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#220045 - 04/23/08 09:33 PM We're #1-- In Prisoners
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
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Registered: 08/24/00
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Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Interesting bit of news from the International Herald-Tribune:

International Herald Tribune
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/23/america/23prison.php

U.S. prison population dwarfs that of other nations

By Adam Liptak
Wednesday, April 23, 2008

The United States has less than 5 percent of the
world's population. But it has almost a quarter of the world's prisoners.

Indeed, the United States leads the world in
producing prisoners, a reflection of a relatively
recent and now entirely distinctive American
approach to crime and punishment. Americans are
locked up for crimes - from writing bad checks to
using drugs - that would rarely produce prison
sentences in other countries. And in particular
they are kept incarcerated far longer than prisoners in other nations.

Criminologists and legal scholars in other
industrialized nations say they are mystified and
appalled by the number and length of American prison sentences.

The United States has, for instance, 2.3 million
criminals behind bars, more than any other
nation, according to data maintained by the
International Center for Prison Studies at King's College London.

China, which is four times more populous than the
United States, is a distant second, with 1.6
million people in prison. (That number excludes
hundreds of thousands of people held in
administrative detention, most of them in China's
extrajudicial system of re-education through
labor, which often singles out political
activists who have not committed crimes.)

San Marino, with a population of about 30,000, is
at the end of the long list of 218 countries
compiled by the center. It has a single prisoner.

The United States comes in first, too, on a more
meaningful list from the prison studies center,
the one ranked in order of the incarceration
rates. It has 751 people in prison or jail for
every 100,000 in population. (If you count only
adults, one in 100 Americans is locked up.)

The only other major industrialized nation that
even comes close is Russia, with 627 prisoners
for every 100,000 people. The others have much
lower rates. England's rate is 151; Germany's is 88; and Japan's is 63.

The median among all nations is about 125,
roughly a sixth of the American rate.

There is little question that the high
incarceration rate here has helped drive down
crime, though there is debate about how much.

Criminologists and legal experts here and abroad
point to a tangle of factors to explain America's
extraordinary incarceration rate: higher levels
of violent crime, harsher sentencing laws, a
legacy of racial turmoil, a special fervor in
combating illegal drugs, the American
temperament, and the lack of a social safety net.
Even democracy plays a role, as judges - many of
whom are elected, another American anomaly -
yield to populist demands for tough justice.

Whatever the reason, the gap between American
justice and that of the rest of the world is enormous and growing.

It used to be that Europeans came to the United
States to study its prison systems. They came away impressed.

"In no country is criminal justice administered
with more mildness than in the United States,"
Alexis de Tocqueville, who toured American
penitentiaries in 1831, wrote in "Democracy in America."

No more.

"Far from serving as a model for the world,
contemporary America is viewed with horror,"
James Whitman, a specialist in comparative law at
Yale, wrote last year in Social Research.
"Certainly there are no European governments
sending delegations to learn from us about how to manage prisons."

Prison sentences here have become "vastly harsher
than in any other country to which the United
States would ordinarily be compared," Michael
Tonry, a leading authority on crime policy, wrote
in "The Handbook of Crime and Punishment."

Indeed, said Vivien Stern, a research fellow at
the prison studies center in London, the American
incarceration rate has made the United States "a
rogue state, a country that has made a decision
not to follow what is a normal Western approach."

The spike in American incarceration rates is
quite recent. From 1925 to 1975, the rate
remained stable, around 110 people in prison per
100,000 people. It shot up with the movement to
get tough on crime in the late 1970s. (These
numbers exclude people held in jails, as
comprehensive information on prisoners held in
state and local jails was not collected until relatively recently.)

The nation's relatively high violent crime rate,
partly driven by the much easier availability of
guns here, helps explain the number of people in American prisons.

"The assault rate in New York and London is not
that much different," said Marc Mauer, the
executive director of the Sentencing Project, a
research and advocacy group. "But if you look at
the murder rate, particularly with firearms, it's much higher."

Despite the recent decline in the murder rate in
the United States, it is still about four times
that of many nations in Western Europe.

But that is only a partial explanation. The
United States, in fact, has relatively low rates
of nonviolent crime. It has lower burglary and
robbery rates than Australia, Canada and England.

People who commit nonviolent crimes in the rest
of the world are less likely to receive prison
time and certainly less likely to receive long
sentences. The United States is, for instance,
the only advanced country that incarcerates
people for minor property crimes like passing bad checks, Whitman wrote.

Efforts to combat illegal drugs play a major role
in explaining long prison sentences in the United
States as well. In 1980, there were about 40,000
people in American jails and prisons for drug
crimes. These days, there are almost 500,000.

Those figures have drawn contempt from European
critics. "The U.S. pursues the war on drugs with
an ignorant fanaticism," said Stern of King's College.

Many American prosecutors, on the other hand, say
that locking up people involved in the drug trade
is imperative, as it helps thwart demand for
illegal drugs and drives down other kinds of
crime. Attorney General Michael Mukasey, for
instance, has fought hard to prevent the early
release of people in federal prison on crack
cocaine offenses, saying that many of them "are
among the most serious and violent offenders."

Still, it is the length of sentences that truly
distinguishes American prison policy. Indeed, the
mere number of sentences imposed here would not
place the United States at the top of the
incarceration lists. If lists were compiled based
on annual admissions to prison per capita,
several European countries would outpace the
United States. But American prison stays are much
longer, so the total incarceration rate is higher.

Burglars in the United States serve an average of
16 months in prison, according to Mauer, compared
with 5 months in Canada and 7 months in England.

Many specialists dismissed race as an important
distinguishing factor in the American prison
rate. It is true that blacks are much more likely
to be imprisoned than other groups in the United
States, but that is not a particularly
distinctive phenomenon. Minorities in Canada,
Britain and Australia are also disproportionately
represented in those nation's prisons, and the
ratios are similar to or larger than those in the United States.

Some scholars have found that English-speaking
nations have higher prison rates.

"Although it is not at all clear what it is about
Anglo-Saxon culture that makes predominantly
English-speaking countries especially punitive,
they are," Tonry wrote last year in "Crime,
Punishment and Politics in Comparative Perspective."

"It could be related to economies that are more
capitalistic and political cultures that are less
social democratic than those of most European
countries," Tonry wrote. "Or it could have
something to do with the Protestant religions
with strong Calvinist overtones that were long influential."

The American character - self-reliant,
independent, judgmental - also plays a role.

"America is a comparatively tough place, which
puts a strong emphasis on individual
responsibility," Whitman of Yale wrote. "That
attitude has shown up in the American criminal justice of the last 30 years."

French-speaking countries, by contrast, have
"comparatively mild penal policies," Tonry wrote.

Of course, sentencing policies within the United
States are not monolithic, and national comparisons can be misleading.

"Minnesota looks more like Sweden than like
Texas," said Mauer of the Sentencing Project.
(Sweden imprisons about 80 people per 100,000 of
population; Minnesota, about 300; and Texas,
almost 1,000. Maine has the lowest incarceration
rate in the United States, at 273; and Louisiana the highest, at 1,138.)

Whatever the reasons, there is little dispute
that America's exceptional incarceration rate has had an impact on crime.

"As one might expect, a good case can be made
that fewer Americans are now being victimized"
thanks to the tougher crime policies, Paul
Cassell, an authority on sentencing and a former
federal judge, wrote in The Stanford Law Review.

From 1981 to 1996, according to Justice
Department statistics, the risk of punishment
rose in the United States and fell in England.
The crime rates predictably moved in the opposite
directions, falling in the United States and rising in England.

"These figures," Cassell wrote, "should give one
pause before too quickly concluding that European sentences are appropriate."

Other commentators were more definitive. "The
simple truth is that imprisonment works," wrote
Kent Scheidegger and Michael Rushford of the
Criminal Justice Legal Foundation in The Stanford
Law and Policy Review. "Locking up criminals for
longer periods reduces the level of crime. The
benefits of doing so far offset the costs."

There is a counterexample, however, to the north.
"Rises and falls in Canada's crime rate have
closely paralleled America's for 40 years," Tonry
wrote last year. "But its imprisonment rate has remained stable."

Several specialists here and abroad pointed to a
surprising explanation for the high incarceration
rate in the United States: democracy.

Most state court judges and prosecutors in the
United States are elected and are therefore
sensitive to a public that is, according to
opinion polls, generally in favor of tough crime
policies. In the rest of the world, criminal
justice professionals tend to be civil servants
who are insulated from popular demands for tough sentencing.

Whitman, who has studied Tocqueville's work on
American penitentiaries, was asked what accounted
for America's booming prison population.

"Unfortunately, a lot of the answer is democracy
- just what Tocqueville was talking about," he
said. "We have a highly politicized criminal justice system."


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#220047 - 04/23/08 09:43 PM Re: We're #1-- In Prisoners [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16263
Ken,

That's an incredible 46,000 prisoners per state! Staggering, absolutely staggering statistic. Something's definitely wrong here. Do you have any personal opinions on this issue you'd care to share?

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#220048 - 04/23/08 09:44 PM Re: We're #1-- In Prisoners [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16263
duplicate post



Edited by walkingsouth (05/03/08 05:51 PM)
_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#220050 - 04/23/08 09:46 PM Re: We're #1-- In Prisoners [Re: WalkingSouth]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
It's what happens when you go eye for an eye instead of rehabilitation. I'm not really surprised. *shrug*

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#220112 - 04/24/08 06:51 AM Re: We're #1-- In Prisoners [Re: AndyJB2005]
reality2k4 Offline
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Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Hmmm Andy is so right. Tax payers foot the bill for this mess, and it wont stop recidivism.
Bring back discretion, instead of totally getting tough on crime.

Jail should be reserved for violent offenders, not stuffed with those who could receive community sentencing,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#220117 - 04/24/08 07:48 AM Re: We're #1-- In Prisoners [Re: reality2k4]
alexey Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 1674
Loc: Moscow, Russia
If these numbers are correct, I start to fear America.

For some reason, and judging from what I watch on TV, America seems to me as a state with total police control. People have much less freedom before the police than in other countries. It has scared me.

Russia goes number 2 in terms of the rate, but we don't have so harsh administative laws and our police is way more tolerant.

These are my thoughts. I can only judge from the Mass Media sources.

Alexey

_________________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
E[:]|||||[:]3
(")_(")
--------
When you feel all alone and unhappy, turn to you Inner Child and talk to Him.
You will see He can comfort you like nothing else!

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#220209 - 04/24/08 04:07 PM Re: We're #1-- In Prisoners [Re: alexey]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Ken,

So it sounds like we criminalize aberrant behavior rather than address it. I wonder if anyone thinks that locking so many people up achieves much, other than turning then into better criminals.

L.

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#221074 - 04/28/08 12:20 PM Re: We're #1-- In Prisoners [Re: roadrunner]
Hauser Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Where have you guys been? I've known about this since..........
well............for a long time.

Then again, I read things like this for my news....................
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/prison-nation.html

___________________________________________________________________

Prison Nation

by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.



Americans, perhaps like all people, have a remarkable capacity for tuning out unpleasantries that do not directly affect them. I'm thinking here of wars on foreign lands, but also the astonishing fact that the United States has become the world's most jail-loving country, with well over 1 in 100 adults living as slaves in a prison. Building and managing prisons, and locking people up, have become major facets of government power in our time, and it is long past time for those who love liberty to start to care.

Before we get to the reasons why, look at the facts as reported by the New York Times. The U.S. leads the world in prisoner production. There are 2.3 million people behind bars. China, with four times as many people, has 1.6 million in prison. In terms of population, the US has 751 people in prison for every 100,000, while the closest competitor in this regard is Russia with 627. I'm struck by this figure: 531 in Cuba. The median global rate is 125.

What's amazing is that most of this imprisoning trend is recent, dating really from the 1980s, and most of the change is due to drug laws. From 1925 to 1975, the rate of imprisonment was stable at 110, lower than the international average, which is what you might expect in a country that purports to value freedom. But then it suddenly shot up in the 1980s. There were 30,000 people in jail for drugs in 1980, while today there are half a million.

Other factors include the criminalization of nearly everything these days, even passing bad checks or the pettiest of thefts. And judges are under all sorts of minimum sentencing requirements. Now, before we move to causes and answers, please consider what jail means. The people inside are slaves of the state. They are captured and held and regarded by their captors as nothing other than biological beings that take up space. The delivery of all services to them is contingent on the whims of their masters, who have no stake in the outcome at all.

Now, you might say that this is necessary for some people, but be aware that it is the ultimate assault on human dignity. They are "paying the price" for their actions, but no one is in a position to benefit from the price paid. They aren't working off debts or compensating victims or struggling to overcome anything. They are just "doing time," costing taxpayers almost $25,000 a year per person. That's all these people are to society: a cost, and they are treated as such.

And the communities in which they exist in these prisons consist of other un-valued people, and they become socialized into this mentality that is utterly contrary to every notion of civilization. Then there are the relentless threat and reality of violence, the unspeakable noise, the pervasiveness of every moral perversity. In short, prisons are Hell. It can be no wonder that they rehabilitate no one. As George Barnard Shaw said, "imprisonment is as irrevocable as death."

What's more, everything we know about government applies to this ultimate government program. It is expensive (states alone spend $44 billion on prisons every year), inefficient, brutal, and irrational. The modern prison system is also a relatively new phenomenon in history, one that is used to enforce political priorities (the drug war) rather than punish real crimes. It is also manipulated by political passions rather than a genuine concern for justice. The results of the drug war are not to reduce consumption but rather the opposite. Illegal drugs are now a $100 billion dollar industry in the US, while the drug war itself costs taxpayers $19 billion, even as the costs of running the justice system are skyrocketing (up 418% percent in 25 years).

People say that crime is down, so this must be working. Well, that depends on what you mean by crime. Drug use and distribution are associated with violence solely because they are illegal. They are crimes because the state says they are crimes, but they do not fit within the usual definition we find in the history of political philosophy, which centers on the violation of person or property. What's more, the "crime" of drug use and distribution hasn't really been kept down; it has only gone further underground. It's a major irony and commentary on the workability of prisons that drug markets are very active there.

Now to causes. Some social scientists give the predictable explanation that all this is due to the lack of a "social safety net" in the U.S. In the first place, the U.S. has had such a net for a hundred years, and yet these people seem not to have noticed, even though no such net is big enough for some people. Moreover, it is more likely the very presence of such a net – which creates a moral hazard so that people do not learn to be responsible for their own well-being – that contributes to criminal behavior (all else being equal).

There are those on all sides who attribute the increase to racial factors, given that the imprisoned population is disproportionately black and Hispanic, and noting the disparity in crime rates in such places as Minnesota with low levels of minority populations. But this factor too could be illusory, especially as regards drug use, since it is far more likely that a state system will catch and punish people with less influence and social standing than those whom the state regards as significant.

A more telling point comes to us from political analysts, who observe the politicization of judicial appointments in the United States. Judges run on their "tough on crime" records, or are appointed for them, and so have every incentive to lock people up more than justice truly demands.

One factor that hasn't been mentioned so far in the discussion is the lobbying power of the prison industry itself. The old rule is that if you subsidize something, you get more of it. And so it is with prisons and the prison-industrial complex. I've yet to find any viable figures on how large this industry is, but consider that it includes construction firms, managers of private prisons, wardens, food service providers, counselors, security services, and a hundred other kinds of companies to build and manage these miniature societies. What kind of political influence do they have? Speculation here, but it must be substantial.

As for public concern, remember that every law on the books, every regulation, every line in the government codebook, is ultimately enforced by prison. The jail cell is the symbol and ultimate end of statism itself. It would be nice if we thought of the interests of the prisoners in society and those that will become so. But even if you are not likely to be among them, consider the loss of privacy, the loss of liberty, the loss of independence, the loss of all that used to be considered truly American, in the course of the building of prison nation.

But won't crime go up if we abandon our prison system? Let Robert Ingersoll answer: "The world has been filled with prisons and dungeons, with chains and whips, with crosses and gibbets, with thumb-screws and racks, with hangmen and headsmen – and yet these frightful means and instrumentalities and crimes have accomplished little for the preservation of property or life. It is safe to say that governments have committed far more crimes than they have prevented. As long as society bows and cringes before the great thieves, there will be little ones enough to fill the jails."

April 18, 2008










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#221075 - 04/28/08 12:29 PM Re: We're #1-- In Prisoners [Re: Hauser]
Hauser Offline
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Loc: United States
Andy? When you speak of "rehab" instead of "eye for an eye", what exactly are you talking about?


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#221104 - 04/28/08 01:37 PM Re: We're #1-- In Prisoners [Re: Hauser]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Well, what I meant was, when sentences seem to be more about getting them back than rehabilitation I think of "eye for an eye" justice. For example, in California they have the 3 strikes law. Instead of rehabilitation (drug treatment, counseling, trying to get them out of the situation, etc) they simply say you got 3 times, and then it's life in prison.

So by that of course prison populations are higher. We don't work to help them change, we just lock them up HOPING they change.





_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#222253 - 05/03/08 02:56 AM Re: We're #1-- In Prisoners [Re: AndyJB2005]
skingraph Offline
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Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 39
Worst thing about united states is their drug laws,its soo dumb specialy over weed.Get caught with a few pounds,5years soo stupid,for something that grows out of the ground.


Commit murder in some europeon countries get 30years and less,In the united states(at the present)get 30 years and more which to me,is better than most europeon countries.

"England's rate is 151; Germany's is 88; and Japan's is 63".
Intersting,all former dictator countries,i would be scared to live there,where they kill people based on religion or the roundness of their eyes.Or if someone gets a hair up their ass!hehe

My point Being
"Look at yourselves"


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#222742 - 05/06/08 04:05 AM Re: We're #1-- In Prisoners [Re: Hauser]
reality2k4 Offline
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Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
One good thing tho'.

You would not have to "imagine" the walls anymore!

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#222772 - 05/06/08 08:30 AM Re: We're #1-- In Prisoners [Re: reality2k4]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
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Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5773
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
It does get stupid. An art dealer in my town just got 6 yrs for growing 17 pot plants on a farm nearby where he used to rent. Now, it will cost us taxpayers at least $25,000 a year for incarceration, loss of untold thousands of what he would have paid in taxes, maybe loss of jobs for people who worked at his gallery, plus costs of parole supervision for years after he is released.

What are these people thinking?


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#222792 - 05/06/08 09:35 AM Re: We're #1-- In Prisoners [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6317
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
Originally Posted By: Ken Singer, LCSW

What are these people thinking?



Its a well-planned strategy to control us and scare us into submission. We dont have all these people in prison "just because it happened to work out that way." Its not because we have too many bad people. Look at who they capture and imprison. They take the low-hanging fruit....that is the drug offenders.

Prisons are an industry. They employ MANY, MANY workers and corporations that employ MANY lobbyists and feed many state and federal representatives with campaign funding.

Some prisons are run by private, for-profit contractors.

This ain't no happenstance!

BTW: That artist will likely lose his home, gallery and everything else under the DEA regulations allowing them to seize and liquidate. Welcome to Amerika!

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#222807 - 05/06/08 11:24 AM Re: We're #1-- In Prisoners [Re: Still]
Hauser Offline
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Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
The War on Drugs is the worst social scourge that has ever been forced on the American people, save, PERHAPS, MAYBE, slavery.

My reading list for education about the War on Drugs started with Peter Mcwilliams's "Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do" http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/books/aint/ and has recently ended with Mike Grey's "Drug Crazy" http://books.google.com/books?id=a8g7Qpt...-with-thumbnail

The later book is VERY sobering about the misery, cost, tragedy, and unintended consequences resulting from the prohibition of drugs.

It also points out the outright lies that were put forward and accepted by a half-asleep congress when the first drug laws were passed.

Did you guys know that up until 1914, any 12 year old child could go into nearly ANY neighborhood pharmacy and legally buy PURE heroin, pharmaceutically pure heroin and cocain? And yet, there was no "drug crisis" as we are constantly told today. Sure, there were addicts in our country, but they were functioning, tax-paying addicts that functioned in every capacity, much the way Winston Churchill was drunk on Brandy every waking minute of his life. Funny isn't it? Someone like Churchill can be a drunk every minute of his waking life and be revered as a savior of the free world while someone else who chooses a different psycho-active substance to put in his body has his assets taken away from him (often without trial or even charges brought against him), thrown in jail, and his kids taken away from him.


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#222813 - 05/06/08 11:33 AM Re: We're #1-- In Prisoners [Re: Hauser]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I'm with you, Alan. However, people in 1914 weren't as aware of what drugs even were, so it stands to reason that it would be less out of control. Now, with it in music and other mainstream entertainment, I think it would be harder to get kids to not try it.

Kids should not have access (or as easy access, at least, if we're realistic.)

I think drugs should be legal, but like alcohol, 21 and over. I mean crack and heroin, I don't know. They get it anyway, and at least they wont die in drug deals gone wrong. *shrug* I don't know.

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#222825 - 05/06/08 12:03 PM Re: We're #1-- In Prisoners [Re: AndyJB2005]
Hauser Offline
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Loc: United States
heh Andy, you always say "I don't know"........TAKE A STAND! lol


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#222830 - 05/06/08 12:15 PM Re: We're #1-- In Prisoners [Re: Hauser]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
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Loc: 2 NATO Nations
Yeah Andy!...what Hauser said...I guess...not sure though.

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#222940 - 05/06/08 09:46 PM Re: We're #1-- In Prisoners [Re: Still]
Hauser Offline
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Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Before Prohibition: Images from the preprohibition era when many psychotropic substances were legally available in America and Europe.

http://wings.buffalo.edu/aru/preprohibition.htm

I think I could use some after reading todays news!


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