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#236284 - 07/06/08 10:56 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Liv2124]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
I wonder, if I may?

Is it comforting to write, "Survivors" rather than some survivors as you qualify what is happening in your relationships with survivors?

Just curious?


CD



Edited by CDavid (07/06/08 10:56 AM)

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#236306 - 07/06/08 01:20 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: CDavid]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
CD,
Not sure what you're asking?
Liv



Edited by Liv2124 (07/06/08 01:20 PM)

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#236317 - 07/06/08 02:00 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Liv2124]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
The word, "survivors" as it is used...suggests all survivors...rather than, perhaps, "some survivors" might exhibit the behaviors mentioned.

It would seem less like scapegoating and more like a revelation if it were not for the fact that while "some survivors" may have difficulty with ending relationships, I am not quite clear on why or how that affects the ability of the survivor's partner to find closure. Would it be accurate then to say, "Partners of survivors have difficulty finding closure in ending relationships with survivors?" That would be ridiculous, wouldn't it? Although, it might be accurate to say or suggest that some pertners of survivors have difficulty ending relationships with survivors.

It does sound silly, doesn't...to suggest men do this, or, women do that in a general sort of way. It is demeaning, suggests an all or nothing sort of thinking.

Oh, wait! I've just had a revelation, too!


:-)


CD


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#236329 - 07/06/08 02:40 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: CDavid]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
CD,
Okay, this is really, I suppose, about being politically correct, when discussing "survivors" vs. "some survivors", or "partners of survivors" vs. "some partners of survivors."
I don't think anybody sets out to make generalizations with the intent to offend anyone else. We post our feelings here, (both partners and survivors) that best reflect the relationships we find ourselves in. From the aspect of posting, if someone, partner or survivor can relate to the thread, they post back. If it doesn't apply, they don't.
My SO is experiencing countless effects from the csa that shadow my life, being close to him. I would, however, find closure difficult, because I love him and my reasons for loving him have nothing to do with the csa. ( After almost 30 years, his disclosure having come 16 years ago.) Also, he's spent the better part of our relationship convinced that eventually I will leave him, just like everyone else has. Because, refusing to commit to therapy, he feels at fault for everything that's happened to him. He still doesn't see that this was never about him, that there was nothing about him, and nothing he did, that made this happen.
Sometimes, "some" partners get frustrated... I know I do. I can't touch him, because of what someone else did, he doesn't trust me because of what someone else did. Makes it hard not to be angry at the "someone else." This doesn't mean I'm angry with him.
Always,
Liv


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#236351 - 07/06/08 03:56 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Liv2124]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
I apologize if I have come across harshly, and I have the utmost respect for most partners of survivors. But language in recovery is not just about being politically correct...

To say something as simple as, "This happened to me." Suggests that it is in the natural order of things that these things "happened" and that we are survivors because of them. When, in fact, and while the distinction seems subtle, it is an important one, these things did not happen...they were done to us. A sometimes subtle distinction that removes the guilt from a survivor and places it squarely on those who perpertrated the offense(s).

When I discussed this post with my wife...I got as far as saying "Survivors are..." she stopped me, said, "You mean some survivors..." Yes. Some survivors.

Language...is important...it is how we communicate our needs, wants and desires...it is hugely important in recovery to challenge our old beliefs. But imagine...how something as incredibly simple as changing the wording from, "What happened to you..." To, "What was done to you..." over time, how that can change a perception or belief. Because that is one of the most challenging obstacles we overcome, I think. To place the responsibility where it lies. It was not our fault.


Thank you


CD


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#236360 - 07/06/08 05:04 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: CDavid]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
CD,
Okay, I can see your perspective, but I would love to meet the person who sees csa having happened as being within "the natural order of things", no matter how it's stated.
I'll agree with you, language is important, and it's a wonderful thing that you and your wife have moved into a higher level of communication. For us, he still sees this as something he did.
This did happen to him, it was done to him, I think the overall truth, is that he didn't cause it, it wasn't anything about him that made it happen and he couldn't have prevented it. I think, when it comes to feelings, any wordage is appropriate if it gets the point across, and hopefully, it won't offend anyone in the process.
Thanks,
Liv


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#236485 - 07/07/08 05:48 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: CDavid]
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
Originally Posted By: CDavid
The word, "survivors" as it is used...suggests all survivors...rather than, perhaps, "some survivors" might exhibit the behaviors mentioned.



CDavid,

the reason this topic is posted at all - as well as the fact it's been responded to at length - is due to the vast similiarities us partners experience in dealing with survivor relationships.

to try and play with the semantics is just another - pardon me - survivor attempt at deflecting the subject at hand - which is, in fact, the problem of relationships (with survivors) and when they don't progress, or stagnate, or deteriorate inexplicably; partners are frequently at a loss as to understand if it's over, if it's not, or what the heck IS going on.

that in a nutshell, is it. too often it appears if we, the partners, are to move forward with our lives, we have to be the ones not just to end the relationship but to set forth the finality of it in terms the survivor can understand, if at all possible.

moreover, as far as "some" vs the generalization of "all" - there was never a specific mention of this being the case - that is, "all" - however, and this is important, any survivor should understand that's what's true for him(her) at one point in their healing journey may not be true at another point. Of course not all survivors travel the same path any more than all have been abused in the same way. No one would expect that or imply it, least of all me.

if none of this appears to apply to you then don't worry about, IMO. let it go, let it be.

Peace,
Indy



_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#236488 - 07/07/08 06:51 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: indygal]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
"if none of this appears to apply to you then don't worry about, IMO. let it go, let it be."

Yes, Mammm...

As you so eloquently put it, " Sorry guys, yes, if you weren't aware of it before, it's also maybe something else screwed up in your lives. Just look at it this way tho, knowing about it gives you amunition to deal with it, ok?"

Thank you so very much for the insight.


CD


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#236642 - 07/07/08 09:14 PM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: CDavid]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
Sorry CDavid, you've "triggered" me,
Having been responded to with "Yes, mamm" and being called "The guru" (in less than affectionate terms)
I think that 2 people who have connected in some way (EVEN, be them, partner and survivor, or survivor and partner,) They will either relate in a way that will work for them, or self destruct.
This is the "natural order of things"
Liv


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#236736 - 07/08/08 08:02 AM Re: Survivors and closure in relationships [Re: Liv2124]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
Liv,


I know it may seem like semantics, as has been pointed out, but the language we choose to use as we move through this process...is important.

If you care to...would you consider why you chose to write, "Sorry CDavid, you've "triggered" me..." You have explained that the words, "Yes, mamm" and "The guru" are triggering for you. I think we can safely assume that to be triggered is an unpleasant experience.

This is an excellent case in point, actually...as we wander through this...try to sort out how we get caught up in the language and responsibility issues in relationships.

It would certainly be fair to say, that there are a lot of survivors who may feel as though they are responsible for what was done to them. Few perpetrators take responsibility for their actions...even go so far as to suggest any number of things that suggest that the survivor is actually responsible for what was done to them.

Since I have no prior knowledge that these words are triggering for you...the fact that you have been triggered by them is not my responsibility. You may say, "I have been triggered by this exchange." But, to say that, "...you've triggered me..." is shifting the responsibility onto someone else.

Survivors, in general, have a lot of experience with that. It does not exactly open up an atmosphere of safety or willingness to talk.

As you say, it ain't easy. I have the utmost respect for your determination and certainly, stamina. But, if we keep on doing what we have always been doing, we are going to get the same results over and over...aren't we?


CD


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