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#217581 - 04/12/08 02:24 PM Did I make it up...
dannym Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 543
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Been thinking about it. I know I was abused by my first perp when I was five... but what if I was the one that instigated the second, long term abuse.... He was older by 4 years, but did I do something, based on what I was "taught" by my first perp, that precipitated the first encounder with my second "perp"... I never inititated that I remember, but did he perceive my silent willingness to have sex as consent? Did an 8 year old seduce the 12 year old? Am i just using this site to mask the fact taht I was a perp... is that possible? Am I just rationalizing my own deprvity?

sorry... these thoughts keep coming.. don't know where else to put them... need them out of my head - they feel too heavy, like my neck can't support my head with them in there...

dan



Edited by dannym (04/12/08 02:25 PM)
_________________________
"You should listen to your heart, and not the voices in your head."

Marge Simpson

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#217584 - 04/12/08 02:33 PM Re: Did I make it up... [Re: dannym]
Bewlayb1 Offline
Guest

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 241
Loc: NYC
An eight year old can't "seduce" anyone. I, personally, have no doubt that the source of this tragedy was a warped adult, perhaps even from the twelve-year-old's past.

When I was abused, at eight, I had no idea what sex was. I wouldn't have learned until much later if an adult hadn't introduced it to me, and thus ruined sex and devastated my life forever.

Don't even think that you are to blame.


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#217585 - 04/12/08 02:33 PM Re: Did I make it up... [Re: dannym]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2573
My 4th perp was 12 when I was 8. I had already been messed up, but no, a 12 year old should know far better than an 8 year old. No matter what came before it didn't make it right for the 12 year old to take advantage of what had precipitated that abuse in your life. You're not a perp.


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#217614 - 04/12/08 05:00 PM Re: Did I make it up... [Re: JustScott]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Dan,

No, not under any circumstances can it be possible that the 8 yo seduced the 12 yo. An 8 yo would have reacted to earlier abuse with confusion, fear, shame and so on, and I can imagine that he might mimic some of the behaviors that he remembered from before. But that would be out of confusion and an effort to make sense of things. I just cannot imagine an 8 yo seducing a boy 4 years his senior.

Now it may be that that the 12 yo did not really understand what was going on either, but that's a different question. I would be prepared to bet any amount of money someone wants to lose that no therapist would look at a sexual liaison between an 8 yo and a 12 yo and conclude that the younger boy had seduced the older one.

But Dan, what's especially important here is that you are willing to see things this way, I mean, as if you were somehow to blame. That's the old fears and false feelings talking, my friend. Please do rest assured that while it's crucial to talk about these feelings in therapy, they are absolutely baseless. What happened to you was not your fault, never and not in any way.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#217617 - 04/12/08 05:15 PM Re: Did I make it up... [Re: dannym]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: roadrunner
What happened to you was not your fault, never and not in any way.

Yeah - what he said. NOT your fault - never - not in any way.

Originally Posted By: dannym
sorry... these thoughts keep coming.. don't know where else to put them... need them out of my head - they feel too heavy, like my neck can't support my head with them in there...

No need to apologize my friend. It's why we're here - to share each other's burdens and help through the muck and mire.

Breathe, Dan. And remember - you're a GOOD person and did NOT cause your own abuse.

M


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#217766 - 04/13/08 09:04 AM Re: Did I make it up... [Re: MarkK]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1963
Loc: durham, north england
I'm really sad your thinking this way Dan. As the other chaps here have said, there's no way it was your fault at age eight, and the twelve year old should've indeed known better, I'd imagine he certainly wouldn't known what he was doing to you was wrong and was hurting you if nothing else, he was just so twisted in perception that he couldn't recognize or care.

Please remember what it says on the front of this site about power.

I really hhope sharing your thoughts here has helped you and that you can feel better about yourself.

Luke.


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#217777 - 04/13/08 09:31 AM Re: Did I make it up... [Re: dark empathy]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6397
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
Dan,
I looked at my own son when he was 8 and is now 9. I look at the neighbor kids who he plays street ball with on occasion. Some are 4 years older. Trust me here....NO 12 yo is going to follow an 8 yo's lead on sexual behavior or any other behavior. There's too great an age, experience and maturity gap.

Remember..YOU do not know what your second perp was truly thinking. Dont try to read his mind (30 years ago). You can probably barely remember what YOU were thinking 30 years ago.

Your silence back then may have been driven by many things. Don't label it with only one possible element. You could have been scared, you may have really wanted an older friend and he seduced you into things...No matter what, he knew what he had to work with in you and used it to his advantaqe.

If you want a more solid indicator of what and who you are, look at your behavior and experiencees since then and today. Look at yourself today Dan!

_________________________
Wish You Were Here!

The Aftermath Video

The Water Buffalo Song

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#217778 - 04/13/08 09:31 AM Re: Did I make it up... [Re: dark empathy]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Hey DannyM how ya doing?

You said "I never inititated that I remember, but did he perceive my silent willingness to have sex as consent?"

Irrelevant. He had sex with you. That's the issue. I suspect he would interpret many things as consent.

You said "Did an 8 year old seduce the 12 year old?"

Irrelevant. He had sex with you.

You said "Am i just using this site to mask the fact taht I was a perp... is that possible? Am I just rationalizing my own deprvity?"

I don't know. You might 'feel' like a perpetrator but if you were 8 years old at the time and the other was older, I would say you can let yourself off the hook for behaviors while just a child. As far as adult behavior I expect if you're posting here you are clean of adult offences.

Look, man, the reason I'm being abrupt in my replies above, and saying 'irrelevant' is because I'm seeing in you something that I myself worried about, namely, because my perpetrator was family, my Father, I denied for years that he'd abused me even though I could see his face and hear his voice all surrounding an image that was clearly illegal, immoral, abusive and wrong. What I denied was that he could do such a thing, after all, he's family and the repercussions are enormous. So Robbie's post above about the fear and other feelings is spot on.

What you're doing is not horrible or anything, and since I assume and expect you're not an adult perpetrator, it's my opinion that yours is just denial and you're turning it onto yourself.




Edited by hogan_dawg (04/13/08 09:34 AM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#217779 - 04/13/08 09:34 AM Re: Did I make it up... [Re: dark empathy]
dannym Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 543
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Thank you guys.... so very much.

Luke, my brain goes so many directions it is frightening. It is something I have dealt with for many, many years. I am just learning that to let those thoughts out can be healing for me. It helps me get them out of my head - to drag them out into the light - and it is because of you guys that I can do that without being afraid of being rejected.

I KNOW I wasn't to blame, but the little, needling voices in my head, the ones that say "But what IF..." get loud sometimes and I now know that if I get them out and share them with you all, they are revealed for what they are, misconceptions and irrational fears based on years of keeping these secrets hidden inside me.

My 2nd perp knew exaclty what he was doing... he was using me as a blow up doll - that's what I was when it was happening. He was my friend, and although he was a screwed up kid most of the time, when we had sex it was very dark, secret and dirty... like a itch that had to be scratched for him. I don't think he wanted to hurt me, but he didn't care about how it might affect me... that is for certain.

Thanks again, you all - I am sort of going on a new path with my recovery - I made a huge step 2 weeks ago that will hopefully allow me to focus more on these issues... so be aware = some crazy shit is coming your way - Direct from the recesses of my brain!!!! \:\)

love
Dan

PS, I'm breathing, Mark - thanks for the reminder!

_________________________
"You should listen to your heart, and not the voices in your head."

Marge Simpson

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#217781 - 04/13/08 09:38 AM Re: Did I make it up... [Re: dannym]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Yeah you're on the right track.

It's a tough track!

Your words "like an itch that had to be scratched" is so true - it's sort of like an addiction for perpetrators, I surmise. I suspect that for my perpetrator, based on the readings I've done to date, he was cycling in his abuse patterns just like an addict binges.

What if, what if...what if, at 8 years old, you had an excellent right hook and left cross combination? \:\)

Crazy stuff happens with this CSA stuff, I've found. It's a totally crazy subject anyway! Like, how crazy is it that we're even here discussing it? That's koo koo. \:\) But the cause is not of our making and that's the part I always have to remind myself about.



Edited by hogan_dawg (04/13/08 09:42 AM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#217865 - 04/13/08 06:28 PM Re: Did I make it up... [Re: dannym]
fanoflife Offline
New Here

Registered: 04/06/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Las Vegas
Holy cow! Did I write that or did you? That is exactly my timeline and my curiousity in regards to my abuse(5 and 8 and instigating the abuse the second time around). That was waaaaay too much for us to think about at that age. We probably just wanted to go outside and play or watch our favorite tv program, not instigate and initiate sex. We were tampered with, no questions about that. Peace, Art.

_________________________
I am a gay 40 year old male that is highly functional, but just came to terms with the fact that I was sexually abused at 5 and 8 and raped at 18. As a result, I have been acting out sexually ever since I can remember and just recently it ended a 3 year loving relationship.

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#218502 - 04/16/08 08:52 AM Re: Did I make it up... [Re: hogan_dawg]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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