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#218951 - 04/18/08 05:12 PM Recovering Healthy Sexuality
ineffable Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
Before you go any further

This is a thread about sex
Between consenting adults

By participating you are consenting to:

Be comfortable talking about sex

Take off your shoes & socks
Loosen your tie
Put on yer turkey pants
Smoke 'em if ya got 'em

Check all genders, positions, religious persuasions & morality at the door

There are other threads about love vs lust etc
Is your perspective better suited there?

Before you hit submit to review your post

Does it end shame neutral?
If you are working something out for yourself, press on
If you are judging or preaching, then really personalize it
Start your own thread
Zero tolerance for any "new/old" shame here

Do you need to be graphic or fetish specific to make your point?
Take the theme of intimacy or vulnerability or control & personalize it
Start yer own black leather kitchen utensils feather boa thread

This thread is about keeping your eyes open sex
Because you are connected to your partner, not watching porn at the same time
It is about keeping your eyes closed sex
Because you are in the heat of the moment, not imagining Jewel or Colin Farrel

Let's begin

From a book I am reading

Healthy Sexuality is defined as:

Adds to self esteem
Has no victims
Deepens meaning
Uses vulnerability for excitement
Cultivates sense of being adult
Furthers ones sense of self
Expands reality
Relies on safety
Is mutual & intimate
Takes responsibility for needs
May bring legitimate suffering
Originates in integrity
Presents challenges
Integrates most authentic parts of self
Is fun & playful
Accepts the imperfect

Still comfortable & consenting?

_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


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#218952 - 04/18/08 05:33 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: ineffable]
Freedom49 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
Craig, I think this is an excellent topic. To me sex was totally messed up in my head. I had no idea what good sex was or what it was supposed to do other and make me feel good and get her pregnant. not necesarily in that order either. I somehow got it into my head that sex was what happeded to me as a kid and what I did with other men and women as an adult. 50 years later I am learning differently. I am glad we can talk about this and I like your disclaimer post too.

I found that when I was faced with the possibility of sex I would usually either fantasize in my mind about someone else or some other situation in order to go with it. Once done I was relieved it was over and just wanted to get away mentally. Kind of like when I was being abused.

I have discovered that I can stay in the moment. Enjoy the other person and think and talk about what makes them feel good and how we can work together for a really pleasurable experience.

I had to re-train myself to do that. It was not easy. But I found it was definately worth it. It took both of us and cooperation with each other to do that. It was a whole new experience. It didn't work everytime but it was fun trying. I am much more comfortable with sex and talking about it which I could not do before. I would just freeze up.

Thanks again Craig for this post.



Edited by Freedom49 (04/18/08 05:36 PM)

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#219063 - 04/19/08 10:01 AM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: Freedom49]
ineffable Offline
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Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
Hi Roger
Thanks for the encouragement & your post to get the dialogue going
I realized for myself through a different thread that I believed my abuse = sex
Now being able to see that error in my thinking is a good start towards healthy sex

I also haven't had a real strong sense of body presence for want of a better term
(tend to be "in my head" a lot)
Lately I have been doing a lot of yoga, stretching & meditation on body awareness
Feeling the "aliveness" of my hands, feet, etc

I haven't had a partner for a very long time but I look forward to exploring this further with
someone I care about because I also have a tendency to "go away" during sex
I believe having increased body awareness may help keep me grounded

Kinda like "expanding on reality" from that list in my first post





_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


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#219105 - 04/19/08 02:28 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: ineffable]
Calanthe Offline
New Here

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 109
Loc: California
Hey Craig,

Thanks for this post. I think it is an important issue and I will be interested in what comes form it. But I really want to add another disclaimer here. Yeah I know maybe I should have Robbie Brown write it (see Off Topic Forum, US Navy Mans Two Nuclear Subs with Women) but it is based on my experience and it is my disclaimer so I will just wing it.

Disclaimer: Integrating Healthy Sex into your life is a late stage recovery issue. If you have not dealt with the early recovery issues this should not be a priority. For one simple fact you are not ready for it. If you cannot have sex unless you are loaded or drunk healthy sex is not a priority. If you cannot speak to or integrate your multiple personalities, again integrating healthy sex is not the priority. If you have not treated your depression or the nightmare of your abuse is still running your life worrying about whether or not you are have healthy sex is a misdirection of your recovery. I am not saying you will not gain something from this thread or that you should not contribute but some of what is said here will simply not make since even if you think you understand the words that are being used and you will not be able to apply them as intended. If you think you fall into this category I would suggest you PM the person who’s advice you want to follow and see if they can adapt the information for your position.

Here is an example of what I am talking about. I entered sexual recovery 21 years ago. When I came into the rooms I was shut down and out of touch with myself and the world around me. I used sex to accomplish this. I had multiple anonymous sexually encounters on a daily basis to maintain my distance from the world and myself.

One of the first things my sponsor talked to me about was staying present during sex and I was like are you kidding I am present how much more present can be I am having sex. But the truth was I was not anywhere near present during sex, regardless of where my body was, I wasn’t on the same planet with the person. I was so checked out I preferred that no one talked before, after and during…I mean why spoil the magic of the moment.

After about 18 months of trying and failing to even moderate my behavior my sponsor said “OK pumpkin, we are going to make this as simple for you as we can you need to get the name of everybody you have sex with. Only the first name and you can get it anytime during your encounter but you have to get it.”

This is where I had to start so that I could learn to be present during sex. Because even though I heard the words and knew I was not doing what they said I did not have tools or healing to apply the simple instruction of being present during sex. I had to learn it in baby steps: i.e. ask their name, give them my name (see that was not part of the deal to begin with I did not have to give my name, just get theirs), open my eyes see who I was with, here is a big scary step look in their eyes (it took years to do that) and another one that took a lot more recovery and healing on my part was to thank them for sharing their body with me. Do you realize I had to practice this in private….say thank you to the mirror before I could say thank you to a person. This was not a baby step this was way down the road and I mean years down the road of my recovery.

So what I am say to people in new recovery is ask questions and take it slow and clear up the other stuff first. Remember integrating healthy sex is not your priority, it may be your goal but it is not what you need to focus on in early recovery from sexual abuse.

If you want to start on this path start checking in with yourself about what you do during sex? How it feels to you etc. etc. and if you ask for direction from someone be honest about where you are at. No one can help you if you don’t tell them the truth.

That my disclaimer for this thread. So as they say “Let the Games Begin”

Scott

_________________________
You can't save your Ass and your Face at the same time. (Anonymous)

And given the choice I will save my ass first everytime(STC)

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#219123 - 04/19/08 04:13 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: Calanthe]
Freedom49 Offline
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Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
Scott, I can so relate to that. Sadly I can relate all to well. I had not T and no one to guide me but my instincts were that something was not right. I started trying to connect too at some point.
I think that is excellent advice. New to recovery he is right this should not be your goal right now. Get over this abuse, the pain the hurt and the anger. Then start healing the symptoms. Thank you Scott for that excellent advice. I tried it backwards and it not only failed but it hurt some really nice people.


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#220474 - 04/25/08 04:20 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: Freedom49]
ineffable Offline
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Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
Scott

Thanks for your post & your input
Yes I agree with you that this is a later stage recovery issue that needs to be addressed
Some of the men here are ready & the newer folk can benefit from seeing what lies ahead
& how some of us are dealing with recovering healthy sexuality through open & shame free dialogue

From the insight you have already shared, I really hope you contribute regularly to this thread
In an ideal world, there would be a sex therapist (perhaps from the Professional side)
that would be willing to add a post or 2

Roger

Your candor on every topic is always most welcome

C

_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


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#220532 - 04/25/08 07:18 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: ineffable]
USFbull Offline
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Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 92
Loc: Florida
I'll throw my hat in ring. I'm the really good looking guy thats funny and charming, and flirts with all the ladies. All of whom are shocked that I'm still a virgin. I've had oppurtunities, but frankly I am extremly terrified of sex. When it comes to physical intimacy, I hate it, its so shame and guilt riddled. But I am still in the very early stages of recovery, and it isn't my priority. It is just a nagging aspect of life. I could go into physical intimacy issues, but I'm tired haha.

_________________________
Neither fear nor courage saves us.
Unnatural vices Are fathered by our heroism.
Virtues Are forced upon us by our impudent crimes.
These tears are shaken from
the wrath-bearing tree.
~T.S. Eliot~

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#220538 - 04/25/08 07:55 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: USFbull]
ineffable Offline
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Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
Whoops... stepped on someone's hat
Thanks for posting

For me the opportunities are there too
On a superficial level only
I decided I want to "like" who I am with, which takes time & willingness
My recent experiences have been with those that don't want to be that well known
Or who have felt that my wanting to know them meant bells-would-be-a-ringing
Intimacy... it is complex

C

ps... the "I'm tired" comment will come in handy later in yer life too
;\)

_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


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#220549 - 04/25/08 10:00 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: ineffable]
USFbull Offline
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Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 92
Loc: Florida
Hahaha, your post cracks me up C. Yeah I'm the same plenty of superficial oppurtunities, even more on the horizon. I want to like myself, but when the opposite has been beat in my head for close to 19 years. I think my biggest issue is I want to feel in control, I'm not talking domination play or handcuffing and ordering my partner (although I would probably enjoy that) I just need to feel secure, like I can stop it at anytime. Unfortunatly I can't...um...finish... unless I feel that completly secure with who I am and whats going on. Which is usually never, because once every few months am I secure hahaha.

_________________________
Neither fear nor courage saves us.
Unnatural vices Are fathered by our heroism.
Virtues Are forced upon us by our impudent crimes.
These tears are shaken from
the wrath-bearing tree.
~T.S. Eliot~

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#220807 - 04/26/08 11:41 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: USFbull]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
I'd like to throw in just a brief comment: abuse ended for me at age 14, by which time I had concluded that sex is something that grownups do to a boy to hurt and shame him.

Sound familiar anyone?

And we wonder why we have difficulties ....

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#221161 - 04/28/08 04:21 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: ineffable]
Calanthe Offline
New Here

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 109
Loc: California
Well it is nice to see a little dialogue going on with this thread and with other threads concerning this issue.

USFBull this is for you and many others; you are always in control during sex. Neither you nor the other person has to do anything they do not want to do and you can stop and should stop if you do not want to do something at any point.

This is part of what it means to be an adult having sex with another adult. And regardless of how we may feel at times we are adults now and sex is very different between adults than between a child and an adult or a victim and a perpetrator. It takes a long time to believe and understand that.

OK Boys and Girls this is going to be triggering I am talking about sex now:

I am providing an example of what happened to me around the issue of stopping sex when you need to. Again this occurred in late stage recovery. I had already done a lot of work and was pretty good at avoiding situations that pushed my boundaries or made me feel uncomfortable. But I was trying something new and the man I was dating also wanted to try something new during dating and sex. We were waiting to have anal intercourse under the premises that it should occur after a closer emotional connection. This was more his issue than mine. But since I tend to check out or distance myself during sex I wanted use this experience to see if by allowing my emotional connection to this man to increase if I would experience anal intercourse with him in a different way than I had in the past.

What happened is that while we were having sex; things progressed as will happen and we both got caught up in the moment and we broke that boundary. Without discussing it or asking permission he was inside me. No he did not force me but it triggered me. I felt violated and I go to rage when I feel that now. So without discussing it we switched places with a lot of force. Sex is intense. Feelings are exposed. Things happen. The situation was escalating both on the emotional side and the sexual side and before I entered him I stopped myself and I stopped us. We had to talk.

The reason I had to stop was because I was about to enter him with only one thing in mind “you did this to me I am doing this to you”. It was payback pure and simple. I had left love, understanding and intimacy behind. I also knew that I soon as I stopped and we started talking I would have to deal with the real feelings that had been triggered, my feeling violated and vulnerable. I would so much rather be in the situation of saying “Oh Gee we both slipped. I got you got me. Fairs fair”. But you see when you start paying attention you can’t play that way you have stop as soon as you know it is time. So I stopped. And we talked and I had to tell him what I felt; all my feelings of vulnerability and feeling violated and my wanting to cause him to feel the same way. I had to listen to his feelings too. I had to let him say he was sorry and talk about what went on for him. This is how adults negotiate these things.

He did not violate me. He broke a mutually agreed upon boundary in a moment of passion, without discussing it. Passion is what occurs during sex. Sex with adults is about pushing boundaries and following our passions. But respecting boundaries yours and other peoples is also part being an adult and so is cleaning it up when a boundary is broken.

Point: You can stop sex at any time, period.

To do the kind of processing I did with this man required an already exciting emotional connection and commitment. You do not do this kind of processing with strangers or people you are not close to. You simply stop the behavior and do what you need to feel safe sometimes that is leave, sometimes it is simply behavior modification. I have found that it is easier to set boundaries in the beginning than to stop them when passions are high but it is always your right to stop when you feel uncomfortable.

If you are not maintaining your boundaries with strangers, then either the boundary is not important to you or you are setting yourself up for situations to feel violated and/or to feel justified in violating others and you have other issues to look at.

Another important issue for me in this experience was to realize this man had not intended to break our boundary on purpose and/or just to put in the subservient or bottom role (not a game I play). If that had been his reasons my reactions would have been different. Also a trust had been broken and trust had to be reestablished. He never pressed that boundary again and neither did I. If he had not proven to be trust worthy I would not have been able to believe his explanations and rightly so. I listen to what people say and then I watch what they do. It usually tells me who they really are.

You ask for what you want and need. Then you see what you get. Then make your the necessary choices or decisions.

I have to say here I also had to deal with resenting him for setting up a boundary that was more important him than to me and then breaking. I would never have felt violated if we hadn’t had the boundary in the first place; but again my stuff not his. Doesn’t that just suck and not in a good way.

I do not know if this is what this thread is for. I hope it is. My impression is that we are talking abut doing it differently about learning to be healthy with and during sex.

As they say where I come from “Take what you like and leave the rest”

Thanks for letting my share,

Scott

_________________________
You can't save your Ass and your Face at the same time. (Anonymous)

And given the choice I will save my ass first everytime(STC)

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#221184 - 04/28/08 06:03 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: Calanthe]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
Scott,
I want to thank you for you comment here. I agree with everything you said. That is a great example of how to have a healthy sexual relationship with some one. Trust must first be established, boundries laid out, and appropriate action taken during sex to ensure a good time is had by all.
Not communicating, accepting your boundries being crossed with out comment or action is playing the victim and I have done that all my life. Still do at times but I am getting more comfortable with stopping and talking. Before I never thought I could. I was there for sex so whatever the other person did was fine. That is not sex. That is being abused all over again. It is so easy for us to do that. Thanks for that Scott that was enlightening.


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#221186 - 04/28/08 06:19 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: ineffable]
GateKPR4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 955
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Originally Posted By: ineffable

Healthy Sexuality is defined as:

Adds to self esteem
Has no victims
Deepens meaning
Uses vulnerability for excitement
Cultivates sense of being adult
Furthers ones sense of self
Expands reality
Relies on safety
Is mutual & intimate
Takes responsibility for needs
May bring legitimate suffering
Originates in integrity
Presents challenges
Integrates most authentic parts of self
Is fun & playful
Accepts the imperfect

Still comfortable & consenting?


I have only had a couple healthy sexual relationships by using the guidelines above.
I remember them well and there was a feeling of oneness between us that was the most uplifting confident respecting loving trusting feeling we ever felt.
I have had many that have fallen short of almost every aspect on the list.

I'm single now and someday I will have to explore this area again I hope I make healthy choices for partners now that I have grown more confident in myself and know that I am human, I am not perfect, and I am true to myself. No longer do I need approval to feel human I am who I am and hope someday to find someone who will respect me and me them and once again share a healthy relationship emotionally & sexually.
Thank you for a most excellent topic.

_________________________
I'm a normal person dealing with abnormal experiences.
The greatest discoveries we will find within ourselves.
Ricky
__m_ô¿ô_m__
|| || || || || || |

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#221378 - 04/29/08 11:29 AM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: ineffable]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2574
Originally Posted By: ineffable


Healthy Sexuality is defined as:

Adds to self esteem
Has no victims
Deepens meaning
Uses vulnerability for excitement
Cultivates sense of being adult
Furthers ones sense of self
Expands reality
Relies on safety
Is mutual & intimate
Takes responsibility for needs
May bring legitimate suffering
Originates in integrity
Presents challenges
Integrates most authentic parts of self
Is fun & playful
Accepts the imperfect


Even without that list I recognize I've never come close to having real sex with anyone. Not even my wife. Keeping my eyes open during sex, dang that's hard. I've tried. I can do it, but then I can guarantee that I don't finish. Being in the present pretty much guarantees there is no end in sight for me. I've been "present" during sex with my wife a few times, and she can finish and all that, which is good for her, but once she's done, forget it, I'm ready to stop. I'm uncomfortable, awkward, weird, tense, nervous, you name it. My wife threw on a "Wife Beater T" last night when getting ready for bed. It was tight. Damn was she hot. I wanted her, but almost immediately after that thought I realized what that would mean, and then forget it, I didn't want it. I mean I did, but I didn't want all that tense nervous crap, so I was more than fine letting it go.

No clue how to fix all this. Would be nice. Barring that, you can take the desire away and I'll be more than fine with that at this point. Right now, sex is not fun. Before now, sex was about getting off, not about fun or intimacy.


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#221385 - 04/29/08 11:39 AM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: JustScott]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
I'm not one to talk about healthy sexuality obviously but maybe being intimate without it ending in sex might be good place to start Scott. Hugging, holding, kissing. If you know for a fact it wont end in sex it might go a long way in getting you used to being more intimate. Tell her up front it's not going to end in sex.

_________________________
Thriving

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#221388 - 04/29/08 11:50 AM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: JustScott]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
Scott I think that when you feel your WIFE wants sex or you are getting into a situation where sex is going to be REQUIRED of you it is a major turn off. You are in abuse mode. That is what you felt when your abuser came on to you or you know you were going into a situation where you would going to be asked to PERFORM.
I think that when it was your idea or you could initiate it or even seduce your wife into it even if she didn't want it you felt the power and control and it was ok.

Now that she wants it from you it is a different matter. You are feeling exactly like you felt when you abuser WANTED it from you and you knew there was no way out so you would allow it and allow yourself to enjoy it.

In order to get back to healthy sex for you and your wife the dynamics of how it is initiated are probably going to have to change. Just a thought but that is how Patti and I had to change it around. When she takes my hand and puts it on her breast I flash back to dad taking my hand. That kind of freezes me up when she does that but we can talk and work out some other things. Dad and I never talked during sex so if Patti and I can that helps.



Edited by Freedom49 (04/29/08 11:55 AM)

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#221404 - 04/29/08 12:44 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: Freedom49]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2574
Originally Posted By: Mogigo

I'm not one to talk about healthy sexuality obviously but maybe being intimate without it ending in sex might be good place to start Scott. Hugging, holding, kissing. If you know for a fact it wont end in sex it might go a long way in getting you used to being more intimate. Tell her up front it's not going to end in sex.

I love all the stuff leading up to sex. Cuddling is one of my favorite pastimes. Even being completely naked while cuddling is great (I prefer is actually). I love all the touching, caressing etc, but that actual act of sex is all messed up. I can try the no sex thing and see how it goes though. Guess we'll see.

Originally Posted By: Freedom49

the dynamics of how it is initiated are probably going to have to change.

Dad and I never talked during sex so if Patti and I can that helps.


Yes, dynamics are important. My wife has gotten pretty good at telling when I'm having issues and also can feel how tense I am and she does what she can to help me relax.

We do actually talk during sex now. Before, forget it. Any distractions. Tv being on, talking, noise, anything and there was no way I could continue. Guess at the time I needed complete and total concentration in order to keep my mind away from the present. At least that much has changed. I don't lose it when I'm in the present. Guess that is a positive step to reclaiming this healthy sex stuff. It also helps me realize that I had to work extremely hard at sex before, and it's not supposed to be hard right? It's supposed to be fun and exciting, not work.

Kinda feels good to realize that I am making some progress. Maybe I don't just want it all to go away.


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#223081 - 05/07/08 04:24 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: JustScott]
ineffable Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
Scott, you mentioned that you & your wife talk during sex now

A question if I may...
Do you use each others names?
(I know there are fears about calling out the wrong one in the heat of the moment)

The reason I ask is because of a connection I am making for myself while snailing thru the book "Sexual Anorexia" that had to do with
objectification & also being stuck on the experience of the sexual act rather than the connection to my partner

The twist & the difficulties I have experienced being intimate & present made sense BIGTIME considering
my & probably most of our sexual "initiation" for want of a better term
If I or my partner remain objects & I concentrate specifically on the act I am "good to go"
Calanthe mentioned previously he made it a habit to get & use his partner's name
Looking back for myself I see that I almost never used their names or if I was vocal it was always some generic term
If my partner used my name I was almost instantly off in some other galaxy
"Acting out" anonymously always worked because it was objectified & experiential 100% of the time with "no surprises"

I hope this dialogue continues

C



_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


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#223102 - 05/07/08 06:22 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: ineffable]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
Craig,
I can relate to that. If it was just hit and run sex I had no problems. It was just all about getting off and hoping I was good. When I was first with a new partner some one whose name I acutally knew, we were good to go and it was great for a few times. Then it started to become expected, then uncomfortable, then finally, work. They knew me now and I knew them. No more discovery of something new. I now knew the "object" and "object" knew me. Now we enter in to "relationship". Something I did not do real well. That is when sex no longer became fun for me. I did it because I was in a relationship now and that is now required.

When I married Patti my head was so screwed up about sex that I messed bad the first few years. She hung in there and we are doing much better. I understand about the gift of her body that she gives to me and I try to honor that and love her up real good. I try to stay in the moment and be there with her giving her feed back and my full attention. It takes longer and that is not always bad. We are getting to know each other in a more intimate way on several levels.


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#223203 - 05/08/08 08:16 AM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: Freedom49]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2574
I can't say that my wife and I use each others name all that often. If I think about the few times she has, it did seem like quite a jolt. I'll have to give this all some thought. I'd love to get some good recovery going in this area, it just scares the crap out of me.


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#223307 - 05/08/08 08:10 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: JustScott]
ondon Offline
New Here

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 3
Loc: Utah
First, I would like to thank everyone on this site. It has really brought some perspective in my life.

I am a gay man going through this amusement park therapy ride, and the issue of sex, let alone healthy sex hits close to the core of my issues. I agree with the outline of healthy sexual relationships, am not in the position to say I have encountered anything close.

My (sexual) abuse stopped when I was 15, after I created a very violent personality to confront my older brother. I am also D.I.D. or as known in Hollywood, Multiple Personality Disorder. (Not my only abuse, just my last. Said with no nostalgic ideals.) Since them I have never had a healthy relationship, let alone a healthy sexual one. I am 'porn star' quality, and use that to 'pretend' to have affirmation. I also have been through 8 years of intense therapy, the last episode at DelAmo Hospital outside of L.A. for some intense inpatient program. Embrace the one you are with, be honest,kind and caring.....then enjoy life, including a healthy sexual relationship. That is my 'dream-come-true' sorry MKC you were not IT!!!


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#223309 - 05/08/08 08:20 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: ondon]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
Welcome ondon to male survivor. I am glad you found us and am sad that you needed to. Improper and/or early sexualization of a child or person can result in a major malfunction in our sex lives and our feelings about ourselves as men, lovers, husbands fathers brothers etc. This is a place where we try to heal that and get back some semblence of a healthy life. I hope we can help you find some answers and to recover you mind and heart.


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#230188 - 06/10/08 08:27 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: JustScott]
Bulala Offline
New Here

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 17
Hey JustScott...

from the woman's perspective on this one...I have greatly and most assuredly gotten SO much more understanding about my FH through good open lines of communication.

when I first learned of his CSA and began to understand how he see's things in his minds eye during sexual activity (of any kind...) I honestly thought there were going to be super big scary goblins coming out of the closet...not just skeletons! ya know?!
And for the partner who doesn't have a clue what its like to be in y'all's shoes...its really hard not to walk on eggshells all the time. At first I was so concerned about triggers, and...well what is he going to think if I flirt or do this? and what happens if I want it to last longer? what happens if I want a quickie? How do I ASK for what I want and it not trigger a shameful response where he thinks he is a loser who can do nothing right???

In a healthy loving relationship...there is openness, right?
Well I was terrified of that openness.

I was terrified of what he was going to tell me...all those monsters in that closet. I was afraid of what he might want me to do, what he might like...all the what if's.
I knew my general boundaries- just the two of us, non-degrading, pleasurable for each of us. But as a southern woman, lets just say that the 'pleasurable for each of us' concept often got thrown out the window! "He's a man, he has to ejaculate or TERRIBLE things can happen and he will leave you!" my own fears of abandonment would shout. But this man...this man was OH SO different. and I couldn't make sense of it until he explained it.
Now I know that those 'monsters' in his closet that I was afraid were going to invade our intimate affection are more like the monsters from Monsters Inc. than they are from the fires of Mount Doom!!! And most of the time...those "monsters" are just a younger version of my FH in a big scary mask!
there are things that I thought I would take SO long to deal with that haven't taken me long at all, there are other things that will take longer but so what? Thats any relationship right?

I like what other scott said about being able to call it off at any moment if a thought enters your head that isn't healthy and loving and all the rest of those guidelines. Its normal when placing that boundary to build a HUGE METAL WALL at first...I mean, who is honestly going to respect an invisible fence they don't know about? So just communicate your needs...what is good...what is uncomfortable...WHY its good...WHY its uncomfortable.
Its intimacy...INTO ME SEE
I'm supposed to learn about myself as I open myself up to him...and he learns about himself as he opens up...and that makes us closer and more comfortable with each other allowing growth!

Its obvious that you find your wife very attractive...which is SO good to us! We love it when we can put on our old normal clothes that no one used to see and now there is someone who can see that and totally dig it! Don't be ashamed...she is your wife. She is who you chose to comfort you...and guess what....

She chose you!!

shame is what keeps us from being vulnerable. trust cancels it out.

when you can allow yourself to trust that she will respect what you need (even if, to you, it seems odd or that she might think you are 'crazy' or some other label) you'll begin to find a depth that allows even MORE growth! (I know...all this growing crap! hehehe)

I'd also suggest to look at some things that you notice when you are 'getting tense.' so that she doesn't have to call you out on it...that you can be in control of the situation and say...whatever..."My stomach is hurting, so I must be emotionally uncomfortable. Can you help me unpack that feeling?"

the dynamics changing is such a fabulous suggestion....
figure out what works for you,
and what is right for you might seem a little odd or different to you (or your partner), but if it feels totally wrong then have a buzz word!

_________________________
"There's life outside of your madness, and there's a face behind every scar...but theres a LOVE overflowing with gladness. Get out of that place that's restraining your love."

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#230579 - 06/12/08 01:55 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: roadrunner]
unitedfit Offline


Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 10
Loc: New York
I am still very new to this sight and have trouble finding my way around. I have a psych and I have come foward to be honest about my abuse and sexual abuse and realiaze what happened any times and saw how I was not to blame. The one statement made on the first page made by Calathe, about the discalimer, not sure if i should be responding here or were i go to get the advice I need to recover enough to look at healthy sex. I am partnered and would like to learn more about finding how to not follow the bad habits that were implemented into my sexual desires. So i am very confused and feel like I have no idea if I can ask for advice here for getting sexually healthy or were to go so I can eventually look here to work on stopping these bad triggers. I hope all this made sense. Am I in the wrong place?


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#230603 - 06/12/08 04:04 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: unitedfit]
arronb Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 1005
Loc: Perth
Hello unitedfit ...

you can ask questions ... if you don't think your questions fit this particular thread, start a new topic and ask your questions there \:\)
You'll be surprised how many people have the same questions as you ... being sexually healthy has many aspects to it.

There was much confusion over where to post this topic, because the title of the forum was felt to discourage open debate, but I guess in the end, you have to start somewhere ... so this forum, for now, is ok to post your questions in, or you could post it in the open forum ... if the mods feel it should be somewhere else they will move it ...

So in short ... post away \:\)

_________________________
Keep Smilin'
arronb

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#240809 - 07/28/08 08:30 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: arronb]
ineffable Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
This post was inspired by a discussion about pornography in a different forum.
I offer it in the spirit of a non Sodom & Gomorrah tone.

I don't subscribe to the school of thought that man & woman were created fully cognizant & emotive
or that sex is specifically for procreation.
Desire & pleasure are basic drives in my opinion.
I agree that sexual addiction is cyclical that becomes self perpetuating in time.
So it is wise to understand the original anxieties, thwarted needs & avoidances that started the cycle initially.

For me, dependence on pornography has a lot to do with control & is the ultimate selfish act.
Our partners are available & willing when we want them to be to do what we want them to do.
The outcome is always predictable & guaranteed.
It is also "vicarious vulnerability" in my opinion.
No risk to myself, unless I am hiding it from someone or avoiding real intimacy or letting Mr. Visa foot the bill.
My own avoidance is what troubles me the most.
I also believe one of the reasons pornography causes such strong distaste is the lack of or caricature of nurturing in the acts portrayed.

Vulnerability, intimacy & nurturing are integral to healthy sex.
I feel seeing depictions without these key aspects triggers negative reactions.

C



_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


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#249749 - 09/15/08 07:11 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: ineffable]
ineffable Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
Another piece in the puzzle?
I think I am figuring out finally why sex is so conflicted for me.

Quote:
Sexual excitement also requires that we momentarily become selfish & turn away from concerns about the other's pleasure in order to surrender to our own, that we momentarily stop worrying about hurting or rejecting the other person. We need to have the capacity to "use" another person without concerns
that the other will feel used.


As a survivor, all I can say is holeecrap.
I am speechless.
This feels bang-on & so frigging loaded to me.

Anybody?

C


_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


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#249791 - 09/15/08 11:15 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: ineffable]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2574
I'm not totally sure about that. I find myself thinking of my wife and what she's feeling the whole time. I find myself concerned about getting done before she does because I don't want there to be the possibility of her not getting what she wants. I don't think sex has to be "selfish" in any sense.

I suppose in some sense someone might consider the drive to climax as selfish, but I don't think in necessarily has to be.


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#249889 - 09/16/08 08:35 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: JustScott]
ineffable Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
I'm not totally sure about that. \:\)

Originally Posted By: JustScott
My wife threw on a "Wife Beater T" last night when getting ready for bed. It was tight. Damn was she hot. I wanted her, but almost immediately after that thought I realized what that would mean, and then forget it, I didn't want it.


If you rethink how this started in the context of "using" someone without being concerned how they felt.
Take out all the other concerns/labels/morality including procreation, objectification of your partner or making love or even orgasm itself... the point is can we allow ourselves to think about "using" someone for physical pleasure?
By the same token, can we accept someone "using" us?

That is something I am still giving much thought to because I am conflicted.

Scott, thanks for stepping up here because we have to start somewhere.
In this case with the recognition, understanding & acceptance of a natural desire for sex.

C


_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


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#249898 - 09/16/08 10:56 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: ineffable]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2574
Wow... that was a quote for a long time ago wasn't it? Wow... forgot all about that :-)

yes, I Guess everything else aside, there is a natural desire for sex. But does that natural desire have to be selfish? It's just an "instinctual" thing isn't it? Which means it's not really selfish or unselfish, it just is.

I think it's like a lot of things. It's not what it is, it's what you do with it.

Maybe I'm just nuts :-)


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#249932 - 09/17/08 02:30 AM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: JustScott]
1islandboy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 858
Loc: washington
I personally, don't like the thought of USING anyone.


I would like to think that I am GIVER.(or perhaps a RECIEVER).

I feel, there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE, even though the physical act remains the same.

That being said, if my girlfriend had a fantasy about being used,
I guess I could go there.

I feel,it is crucial for me, in trying to establish a healthy relatinship to have my default mindsetting on GIVER...!!!


(Got this GIVING concept from a manual)but,Isn't it true...???


Maybe I'm just a dried fruit. (being silly)

island

_________________________
Rise above the storm and you will find the sunshine ~ M.F. Fernandez

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#249952 - 09/17/08 09:46 AM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: 1islandboy]
ineffable Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
Originally Posted By: 1islandboy
I personally, don't like the thought of USING anyone.


Hey ya dried fruit. Thanks for responding!

That's just it isn't it? Or at least it is for me.
The thought.

When we kiss someone, we USE our mouth.

If I am in the moment thinking whether I am using or giving or receiving I am in sexual "difficulty".
In other words, I am not in my body I am now in my head.
I ain't present for myself or my partner.

A good friend brought my attention back (no pun intended) to the use of the word "momentary" in the original quote.
I am hypervigilant against using somebody or feeling used because of what that concept means to me.
Looking back now with this new "food for thought", my hesitancy & inhibition makes more sense, albeit misguided by
my SA experiences & subsequent decisions that "that will never happen again to me" or
"I will never do that" or "I will never be that way" to anyone.

That was then, this is now.

From the original Healthy Sexuality Defined:

"Uses vulnerability for excitement"

Being at peace with the concept of using or being used would allow for this IMO.

Hope yer having healthy sex island.

C

_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


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#249957 - 09/17/08 10:58 AM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: ineffable]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
Why does it have to be one person using or taking advantage of the other? Sex to me is a basic need, just like eating, and sleeping. It is part of what bonds 2 people together. I like and thrive off of the closeness I feel towards my H, when this part of our relationship is working. The sun shines better, the birds sing,the roses smell even more heavenly......

Sex is also about give and take. Sometimes I am more the giver, sometimes I am more the taker. And vise versa. Sometimes we are both giving, and sometimes we are both taking. Sometimes it is raw and powerful, sometimes sweet and tender. It all depends on the day, the time, the mood, whatever....it is always different.

To me it is all good, if my H is in the mood and I am not, if we do go for it, I don't feel used, I am doing it for him. I love him, if Im in the mood, and he isn't then it is my turn, I hope he doesn't feel used??? Now I wonder, I'll have to ask.

Scott, if my H had told me that I was looking hot, and just wanted to "use me" I would have felt like a million bucks, and he would have been greatly rewarded. does she even know? That seemed to me to be a potential win-win situation for both of you, I'm sorry this had to get in the way.

Island, give,receive, enjoy!!!

Warmly, NYDAISY


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#249960 - 09/17/08 11:17 AM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: NY Daisy]
ineffable Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
Before we go any further let's look at this too.

use [v. yooz]
-verb (used with object)

1. to employ for some purpose; put into service; make use of: to use a knife.
2. to avail oneself of; apply to one's own purposes: to use the facilities.
3. to expend or consume in use: We have used the money provided.
4. to treat or behave toward: He did not use his employees with much consideration.
5. to take unfair advantage of; exploit: to use people to gain one's own ends.
6. to drink, smoke, or ingest habitually: to use drugs.
7. to habituate or accustom.
8. Archaic. to practice habitually or customarily; make a practice of.

-verb (used without object)

9. to be accustomed, wont, or customarily found
(used with an infinitive expressed or understood, and, except in archaic use, now only in the past): He used to go every day.
10. Archaic. to resort, stay, or dwell customarily.

Part of the reason I wanted to dialogue on this was to identify what we project or transfer when
we think of "using" or being "used".

Hope the dialogue continues.

C

_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


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#250027 - 09/17/08 07:20 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: ineffable]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
I'm screwed up enough by my abuse that for me to get turned on at all I have to think of it in my head in terms of victimization either of me or of the person I'm with (usually depending on whether it's a woman or man or whether I'm bottom or top).

It isn't easy to admit and it's generally just my little secret that I keep to myself and use in my head when I need to cum or keep an erection.

I'll never forget the tears on my girlfriends face when I tried to keep my head in a place that I considered "normal" and "healthy". After that I concluded that not getting turned on was far more hurtful than having sick fantasies during sex.

The thing I struggle with now is not trying to rewire my brain somehow (I gave up on that) but trying to accept myself that way and not see myself as a "pervert" or "f ed up in the head" or "sick and twisted". This is a challenge.



_________________________
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My Art

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#250037 - 09/17/08 08:38 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: blueshift]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5778
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Doug:
The problem with what you have been doing for so long is that you are conditioning yourself with the orgasm to the fantasies of victimzation. The pairing of the images with the physical sensations only makes the connection stronger.

You should consider going to see someone who is a sex therapist. Check out this website for someone who is certified and can likely help you:

http://www.aasect.org/

Ken


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#250102 - 09/17/08 11:13 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
M3 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
Doug, you aren't alone in that. And you are right, it is a challenge, but one that can be overcome. Hang in there...

Peace and love...

Michael


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#251261 - 09/26/08 04:06 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: M3]
ineffable Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
A good friend of mine recently said he thought I get misinterpreted a lot in my threads.

This topic has been kinda hit & miss or even throw & stick.
Meaning throw it out there & see if anything sticks against the "wall" of shame still surrounding
a sense of recovering healthy sexuality.
Perhaps MS isn't a place where healthy sexuality is even discussable?

One more kick at the can of lube.

A premise compliments of a book on arousal & the use of sexual fantasies as antidotes to unconscious core issues.
Like guilt or worry or shame.

It has to do with rescue fantasies or the prospect of healing or fixing a partner.
(which is why I think it is relevant here).
Making the other feel powerful or desirable.
That sexual attention helps their self-esteem.
These thoughts or fantasies are a means of overcoming guilt as in:
"I'm not hurting you, I am helping you. I am a good person, not a bad one."
They are a way for us to feel important because they negate worries about being unimportant or useless,
thereby making sex safer & almost righteous?
When I read this it resonated deeply with me & it also seems to support some of the points in the
"Healthy Sex Defined" values list in an indirect way.

Any thoughts?

C

_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


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#251279 - 09/26/08 05:59 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: ineffable]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
Quote:
Perhaps MS isn't a place where healthy sexuality is even discussable?

now, now craig, we know that is not 100% true. i think, say 10% of the community have a shameless and unapologetic attitude toward the topic of healthy

......,............................................sex

now you've got me all distracted. soon you'll be waving big bowls of chocolate ice cream in front of our faces. how am i supposed to concentrate with sex and chocolate staring me in the face? disgusting!

i think you enjoy starting threads that pander to the lowest common denominator of human being.

don't you know as civilized human beings, we are beyond such triviality?

i never.......!

...................................................

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#251379 - 09/27/08 04:02 AM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: Sans Logos]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
Hi Craig:

I have discussed this topic with a few other people recently and my feelings are in-line with the ones expressed by NY Daisy. The end result is more about pleasing your partner and meeting their needs. But how did I get there from where I was, feeling used, to being able to be intimate and enjoy giving? Perhaps what you are reading is worded a bit off. I would re-word the one statement "Achieves vulnerability through intimacy". Your focus on sexual attention bringing increased self-esteem focuses on the end result, not on the benefit of intimacy enroute to the sexual act. Certainly having enjoyable sex can make anyone feel good about themselves. Enjoying an intimate relationship is far more beneficial than just a single simple sex act. A single act with no long-term attachment could be viewed as using someone.

And as for getting to that point, it wasn't immediate in my own recovery either. It took me about 2 years of slowly increasing my confidence to be able to respond in a positive manner to an eligible young divorcee that I had been introduced to by a mutual friend. After that relationship ended 3 years later, instead of going off of the deep end again, I began a search that ended with meeting my current wife 28 months ago. Our relationship has been a learning process as I am proud of my progress and on occasion she thinks that I still need to work on this or that. We are trying to work our issues together though.

I would say that as your personal successes in recovery breed greater confidence and your self-esteem begins to substantially recover, you eventually get to the point where taking a chance on intimacy becomes a possibility. The key is looking forward to your future possibilities in a healthy and positive manner while looking away from or letting-go of, our fears of our inadequacies, and our fears of rejection.

Take a chance, my man, ride the Reading. If you pass Go, you will feel a lot better about yourself.

Just let yourself go,

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#252306 - 10/01/08 08:43 AM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: Trucker51]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
This morning on the radio they were discussing the fact that people schedule in sex. That we are all so busy that there is no spontaniety anymore.

I always want to "pencil" it in. I like to talk to my H in the morning, and feel out if we will be hooking up later or not. We have 4 kids and feel it has to be somewhat planned.


My H on the other hand DISPISES this with a passion. He hates it to be anything but spur of the moment. Until this morning and hearing other people responding, I never put it in perspective with his past, and how he may have felt pressured to perform on command, when he felt I had the time.

Any thoughts guys?

NYDAISY


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#252309 - 10/01/08 08:56 AM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: NY Daisy]
M3 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
NYDAISY,

Good insight. I know if I feel the slightest bit of pressure to perform it gets in my head and one things leads to another and I don't enjoy the experience. \:\(

But that being said, it can't always be on his schedule, can it... Maybe you pencil in something else and surprise him? Hmmm... does mild deception on your part equal spontaneity on his part? You know him better than we do so you'll have to be the judge of that.

Good luck!

Michael


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#252310 - 10/01/08 09:01 AM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: roadrunner]
petercorbett Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2435
Loc: TEXAS
Amen to roadrunner, NUFF SAID.
Pete

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
A very humble alumni of the WOR Dahlonega, GA.
May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
Hope Springs, 2010.


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#252624 - 10/02/08 05:17 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: petercorbett]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
M3, No it can't always be on his schedule. I am certainly not above a touch of deception, especially if we are both getting what we want. I will definitely try it.


Thanks, NYDAISY


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#252627 - 10/02/08 05:19 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: NY Daisy]
M3 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
Let me know how it goes! I'm really interested if it works (but spare me the details...LOL). \:\)


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#254444 - 10/11/08 04:16 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: ineffable]
arronb Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 1005
Loc: Perth
Originally Posted By: ineffable
Another piece in the puzzle?
I think I am figuring out finally why sex is so conflicted for me.

Quote:
Sexual excitement also requires that we momentarily become selfish & turn away from concerns about the other's pleasure in order to surrender to our own, that we momentarily stop worrying about hurting or rejecting the other person. We need to have the capacity to "use" another person without concerns
that the other will feel used.


As a survivor, all I can say is holeecrap.
I am speechless.
This feels bang-on & so frigging loaded to me.

Anybody?

C


Hey C ... another interesting topic...

Just read this addition to healthy sexuality and wanted to quote this...

Healthy Sexuality is defined as:

Adds to self esteem
Has no victims
Deepens meaning
Uses vulnerability for excitement
Cultivates sense of being adult
Furthers ones sense of self
Expands reality
Relies on safety
Is mutual & intimate
Takes responsibility for needs
May bring legitimate suffering
Originates in integrity
Presents challenges
Integrates most authentic parts of self
Is fun & playful
Accepts the imperfect

“Sexual excitement also requires that we momentarily become selfish & turn away from concerns about the other's pleasure in order to surrender to our own, that we momentarily stop worrying about hurting or rejecting the other person. We need to have the capacity to "use" another person without concerns that the other will feel used.”

I really believe the statement quoted above is a positive reaffirming of healthy sexuality. My interpretation of the quote would be to say that it encourages one to suspend the belief or thought that we are ‘using’ or ‘being used’ by another when we ensure our own needs are being met.

The concept of healthy sexuality to me means having respect for your partner and yourself, would like to think the term “We need to have the capacity to "use" another person without concerns that the other will feel used.” is suggesting that we have to get over the feeling that sex is about one person ‘using’ another to get their rocks off (as we learnt during our abuse) and that getting our needs met does not mean we are ‘using’ or ‘being used’.

To me, the concept as mentioned is getting confused with terms that have totally different connotations ... ‘using’ and ‘being used’ by someone to get your rocks off with no consideration of the person you are with doesn’t say healthy sexuality to me, it is entirely forgetting that healthy sexuality requires you to be involved with your sex partner, regardless if you are in a committed relationship or having a casual encounter, and that getting your needs met is a vital part of healthy sexuality and should be ‘discussed’ with your partner as a part of our taking responsibility for our own needs.

A one sided encounter where only one person’s needs are being met...

Is that not the situation we found ourselves in during those years of unwanted abuse?

Is it not one of the twisted concepts of sex and love we took forward as we grew into dysfunctional sexual adults?

Is it not a concept or a feeling of being ‘used’ during sex that we are trying to replace now by entering into the concept of “healthy sexuality”?

I ask are we still in the realms of healthy sexuality here...

I don’t see how “using” or “being used” by someone even comes close to being a remotely helpful concept in a “healthy sexuality recovery” situation. Maybe I am missing what you are trying to impart here ... if that is the case I apologize and ask if you would, to please expand on it further.

_________________________
Keep Smilin'
arronb

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#254445 - 10/11/08 04:19 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: petercorbett]
arronb Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 1005
Loc: Perth
Originally Posted By: petercorbett
Amen to roadrunner, NUFF SAID.
Pete


Hey Pete

Enuff said … not really … I feel that shame and hurt have no place in a healthy sexual relationship, by virtue of abuse many of us lost the greatest pleasure available to us … the joy of sharing ourselves intimately with another.

It is an integral part of the human experience, surely accepting that this part of life is not for the CSA survivor is to give up on living itself.

As Calanthe so eloquently put “Integrating Healthy Sex into your life is a late stage recovery issue” …

I find this topic very enlightening, it really is a needed and essential part of my experience here at MS, the road to healthy sexual recovery is hard work but the rewards are so worth it \:\)

Hopefully one day MS will give this important topic its own forum (or sub-forum). As can be seen in this one topic there have been many interesting questions asked and some even answered ;\)

_________________________
Keep Smilin'
arronb

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#257091 - 10/22/08 10:04 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: USFbull]
nevragan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 907
Loc: NC
"I'm still a virgin. I've had oppurtunities, but frankly I am extremly terrified of sex. When it comes to physical intimacy, I hate it, its so shame and guilt riddled. But I am still in the very early stages of recovery, and it isn't my priority. It is just a nagging aspect of life."

I am new to the forum. After I read what you wrote, it is like you took my exact thoughts right out of my mind. I was raped at 11 and it has had a major impact on my life. I am 27 and have been working with my therapist for 10 months now. After looking around and reading other's posts, I don't feel as much of any odd person for still being a virgin. My thoughts mirror exactly what you said. This brings me a sense of relief. I feel like I have finally found a place with common ground. My friends haven't gone through what rape does to a person in regards to touching and sexual relations with others. I have felt like the outsider because they encourage and think it will be easy "to get some" as they say. Everything that scares me will go right out the window once I find the gal that wants to have sex right then and there. As parts in this thread said, your ready for healthy sex when your far enough along in your recovery. I agree. Currently, I'm not far enough along to be comfortable with any touch but that nagging reminder is still there about sex. Thank you for your time in reading my thoughts on this subject.


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#257098 - 10/22/08 11:30 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: nevragan]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
Never Again:

Welcome to our support site. Glad that you found us. I think that you will find that we are a caring and supportive bunch of guys. We are all here working towards freedom for everyone. Together we have a much better chance than we have alone.

You have come to the right place. Most of the action is on the survivor forum and the open or off-topic forums. Feel free to ask me any questions. I will be around some on each of the next 3 days if you want to talk.

Have hope, and keep coming back and taking chances. Someday you will be glad that you did.

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#257310 - 10/23/08 10:27 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: Trucker51]
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
I hope you are doing well, nice to see you in the chat.
I am in a healthy relationship for once.
My first marriage was a mistake and the second one was a disaster.

But now I have unconditional love and I cannot believe love can be this great. It is totally differnt and it is makeing up for lost love from my past 45 years. I waited a long time for this and glad I found it.

You have some good ideas concerning love and relationships.

Keep posting.

Michae Joseph

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#257311 - 10/23/08 10:29 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: nevragan]
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia

*** Triggers ***


I was raped by several relatives.

It has taken many years to get where I am.

And now at 46 I have recovered fully.

I hope you are doing better and your new T helps.

MJ

[Edited to add trigger warning.]



Edited by ModTeam (10/24/08 12:46 AM)

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