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#22835 - 07/30/05 04:36 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Brothers,

I feel like Dave. I was away from this thread for awhile and it has grown a lot. I really value everything that has been said, and I respect all of you so much for keeping such an emotional issue on an even keel.

I just have a few points to add to what I said previously, some by way of clarification:

  • Let us be clear that the loss of Scott is the fault of no one here. Not the Mods, not his friends (of whom I was one), not anyone who saw significant posts of his. As several have said, this is not a crisis center and we are not major crisis counsellors.
  • It is not our task to prevent suicide. This is a site where survivors can meet to share issues and help each other heal.
  • When I posted to suggest that a discussion of the topic might be a good idea, what I had specifically in mind was a review of the suicide notice. One point that strikes me as very good is the idea of making it more prominent(in red, top of page, whatever). Another might be to make clearer the distinction between discussion of suicide and threatening suicide. I absolutely share dwf's thoughts on this.

One thing I don't see yet is a discussion of how many guys even think of doing this, and why? I would like to see this, simply because it would help me to understand the problem better.

I thought of this frequently as a teenager, and I had it figured how I would do it. I think I didn't act on the idea simply because my self-esteem and sense of personhood were so devastated then that I didn't even care about that. Later the issue didn't come up, simply because I was in such deep denial. More recently, I have thought about it sometimes, but not seriously (or so I would like to think). I think of it at times when I feel rejected and the object of anger on the part of those very close to me, and I think I feel that way because I feel so alone. My guess is that the feeling of being all alone is crucial, but that's just a guess.

As to what I can do personally, I have posted on this on the "Call to arms" forum and will not repeat what I said there.

Love to all,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#22836 - 07/30/05 10:22 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
Quote:
Originally posted by Jasper50:

Is it acceptable to threaten suicide? No. You're right. We can't handle that kind of thing. But to ignore a suicidal threat (either implied or explicit) is to basically tell the person, "Go ahead!" Threats, hints, allusions to suicide SHOULD NEVER BE IGNORED. NEVER!
Respectfully, I think this is dangerous speaking. Because there are maybe 2 or 3 people here (ok, maybe there are more trained therapy professionals here then that, I just am not aware of that) who have the experience and training to 'handle' such a thing. To say this, it is to put a lot of pressure on many members who are themselves emotionally labile, distressed, healing, and NOT trained to deal with either a truly suicidal person or a manipulative person with attention-seeking behaviors. It seems that this statement, and I speak only as what it says to me, is to put pressure and obligation to every member here to 'save' everyone else here. Truly, we only can save ourself. I have two very close friends, two people who are truly like brothers, who post here. I know them better then I know anyone else here, and I know them better then anyone else here knows them. And still, I can not save either of them.

I think encouraging more positive sharing here can be something good. To provide more hope to those members who are perhaps to new to have it themselves, and to encourage those who 'lurk' here, unsure of whether to join, by showing that YES, we DO heal and get better of this, there IS the light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe we should encourage more sharing of positive events.

I realize that just to speak of suicide does not create suicide. But also, to speak of support, encouragement, and to respond to someone who appears suicidal does not PREVENT suicide. No one can do that but the person's own hand. We have the resource numbers posted here, and I think that is positive. But please do not put the responsibility or obligation for the life of another member here on each of us. Let us instead celebrate strength and better choices, and lead by example to those who may be considering it. And then, if they still make the choice, it is THEIR choice.

Leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#22837 - 07/30/05 10:58 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
This topic is triggering, and I dont know where it should be.

Been there, tried to do it, got mad cos I didnt, thinking WTF, why NOT?

It is like we are discussing something like how the football score is, but the truth is, I got dealt a sh*tty hand, and I always live with that, and so many others too.

Yeah, I tried it twice, and I nearly got there at 11yo and then again later, and believe me, it is not so easy to be in that space, cos it shaped me for the future.

When life seems so impossible to live in, who are we to say that somebody else took the wrong choice?

Who are we to deem them weak or weaker than ourselves knowing that they survived?

How can we perceive anothers' life and hurt, we cant, nobody can.

We can only make of life as we can, even with these past experiences that trigger us so much.

I think we all gain an inner strength from our past, and it can be either positive or negative in our life path.

Who can pacify the little boy who cries day and night, and feels worthless and a stranger to his family and friends?

How do you tell him that his emotions were never his, and not his fault. How do you tell him that ppl care, and even if you do tell hime, can he listen?

No he cant, because nobody ever did,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#22838 - 07/30/05 11:03 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
There is a world of difference between someone saying "I feel so depressed, the only way out I can see is suicide" and "you've upset me so much that I'm going to kill myself"

As Danny, AK and Leosha have said, and others, the second statement is a very aggressive threat, and it does affect very strongly those people who are there at the time and then spend many hours furiously sending PMs to help that person, especially if they are feeling fragile themselves.

It does happen, I know it does. And the people who rally round and help do so because they care, but the person who feels that someone elses actions have upset them so much they feel suicidal should really use one of the organisations that are linked from MS. That's where the RIGHT help will be found.

The first statement is one we can help with to a degree, but again I would say go to the right people as well.
But the CAUSES, if they lie within CSA, we can help with. And I think it's better to open up and say that you are having suicidal thoughts than say nothing at all.

Suicide is the ultimate selfish act, the people left behind that love and care for that person become victims instantly. We know what that's like, it ain't any fun at all.
And neither is it any fun to be on the receiving end of any threats, as AK points out so well.

I know that the whole subject of suicide is never going to be easy for us to talk about or deal with, it affects us way to deeply for us to be detached enough for a completely rational discussion.
But the nearer we get to that rational discussion the better it is for everyone.

Ste
"Dave, when I try to do this as child, I then thot, hey you will be out of the hurt, you will be free."

This is where MS can help, many of us have been through these thoughts, so we can share our experiences. We can help someone through their 'hurt' to a better freedom, no - not a better freedom, the ONLY freedom.
We do that by sharing our support, showing that we genuinly care about our friends here.
The support and care we have on offer is for CSA and it's effects, not suicide. But if that's the root of the suicidal thoughts then we're a long way into helping that person.

I hope you're having a better night tonight Ste.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#22839 - 07/31/05 01:57 AM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
I've always been more frightened of dying before I achieved anything, than I have been afraid of actually dying. Now I believe that I have actually achieved something with my life (I think)I don't tend to have such black thoughts.

Staying Alive is the Answer.

I can't say that I never thought about doing it because I have - I won't!!!!! I've got a chance to live now & I'm going to take that chance!

*I remember one particular instance, just a few months after first coming here - I was in a right state & went for a drive in my car. I just drove around and ended up at a place called Winston. I remembered being there when I was about 18. I parked my car & went for a walk & ended up stood on a bridge some height above the river (the natural route to the other side of the river).

When I looked down, I thought about jumping, but realised that the river was quite deep & slow moving, so I wouldn''t really be hurt by the impact & wouldn't even get swept away. I also realised that I was a far better swimmer than that river could deal with at the time - it was at this point that I actually smiled & realised that I just had to get on with living. Took some time after that to get back to 'normal' (whatever that is).... I'm still here & you're not getting rid of me yet!

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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