back on track.

Indy

_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#236922 - 07/09/08 05:21 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: indygal]
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
ok, that's not all, sorry, almost forgot, and this is sorta important.

Liv and CD - you both sound like me and my ex going back and forth - I couldn't believe it - we don't understand each other - and he deflects and I zero in and he goes off another direction and sometimes I followed and other times I tried to come back to the topic at hand. but always, always, he couldn't stay there. control issues maybe? I donno - perhaps that was it.

I think that's a fundamental reason as to why we couldn't make it work, is all I'm saying. doesn't matter how much love is there. He said it once before, we couldn't communicate. I didn't truly appreciate what he meant at the time even tho there were many times we ended discussions and I'd be like wtf is he talking about? or he'd be angry with me and for the life of me I couldn't understand why.

He did try, as did I.

am sad again now, got to go.

Indy



_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#237201 - 07/10/08 08:36 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: CDavid]
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
Originally Posted By: CDavid

Since that seems impossible at this point, I would like to add that the "epiphany" and the manner in which it was posted is ludicrous. But, that would be my opinion and certainly not one shared by everyone.

CD



I'm still waiting for your explanation of what you think is so ludicrous. Almost sounds like a personal attack considering you aren't backing it up with any further explanation and/or reasons.

I tried to answer your questions and address your concerns in a thoughtful and intelligent manner. Now I'm asking you for further elaboration on what you said, so how about it?

Indy

_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#237255 - 07/10/08 02:39 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: indygal]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
Indygirl,

I just reread your original post. I do not feel that your "epiphany" is in anyway ludicrous. I got what you meant completely. you know in your mind that the best thing for you is to leave, yet your heart is telling you something else. I know I hold on because I am forever hopeful that the man I love will be back.You will never get closure because if you leave, you'll always wonder, and have what if's, and he himself is not sure about anything,so he can't give you the decisive answer, you, and all of us look for.
As for CD, at first I thought that maybe he was trying to be humorous. When typing it is hard to hear the "tone" in the words. Being a sarcastic person myself, I thought that could be it. However to tell you that your feelings are ludicrous,that was wrong.
CD, we do not know what it is like to walk in your shoes as a survivor, I couldn't even begin to imagine the pain and thoughts you men have, YOU HAVE NO IDEA what it is like to walk in our shoes, how hard it is to love and support our survivor. We try our best,we would not be here otherwise. I think that maybe this thread has struck a cord somehow for you, and that maybe you have unresolved issues with someone, and you never received the closure you needed. Think about it, and how about we all try not to pass judgement on each other, and just stick to trying to listen,and help one another, because that's what we all need here.
Warmly, NYDAISY


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#237353 - 07/10/08 10:34 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: indygal]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
Indy,
I apologize for the back and forth... In truth, I did find alot of his posts "antagonistic" in tone. I'm not going to change my manner of speaking or "word choices" for anyone.
And, you were right, it was the CONTEXT and not the words themselves.
For what it's worth, my SO has the same habit of "wandering" from the topic. It was worse earlier on, but depending on how emotional the topic, it still happens. Even after all this time, there are still MANY "WTF"????? moments that go on. It always seemed to happen, the closer we got. (And I'm not talking about physical proximity) He usually gets argumentative after he's opened up alittle more. It's happened so frequently, that I've learned to expect it.
Always,
Liv


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#237546 - 07/11/08 07:03 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Liv2124]
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
Liv and Daisy, thanks to both of you for your words.

clearly, this thread has hit a nerve of truth. I gave it a lot of thought before posting it and recalled not just reading the partners' stories of struggle with on-again, off-again relationships with male survivors, but also from the survivors' stories themselves. invariably it was "she's gone now, she divorced me, she's leaving" as opposed to " I can't deal with this any more, so I'm initiating a break-up, divorce, I'm leaving."

there doesn't seem to be that ability for male survivors to assert their place in a relationship the way nonsurvivors do - to own up to their actions, take credit where credit is due and just as important, to accept blame where blame is due. To understand a relationship is as much about people's interactions as it is their individual contribution. perhaps it's the loss of self-esteem, the sense they don't matter, even tho, of course they do and often mean so very much to those of us who love them so.

but yes, it's difficult to love anyone who doesn't love themselves and see themselves as perhaps unworthy of our love or worse - there must be something terribly wrong with us for loving them so much. this is, IMO, where so many relationships hit the point of no return. it takes a certain amount of self-worth, self-love and conscious self-preservation (as opposed to instinct) to actively work to keep a relationship healthy, strong and growing.

if a survivor - male or female - is not actively, consciously engaged in a positive mental growth state of their own, for their own sake, how can they possibly give a relationship what it needs to survive? one partner simply cannot do it on their own - it's impossible and will not only tear apart the relationship but do so to the detriment of the partner who is struggling too hard to manage both their own mental state of well-being as well as the relationship and perhaps, even the survivor partner also by reinforcing a sense of "everything is all right don't worry" all the time.

survivors, if any of this in this thread rings bells for you - please, for goodness sakes - get yourselves into recovery for the sake of yourself, your partner and your relationships - and if you have children, it's even more important.

thanks again to all who have commented.

all the best,
Indy

_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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