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#223316 - 05/08/08 09:17 PM Re: Have I said something stupid? [Re: arronb]
Trish4850 Offline
BoD Liaison Emeritus
MaleSurvivor<

Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 3280
Loc: New Jersey
DE,

People tell you stuff because you listen and you care. Happens to my b/f all the time. People just like him, but you know what? He has no clue why! That is exasperating! I've told him, I've said it on these boards and now I'll tell you. Use other people, good people, people you trust as a mirror for now, 'cause your mirror lies to you!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are a good person. You are worthy of love and respect and you will have those things if you let them in. Don't reach for what may be unattainable things. Lunch at a cafe doesn't make a love match, but trust and friendship do. Try to chip away at your fear in little pieces, not the whole thing in one fell swoop.

What I'm reading is that you're a very deep man, DH, with lots to offer, but you're also a guy who is unwilling or unable at the moment to receive unless it's the whole shabang yet that scares the crud out of you. Your not seeing the little details that make up the portrait and I think its likely that your idea of love is the kind of romantic movie love that is only seen in the movies, at least the long, sustainable kind. Falling in love is easy, staying in love is hard. If you've got the staying kind it's because of alot of hard work by both people, it never "just happens" and if you expect that, you're setting yourself up to fail. Don't you think that's horribly unfair to you?

If you even think you have feelings for C beyond friendship, why not ask her on a date? Officially, a real honest to goodness date where she wears a dress and you wear a sport coat. That's what people do when they want to get to know someone better or in your case, in a different light. A yes from her would be awesome, but no won't kill you, I swear - double pinky swear!

ROCK ON..........Trish

PS: You don't need to tell her anything about the abuse until you're ready, but when and if you do, it won't hurt her, but she will hurt for you. There's no getting around that; it's that love and respect thing I talked about you being entitled to, even when the love is the love of a friend.


_________________________
If you fall down 10 times, Stand up 11.

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#223353 - 05/09/08 01:19 AM Re: Have I said something stupid? [Re: Trish4850]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1934
Loc: durham, north england
Thanks.

It's obvious from what people are saying I need to try and do something or other, sinse your probably right in that I do feel something more than friendship for C.

when this has happened in the passed, I've done one of two things either A, I've squashed my own feelins because the person in question already had a bf (the majority of occasions), or B, as happened on three occasions,the last one being in november with ****, blurting out how I feel, ---- and usually crying.

I think larry said something about guys who'd been abused being fine with friendships with girls, ---- but as soon as anything more coming up, ---- going into total panic mode.that really describes me.

Perhaps the major problem is that your supposed to learn about this stuff and experiment as a teenager, ----- but that was the point I was being abused, ---- maybe I'm stil about twelve in this area.

I can't even say what I want to have happen. A long term relationship? maybe, I can't look that far ahead, ----- and I certainly don't want children anyway, a physical relationship? hell no! that hole area is terrifying.

but just being close to someone in a way more than friends.

just being really relaxed, snuggling up and watching films, and knowing that the other person cared about me, ----- that would be enough!

Just something more than what's happened already, that would be enough.

Is that too much to ask?

I'm just aware that whenever I see my friends being casually affectionate with their partners, ----- miner canoodling, that sort of trust, that sort of warmth, ----- that's what I want!

I've only ever seen it betwene people who are together.

I have one female friend I've almost but not quite come close to that sort of thing with, ----- she's the only girl I can comfortably accept a hug from and she's one of the people I've told about my abuse.

We met in my first year, and ever sinse we had the "Well I like you but not in that way" conversation, ----- a feeling that was very mutual on both sides, I've felt really safe with her, even to the point of physical affection, and as I said, she's one of the people I've told about my abuse and one of the people I've asked for advice.

The thing is as I said, her being incredibly blunt spoken, we were able to both say "well I like you but not in that way" which made things alright for me, ----- but she's quite unusual in that respect, and I've never had any other female friend say something similar to me.

my friend is now on Bf number three and getting married quite soon, ----- which hurts, sinse back in our first year one of the thing we did was discuss the act that neither of us had a partner and we both wanted one, but she ended up with the boy she liked, where as the girl i liked was one of the three s where my feelings ran away from me and I ended up crying.

Everytime I even considder saying something to someone about how i feel, I start panicking, ---- even just a hint, or a complement on her appearence. Yet perhaps I have to in a controled way before my head gets to exploding point again.

I'm really sorry for the cnfusion, the more I look into this the more confused I get.


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#223396 - 05/09/08 09:55 AM Re: Have I said something stupid? [Re: dark empathy]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
Originally Posted By: dark empathy
Perhaps the major problem is that your supposed to learn about this stuff and experiment as a teenager, ----- but that was the point I was being abused, ---- maybe I'm stil about twelve in this area


Luke it is funny you should say that. In one of your posts I was reading I was thinking "Geez what? are we in grade school again?". I didn't say it because I thought it was rude but since you said it I wanted to comment.

I think you are on to something there. You should talk to your T about this because when we are abused sometimes emotionally we do get stuck and sometimes mentally in the age where the abuse occurred. We can dissociate and sometimes actually speak in the language and voice we used at that age without realizing it. So yeah it is possible that emotionally when it comes to girls you are in that age mentally and emotionally and just need to see that and realize that these very stong negative feelings are coming from a frightened 12 yo.

Find a way to reassure that boy inside you that you will take care of him and keep him safe and he is not going to be hurt again. Perhaps you are trying to treat the adult in you and that is what is causing the confusion and lack of results in stabilizing you emotions here. It is the child inside you that gets frightened and starts crying when attampting to deal with this with a girl. He never developed the social skills for this.

I would suggest from reading your posts that you go back to that boy and start letting him learn about how to become friends with girls first with out the pressure of having to adulterize the relationship until he is capable of being comfortable around girls. I think that is where you are at. Girls getting close to you trigger the boy coming to your rescue and trying to protect you from being abused again. He is the one you need to talk to about how ok it is and he is the one you need to reassure. Let me know what you think of this. I know this is inner child stuff but I think this is a real possibility that you should discuss with your T.


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#223401 - 05/09/08 10:10 AM Re: Have I said something stupid? [Re: Freedom49]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2572
I agree with that "still being 12" idea as well, but not just about you. I feel that way too. Just recently I've found myself checking people out, all over the place. It was something I have never done in the past. Didn't see what the big deal was. That and quite a few others things just had me saying to my wife the other day that I actually feel like I'm growing up! I'm finding myself thinking and doing a lot of things that most kids do when their in those early teen years. So yeah, I'm probably stuck back there with ya!


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#223446 - 05/09/08 01:33 PM Re: Have I said something stupid? [Re: dark empathy]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
Dark empathy,
Coming in late with the woman's opinion...
It certainly sounds as though things are going very well with C. The best relationships start this way...slow. It sounds as though you both enjoy each other's company and are spending time together, talking, laughing, etc. These are all good things. You keep saying you are looking for something more...how much more? What will change for you if says out loud that she likes you? Have you thought about what you're ready to do next? Are you ready for a physical relationship right now?
I have to disagree with some of the guys' posts. (Sorry guys!) I don't think you should ask her where she wants this relationship to go. Not this soon. I mean, I'm pretty out-spoken, but I can't imagine myself "going first" with an answer to that one! She might be as uncertain as you are at the moment, and if she is, she'll be afraid of your response to her answer.
From what I can tell, you've done everything right so far. Communication is a huge thing. And you actually do know how, because that's what you've been doing. "Communication" is just a word. Try looking up the definition and picking out an alternate word for it that you find less intimidating. I actually do this all the time. If I'm asked to do something big that I'm not sure if I can do, I'll usually step back and ask myself, "What am I actually expected to do here?" Then, I break the 1 BIG thing into however many smaller things which are usually all things I can do. I've got him doing it now. It does work.
I will echo the "Give it time."
Always,
Liv


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#223450 - 05/09/08 02:18 PM Re: Have I said something stupid? [Re: Liv2124]
Marissa Offline


Registered: 05/06/08
Posts: 67
Dark Empathy,

I don't feel like I've been here long enough to offer any advice, but just want you to know I'm supporting you in this.

Marissa


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#223458 - 05/09/08 04:08 PM Re: Have I said something stupid? [Re: Marissa]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1934
Loc: durham, north england
Marissa, thank you!

roger, I'm really not happy with the inner child metaphore. probably because I am synaesthesic, I have these feelings sitting there in front of me where I can see them, ---- I can even tell you what colour they are. They are there now as I write this, like a cloud inthe sky which I can look at closer if I so desire, ---- though, ---- there are certainly occasions (sometimes when viewing it), i can quite literally be enveloped by it so that it colours everything I see.

while I can accept certainly that this came from my abuse, the hole metaphore of saying "the twelve year old boy inside me" reacting just seems nonsensical to me.

I'm really sorry if this seems harsh or unpleasant, it is just genuinely the way my mental land scape functions, I'm really sorry if it sounds bizarre, and I do appreciate the advice even if I can't quite make sense of it. I will discuss it with my T on Monday though.

the problem, ---- both with C, and with communication, is that over the last eight years, I have had absolutely loads of female friends who I've done exactly the same things with.

We've had long in depth conversations, we've laughed, we've been out together. It was a standing joke around my colidge choire that almost everyone, ---- about 8 people, male and female had at one time or another come round to my room for coffee and conversation.

Even with ****, we had a great time together, chatting as friends about everything from different countries perceptions of time, (**** is canadian), to the fact that whenever something is processed it gets worsed, so there must be some chemical element of processium which reacts with anything which goes through a major factory and increases the nastiness factor.

Even though I was totally in love with ****, we genuinely were friends, ---- heck, after she told me she already had a bf and I broke down completely, when i phoned the next morning to appologise and offered to never contact her again, she was nice enough to say she really wanted to stay friends, ---- we even have!

the thing is, with C, exactly the same thing happens. We're together, we talk about stuff, we have a laugh. But now I've realized that, ---- as I've realized before, I have other feelings towards C, there's nothing I can do to move things any more forward.

My parents, ---- and my friends are certain that some of my female friends have been interested in becoming closer to me (I just can't see that myself), but if so, ----- there's just no way i can imagine things progressing, and if anything did become so overt as to hint at something passed that blind spot, ---- or even come close to admitting interest, I'd panick.

the only point in a long evening with **** that I even approached the idea of my interest (until we got to the end of things), was when she was talking about being over weight, ---- which she is not! I told her she wasn't, and then started blushing, and literally stuttering. She asked me to go on, and after a few minutes I said she looked sort of well nice.

Yes, I know this is a really sterriotypically childish reaction, but while panicking it was all i could manage, ---- and just to confuse things even more she told me how sweet it was.

So, I'm really unsure on what I should do, sinse even if I have other feelings for C, I see no way of moving things forward, and I'm almost certain that the same things will happen. I'm really in a catch 22 where I need something from her, ---- but if she showed anything I'd either not notice or end up panicking.

As to what I want, that is indeed a good question Live and one I've been thinking about.

Just to begin with, what I want would just be closeness and sharing and to feel safe. I've seen a sort of affection, something my friends and their partners have, something I've only ever seen betwene people who are together. It's got a highly distinct pattern and I can't really articulate it. to an extent it's often expressed in miner physical affection, hand holding, maybe kissing or just being close together, ---- but that's jnot the point. It's a sort of closeness, a sort of mutual feeling for eachother, it's about beeing connected immotionally to another person in a more complicated way than in friendshipp. Could it result in a long term relationship? perhaps, sinse I know it's not perminant. could it lead to a full physical relationship, ---- possibly, though in my case I can't see that far ahead, just to get to the initial stage of closeness would be enough for me. Maybe this is what people do as teenagers, I don't know, but I know I've seen it, and I know I really want it, and I know that just being friends with someone isn't going to provide it for me.

About the give it time thing, as I said, my problem is I've been giving it time for eight years. Initially, I was hopeful of meeting the right person and things working out. Arfter my first year and my second really bad experience, that hope started to die until before I met ****, I was quite certain it was never going to happen, and started literally disparing, obviously there was just something wrong with me. People were nice enough to be friends, ---- but that was as far as they were willing to go.

Now, I've been looking at my abuse, trying to find connections and alter things that I thought were unalterable, and I so want to break that old pattern but I have no idea how.

Really thanks for all the help, advice and support, I can't say what it means to me.

Luke.


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#223489 - 05/09/08 07:17 PM Re: Have I said something stupid? [Re: dark empathy]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
Quote:
roger, I'm really not happy with the inner child metaphore. probably because I am synaesthesic, I have these feelings sitting there in front of me where I can see them, ---- I can even tell you what colour they are. They are there now as I write this, like a cloud inthe sky which I can look at closer if I so desire, ---- though, ---- there are certainly occasions (sometimes when viewing it), i can quite literally be enveloped by it so that it colours everything I see.

while I can accept certainly that this came from my abuse, the hole metaphore of saying "the twelve year old boy inside me" reacting just seems nonsensical to me.


Luke, I get all that. Would it be easier if I just said your acting like a 12 yo? Pubecent boys when they discover girls are both facinated and frightened. Facinated because the chemistry fuels the attraction and the desire and they want to be around them and talk to them and learn all about them.

Frightened because as they do this they begin to reailze and appreciate that because of this desire to be with a girl it now makes the boy VERY vulnerable emotionally to getting hurt by this wonderful creature. There is therefore a lot of angst associated with this awakening. I want her but I am afraid of her. I really like spending time with her and hate being away from her but I am scared of her. What if she doesn't like me? What if I tell her how I feel and she doesn't feel the same? What if I tell her I like her and she likes me but then she changes her mind and I am crushed? What if I change my mind and she is crushed?

I am telling you whether you agree with it or not, whether it is colored blue or pink whether it is synthetic, or synaesthesic, when that cloud envelopes you it is Luke the 12 yo who is making the decisions. It is a 12 boy who is in control and full of post adolecent angst.

I raised two boys and I was one. According to my wife still am one sometimes. Yes you are 22 or 24 or whatever, but when it comes to girls you react like a 12 yo and it is all over your posts. I know this is serious stuff for you and I am not trying to mitigate that. It is hyperintensified because of your abuse but I really think that the answer will be the same. Have one of your friends read them for you. And please do ask your T and show them to him.

Now go have some Ice Cream.



Edited by Freedom49 (05/10/08 06:09 PM)

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#223725 - 05/11/08 03:05 PM Re: Have I said something stupid? [Re: Freedom49]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1934
Loc: durham, north england
Well, I know there are many things immotionally I never learnt to do properly, ---- sinse obviously i spent the entire time at secondary school beeing abused. that makes perfect sense, as does the idea of actual fears, ---- such as my problem with the S word.

To talk of someone else being in control though seems very strange indeed to me, sinse these feelings and unlearned skills are there, their mine, I see them, I know where they are.

I haven't played serious chess sinse I was 17. I've recently bought a chess board and am acquiring a chess program to play against, sinse when in states of depression that sort of detailed logic appeals to me.

it is true I haven't played chess for 8 years, and only learnt so much of the game, and will need to learn more to be a better chess player. sayin "well it's 17 year old Luke in control playing chess" would just be weerd, and make no sense. It's 25 year old Luke playing chess, he just hasn't played for 8 years.

Ditto with my reactions. I fell in love with a girl at the age of 9, but then two years later, just as I was beginning to start thinking about girls, ---- and about the stuff my parents had told me about you know what, I started getting abused.

I have loads of female friends, but their exactly like my male friends, ---- I've actually asked around, and people say I show no genda related biases whatsoever. But I know there is more out there, and I want to experience it, I just start getting afraid whenever I considder it.

another highly confusing reaction I always get from girls whenever I start beeing really nervous and blushing, is "Oh, that's really sweet"

In a theatrical warm up exercise, we did the "I went to the shops and bought" game, where you say your name and what you bought, then repeat the names of everyone else and what they bought.

one girl decided to say she bought some (insert s word), toys, and I couldn't even get the word out. ****, who was next to me, first asked me what was wrong, then when i admitted I wasn't comfortable with that stuff told me how sweet that was.

this has always confused me, ---- why is being really uncomfortable about the subject, and unnable to give complements considdered to be so sweet?

Oh heck, I'm rambling again, ---- sorry. I'll talk to my T tomorrow.

Yee Gods! this recovery thing feels like lirching from crysis to crysis!




Edited by dark empathy (05/12/08 07:53 AM)

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#223736 - 05/11/08 04:42 PM Re: Have I said something stupid? [Re: dark empathy]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
Luke,
I think women find it "sweet" because they feel it is coming from an area not of pain, embarassment and shame, but from modesty. It is so rare for a man your age to be uncomfortable with the s word. Most men your age are VERY comfortable with it and tend to make others uncomfortable by turning everything into inuendo.
I am sure they feel you just are uncomfortable with talking about it in mixed company. In the good old days it was considered crude and impolite. They probably assume because of your upbringing you are embarassed. That to a modern girl, nice girl would probably be pleasantly surprising. I am sure they are just misinterpreting your reaction as modesty. If that were the case I would find it sweet too. Sadly it isn't. Good luck.



Edited by Freedom49 (05/11/08 04:44 PM)

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