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#221161 - 04/28/08 04:21 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: ineffable]
Calanthe Offline
New Here

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 109
Loc: California
Well it is nice to see a little dialogue going on with this thread and with other threads concerning this issue.

USFBull this is for you and many others; you are always in control during sex. Neither you nor the other person has to do anything they do not want to do and you can stop and should stop if you do not want to do something at any point.

This is part of what it means to be an adult having sex with another adult. And regardless of how we may feel at times we are adults now and sex is very different between adults than between a child and an adult or a victim and a perpetrator. It takes a long time to believe and understand that.

OK Boys and Girls this is going to be triggering I am talking about sex now:

I am providing an example of what happened to me around the issue of stopping sex when you need to. Again this occurred in late stage recovery. I had already done a lot of work and was pretty good at avoiding situations that pushed my boundaries or made me feel uncomfortable. But I was trying something new and the man I was dating also wanted to try something new during dating and sex. We were waiting to have anal intercourse under the premises that it should occur after a closer emotional connection. This was more his issue than mine. But since I tend to check out or distance myself during sex I wanted use this experience to see if by allowing my emotional connection to this man to increase if I would experience anal intercourse with him in a different way than I had in the past.

What happened is that while we were having sex; things progressed as will happen and we both got caught up in the moment and we broke that boundary. Without discussing it or asking permission he was inside me. No he did not force me but it triggered me. I felt violated and I go to rage when I feel that now. So without discussing it we switched places with a lot of force. Sex is intense. Feelings are exposed. Things happen. The situation was escalating both on the emotional side and the sexual side and before I entered him I stopped myself and I stopped us. We had to talk.

The reason I had to stop was because I was about to enter him with only one thing in mind “you did this to me I am doing this to you”. It was payback pure and simple. I had left love, understanding and intimacy behind. I also knew that I soon as I stopped and we started talking I would have to deal with the real feelings that had been triggered, my feeling violated and vulnerable. I would so much rather be in the situation of saying “Oh Gee we both slipped. I got you got me. Fairs fair”. But you see when you start paying attention you can’t play that way you have stop as soon as you know it is time. So I stopped. And we talked and I had to tell him what I felt; all my feelings of vulnerability and feeling violated and my wanting to cause him to feel the same way. I had to listen to his feelings too. I had to let him say he was sorry and talk about what went on for him. This is how adults negotiate these things.

He did not violate me. He broke a mutually agreed upon boundary in a moment of passion, without discussing it. Passion is what occurs during sex. Sex with adults is about pushing boundaries and following our passions. But respecting boundaries yours and other peoples is also part being an adult and so is cleaning it up when a boundary is broken.

Point: You can stop sex at any time, period.

To do the kind of processing I did with this man required an already exciting emotional connection and commitment. You do not do this kind of processing with strangers or people you are not close to. You simply stop the behavior and do what you need to feel safe sometimes that is leave, sometimes it is simply behavior modification. I have found that it is easier to set boundaries in the beginning than to stop them when passions are high but it is always your right to stop when you feel uncomfortable.

If you are not maintaining your boundaries with strangers, then either the boundary is not important to you or you are setting yourself up for situations to feel violated and/or to feel justified in violating others and you have other issues to look at.

Another important issue for me in this experience was to realize this man had not intended to break our boundary on purpose and/or just to put in the subservient or bottom role (not a game I play). If that had been his reasons my reactions would have been different. Also a trust had been broken and trust had to be reestablished. He never pressed that boundary again and neither did I. If he had not proven to be trust worthy I would not have been able to believe his explanations and rightly so. I listen to what people say and then I watch what they do. It usually tells me who they really are.

You ask for what you want and need. Then you see what you get. Then make your the necessary choices or decisions.

I have to say here I also had to deal with resenting him for setting up a boundary that was more important him than to me and then breaking. I would never have felt violated if we hadn’t had the boundary in the first place; but again my stuff not his. Doesn’t that just suck and not in a good way.

I do not know if this is what this thread is for. I hope it is. My impression is that we are talking abut doing it differently about learning to be healthy with and during sex.

As they say where I come from “Take what you like and leave the rest”

Thanks for letting my share,

Scott

_________________________
You can't save your Ass and your Face at the same time. (Anonymous)

And given the choice I will save my ass first everytime(STC)

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#221184 - 04/28/08 06:03 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: Calanthe]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
Scott,
I want to thank you for you comment here. I agree with everything you said. That is a great example of how to have a healthy sexual relationship with some one. Trust must first be established, boundries laid out, and appropriate action taken during sex to ensure a good time is had by all.
Not communicating, accepting your boundries being crossed with out comment or action is playing the victim and I have done that all my life. Still do at times but I am getting more comfortable with stopping and talking. Before I never thought I could. I was there for sex so whatever the other person did was fine. That is not sex. That is being abused all over again. It is so easy for us to do that. Thanks for that Scott that was enlightening.


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#221186 - 04/28/08 06:19 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: ineffable]
GateKPR4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 955
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Originally Posted By: ineffable

Healthy Sexuality is defined as:

Adds to self esteem
Has no victims
Deepens meaning
Uses vulnerability for excitement
Cultivates sense of being adult
Furthers ones sense of self
Expands reality
Relies on safety
Is mutual & intimate
Takes responsibility for needs
May bring legitimate suffering
Originates in integrity
Presents challenges
Integrates most authentic parts of self
Is fun & playful
Accepts the imperfect

Still comfortable & consenting?


I have only had a couple healthy sexual relationships by using the guidelines above.
I remember them well and there was a feeling of oneness between us that was the most uplifting confident respecting loving trusting feeling we ever felt.
I have had many that have fallen short of almost every aspect on the list.

I'm single now and someday I will have to explore this area again I hope I make healthy choices for partners now that I have grown more confident in myself and know that I am human, I am not perfect, and I am true to myself. No longer do I need approval to feel human I am who I am and hope someday to find someone who will respect me and me them and once again share a healthy relationship emotionally & sexually.
Thank you for a most excellent topic.

_________________________
I'm a normal person dealing with abnormal experiences.
The greatest discoveries we will find within ourselves.
Ricky
__m_ô¿ô_m__
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#221378 - 04/29/08 11:29 AM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: ineffable]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2586
Originally Posted By: ineffable


Healthy Sexuality is defined as:

Adds to self esteem
Has no victims
Deepens meaning
Uses vulnerability for excitement
Cultivates sense of being adult
Furthers ones sense of self
Expands reality
Relies on safety
Is mutual & intimate
Takes responsibility for needs
May bring legitimate suffering
Originates in integrity
Presents challenges
Integrates most authentic parts of self
Is fun & playful
Accepts the imperfect


Even without that list I recognize I've never come close to having real sex with anyone. Not even my wife. Keeping my eyes open during sex, dang that's hard. I've tried. I can do it, but then I can guarantee that I don't finish. Being in the present pretty much guarantees there is no end in sight for me. I've been "present" during sex with my wife a few times, and she can finish and all that, which is good for her, but once she's done, forget it, I'm ready to stop. I'm uncomfortable, awkward, weird, tense, nervous, you name it. My wife threw on a "Wife Beater T" last night when getting ready for bed. It was tight. Damn was she hot. I wanted her, but almost immediately after that thought I realized what that would mean, and then forget it, I didn't want it. I mean I did, but I didn't want all that tense nervous crap, so I was more than fine letting it go.

No clue how to fix all this. Would be nice. Barring that, you can take the desire away and I'll be more than fine with that at this point. Right now, sex is not fun. Before now, sex was about getting off, not about fun or intimacy.


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#221385 - 04/29/08 11:39 AM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: JustScott]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
I'm not one to talk about healthy sexuality obviously but maybe being intimate without it ending in sex might be good place to start Scott. Hugging, holding, kissing. If you know for a fact it wont end in sex it might go a long way in getting you used to being more intimate. Tell her up front it's not going to end in sex.

_________________________
Thriving

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#221388 - 04/29/08 11:50 AM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: JustScott]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
Scott I think that when you feel your WIFE wants sex or you are getting into a situation where sex is going to be REQUIRED of you it is a major turn off. You are in abuse mode. That is what you felt when your abuser came on to you or you know you were going into a situation where you would going to be asked to PERFORM.
I think that when it was your idea or you could initiate it or even seduce your wife into it even if she didn't want it you felt the power and control and it was ok.

Now that she wants it from you it is a different matter. You are feeling exactly like you felt when you abuser WANTED it from you and you knew there was no way out so you would allow it and allow yourself to enjoy it.

In order to get back to healthy sex for you and your wife the dynamics of how it is initiated are probably going to have to change. Just a thought but that is how Patti and I had to change it around. When she takes my hand and puts it on her breast I flash back to dad taking my hand. That kind of freezes me up when she does that but we can talk and work out some other things. Dad and I never talked during sex so if Patti and I can that helps.



Edited by Freedom49 (04/29/08 11:55 AM)

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#221404 - 04/29/08 12:44 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: Freedom49]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2586
Originally Posted By: Mogigo

I'm not one to talk about healthy sexuality obviously but maybe being intimate without it ending in sex might be good place to start Scott. Hugging, holding, kissing. If you know for a fact it wont end in sex it might go a long way in getting you used to being more intimate. Tell her up front it's not going to end in sex.

I love all the stuff leading up to sex. Cuddling is one of my favorite pastimes. Even being completely naked while cuddling is great (I prefer is actually). I love all the touching, caressing etc, but that actual act of sex is all messed up. I can try the no sex thing and see how it goes though. Guess we'll see.

Originally Posted By: Freedom49

the dynamics of how it is initiated are probably going to have to change.

Dad and I never talked during sex so if Patti and I can that helps.


Yes, dynamics are important. My wife has gotten pretty good at telling when I'm having issues and also can feel how tense I am and she does what she can to help me relax.

We do actually talk during sex now. Before, forget it. Any distractions. Tv being on, talking, noise, anything and there was no way I could continue. Guess at the time I needed complete and total concentration in order to keep my mind away from the present. At least that much has changed. I don't lose it when I'm in the present. Guess that is a positive step to reclaiming this healthy sex stuff. It also helps me realize that I had to work extremely hard at sex before, and it's not supposed to be hard right? It's supposed to be fun and exciting, not work.

Kinda feels good to realize that I am making some progress. Maybe I don't just want it all to go away.


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#223081 - 05/07/08 04:24 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: JustScott]
ineffable Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
Scott, you mentioned that you & your wife talk during sex now

A question if I may...
Do you use each others names?
(I know there are fears about calling out the wrong one in the heat of the moment)

The reason I ask is because of a connection I am making for myself while snailing thru the book "Sexual Anorexia" that had to do with
objectification & also being stuck on the experience of the sexual act rather than the connection to my partner

The twist & the difficulties I have experienced being intimate & present made sense BIGTIME considering
my & probably most of our sexual "initiation" for want of a better term
If I or my partner remain objects & I concentrate specifically on the act I am "good to go"
Calanthe mentioned previously he made it a habit to get & use his partner's name
Looking back for myself I see that I almost never used their names or if I was vocal it was always some generic term
If my partner used my name I was almost instantly off in some other galaxy
"Acting out" anonymously always worked because it was objectified & experiential 100% of the time with "no surprises"

I hope this dialogue continues

C



_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


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#223102 - 05/07/08 06:22 PM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: ineffable]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
Craig,
I can relate to that. If it was just hit and run sex I had no problems. It was just all about getting off and hoping I was good. When I was first with a new partner some one whose name I acutally knew, we were good to go and it was great for a few times. Then it started to become expected, then uncomfortable, then finally, work. They knew me now and I knew them. No more discovery of something new. I now knew the "object" and "object" knew me. Now we enter in to "relationship". Something I did not do real well. That is when sex no longer became fun for me. I did it because I was in a relationship now and that is now required.

When I married Patti my head was so screwed up about sex that I messed bad the first few years. She hung in there and we are doing much better. I understand about the gift of her body that she gives to me and I try to honor that and love her up real good. I try to stay in the moment and be there with her giving her feed back and my full attention. It takes longer and that is not always bad. We are getting to know each other in a more intimate way on several levels.


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#223203 - 05/08/08 08:16 AM Re: Recovering Healthy Sexuality [Re: Freedom49]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2586
I can't say that my wife and I use each others name all that often. If I think about the few times she has, it did seem like quite a jolt. I'll have to give this all some thought. I'd love to get some good recovery going in this area, it just scares the crap out of me.


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