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#23126 - 05/19/06 05:46 AM Was your abuse "voluntary"?
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
One of the things that bothered me so much about my abuse (there were lots of such things - in fact, I use the aforewritten set of words so often in this forum that I'm considering just making it an acronym - "OOTTTBMSMAMA") was that at the time, and for a long time afterwards, I considered all that I had done vis-a-vis the sexual activity to have been completely voluntary on my part. My abuse was not characterized by a violent, coercive, explicitly abusive nature - that indeed is one of the reasons it took so long for me to understand that it was, in fact, abuse.

Now, I already know, as do the rest of you, that when we get down to the brass tacks, non-violent child abusers use all kinds of tactics in order to trick, lull, or otherwise convince kids to not only "consent" (such as it was) to the abuse, but to even consider themselves to be the instigators of the activity. Like I posted so long ago, kids are essentially stupid - and there's always somebody willing to take advantage of stupidity. For this reason, the "voluntary" problem does not bother me any more, and we can stay away from that whole set of argument.

Now, I've been arguing lately on another message board (I'd rather not post a link - but it's not a pro-pedophile board; I won't even bother trying to argue with THOSE freaks) with somebody who thinks that it's possible that, if such activity can be shown to not be harmful, then it should be legal for adults to have sex with kids when that sex is not physically injurous AND the child "consents". I've tried explaining to him that children aren't capable of consenting, and that there have been studies which explain why that is so in physical and psychological terms. He won't believe me until I can give him the exact name of such a study - which I don't have. Nevermind.

I personally know for a fact that his postulation is wrong, because my abuse was not physically injurous AND it could have been considered voluntary at the time. And here I am; I've definitely been harmed by it. I haven't been treated by any mental health professionals (not much for therapy, me), but I have certainly detailed many times in this forum the problems I have regarding social contact, and sex in particular, that I have suffered since and because of the abuse.

But these facts don't help me, because I don't plan on revealing them directly to him. Firstly, because I consider it bad form in an argument to say "I know better because I was abused" - that's a cheap shot, and too much like cheating. Secondly, I'm not quite sure if I want this guy to know I am an abuse victim - even if it means having to put up with him ignorantly characterizing me as somebody who doesn't know anything about the topic. For example, he recently posted that

Quote:
To be frank, I think you get such a self-righteous kick from crusading about this issue that you just aren't interested in finding out for sure if "voluntary" sex is safe at twelve, or thirteen, or fourteen, or fifteen, or sixteen, or seventeen, or eighteen. You just want to play Saviour of the Children, for values of children defined by whatever your local taboos are, even if that actually harms some children.
It's infuriating, but I'll live. Bear in mind that I don't believe this guy is a pedophile, or would consider engaging in such activities. He's just somebody that's so caught up on things only mattering when they've been "officially" or "professionally" collated in some kind of study, that even in such an obvious topic as this, he can't see the forest for the trees. Meanwhile, another one of the ways he attacks my position is that (aside from myself, which I won't tell him about) I can't really give any "numbers" as to how many harm-suffering abuse victims' experiences involved non-physically-injurous, "voluntary" (at the time) sexual activities. I'm not entirely sure it's worth the time and effort to gather evidence just to convince him that I am right; however, I am for my OWN benefit interested in the prevalence of this set of circumstances.

So, were any of you abused in this way? Where the experience was at the time, or at least initially, "voluntary" (again, not considering the pedophiles' responsibility for creating that "voluntary" attitude) and not physically injurous? Or is my own experience really that unique?

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#23127 - 05/19/06 06:05 AM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
ShyBear Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/08/05
Posts: 149
Loc: The American South
My abuse was "voluntary", and I used to mercilessly beat myself up for it until I came to understand manipulation and the Adult-Child power differential. And it was also not physically injurious, nor was it violent. My abuser had so well manipulated me that I was the one who "initiated" the sex !

Then, when the first pangs of shame and confusion set in, I truly voluntarily sought out a fundamentalist Christian to talk to (because all Christians are kind, wise and understanding, right ?), which resulted in my non-physical, yet extremely violent, spiritual rape.


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#23128 - 05/19/06 09:48 AM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Melliferal,

To be honest, I think saying that abuse of a child can be "voluntary" begs the question of what "voluntary" would mean in such a situation.

When the man who abused me stood before me for the first time, he told me to take off my trousers and I did it - because he was an adult and I knew him. I felt awkward and uncomfortable, but I did it. Was that voluntary?

Well, first thing is that I was alone with him in his house. He was standing in front of me in his underwear with an erection. I was trapped in his son's room, with him between me and the door. I genuinely had no idea that what was happening was sexual, even when he kissed me and put his hand down my underpants.

There was no physical violence yet - that came later. And I wasn't threatened either; that too was a later item on the menu. But I don't think there was anything voluntary about what was happening. If he had ASKED me at my home, in front of my parents, would I like to go home with him alone, get undressed, and have him fondle and kiss me for half an hour, I think I would have run to get behind my Dad as fast as possible.

I know what you're asking, but even if we choose different words I think we are back to your great sign-off line: "Children cannot consent; they can only comply."

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#23130 - 05/19/06 12:11 PM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
JapanZen,

This is a valuable example. Can we pursue it for a moment? I'd like to ask you if, as a preteen, your "volunteering" was a freely made and informed decision (the choice was masturbating him or getting raped). Or was it the compliance of a frightened boy who felt he was worthless and beyond hope? Is a preteen capable of discerning the fact that offering sex in return for cigs, alcohol and money isn't exactly unproblematic?

I hope I don't sound like I'm trying to corner you. I just wanted to explore this whole idea of the thread: what it means for a kid to "volunteer" sex to the abuser. By the time I was doing that I can now see that I was an utterly devastated kid. I did it because I thought nothing would make any difference, and anyway, I wasn't worth any better than that.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#23132 - 05/19/06 12:43 PM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
JapanZen,

You know where I am coming from? Oh good!!! Can you tell me please? ;\)

But moving on...I think you make another key point here:

Quote:
I was brought up to provide sex, back as far as I can remember. I didnt know any difference...
That was me to a T as well. I think that's what made the period after the abuse ended especially horrific. It was only then that I really started to ask the questions that made me see how badly I had been used and betrayed. At age 11 I didn't even know what he was doing was sexual. Okay, it was 1960 and things were different then, but still I suppose I was very naive.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#23133 - 05/19/06 01:27 PM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
george of kent Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 305
Loc: delaware
Melliferal,
No, as we can gather from the responses above, you are not at all "unique" in your experience.
For 50 years I believed that I was the "agressor" in an abusive relationship with the man who eventually became my stepfather. I "initiated" things, I was the one "in control." (I was 14, he was 24+ when the sexual activity began)
The absurdity of such thinking never even occurred to me until last year.
All of our stories are unique; but so many of them have so many common threads. You (We) are not alone.
Much love, etc.,

_________________________
"We are only two and yet our howling can encircle the world's end.
Frightened, you are my only friend.
And frightened we are, every one.
Someone must take a stand -- Coward, take my coward's hand"
Arthur Laurents

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#23134 - 05/19/06 01:54 PM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
Elad 12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1176
Loc: on the coast
I really have to agree with Larry's points. I just posted elsewhere that I asked my perp if wanted to pee in my mouth when I was 8 years old so that he wouldn't do the anal thing. Was that "voluntary" or was I the perpetrator? I don't think so.

Dale


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#23135 - 05/19/06 02:42 PM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
Curtis St. John Offline
Past President
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/20/04
Posts: 1796
Loc: Westchester, N.Y.
Quote:
Bear in mind that I don't believe this guy is a pedophile, or would consider engaging in such activities. He's just somebody that's so caught up on things only mattering when they've been "officially" or "professionally" collated in some kind of study, that even in such an obvious topic as this, he can't see the forest for the trees.
Just food for thought… maybe he is a survivor as well and a ‘voluntary’ participant. And as long as he is able to believe this is not abuse then he is safe from the idea he himself was abused.

This would allow him to blame all his problems on something other then what he is most afraid of and never have to approach the subject with a therapist or partner. In his own head he would be rationalizing that it’s not even worth mentioning because it wasn’t abuse and could not possibly be the root of any issues.


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#23136 - 05/19/06 07:28 PM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
ShyBear Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/08/05
Posts: 149
Loc: The American South
Quote:
Originally posted by JapanZen:
Yeah, I volunteered half the time. To be frank I knew if I offered to wank him off I wouldnt get raped.
One of the incredibly liberating things I learned at the Atlanta / Simpsonwood retreat was summed up in one sentence :

"Yes" is meaningless if "No" is not an option.

Another way of saying that is, we are NOT giving true, free-will consent (to an act of abuse) when that "consent" is given to AVOID abuse even more horrible, more terrifying, more painful.

In your case, JapanZen, saying "Yes" to masturbating your perp - even "volunteering" to do it - was to avoid being raped. You never had the option to say "No", to say "No, I don't want ANY OF THIS".


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#23137 - 05/19/06 07:35 PM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Melliferal and everyone else - if those people on the message board are arguing that there is nothing wrong with having sex with a child... then that only leads me to think one thing of them! They are potential paedophiles if they are not already!

Ask them if they have kids of their own, and how they would feel if some 'mature' adult had sex with them.

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#23138 - 05/19/06 07:48 PM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Melliferal,

Quote:
I've tried explaining to him that children aren't capable of consenting, and that there have been studies which explain why that is so in physical and psychological terms. He won't believe me until I can give him the exact name of such a study - which I don't have.
Try the books by Mik Hunter and Mike Lew, both of which have bibliographies and good references.

But your friend is talking crap from beginning to end. Does he ask for proof that the oceans are salt water, or that the earth revolves around the sun, or that Germany is in Europe?

Bro, people like this are toxic in my humble opinion. If you enjoy this person's company for other reasons and in other contexts, fine, but I would suggest that you just never raise the issue of child abuse with him.

Actually, no. I can't go that far. For me, to listen to people talk as if it's okay to have sex with kids is as morally reprehensible as trying to give a fair hearing to Holocaust deniers.

It just ain't happening, at least, not in MY house!

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#23139 - 05/19/06 08:18 PM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
onlyakid Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1552
Loc: New Jersey
Quote:
Originally posted by Curtis St. John:
Just food for thought… maybe he is a survivor as well and a ‘voluntary’ participant. And as long as he is able to believe this is not abuse then he is safe from the idea he himself was abused.

This would allow him to blame all his problems on something other then what he is most afraid of and never have to approach the subject with a therapist or partner. In his own head he would be rationalizing that it’s not even worth mentioning because it wasn’t abuse and could not possibly be the root of any issues. [/QB]
Thats always been something that has been difficult for me, trying to convience myself that even though I initated it at times and it was non-violent (that I can remember) that it was still abuse and it has effected me. I have to keep reminding myself that

a. my brother was bigger than me
b. I had no idea what sex was (I was in the 6th grade)
c. I looked up to and thought he had the answers.

_________________________
"Being with people that understand you...Priceless"

"and i don't want the world to see me, cause i don't think that they'd understand"

"You don't know what love is...you just do as your told"

"My life has changed. What you take as a simple thing, is not so simple for me anymore"


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#23140 - 05/19/06 08:30 PM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I think this 'consent' thing must have caused massive damage to anybody who thought they must have been complicit.

Imagine the thought of a child being asked in court if he enjoyed it.
Is that not enough to keep silent?
If not, what is?

Abuse is a violation of your body, it is not for somebody to just take away.
It is more to do with the emotional damage that ensues as a a result of it,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#23141 - 05/20/06 12:51 AM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Quote:
Originally posted by RICK57:
Melliferal and everyone else - if those people on the message board are arguing that there is nothing wrong with having sex with a child... then that only leads me to think one thing of them! They are potential paedophiles if they are not already!

Ask them if they have kids of their own, and how they would feel if some 'mature' adult had sex with them.

Best wishes ...Rik
He has indicated he probably wouldn't want an adult doing anything with his kids if he had kids. It's funny - whenever anyone tries to peg him on whether or not he would actually condone the activity, he says he wouldn't. But he's still so adamant about pursuing the topic. He puts a LOT of time and effort into his posts. His claim is that, if there is the mere potential of injustice when a person is jailed for a "safe (as in non-injurous) and consentual" sex act with a minor, it's worth "studying" to make absolute certain that such children are harmed enough to warrant putting people in jail - his latest tag-on qualifier is that the abuse victims need to "more screwed up than the average American" in order for their "harm" to actually count as harm. When I and several others explained that there certainly is harm, he demanded proof that the harm to children comes from the sexual activity, as opposed to the harm to children coming merely from "society's attitude toward adult/child sex". How am I supposed to prove something like this? The answer is, I'm not supposed to be able to prove it. It's rhetorical, and it's just argument "strategy". To be the one to ask the question your opponent can't answer is to make your position look better.

I still don't think he's a pedophile. He's just lacking in any sort of empathy whatsoever. But nevermind him.

There's a sort of paradoxical feeling, isn't there, when you find out you're not "alone" in an experience like the sort discussed in this thread. You're not sure whether to be happy that you have company, or feel even worse knowing other people had to endure the same thing.

Our lot, huh?

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#23142 - 05/20/06 03:00 AM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
tell him how it feels after. when even an 11 year old knows something bad has happened . sounds like a nambla spokesman to me.thats the same crap you can read on their site ,but they dont think they are pedophiles either. even saying it could be ok in some crazy way shows that he does not think it;s wrong to have sex with a minor under certain conditions .so define pedophile ,a person who thinks its ok to have sex with a minor ! its not ok under any conditions shadow

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#23143 - 05/20/06 03:26 AM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Well shadow, when you put it so simply, I suppose you're absolutely right.

Luckily, there are only two of "him" on this other message board - a science/skepticism-themed board. Well, one of HIM - the only other pro-pedo person on there has a position so extreme and insane that he makes the person I'm arguing with seem like the calm, cool voice of reason. It's a big board, with lots of topics - but everybody except a few brave souls seems to be avoiding this one, heh. On the pro-pedo side, there's these two. The whacko guy - well, nobody likes him or believes him, so I don't need to argue with him. This other person, Mr. Rational, though, tends to make well-structured (if not well-supported) arguments - worthy of rebuttal. So I feel I have to argue with him. After all - if I don't argue, the terrorists win. \:\)

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#23144 - 05/20/06 03:42 AM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
give him hell buddy !i agree totaly

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#23145 - 05/20/06 01:53 PM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
Elad 12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1176
Loc: on the coast
I don't think it should be called volunteering. I think it should be called surviving.

Dale


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#23146 - 05/20/06 02:23 PM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
ak Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
That person sound very obnoxioous.

My abuse, most of it, it was from four different men, and all but one of them was violent to me, one more then others, but still violence.

More recent though, I have talk with some friends of my first 'girlfriend'. I was 13. She was ten years older. It did not certainly feel as it was 'abuse', it was quite pleasant, physicaly, and did not seem not normal to me. But then, the abuse had been happening for two years already, do I know then what is 'normal' for sexual behavior? Several friends have told to me that what she done, it was no better then the other abuse, even violent abuse, it was adult 'using' a child for her purposes.

I do not know what to think on it. I do not know I could call it 'abuse' even now after thinking on it and talking on it. But I know more now it is 'not proper'. And I think maybe, it do afect me in how I relate to girls at all. So maybe it was some way.

That other person, I do not know he is worth your energy to argue with. But I think most persons here would say abuse is not voluntary. As child, even more smart and growed up child, we have less 'judgment' to make choices of things as this. That is to take advantage of someone who is not as prepared to think it more for themself.

Andrei


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#23147 - 05/20/06 02:57 PM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
In the interest of your own safety of mind, it is best that you stay away from those sites.

I know the short time I spent many years ago were pretty nerve wracking.

You CANNOT tell them it is wrong what they do, and a lot of them are police, judges etc.,etc.
Not many of them will have a dirty overcoat,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#23148 - 05/20/06 04:07 PM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Quote:
Originally posted by Elad 12:
I don't think it should be called volunteering. I think it should be called surviving.

Dale
In the strictest sense, this is the point I'm trying to make.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#23149 - 05/21/06 01:14 AM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
If he wants the results of surveys, then sorry I cannot provide that.

I could say that on the surface, what I experienced in 1969 could be described as concensual (by those that have an interest in describing it as so).

The reality (in a nutshell) is that, as a very young child (2 to 8 years old) I used to go on long walks with both of my grandfathers and one uncle. Sometimes all of us together (and others), sometimes just me with one of them. There was never anything untoward on any of those walks! What was pretty common, was that the adults would always bring sandwiches / fruit / sweets. Even before starting school (4.5 years old) I would walk for up to 9 miles with my paternal grandfather (probably explains why I was always hungry & why I have stamina now).

At 8 years old, we moved to a different town & I had to make new friends, didn't have the same contact with the elders from my family. Only saw them on weekends. In the old town, I had loads of friends., played football at school and was actually in a school year above the one that I should have been in for my age!

When we moved everything changed....the kids all had their own little gangs, and weren't really interested in anyone new. I still made friends, but they were the ones that were intelligent, but socially incompetent.

One day I complained to the teacher that the 'cricket clique' wouldn't allow us to join in! She was good & gave them a right bollocking - I bowled 4 of them out in one over! I couldn't be bothered with them after that!

We were also introduced to Rugby in the last year in Junior School - I was quite good at that also! I think this is when I first started to realise that some people were only strong in numbers!

After that, we were divided by ability for our secondary school - I went to Grammar School, and most of my friends went to secondary modern (with one exception).

First year was great...made new friends and settled in well! Got some excellent reports!

Also realised that the 'clique' from Junior School were not half as 'sporty/athletic' as they thought. First time we did cross country running, I started with everyone else, then gradually all of the sprinters started falling behind. Eventaully I was in front - I stayed in front for the next 5 years before I started work ( I don't mean that I ran for five years, just every time we did run, I was at the front). It was a valuable lesson for life - it's no good being able to run for 10 seconds, you've got to be able to keep going until you reach your destination.

2nd year, a friend of my new friends had done well at Secondary Modern, so had been allocated a slot at our school in the 3rd year. From day one he just stirred up trouble and the new friendships collapsed.

This left me in a vulnerable situation, with few friends (although the situation was later rectified, but too late).

I took my dog for a walk, and this is where I met the biggest mistake of my life! He co-erced me with sweets/fruit/money - didn't seem any different to my Grandparents, or Uncles...but he was so much different!

Was it consensual, or was I just Pavlov's dog (yes I know it's a slightly different scenario, but I was salivating at TRUST - I actually got a psychological kicking and more).

He didn't beat me up at the time! He didn't threaten me that anyone I was close to would die! He didn't say that I would go to hell if I told! He did say that he never made anyone do anything that they didn't want to (I didn't understand what he meant). During the grooming process, he asked me if 'I had ever relieved myself'? I was so thick that I thought he actually meant urinating and again didn't understand the question! He did imply that everyone did what we were doing, but never spoke about it!

Let me simplify how I feel about all of that now!

He was a pure abusive **** that used me for his own ends! I had less than zero understanding of what he wanted/requested from me, so I could not consent! Did it hurt me - well I have suffered mental trauma since 1969.. it got a hell of a lot worse around 2001, and is only now starting to wane because I took the ******* to court and got him convicted!

I very much know where I stand on this topic - one conviction is not enough! The conviction that has been achieved is pathetic & the judiciary need to very much get there act together!

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#23150 - 05/21/06 02:18 AM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
if numbers are his game ,i know of an ongoing study with over 300 expert researchers, it called male survivor ,invite him over sometime,i would like to debate with him .

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#23151 - 05/21/06 02:20 AM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
sorry i meant 3000 researchers

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#23152 - 05/21/06 10:23 AM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
Kirk Wayne Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK
I was brainwashed into believing that and I'm afraid that is what did the most damage ...... for many, many years.

Kirk
"Lets grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"


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#23153 - 05/22/06 08:20 AM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Quote:
Originally posted by reality2k4:
In the interest of your own safety of mind, it is best that you stay away from those sites.

I know the short time I spent many years ago were pretty nerve wracking.

You CANNOT tell them it is wrong what they do, and a lot of them are police, judges etc.,etc.
Not many of them will have a dirty overcoat,

ste
I used to argue with these sorts of people all the time. Not on this particular website - but other ones, completely unrelated to pedophilia, in which some poster says something with a suggestively pervish slant; when called on it, the perv usually comes out with the standard garbage, easy to refute. The anonymity of the internet makes pedophiles all uppity.

The one single time in my entire life that I've ever "triggered", was as a result of one of these arguments. Lots of pedos post links to this one particular study they think supports their position (the study has not been independently corroborated with repeated similar numbers, but still). So I'm used to pervs posting links, right? Well, I follow a perv's link one day, expecting to find the same old garbage. Well, this site, along with its arguments about why adults should be allowed to have sex with kids, is plastered all over with photos. Lots of photos, of child pornography. Not technically illegal; the photos were strategically cropped so as to eliminate anything criminal. But it was obvious what they were. The site says "look at the kids in these photos, do they look like they're being tortured or abused?" Of course not.

I sort of blanked out, for a couple of minutes. Once I seemed to be able to move my arms again, I closed the webpage, turned the computer off, went over to the couch, and just sort of sat there, staring into space. I was overloaded. We know that some pervs use child pornography to groom their victims, but this site really brought it home in a clear, in-your-face way. I think that if I had seen my own young face in amongst those photos, I might easily have lost my mind. And my face may indeed be there, somewhere down the page. I didn't look - and I'm not going to. No, in none of the videos they made did I look at all unhappy or tortured. Guess that means it was all just fine, huh?

The bastards.

That incident made me lose the will to do that sort of arguing from that point forward. I ended my participation in the ongoing discussions and just avoided the topic of child abuse completely.

I'm starting to gain that will back. I'm not sure I'll be following any pedo's links any time soon - I'm just not able to, sorry - but I can still argue a good show.

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Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

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#23154 - 05/22/06 08:47 PM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
cavcoach Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/07/06
Posts: 2
One of the things that I have found as I have tried to deal with the abuse that I suffered at the hands of an older cousin, is that I for a long time did not acknowledge what happened as abuse because I had orgasms..or because I did wiilingly initiate sexual contact..It was years before I was able to see exactly what someone else said earlier of "yes is not a yes when no is not an option". I am still working through dealing with the sexual identitty issues that it has left me with but I hope that through this place, and my therapy I can continue to move forward. I guess my point is to merely say that anyone that went through abuse and has had the feelings of "was it abuse if it felt good" should know that they are not alone.


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#23155 - 05/23/06 06:31 AM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
jesse7 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 105
Loc: AZ
Quote:
Originally posted by cavcoach:
I for a long time did not acknowledge what happened as abuse because I had orgasms..
I had them too, but I wasn't given a choice.

Jesse

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What lies before us and what lies behind us is nothing compared to what lies within us

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#23156 - 05/23/06 06:37 AM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
jesse7 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 105
Loc: AZ
Quote:
Originally posted by ShyBear:

Then, when the first pangs of shame and confusion set in, I truly voluntarily sought out a fundamentalist Christian to talk to (because all Christians are kind, wise and understanding, right ?), which resulted in my non-physical, yet extremely violent, spiritual rape.
I too joined a fundamentalist church. Not only did I suffer severe emotional and physical damage from various perps, the church added its share of psychological and spiritual damage to boot. The result--toxic shame.

Jesse

_________________________
What lies before us and what lies behind us is nothing compared to what lies within us

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#23157 - 05/23/06 12:26 PM Re: Was your abuse "voluntary"?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
I thought I would reprint two bits that are posted elsewhere on this site, since the issue of “liking it” has come up so often on this thread.

This one is from “Myths about Male Sexual Victimization”, which you can find on the home page:

Quote:
Myth #3 - If a boy experiences sexual arousal or orgasm from abuse, this means he was a willing participant or enjoyed it.

In reality, males can respond physically to stimulation (get an erection) even in traumatic or painful sexual situations. Therapists who work with sexual offenders know that one way a perpetrator can maintain secrecy is to label the child's sexual response as an indication of his willingness to participate. "You liked it, you wanted it," they'll say. Many survivors feel guilt and shame because they experienced physical arousal while being abused. Physical (and visual or auditory) stimulation is likely to happen in a sexual situation. It does not mean that the child wanted the experience or understood what it meant at the time.
The second is from a message to teenage survivors on our DB home page, under “Survivors” --> “Adolescent Survivors”.

Quote:
Sometimes It Felt Good

Your body is designed to respond to physical stimulus whether you want it to or not. If you ejaculated, had an erection or felt powerful feelings of arousal, this is normal. How is it possible to feel so frightened, experience tremendous physical pain and become aroused too? Because you cannot control your body's natural responses to sexual stimulus. If you think that because you experienced pleasure you must have wanted it or that if it felt good it wasn't abusive you're wrong. It was abusive and you did nothing to deserve it. Your body's natural responses were betrayed by someone who used you for their gratification and needs. Perhaps this story will help you understand.

It's a really hot day outside and you have been working hard mowing the grass. Your neighbor gives you an ice cold glass of lemonade to help you combat the heat. Feel the chill of the glass in your hand when you take it from him. Notice the water beneath your fingers from the condensation on the glass? As you lift it to your mouth there is a faint wisp of cold air against your nose. You begin to drink and your throat constricts in shock from the sudden cold. Remember when you drank so fast your chest would hurt, but you wouldn't stop drinking because it tasted so sweet and felt so refreshing. Even though your teeth hurt, your chest was exploding and you were holding your breath you kept swallowing great gulps. When someone is sexually fondling you, it may be physically painful and you may be scared and angry, but you cannot keep your body from responding.
These pretty much sum up the issue of “liking it” and have been very helpful to me. I always thought “You liked it” was one of the cruelest lies abusers have in their repertoire.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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