Before you go any further

This is a thread about sex
Between consenting adults

By participating you are consenting to:

Be comfortable talking about sex

Take off your shoes & socks
Loosen your tie
Put on yer turkey pants
Smoke 'em if ya got 'em

Check all genders, positions, religious persuasions & morality at the door

There are other threads about love vs lust etc
Is your perspective better suited there?

Before you hit submit to review your post

Does it end shame neutral?
If you are working something out for yourself, press on
If you are judging or preaching, then really personalize it
Start your own thread
Zero tolerance for any "new/old" shame here

Do you need to be graphic or fetish specific to make your point?
Take the theme of intimacy or vulnerability or control & personalize it
Start yer own black leather kitchen utensils feather boa thread

This thread is about keeping your eyes open sex
Because you are connected to your partner, not watching porn at the same time
It is about keeping your eyes closed sex
Because you are in the heat of the moment, not imagining Jewel or Colin Farrel

Let's begin

From a book I am reading

Healthy Sexuality is defined as:

Adds to self esteem
Has no victims
Deepens meaning
Uses vulnerability for excitement
Cultivates sense of being adult
Furthers ones sense of self
Expands reality
Relies on safety
Is mutual & intimate
Takes responsibility for needs
May bring legitimate suffering
Originates in integrity
Presents challenges
Integrates most authentic parts of self
Is fun & playful
Accepts the imperfect

Still comfortable & consenting?

Craig, I think this is an excellent topic. To me sex was totally messed up in my head. I had no idea what good sex was or what it was supposed to do other and make me feel good and get her pregnant. not necesarily in that order either. I somehow got it into my head that sex was what happeded to me as a kid and what I did with other men and women as an adult. 50 years later I am learning differently. I am glad we can talk about this and I like your disclaimer post too.

I found that when I was faced with the possibility of sex I would usually either fantasize in my mind about someone else or some other situation in order to go with it. Once done I was relieved it was over and just wanted to get away mentally. Kind of like when I was being abused.

I have discovered that I can stay in the moment. Enjoy the other person and think and talk about what makes them feel good and how we can work together for a really pleasurable experience.

I had to re-train myself to do that. It was not easy. But I found it was definately worth it. It took both of us and cooperation with each other to do that. It was a whole new experience. It didn't work everytime but it was fun trying. I am much more comfortable with sex and talking about it which I could not do before. I would just freeze up.

Thanks again Craig for this post.

Hi Roger
Thanks for the encouragement & your post to get the dialogue going
I realized for myself through a different thread that I believed my abuse = sex
Now being able to see that error in my thinking is a good start towards healthy sex

I also haven't had a real strong sense of body presence for want of a better term
(tend to be "in my head" a lot)
Lately I have been doing a lot of yoga, stretching & meditation on body awareness
Feeling the "aliveness" of my hands, feet, etc

I haven't had a partner for a very long time but I look forward to exploring this further with
someone I care about because I also have a tendency to "go away" during sex
I believe having increased body awareness may help keep me grounded

Kinda like "expanding on reality" from that list in my first post

Hey Craig,

Thanks for this post. I think it is an important issue and I will be interested in what comes form it. But I really want to add another disclaimer here. Yeah I know maybe I should have Robbie Brown write it (see Off Topic Forum, US Navy Mans Two Nuclear Subs with Women) but it is based on my experience and it is my disclaimer so I will just wing it.

Disclaimer: Integrating Healthy Sex into your life is a late stage recovery issue. If you have not dealt with the early recovery issues this should not be a priority. For one simple fact you are not ready for it. If you cannot have sex unless you are loaded or drunk healthy sex is not a priority. If you cannot speak to or integrate your multiple personalities, again integrating healthy sex is not the priority. If you have not treated your depression or the nightmare of your abuse is still running your life worrying about whether or not you are have healthy sex is a misdirection of your recovery. I am not saying you will not gain something from this thread or that you should not contribute but some of what is said here will simply not make since even if you think you understand the words that are being used and you will not be able to apply them as intended. If you think you fall into this category I would suggest you PM the person who’s advice you want to follow and see if they can adapt the information for your position.

Here is an example of what I am talking about. I entered sexual recovery 21 years ago. When I came into the rooms I was shut down and out of touch with myself and the world around me. I used sex to accomplish this. I had multiple anonymous sexually encounters on a daily basis to maintain my distance from the world and myself.

One of the first things my sponsor talked to me about was staying present during sex and I was like are you kidding I am present how much more present can be I am having sex. But the truth was I was not anywhere near present during sex, regardless of where my body was, I wasn’t on the same planet with the person. I was so checked out I preferred that no one talked before, after and during…I mean why spoil the magic of the moment.

After about 18 months of trying and failing to even moderate my behavior my sponsor said “OK pumpkin, we are going to make this as simple for you as we can you need to get the name of everybody you have sex with. Only the first name and you can get it anytime during your encounter but you have to get it.”

This is where I had to start so that I could learn to be present during sex. Because even though I heard the words and knew I was not doing what they said I did not have tools or healing to apply the simple instruction of being present during sex. I had to learn it in baby steps: i.e. ask their name, give them my name (see that was not part of the deal to begin with I did not have to give my name, just get theirs), open my eyes see who I was with, here is a big scary step look in their eyes (it took years to do that) and another one that took a lot more recovery and healing on my part was to thank them for sharing their body with me. Do you realize I had to practice this in private….say thank you to the mirror before I could say thank you to a person. This was not a baby step this was way down the road and I mean years down the road of my recovery.

So what I am say to people in new recovery is ask questions and take it slow and clear up the other stuff first. Remember integrating healthy sex is not your priority, it may be your goal but it is not what you need to focus on in early recovery from sexual abuse.

If you want to start on this path start checking in with yourself about what you do during sex? How it feels to you etc. etc. and if you ask for direction from someone be honest about where you are at. No one can help you if you don’t tell them the truth.

That my disclaimer for this thread. So as they say “Let the Games Begin”

Scott

Scott, I can so relate to that. Sadly I can relate all to well. I had not T and no one to guide me but my instincts were that something was not right. I started trying to connect too at some point.
I think that is excellent advice. New to recovery he is right this should not be your goal right now. Get over this abuse, the pain the hurt and the anger. Then start healing the symptoms. Thank you Scott for that excellent advice. I tried it backwards and it not only failed but it hurt some really nice people.

Scott

Thanks for your post & your input
Yes I agree with you that this is a later stage recovery issue that needs to be addressed
Some of the men here are ready & the newer folk can benefit from seeing what lies ahead
& how some of us are dealing with recovering healthy sexuality through open & shame free dialogue

From the insight you have already shared, I really hope you contribute regularly to this thread
In an ideal world, there would be a sex therapist (perhaps from the Professional side)
that would be willing to add a post or 2

Roger

Your candor on every topic is always most welcome

C

I'll throw my hat in ring. I'm the really good looking guy thats funny and charming, and flirts with all the ladies. All of whom are shocked that I'm still a virgin. I've had oppurtunities, but frankly I am extremly terrified of sex. When it comes to physical intimacy, I hate it, its so shame and guilt riddled. But I am still in the very early stages of recovery, and it isn't my priority. It is just a nagging aspect of life. I could go into physical intimacy issues, but I'm tired haha.

Whoops... stepped on someone's hat
Thanks for posting

For me the opportunities are there too
On a superficial level only
I decided I want to "like" who I am with, which takes time & willingness
My recent experiences have been with those that don't want to be that well known
Or who have felt that my wanting to know them meant bells-would-be-a-ringing
Intimacy... it is complex

C

ps... the "I'm tired" comment will come in handy later in yer life too

Hahaha, your post cracks me up C. Yeah I'm the same plenty of superficial oppurtunities, even more on the horizon. I want to like myself, but when the opposite has been beat in my head for close to 19 years. I think my biggest issue is I want to feel in control, I'm not talking domination play or handcuffing and ordering my partner (although I would probably enjoy that) I just need to feel secure, like I can stop it at anytime. Unfortunatly I can't...um...finish... unless I feel that completly secure with who I am and whats going on. Which is usually never, because once every few months am I secure hahaha.

I'd like to throw in just a brief comment: abuse ended for me at age 14, by which time I had concluded that sex is something that grownups do to a boy to hurt and shame him.

Sound familiar anyone?

And we wonder why we have difficulties ....

Much love,
Larry