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#22807 - 07/29/05 05:40 PM Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
TRIGGER WARNING.

Firstly I would point out that at the top of the forums there is a post regarding the policy of MS toward suicide and threats of suicide, which I hope everyone has read.

"If you are considering suicide, read this"

http://malesurvivor.org/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004654

This existing policy was created a short while ago when it became clear that MS is not, and possibly never will be, fully able to deal with potential suicides.
The links posted are however to specialists where specific help is available.

This doesn't mean that we are insensitive towards people with suicidal thoughts, and we wouldn't turn them away without doing whatever we could to help them. But we are not 'experts' in that field.

So, after this discussion started on the other topic I though I would bring it here and see what people think.
Can we improve the list of links? Is there something else we can do to make it easier to find the right help?

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#22808 - 07/29/05 05:45 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
These are the posts from Jasper and Roadrunner taken, without any editing, from the MedicB4 topic.

Quote:
Jasper50
Guest
Member # 2631

posted 29-07-2005 10:58 AMJuly 29, 2005 10:58 AM

I am so terribly sorry for this loss. My heart goes out to his wife and children. But I call on the Board of Directors and Moderators to come up with some kind of mechanism in which these matters can be discussed.

Recently, I alluded to self-harm in a post. Shortly after this I noticed that MedicB4 was also discussing feelings about self-harm. Instead of immediately offering him assistance, I was embarrassed if the truth be known. Embarrassed because we are not supposed to have these feelings. Nor are they to be discussed.

I have to be frank here. It would be a disservice to his memory were I to do otherwise. And forgive me if this puts me in trouble.

The other day when I apologized for alluding to self-harm in a post, I deeply regretted that I did it publicly. And that I somehow was making another member seem responsible. But shortly after posting that message, I CALLED A SUICIDE PREVENTION HOTLINE. I got the number right here from this site.

So yes, one day I did not take action. I lived to embrace life again and even start a funny thread in the gay forum.

Somehow we must as a community find a way to be able to talk about self-harm, not in a threatening way, not in a triggering way (well, that's proably impossible--I'm triggered all over the place right now). But in some way that at least allows us to vent and maybe discuss our experiences in calling suicide hotlines or whatever.

Damn! I can't say what I think. I can't say what I feel right now.

I don't approve but believe me I understand. And that is the most awful thing I think any survivor can say.

I am so deeply sorry.

Got to go,

Jasper

P.S. Everyone who is disturbed by this, and who is even remotely thinking along these lines, try this number (in the U.S.):

1-800-273-TALK

They are good people. I talked to them on Monday. And heck--I may even call them again today. It doesn't matter who you call--just call dammit!

Jasper

**********************************************


roadrunner
Member
Member # 2590

posted 29-07-2005 12:16 PMJuly 29, 2005 12:16 PM

Jasper,

I was wondering much the same thing once I heard of Scott's death. It really hit me hard in the wake of other things that have happened here recently.

I too wonder if something can be done here about this problem. I take the point that the BoD and mods are not running a suicide crisis center here, and that this sort of thing is a lot different from just managing and focusing discussion among survivors of CSA. But I would like to ask if this can at least be looked at. Specifically:

* Is the suicide warning properly worded? Does it give a message that can be misinterpreted?
* Is there any way of establishing a kind of "safety net" here? I'm not sure what I mean by that. Certainly not any kind of formal counselling service, but just some way that someone in danger can be snagged before things get out of hand and helped to seek professional help. I ask because so many of us have very close personal friendships here, and might be more willing to speak to a friend here than to ring a hotline.

The guys at risk are our friends and brothers, so of course we want to do something - or see something done. But here are some points I think we all have to accept in this very sensitive and triggering area:

* This is a can of worms and for all kinds of practical - not to mention legal - reasons it may not be possible to do anything more. A website cannot save the world from boyhood SA and its consequences.
* It is not reasonable to ask the the BoD or mods to consult us or start a dialogue on this one. It they think things might require a fresh look, fine, but they are the trained professionals and are best equipped to handle such matters.
* The BoD and mods already have a pile of pending issues to deal with: 3-4 major items that I know of, and I assume there are others.
* It is not immediately clear to me how or if a discussion of points relevant to this issue can be pursued while maintaining the very important ban on threatening self-harm here.

Take care,
Larry

**********************************************

Jasper50
Guest
Member # 2631

posted 29-07-2005 01:21 PMJuly 29, 2005 01:21 PM

quote:It is not immediately clear to me how or if a discussion of points relevant to this issue can be pursued while maintaining the very important ban on threatening self-harm here.
Yes, Larry! That is the very predicament in which I find myself now. And I think your analysis of this situation is right on. It does indeed open an awful can of worms.

I only know for myself that this site is an integral part of my life. I can talk about things here that I can't talk about elsewhere. Not even in therapy. At least, I find I need to talk about it here first, kind of try it out, then I can maybe discuss it with my therapist.

So this place takes on a larger than life role in my life. When I made that stupid pronouncement about leaving, I was totally devastated the next day. To the point of self-harm. I thought I lost the only real group of people who understand me.

So when I called the suicide hotline on Monday, it was a counselor there who helped me see how ridiculous it was, in my case, to take my life instead of just saying, hey, I'm sorry, can I please stay.

But the reason I called the suicide hotline is because I made a promise to my doctor, my partner, my friends, to Larry, to my therapist, and to others that I WILL ALWAYS CALL SOMEONE WHEN I FEEL SUICIDAL.

And I guess that's the best we can do here. Make a deal with each other that we will call a suicide hotline when we feel that way.

God, this kills me so much right now. Because I know it sounds crazy but MedicB4 only started talking about self-harm after I mentioned it in my stupid "report the perps" thread.

Did he get the idea from me?

Maybe that sounds dumb. I know it's highly unlikely. But this is how devastating a suicide can be. So many people get hurt.

Reminder: Call 1-800-273-TALK in the U.S.

If you are in the U.K. please post the number there.

And please, if you are in Sweden, we need that number too.

God help us all. We will get through this. But I am so sorry for being afraid to speak to MedicB4 when he started expressing those feelings. Feelings that we shared. And that others here experience too.

Love you guys!

Jasper

P.S. Stay safe--please!!! Talk to someone--please!!

****************************************************************


_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#22810 - 07/29/05 06:57 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
Dave - This is an important discussion. Might I suggest that the post on the Male Survivor Message Board is not obvious enough? There are four 'permanent' posts at the top of the page that I scroll by every time I come to the site. I hardly think that a notice to American Express cardholders should trump a notice to those who are feeling suicidal. The link to those who are feeling suicidal should be in BIG RED flashing letters, should stand alone, should be the first thing anyone can see on each and every page of this website.

MS has a mission, to provide support and resources for men who have been sexually abused. But we, the members here, are the core, the driving force behind the support that is given to our survivor brothers. Those of us who have found our way out of despair have a duty, yes, an obligation, to provide help and support to those who come after us. We all have a responsibility to do what we can to see that those whose shoes we've been in get to the other side of despair. We have to show that there is hope.

The survivors here and MS are limited in what we can do, this is cyberspace after all. I may not agree with the politics of this place all the time, but, ultimately, that is not why I come here. I come here to learn and to offer support where I can. Once again, I call all of the survivors here to arms. We MUST commit to surviving, we must commit to life, we must commit to offering help and support and assistance to our brothers who are in despair. We MUST let them know that there is hope, that the pain will go away and we must be instrumental in making that happen.

I want to hold you all close and make the pain go away. - John


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#22812 - 07/29/05 07:20 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
There is an 'At Risk' forum. That would perhaps be more appropriate place to post of suicidal thoughts, if at all. Unfortunately, it is a selection process to go there, you must ask permission to access it and I would think it could take a day or two to have access.

But the fact is, this place can NOT be responsible for saving suicidal people. And talk of it, talk of self harm and 'ending it' triggers the shit out of other people here. I know of an incident in the members forum not to long ago, of someone making a post that was taken as suicidal by at least one member here and a moderator. Both responded to this person multiple times in a short span of time (it was in the middle of the night), and also PMed the person several times. I have my own opinions of that post and that situation. But I also have my own opinion of the two people, the member and moderator who were trying very hard to help this person. This person could have asked for no kinder, gentler and decent persons in the world to help him. And both were also quite upset and triggered greatly, feeling 'obligation' to continue responding to this person, to not go to bed or leave the computer, for fear that when this person do respond, they would not be there to respond back to him.

I think the situation with 'medicb4' shows that there will be times when a suicidal person will NOT talk of it, and will behave seemingly normal up to the point of doing their act.

This has been a hard week here, harder for some then others. I did not know medicb4, although I had responded to a few of his posts. I knew Jake, but not as well as many others. But for all of us remaining here, there is pain, upset and anger. I worry that such discussion as this will 'stir it' more and not allow the scab to form to begin healing from this.

And I do agree that the 'suicidal resources' post needs to be at the top of all the forums, and highlighted somehow in different color or something. That is all I wish to say on the subject.

Leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#22813 - 07/29/05 07:34 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I echo Leosha here, but I think that these topics should just be moved to unmod forum.

The reason I say this, is that there are vulnerable members here, some are away at the moment, but it will scare the hell out of them.

It is also not very good for the lurkers who may be wanting to make a first step and join, yes, I know the point is relevent, but I think it should be in a safer forum.

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#22814 - 07/29/05 08:06 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
RobertC Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/13/05
Posts: 18
Loc: Decline to state
About four months ago I called the suicide prevention hotline. I kid you not, they put me on hold. I started laughing about the sitution. It had such a Rodny Dangerfield quality to it. The laughing broke my mood. I am not a fan of comedy. However, this just worked.

A friend of mine once told me that he had clled the suicide prevention hotline and they had put him on hold. I always, sort of, doubted that it had happened. After my experince, I know he may have been telling the truth. The friend I mention shot himself, and died, about four years ago; while studying for his bar exam.


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#22816 - 07/29/05 08:28 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Jasper, I am not trying to suppress anyones feelings, but as we know, sometimes a certain word can push someone over.

There are a lot of things that have happened in this place that you are not aware of, and I sure dont want to see anyone else go.

Everyone is unique in their perception and makeup, but other things are happening also.

I just do not think this subject should be in the main forum, because the vulnerable ones can take it all wrong.

For ppl who really know me, I tried it at 11 and nearly did it, and then again at 14, the magic numbers, then the guy next door to me as a kid gassed himself, and I was his sons best friend.

The nature of abuse does silence us, and sometimes it is not so apparent just how bad a person may feel.

I have read his posts, the first thing I did when I heard the news.

I just dont want anyone else hurt,

regards,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#22819 - 07/29/05 08:53 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Jasper, things happen in here, and I dont like this topic being discussed in this forum, and I am not going to turn it into an argument.

Things go on in here, like ppl make a comment without thinking how the other person will take it, I, on the other hand reread my posts, and I am careful to not hurt or put false feelings out.

Some ppl have made comments to others who have taken great offence, and you can guess who picks up the pieces cant you.

I am sick of doing it, and it saps me sometimes, but I carry on because I care, and I am here for others when they need me, just as they look after me, and I am eternally grateful to these guys.

The mods do a lot of work behind the scenes here, and we do not always have an idea how hard it can be for them to deal with things.

This has been the worst week of my life, I lose my little brother Jake, and the last words he said were, wont be at the compt ste, but i be bak when i can and i will be better and we all will get better together.

I just think the main forum should be about recovery issues, and you may think I do not post so much in this forum, but I never post hurt here,I leave that to members forum.

Peace,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

Top
#22821 - 07/29/05 09:37 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
demonboi Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 228
Loc: East Coast


_________________________
Every corner, every city
There's a place where life's a little easy
Little Hennessy, laid back and cool
Every hour, cause it's all good
Leave all the stress from the world outside
Every wrong done will be alright
Nothin but peace, love
And street passion, every ghetto needs a thug mansion

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#22822 - 07/29/05 09:41 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
lostcowboy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 797
Loc: North Texas
I think it would be very good to have a self harm forum like they do over at Pandora's Aquarium. MedicB4 was a member there but he did not use that forum. After finding out that MedicB4 had passed away I checked his last posts, and sent one to Lloydy that was related to his passing away. 20/20 vision is always perfect, but if I had read that message on Tuesday, I would have passed it over, the way he wrote it I thought he was talking about something he had done in his past.

_________________________
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

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#22823 - 07/29/05 10:07 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
For someone feeling suicidal, this is not the place to be. MS forum is not equipped to help someone in acute crisis. Rather than logging on to MS discussion forum, they need to be calling a crisis line. I think the policy we currently have in place is adequate. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#22825 - 07/29/05 10:14 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Jasper, I dont carry the weight of the World on my shoulders, and if I do, then is that right?

I do not post my hurt here, cos others sometimes take it the wrong way, and I cannot risk hurting them, so it feels safer to do it in members.

People tell me things in confidence, because I have experience in dealing with issues, and even if it hurts me, I look at it, because I was trained in that area.

If I post feeling bad in this forum, then I get so many concerned PMs, and these are great ppl who really care, but I dont mind taking on the hurt of others cos it is just me, and they know, I am totally confidential with what they say.

I was hurting myself a couple of weeks ago, and these guys, and the women really cared for me, so I find so many good ppl here, and I have been here a long time, and I see the things that can go on.

I really do not know where this topic is going, and I dont want see it turn out ugly, but yes, it is my duty to help, it always was, since I was a lil kid.

Follow my posts, and yeah, we can all feel all alone and nobody to be there, like where do we go and stuff, and sometimes it is like nobody cares.

Like I said, I have had to numb out my feelings this week, because so many bad things happen, and we sure dont need any more of it.

I dunno what you mean by this last paragraph, tell the truth and stuff.

I am just trying to limit this hurt at a bad time, and that is maybe not so bad,

Peace,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#22826 - 07/29/05 10:20 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
I do not mean to be callous, however ...
I just want to point out that everyone here is a survivor, survivors have hope, they are alive. It takes courage to forge ahead, battle our demons and wake up the next morning to fight some more. Suicide is very permanent, very without hope. In no way do I want to see those who choose suicide be glorified or martyrized. That would minimize those survivors who fight on. It would also minimize the heroics of those survivors like Jake who battled against poor health and disease and continued to participate and help their brothers here at the forum right till the very end. Suicide is not an option, certainly not an honorable or survivors option.
To me, the word survivor and suicide in the same sentence is an oxymoron. Sadly, a person who chooses suicide is not a survivor. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#22827 - 07/30/05 12:40 AM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Wow, I've been out for a couple of hours and this has created some very interesting thoughts in no time at all.

A couple of points, please don't forget that the sad loss of Jake was not due to suicide, and Medic's post was questioned and he replied positively.

On a completely personal note, suicide is something I tried many years ago. It was half hearted but an attempt none the less.
It's also something that affects me deeply, I have lost my best friend who was abused with me at school to suicide, and two other friends. Although I'm not altogether certain about their reasons.
My brother also attempted suicide and damn nearly succeeded, due to depression and job related stress.
The scariest thing I have ever heard in my life was my brother telling me that he decided to do it about three days before his attempt, and those three days were the calmest and most peaceful he's ever experienced.

That tells me that people are capable of suicide without showing signs, maybe that's what Medic did?
OK, not everyone who goes this way will behave in this manner, but I think many do.
Which makes any Moderators position impossible.
That's just my opinion and not a get out clause, but I feel that if we are to have a moderated site then we also have to accept that there is only so much we can expect of the volunteers.

In practical terms all we can do is pass the issue on to people who specialise, if you break a leg you don't see a brain surgeon do you?

That also lays a big responsibility on the users of sites such as this, and accepting personal responsibility is a very important part of our recoveries.
But where is the line between a desperate person who doesn't know where to turn and someone who threatens in anger?
That's the difficult position we face.

So although I am very angry and upset at Scott's suicide, I also know that we were powerless to prevent it happening, and that given the small suspicion that suicide was a prominent thought a Mod questioned him and received a positive and reassuring reply.

I agree that the suicide warning should be made more prominent, and I'll push for that.

It's rare that I would disagree with Ste, he's someone who's support of others and self awareness I admire here, but I do think that suicide is something that affects survivors deeply, so we do need to be open about it.
I also think it's something that we can prevent through discussion, suicide is a closed and personal affair. It's something we arrive at in desperation after periods of internal suffering, so opening up that suffering and talking about the fears and thoughts of suicide can only bring positive rewards in my opinion.
Yes it's triggering, and a trigger warning is something I forgot at the head of this topic, but can we recover without facing some of our dreaded triggers head on? I don't thinks so, however painful that is.
I know how much you care Ste, and I'm not dismissing your opinion. But perhaps, like myself, suicide is something that isn't 'here and now' for us so there might be a tendency to avoid it?
Suicide is a recovery issue for many people, especially when it's happening 'now'.

Andrew, I don't think you're callous at all, it is permanent and without hope. My friend Mick is a testament to that.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#22828 - 07/30/05 01:12 AM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Dave, when I try to do this as child, I then thot, hey you will be out of the hurt, you will be free.

Free of all this crap, and not knowing who you really are, some guys here are real good friends, like I never could get to know in my my whole life, and the women are so cool too.

I miss so much my friends who are not here, and I grieve for their loss, but sometimes life is too hard to bear, and there is no use carrying on.

I suppose it is like, nobody loves you, and nobody cares, and there is nobody to support you when you need it so much.

I am not typing so well tonite,

Peace to all,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#22829 - 07/30/05 01:44 AM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5778
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Folks:
This series of posts are illuminating and helpful. I think, as the board member in charge of the mods, we cannot be all things to all people, especially when it comes to suicidal thoughts or threats. Sometimes people are totally at wit's end and desperate, other times they may be manipulative. Even the couple of trained professional mods (me and Scotty/Todd) are not really trained in dealing with those who are suicidal.

That's why we post suicide prevention phone numbers.

We also realize that posting suicidal thoughts here is very triggering to many who have felt suicidal. We just can't intervene here with the manpower we have and the effect public posting can have on others.

I don't think we can come up with a suicidal thoughts forum like we have with certain other issues like gay forum, at risk or others that have been put up by "popular request".

We rely on the good will of other posters to be supportive or help the poster out with useful experiences or suggestions. And all I'm talking about here is the discussion forum.

Lord help Thad with his work on the chat room where anything can come up in live time and once it's posted, there is no pull back.

We'll listen to your thoughts and feelings and suggestions. But also recognize that the mods are primarily survivors who have gotten to a good place in their recovery and can't be all things to all people.

Ken


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#22830 - 07/30/05 03:28 AM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
ak Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
I will speak here, and I will speak strongly. If it is to strong, I believe someone will do something with this post.

This angers me. It say here, do not threaten suicide. No, it do not say do not discuss it, and I know that is different. But to think that most of people here would not be upset even by discussion of it, I think that is silly.

Jasper50, when someone say that there is been things that have happened here you do not know of, please respect that. Because there is things you do not know of that have happen here before, and it affect a lot of people. It affect their trust, their emotion, their ability to be here and to use here for help, and it was NOT their fault, but fault of others. I was one affected greatly by something that happen here you do not know about, and that you do not seem to care of what Ste is saying, that I feel is also to disrespect me and what these events cause in me for issues.

And Leosha, he talk of a person who implied threat of suicide, greatly, one night on member forum. I was the member that try to reach out many times to that person, responding and PMing and even offering my messenger name. I know of who the moderator involved was, and he was trying very hard also. I can not speak for him. But that situation was very uncomfortable and triggering for me. I felt I was kept hostage by this person, I was afraid very much to say the 'wrong' thing, and I am trying to deal with this person in different language. It was truly a frightening thing to me, and upset me for even weeks after, to worry if this person is alive or not. He have posted here since. I am glad of that. But I fear seeing such a post from him again. Or from anyone.

I lose a friend of suicide when I was 13. I almost lose one of my best friends to it almost 2 years ago. And I lose a friend I have known since I am four or five years old to it earlier this week. This is hard, very hard thing to think on or speak on. Perhaps for some people, to speak of it makes them safer. But, perhaps also for some people, it doesn't. I do not want ever to feel responsible for some such thing. It is to much I carry already. I will not carry that.

Andrei


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#22831 - 07/30/05 03:54 AM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
ak Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
Never mind. Already I say to much. But will leave that one.


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#22833 - 07/30/05 11:30 AM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Who will be next? Thanks Androsh, as ever you speak from a wise mind and I am so grateful to you and Leosha,

Peace to you both,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#22834 - 07/30/05 04:08 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
dwf Offline
Moderator/BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 1223
Loc: Austin, Texas USA
Well, here's my deux centimes worth (that's less than two cents, by the way, much less!).

The topic that is not allowed here is the THREAT of suicide.

I have mentioned suicidal thoughts, feelings, ideas about being dead etc. many, many times in my posts. I do this because it is one part of the journey of recovery from sexual abuse that I have undertaken.

However, I am very careful to add that I am not THREATENING suicide or self-harm and usually I will specifically say, "I have no intention of self-harm." or something along those lines.

THREATENING other people on this Discussion Board is definitely not allowed, in any form at all.

So it is very logical that THREATENING suicide is most specifially prohibited.

Do you like being THREATENED? I certainly don't.

It pisses me off. It makes me resentful. I can become angry. I can become fearful.

THREATENING self-harm is a very passive/aggressive way of THREATENING others. We are being THREATENED with the self-harm, self-destruction, disappearance of the other person.

So for me, the topic as far as this Discussion Board is concerned, is very simple. We can discuss suicide as much as we want, as long as we make very sure that we let everyone know that we are not THREATENING suicide.

THREATENING anyone about anything is absolutely prohibited; THREATENING suicide is specifically absolutely forbidden.

THREATENING suicide is an act of aggression towards others that masquerades as a will to self-harm.

THREATENING suicide is about seeking to frighten, anger, hurt, provoke, incite and disturb others.

There is no place for THREATS of any kind on this Discussion Board.

So, that's my take on the subject.

Don't THREATEN me with your own death. Don't THREATEN me at all. I don't like it, I will not tolerate it, especially not here.

The topic of suicide may well be complex and worth studying and discussing in general terms.

But the THREATENING of suicide, whether explicitly or by inference, is an act of aggressivity directed at others seeking their harm.

This is not the place for that.

Removing that weapon, THREATS, from the possible choices one can make in discussions on this forum makes it safe for all of us from the misguided, delusional, irrational aggressions of others.

Go somewhere else with it. Not here.

Thanks,

Regards,

_________________________
"Poke salad Annie, 'gators got you granny
Everybody said it was a shame
'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang"

-Tony Joe White

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#22835 - 07/30/05 04:36 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Brothers,

I feel like Dave. I was away from this thread for awhile and it has grown a lot. I really value everything that has been said, and I respect all of you so much for keeping such an emotional issue on an even keel.

I just have a few points to add to what I said previously, some by way of clarification:

  • Let us be clear that the loss of Scott is the fault of no one here. Not the Mods, not his friends (of whom I was one), not anyone who saw significant posts of his. As several have said, this is not a crisis center and we are not major crisis counsellors.
  • It is not our task to prevent suicide. This is a site where survivors can meet to share issues and help each other heal.
  • When I posted to suggest that a discussion of the topic might be a good idea, what I had specifically in mind was a review of the suicide notice. One point that strikes me as very good is the idea of making it more prominent(in red, top of page, whatever). Another might be to make clearer the distinction between discussion of suicide and threatening suicide. I absolutely share dwf's thoughts on this.

One thing I don't see yet is a discussion of how many guys even think of doing this, and why? I would like to see this, simply because it would help me to understand the problem better.

I thought of this frequently as a teenager, and I had it figured how I would do it. I think I didn't act on the idea simply because my self-esteem and sense of personhood were so devastated then that I didn't even care about that. Later the issue didn't come up, simply because I was in such deep denial. More recently, I have thought about it sometimes, but not seriously (or so I would like to think). I think of it at times when I feel rejected and the object of anger on the part of those very close to me, and I think I feel that way because I feel so alone. My guess is that the feeling of being all alone is crucial, but that's just a guess.

As to what I can do personally, I have posted on this on the "Call to arms" forum and will not repeat what I said there.

Love to all,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#22836 - 07/30/05 10:22 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
Quote:
Originally posted by Jasper50:

Is it acceptable to threaten suicide? No. You're right. We can't handle that kind of thing. But to ignore a suicidal threat (either implied or explicit) is to basically tell the person, "Go ahead!" Threats, hints, allusions to suicide SHOULD NEVER BE IGNORED. NEVER!
Respectfully, I think this is dangerous speaking. Because there are maybe 2 or 3 people here (ok, maybe there are more trained therapy professionals here then that, I just am not aware of that) who have the experience and training to 'handle' such a thing. To say this, it is to put a lot of pressure on many members who are themselves emotionally labile, distressed, healing, and NOT trained to deal with either a truly suicidal person or a manipulative person with attention-seeking behaviors. It seems that this statement, and I speak only as what it says to me, is to put pressure and obligation to every member here to 'save' everyone else here. Truly, we only can save ourself. I have two very close friends, two people who are truly like brothers, who post here. I know them better then I know anyone else here, and I know them better then anyone else here knows them. And still, I can not save either of them.

I think encouraging more positive sharing here can be something good. To provide more hope to those members who are perhaps to new to have it themselves, and to encourage those who 'lurk' here, unsure of whether to join, by showing that YES, we DO heal and get better of this, there IS the light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe we should encourage more sharing of positive events.

I realize that just to speak of suicide does not create suicide. But also, to speak of support, encouragement, and to respond to someone who appears suicidal does not PREVENT suicide. No one can do that but the person's own hand. We have the resource numbers posted here, and I think that is positive. But please do not put the responsibility or obligation for the life of another member here on each of us. Let us instead celebrate strength and better choices, and lead by example to those who may be considering it. And then, if they still make the choice, it is THEIR choice.

Leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#22837 - 07/30/05 10:58 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
This topic is triggering, and I dont know where it should be.

Been there, tried to do it, got mad cos I didnt, thinking WTF, why NOT?

It is like we are discussing something like how the football score is, but the truth is, I got dealt a sh*tty hand, and I always live with that, and so many others too.

Yeah, I tried it twice, and I nearly got there at 11yo and then again later, and believe me, it is not so easy to be in that space, cos it shaped me for the future.

When life seems so impossible to live in, who are we to say that somebody else took the wrong choice?

Who are we to deem them weak or weaker than ourselves knowing that they survived?

How can we perceive anothers' life and hurt, we cant, nobody can.

We can only make of life as we can, even with these past experiences that trigger us so much.

I think we all gain an inner strength from our past, and it can be either positive or negative in our life path.

Who can pacify the little boy who cries day and night, and feels worthless and a stranger to his family and friends?

How do you tell him that his emotions were never his, and not his fault. How do you tell him that ppl care, and even if you do tell hime, can he listen?

No he cant, because nobody ever did,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#22838 - 07/30/05 11:03 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
There is a world of difference between someone saying "I feel so depressed, the only way out I can see is suicide" and "you've upset me so much that I'm going to kill myself"

As Danny, AK and Leosha have said, and others, the second statement is a very aggressive threat, and it does affect very strongly those people who are there at the time and then spend many hours furiously sending PMs to help that person, especially if they are feeling fragile themselves.

It does happen, I know it does. And the people who rally round and help do so because they care, but the person who feels that someone elses actions have upset them so much they feel suicidal should really use one of the organisations that are linked from MS. That's where the RIGHT help will be found.

The first statement is one we can help with to a degree, but again I would say go to the right people as well.
But the CAUSES, if they lie within CSA, we can help with. And I think it's better to open up and say that you are having suicidal thoughts than say nothing at all.

Suicide is the ultimate selfish act, the people left behind that love and care for that person become victims instantly. We know what that's like, it ain't any fun at all.
And neither is it any fun to be on the receiving end of any threats, as AK points out so well.

I know that the whole subject of suicide is never going to be easy for us to talk about or deal with, it affects us way to deeply for us to be detached enough for a completely rational discussion.
But the nearer we get to that rational discussion the better it is for everyone.

Ste
"Dave, when I try to do this as child, I then thot, hey you will be out of the hurt, you will be free."

This is where MS can help, many of us have been through these thoughts, so we can share our experiences. We can help someone through their 'hurt' to a better freedom, no - not a better freedom, the ONLY freedom.
We do that by sharing our support, showing that we genuinly care about our friends here.
The support and care we have on offer is for CSA and it's effects, not suicide. But if that's the root of the suicidal thoughts then we're a long way into helping that person.

I hope you're having a better night tonight Ste.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#22839 - 07/31/05 01:57 AM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
I've always been more frightened of dying before I achieved anything, than I have been afraid of actually dying. Now I believe that I have actually achieved something with my life (I think)I don't tend to have such black thoughts.

Staying Alive is the Answer.

I can't say that I never thought about doing it because I have - I won't!!!!! I've got a chance to live now & I'm going to take that chance!

*I remember one particular instance, just a few months after first coming here - I was in a right state & went for a drive in my car. I just drove around and ended up at a place called Winston. I remembered being there when I was about 18. I parked my car & went for a walk & ended up stood on a bridge some height above the river (the natural route to the other side of the river).

When I looked down, I thought about jumping, but realised that the river was quite deep & slow moving, so I wouldn''t really be hurt by the impact & wouldn't even get swept away. I also realised that I was a far better swimmer than that river could deal with at the time - it was at this point that I actually smiled & realised that I just had to get on with living. Took some time after that to get back to 'normal' (whatever that is).... I'm still here & you're not getting rid of me yet!

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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