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#22823 - 07/29/05 10:07 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
For someone feeling suicidal, this is not the place to be. MS forum is not equipped to help someone in acute crisis. Rather than logging on to MS discussion forum, they need to be calling a crisis line. I think the policy we currently have in place is adequate. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#22825 - 07/29/05 10:14 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Jasper, I dont carry the weight of the World on my shoulders, and if I do, then is that right?

I do not post my hurt here, cos others sometimes take it the wrong way, and I cannot risk hurting them, so it feels safer to do it in members.

People tell me things in confidence, because I have experience in dealing with issues, and even if it hurts me, I look at it, because I was trained in that area.

If I post feeling bad in this forum, then I get so many concerned PMs, and these are great ppl who really care, but I dont mind taking on the hurt of others cos it is just me, and they know, I am totally confidential with what they say.

I was hurting myself a couple of weeks ago, and these guys, and the women really cared for me, so I find so many good ppl here, and I have been here a long time, and I see the things that can go on.

I really do not know where this topic is going, and I dont want see it turn out ugly, but yes, it is my duty to help, it always was, since I was a lil kid.

Follow my posts, and yeah, we can all feel all alone and nobody to be there, like where do we go and stuff, and sometimes it is like nobody cares.

Like I said, I have had to numb out my feelings this week, because so many bad things happen, and we sure dont need any more of it.

I dunno what you mean by this last paragraph, tell the truth and stuff.

I am just trying to limit this hurt at a bad time, and that is maybe not so bad,

Peace,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#22826 - 07/29/05 10:20 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
I do not mean to be callous, however ...
I just want to point out that everyone here is a survivor, survivors have hope, they are alive. It takes courage to forge ahead, battle our demons and wake up the next morning to fight some more. Suicide is very permanent, very without hope. In no way do I want to see those who choose suicide be glorified or martyrized. That would minimize those survivors who fight on. It would also minimize the heroics of those survivors like Jake who battled against poor health and disease and continued to participate and help their brothers here at the forum right till the very end. Suicide is not an option, certainly not an honorable or survivors option.
To me, the word survivor and suicide in the same sentence is an oxymoron. Sadly, a person who chooses suicide is not a survivor. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#22827 - 07/30/05 12:40 AM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Wow, I've been out for a couple of hours and this has created some very interesting thoughts in no time at all.

A couple of points, please don't forget that the sad loss of Jake was not due to suicide, and Medic's post was questioned and he replied positively.

On a completely personal note, suicide is something I tried many years ago. It was half hearted but an attempt none the less.
It's also something that affects me deeply, I have lost my best friend who was abused with me at school to suicide, and two other friends. Although I'm not altogether certain about their reasons.
My brother also attempted suicide and damn nearly succeeded, due to depression and job related stress.
The scariest thing I have ever heard in my life was my brother telling me that he decided to do it about three days before his attempt, and those three days were the calmest and most peaceful he's ever experienced.

That tells me that people are capable of suicide without showing signs, maybe that's what Medic did?
OK, not everyone who goes this way will behave in this manner, but I think many do.
Which makes any Moderators position impossible.
That's just my opinion and not a get out clause, but I feel that if we are to have a moderated site then we also have to accept that there is only so much we can expect of the volunteers.

In practical terms all we can do is pass the issue on to people who specialise, if you break a leg you don't see a brain surgeon do you?

That also lays a big responsibility on the users of sites such as this, and accepting personal responsibility is a very important part of our recoveries.
But where is the line between a desperate person who doesn't know where to turn and someone who threatens in anger?
That's the difficult position we face.

So although I am very angry and upset at Scott's suicide, I also know that we were powerless to prevent it happening, and that given the small suspicion that suicide was a prominent thought a Mod questioned him and received a positive and reassuring reply.

I agree that the suicide warning should be made more prominent, and I'll push for that.

It's rare that I would disagree with Ste, he's someone who's support of others and self awareness I admire here, but I do think that suicide is something that affects survivors deeply, so we do need to be open about it.
I also think it's something that we can prevent through discussion, suicide is a closed and personal affair. It's something we arrive at in desperation after periods of internal suffering, so opening up that suffering and talking about the fears and thoughts of suicide can only bring positive rewards in my opinion.
Yes it's triggering, and a trigger warning is something I forgot at the head of this topic, but can we recover without facing some of our dreaded triggers head on? I don't thinks so, however painful that is.
I know how much you care Ste, and I'm not dismissing your opinion. But perhaps, like myself, suicide is something that isn't 'here and now' for us so there might be a tendency to avoid it?
Suicide is a recovery issue for many people, especially when it's happening 'now'.

Andrew, I don't think you're callous at all, it is permanent and without hope. My friend Mick is a testament to that.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#22828 - 07/30/05 01:12 AM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Dave, when I try to do this as child, I then thot, hey you will be out of the hurt, you will be free.

Free of all this crap, and not knowing who you really are, some guys here are real good friends, like I never could get to know in my my whole life, and the women are so cool too.

I miss so much my friends who are not here, and I grieve for their loss, but sometimes life is too hard to bear, and there is no use carrying on.

I suppose it is like, nobody loves you, and nobody cares, and there is nobody to support you when you need it so much.

I am not typing so well tonite,

Peace to all,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#22829 - 07/30/05 01:44 AM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5779
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Folks:
This series of posts are illuminating and helpful. I think, as the board member in charge of the mods, we cannot be all things to all people, especially when it comes to suicidal thoughts or threats. Sometimes people are totally at wit's end and desperate, other times they may be manipulative. Even the couple of trained professional mods (me and Scotty/Todd) are not really trained in dealing with those who are suicidal.

That's why we post suicide prevention phone numbers.

We also realize that posting suicidal thoughts here is very triggering to many who have felt suicidal. We just can't intervene here with the manpower we have and the effect public posting can have on others.

I don't think we can come up with a suicidal thoughts forum like we have with certain other issues like gay forum, at risk or others that have been put up by "popular request".

We rely on the good will of other posters to be supportive or help the poster out with useful experiences or suggestions. And all I'm talking about here is the discussion forum.

Lord help Thad with his work on the chat room where anything can come up in live time and once it's posted, there is no pull back.

We'll listen to your thoughts and feelings and suggestions. But also recognize that the mods are primarily survivors who have gotten to a good place in their recovery and can't be all things to all people.

Ken


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#22830 - 07/30/05 03:28 AM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
ak Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
I will speak here, and I will speak strongly. If it is to strong, I believe someone will do something with this post.

This angers me. It say here, do not threaten suicide. No, it do not say do not discuss it, and I know that is different. But to think that most of people here would not be upset even by discussion of it, I think that is silly.

Jasper50, when someone say that there is been things that have happened here you do not know of, please respect that. Because there is things you do not know of that have happen here before, and it affect a lot of people. It affect their trust, their emotion, their ability to be here and to use here for help, and it was NOT their fault, but fault of others. I was one affected greatly by something that happen here you do not know about, and that you do not seem to care of what Ste is saying, that I feel is also to disrespect me and what these events cause in me for issues.

And Leosha, he talk of a person who implied threat of suicide, greatly, one night on member forum. I was the member that try to reach out many times to that person, responding and PMing and even offering my messenger name. I know of who the moderator involved was, and he was trying very hard also. I can not speak for him. But that situation was very uncomfortable and triggering for me. I felt I was kept hostage by this person, I was afraid very much to say the 'wrong' thing, and I am trying to deal with this person in different language. It was truly a frightening thing to me, and upset me for even weeks after, to worry if this person is alive or not. He have posted here since. I am glad of that. But I fear seeing such a post from him again. Or from anyone.

I lose a friend of suicide when I was 13. I almost lose one of my best friends to it almost 2 years ago. And I lose a friend I have known since I am four or five years old to it earlier this week. This is hard, very hard thing to think on or speak on. Perhaps for some people, to speak of it makes them safer. But, perhaps also for some people, it doesn't. I do not want ever to feel responsible for some such thing. It is to much I carry already. I will not carry that.

Andrei


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#22831 - 07/30/05 03:54 AM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
ak Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
Never mind. Already I say to much. But will leave that one.


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#22833 - 07/30/05 11:30 AM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Who will be next? Thanks Androsh, as ever you speak from a wise mind and I am so grateful to you and Leosha,

Peace to you both,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#22834 - 07/30/05 04:08 PM Re: Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
dwf Offline
Moderator/BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 1223
Loc: Austin, Texas USA
Well, here's my deux centimes worth (that's less than two cents, by the way, much less!).

The topic that is not allowed here is the THREAT of suicide.

I have mentioned suicidal thoughts, feelings, ideas about being dead etc. many, many times in my posts. I do this because it is one part of the journey of recovery from sexual abuse that I have undertaken.

However, I am very careful to add that I am not THREATENING suicide or self-harm and usually I will specifically say, "I have no intention of self-harm." or something along those lines.

THREATENING other people on this Discussion Board is definitely not allowed, in any form at all.

So it is very logical that THREATENING suicide is most specifially prohibited.

Do you like being THREATENED? I certainly don't.

It pisses me off. It makes me resentful. I can become angry. I can become fearful.

THREATENING self-harm is a very passive/aggressive way of THREATENING others. We are being THREATENED with the self-harm, self-destruction, disappearance of the other person.

So for me, the topic as far as this Discussion Board is concerned, is very simple. We can discuss suicide as much as we want, as long as we make very sure that we let everyone know that we are not THREATENING suicide.

THREATENING anyone about anything is absolutely prohibited; THREATENING suicide is specifically absolutely forbidden.

THREATENING suicide is an act of aggression towards others that masquerades as a will to self-harm.

THREATENING suicide is about seeking to frighten, anger, hurt, provoke, incite and disturb others.

There is no place for THREATS of any kind on this Discussion Board.

So, that's my take on the subject.

Don't THREATEN me with your own death. Don't THREATEN me at all. I don't like it, I will not tolerate it, especially not here.

The topic of suicide may well be complex and worth studying and discussing in general terms.

But the THREATENING of suicide, whether explicitly or by inference, is an act of aggressivity directed at others seeking their harm.

This is not the place for that.

Removing that weapon, THREATS, from the possible choices one can make in discussions on this forum makes it safe for all of us from the misguided, delusional, irrational aggressions of others.

Go somewhere else with it. Not here.

Thanks,

Regards,

_________________________
"Poke salad Annie, 'gators got you granny
Everybody said it was a shame
'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang"

-Tony Joe White

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