I THINK I"M GOING TO BE SICK

IF ...IF...IF there was a god why would he allow such horror and catastrophic tragedies go on and on and on and on in this world and yet nothing whatsoever is done until........until it's to late then "you" hear the famous line " i didn't see that or this coming"

Give me a break....i'm not so sure anymore if there is a god i am to fuckin pissed at him right now and have been for awhile although i do have my days that i think i believe yet i have other days X happens and i revert back to survival of self.

Who knows maybe this is one of "those" days.


Coop

PS: please dont tell me now i am not entitled to my opinion or have the choice to use my voice.

Well, if there is no God, then how can one be angry with what is not there?

My question also.

VN

"If there was a god why would he allow such horror and catastrophic tragedies go on..."

Classic question because if God is all knowing and all seeing and all powerful, how could he allow such sin to exist?

One unsatisfying answer: It's not in our wisdom to understand God, as God is divine perfection. The evil done to us is not the creation of a divine and perfect God. It is the creation of evil.

Seems like if you don't believe it is "not in your wisdom" but if you do believe, you have all kinds of "wisdom" about what God is and what he thinks and so forth.

Oh, wait, that's not wisdom, though, that's called faith. But is it really faith in a spiritual entity or is it faith in other humans who are supposed to be closer to God than we? (Otherwise called "prophets" ...those through whom God favored above others enough to grant divine vision/inspiration.)

I guess when it comes right down to it, I have no faith at all because all of my beliefs are somehow based on logic and/or experience...even my belief in what I can't hope to fully understand.

How is someone like me who owes all I have and rely on to logic and experience supposed to abandon those things in favor of unquestioning trust which has so far only got me raped, used and conned?

Are these unfair questions? I know I trust in things every day that I have no real understanding of, but only because logic and experience has shown me that those things are reliable.

Seems to me as if the concept of faith is the idea of saying that everything the world we live in tells us about reality is not to be trusted, but that so called "profits" and others who are supposed to have had "divine revelation" are to be trusted.

So it's basically saying that the universe is wrong but a select elite of humans are right. (Keep in mind here that I am not only speaking of exoteric Christianity, but of all supposedly "divinely inspired" religions, so I'm not picking on anyone.)

Of course, obviously, my mind is made up on the matter---my involvement here is not to promote my beliefs or discount other's beliefs, but to make those here who feel as I do feel like they too are being heard by those of the same mind as themselves. It isn't just the religious who need fellowship and sense of community.


As for how you can be angry at a God you don't believe in, I agree that you can't. If you believe you are angry with God, then you believe in God...and if you believe in the a God that judges and condemns for not abandoning rationality and experience in favor of what I can only see as irrationality, (faith), then I don't blame you for being angry.

The idea of a Kingdom of Heaven, where we will all be subjects to a benevolent God, is actually somewhat replusive to me now. I can't seem to grasp that we exist just to serve an almighty Creator, like we are marionettes in His own private puppet show. I'd much rather think of myself as an independent being. And if, per chance, I'm wrong, then I'm at no great disadvantage, I don't believe; as I find the idea of voluntarily subjecting myself to an eternity of subservience to a God that demands obedience in all things, besides being very unattractive, to be somewhat contrary to what He has ostensibly endowed me with, which is that sense of independence. And if such a God would banish me to Hell for such superior thoughts, for thoughts He has suppodedly given me , well, so be it then... but I don't think this will be the case, as I think the chances are good that God and Heaven (and likewise Hell and the Devil) don't really exist.

Interesting perspective Darren. I have come to a slightly different conclusion. Perhaps erroneosly but I believe that God does not in fact want mindless sbuservience.

I agree with you that he gave us independance of mind and thought. I think he wants us to have more of a father son relaionship with him. That was a tough one for me to come to given that my earthly Father was a VERY poor example of that. But in studying and reading some of CS Lewis's writings I think I understand where God might have been going.

He gives us our intelligence and will, and an internal code of behavior (knowlege of right and wrong), and asks us, of our own free will to follow it and be the best we can be.

It was a gamble. There are many whom he knew would say forget that I will do what I want to do and what will make me happy. But he knew there would be some that would eventually see the wisdom of those codes and follow them with the faith that there was a purpose and a reward for eventually doing so. Here with health and long life, and after we die with a place in his world and his home.

One of those many rewards is a relationship and fellowship with the Father God himself right here and now. I believe those will be the ones when they die that will be going "home" to be with DAD. Those who reject his code and live only to please themselves will be left to themselves. They themselves reject "home" as a place that they would not be comfortable in at all.

It is somewhat more complicated than what I have mentioned here in reality but for the sake of discussion that is pretty much how I understand the basics if it. In my opinion.

Post deleted by awakening

I respectfully disagree, Gregory. I do not cheat. I try not to lie. I try not to hurt. I do not believe in God. I believe in being kind and peaceful because it makes for a better world... and since I do not believe in an afterlife, I want this world to be the best place it can be.

I do not believe in God... and EVERYTHING matters because I believe in me and making a positive difference in the lives of each person I meet... I don't need the reward of eternal bliss or the threat of eternal damnation... I do it because it feels good... I like love better than hate.

Hope I did not offend. I celebrate everyone's beliefs as personal and very sacred - these are just mine.

love
Dan

Dan,

I see no offense at all. You were being honest about where you stand without singling out a particular group.

Andy

Well said Dan. I can only hope that as I work on my feelings about religion, I too can learn to state my positions without giving cause for offense. I did my best on that post back there, but there was my bitter feelings toward religion again oozing out all over it. I don't like being that way and am trying not to..for whatever that's worth.

Isaiah 45:5-7

I am the Eternal; nothing else exists.
There is no god other than Me.
I gird you with strength even though you have not known Me
That they may know that from the rising of the sun to its setting
There is nothing besides me.
I am the Eternal; nothing else exists.
I form light and I create darkness,
I make peace and create evil --
I the Eternal do all these things.

I think most of our problems with religion don't have so much to do with God per se as with what we expect God to be. Many of us are raised with this notion of God as a combination of Superman and Santa Claus, and of course the age-old question is "Why do bad things happen to good people" or -- better -- "Why are innocent kids victimized and abused?" and "Why doesn't God do anything to stop it?"

I don't believe that God does or can intervene in human affairs like that. I don't believe in a personal God that watches over all things and decides whom He's going to save and whom He's going to let perish, and so forth. I don't think God saves people from fires and earthquakes and muggings and other disasters -- because then that opens the question of who causes those disasters in the first place?

One of my favorite theologians definied God as "the force that makes for salvation," the collective of those qualities in the universe that allow human life to be most fully human.

God couldn't stop the perps and save us from abuse, but God is what helps us heal and overcome the damage that was done to us. God is every person on the forum. The argument may be that doesn't this mean that God only exists in the imagination? Maybe, but does that make it any less real?

Just my $0.02.

Jews kinda learned the hard way not to expect miraculous Divine deliverance from on high.

I find the concept many people have of what they call "God" is not different at all from what I believe in...I just choose not to call what I believe in "God" because of my feelings about the word and all I associate it with.

I remember trying to go to church years ago in an effort to find some sort of spiritual community and make friends even though my beliefs were different because I felt like the differences weren't all that important. It was a Lutheran church. Problem was I found that part of the service was to recite some ...I don't know what the proper word is..recital in which everyone states out loud all of the exact things that I didn't believe in as a kind of affirmation of their faith.

I was uncomfortable there to begin with, but that just put me over the edge. Since then I have only been in churches for weddings and funerals. A lot of people don't seem to have that problem though. They go to church, sing the hymns and all that even though their own beliefs make all that pretty much meaningless ritual to them.

I just can't do it. I don't feel true to myself going through motions like that. I'll admit though, I love the sound of black gospel and some churches have good enough choirs to almost lure me in just for the music.

I think you're talking about the Creed: "We believe in God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth etc."

I can certainly sympathize. One I was old enough to think for myself, I just can't abide being given a set of propositions that I must believe to fit in. I'm glad that Judaism doesn't really have any kind of formal creed or required beliefs. It's only been in the past 4-5 years or so that I've become more "religious" to a degree that I'm comfortable with; the rituals and practices give me the sense of meaning, structure, and connection that I need while leaving me free to explore my actual beliefs on my own terms.

Another somewhat, unsatisfying answer. Perhaps there is a big plan for all of us. I can't recall anyone who has done good in this world that has not had to struggle immensely. Our lives have been riddled with pain. No matter whether you've went through CSA or not. Now, we have had some "God" aweful demons to fight in our time. Perhaps its a test to see how strong we are and how good we are inside. I don't know. Just an idea. All I know is that, after learning to survive these aweful things that have happened to me (CSA), I've found myself feeling more whole and more loving towards others. I have went out of my way more for myself, thus allowing me to love myself. Once you love yourself, you begin to feel more compassion for others. Yea, I'm sure you've heard the same rhetoric over and over again but it seemed to be true in my case.


I know you're pissed and this may not be what you want to hear right now. It's going to take time to get all of that anger out.

In my case, I thought I just had anger for the abuser, but, in fact, deep down, I was mad at my mother for not protecting me and neglecting me when I needed help the most. I was mad at my brothers for suspecting something and not doing anything about my abuse. I was mad at my father for dying before this happened and not protecting me. After it was his friend growing up that abused me. "I was mad at my father for dying before this happened and not protecting me", sounds irrational but if you feel anger, it needs to be expressed because it 'IS' there for a reason. Next, I turned my anger to God. Spending hours cursing him and asking him "why?". I told him I hated him and to leave me to die alone and if I was going to hell, then so be it. I separated myself from what I called God for a long time. It may sound strange to some, but my conclusion to my anger, was that, I treated the concept of God, whether he exists or not, like he was just another one of the people that were on my "shitlist" that I had to face and vent my anger out on. Anger that was well deserved.

I hope this may have helped a bit. Stay strong coop. Sometimes, if you gotta say "f--k'em", say "f--k'em". Be pissed for as long as you want. You, and only you, know when it's time to let the anger go.

Good luck!
Jason

http://godisimaginary.com/i10.htm

just a thought..

Take good care,

GW

Yeah that's the word I was looking for. The Creed. Take that out, replace the hymn singing with some hand clapping finger snapping, James Brown style black gospel,..maybe take half an hour off the sermon, and you got a church I might just check out.

I don't know much about Judaism but all I've heard so far has given me a fairly favorable impression.

The problem with sites and books like that is that they only seem interested in trying to prove that the fundementalist Christian god is imaginary. Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins seem to only be able to focus on that "straw god," too.

I agree with most of the arguments on that site (some of them I think are pretty weakly stated), yet I still believe in "God."

I guess it depends on what that word, "God," means.

Nonetheless, we have our share of fundamentalist crazies. We even, unfortunately, have had some clerical perps -- there was rabbi in Brooklyn just recently accused of molesting two young boys.

By a strange coincidence, the perps seem concentrated among the fundamentalist crazies....

...I'm not saying anything, but it does make one wonder...

passover
pillar of fire
parting of the red sea
walls of Jericho
manna from heaven
Elijah and the prophets of Baal (lightening from heaven)
sun standing still

...

just thinking outloud

No, you're right. It's just a pity none of those really cool Cecil B. DeMille-sque type things have happened lately, say 70 years ago or so...

i dunno
to me May 14, 1948 was rather impressive

but i guess i quit looking for Cecil B DeMille type things and started listening for the "still, small voice".

m

I hear you, and I agree to a point, but the boxcars, gas chambers, and crematoria are pretty hard to overlook.

Hi Coop
I read with interst your question about God. I have had a hard time with that at times also. For me and I can not speak for any one else...I do believe in God and all of his glory. I belive the word of God (bible) is his own words..As I read I see the hope of a new life. I have seen his power in action when no one could explain ie how my son layed in a comb for 6 months and woke up to live a nomal life..
All I know is that God is love and he loves us very much. the fact we went through what we did I dont understand, saying that I have been able to touch kids because I have been through it and help them survive. so maybe there is something in that.
You did bring up a very good question and thank you for that.
Gary

I'M CURIOUS AS TO WHY IS IT THAT A POST I POSTED AND STARTED GO FROM FEW REPLIES TO AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT MATTER AND RAMBLE SESSION AND ALTOGETHER IN AN ENTIRELY TWISTED DIRECTION.........

BY THE WAY DON'T GIVE ME THIS " THIS SITE IS FOR WHOEVER WANTS TO POST AND YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THAT"........

I COULD CARE LESS....I DO HOWEVER LIKE THE IDEA I CERTAINLY OPENED UP A CAN OF WORMS AND YOU WONDER WHY I HAVE SOOOOOO MANY ISSUES WITH ......GOD.

COOP

After growing up in the Baptist Church... and after my abuse.. I have a hard time with a "Christian" god. I want to believe there is a God... but if I believe the bible, then God doesn't give a shit about me. Maybe he was too busy granting someone eles prayers for a raise, a new car, a new house, job, etc... to hear the pleas of an 11 year old boy. A boy that was SCREAMING for god to save him from what was happening. TOO BUSY!!!

Take good care,

GW

.

As I said once before: If there had been a God the back half of the Titanic would have floated, and before the Carpathia got there, a divine wind would have come up, and a lot of the privleged cheaters in the lifeboats would have gone to the bottom of the lagoon, as atonement for their sins.

An awfully lot of very deserving people have prayed in vain over many years.

Don't want to rock the boat, so to speak, just want to show some support.

Mark

I believe and its only a belief. I do not want to offend anyone on this thread. That god and the devil are the same entity if they do exist. We are shaped in gods image and we can do great good and do evil at the same time.

I wonder if god has abandoned this world at left "his" flock to the wolves. Humans have corrupted the true word of god to their own ends. The bible is no longer the word of god. I have seen a rise in the hate preached by the church against homosexuals. Surely god would not allow this!! god is all loving.

Humans have become their own gods. I hear the christians at work talking about how HIV/AIDS is the wrath of god etc...

I say to them that surely god is not that cruel and that they are the ones who are truly lost.

It was back around 1970 when one of the big NYC magazines startled the entire Christian world with their "Is God Dead?" cover. And you are right, there has been a tremendous rise over many years in hatred of and fear of anyone who does not agree with or is different from the way the Christian right thinks. They have become more and more intolerant and outraged. It is like no one but them should have any freedom to make their own decisions. Our morals should be decided for us by the moral minority.

A few days ago on CNN, right after Heinz had pulled their ad, there was a discussion over their action. The one guy had a very good, professional, politically-correct, and sensitive arguement. But he got shouted down as is usual lately by another deeply-offended southern Christian who obviously thought that only southern Christians should be allowed to determine everyone else's morals for them. It is almost frightening how much hatred and intolerance is exhibited by the radical Christian right these days.

I know, an awful lot of seawater is in the bottom of the boat now. We better start bailing.

Mark

Hi Duncan,
I believe your on to something.

Hi blueshift,
I am at an age where I am looking back on my life for the first time.

I do believe in an afterlife with some kind of "higher spirits", because if I didn't then all the crap would be all there is. You have to believe there is more. I don't think there will be angels with harps or my old granny, but there will be peace and light and knowledge and none of this will matter. Find something bigger than you to believe it, it is the only thing saving my life.

Yes, there is a God.

But there is also a strong personal evil personality.

There is a battle on. Lots of us are the casualties.

This is the briefest outline of it.

If you like to read, try The Screwtape Letters by C. S. Lewis

Puffer

This may offend some people. I don't believe in God. It's so obvious to me that there's nothing out there. Each culture creates its own diety, to explain things it cannot understand, not only physical phenomena, but the wantonness and emotional complexities inherent in life.

I used to look down on religious people. I realized recently, actually from some of my posts here, that I am no different than they are. I'm twenty-six, and ever since the abuse, starting at eight, I've believed that love would save me. I'll find wholeness with love. I'll find the peace that's eluded me my entire life. Replace "Love" with "God," and I sound like a bona fide zealot.

The thing is, I still believe it! I cannot "deprogram" myself. It comforts me in my darkest hours. It gives me a reason to go on, and to be a better person.

So, to all you religious people out there, we can't let the issue be divisive. Everyone needs to believe in something, it justs manifests differently.

Hey Puffer;

Excellent book ("The Screwtape Letters"). C.S. Lewis wrote a second book to conclude the Screwtape Letters. It's entitled :
("Screwtape Proposes A Toast")

Is There A God ? I'm sure everybody has asked this to themselves; particularly those of us who are deeply wounded and struggling inside. Bewlayb1; have you ever read the biblical story of Job in the Old Testament ? It's worth the read. Perhaps it won't bring a cure all or answer all your troubling questions but I think there are a vast number of people in this world can easily identify.
with this story. Strangely; you don't have to be embroiled in a personal affliction to see that your not alone in this world.

Who sees God ? It certainly is not the proud and vainglory.
I'm only beginning to see that it is through the virtue of embracing humility that you see life with a new set of eyes that are better than the eyes seen through primitive flesh.
Humility is the key to all understanding beyond this primitive earthly concern.

coop,
that is a decision we each have to make for ourselves.
that is why HE gave us the freedom of choice.
HE wants us to love him and each other because we want to not because we have to.
GOD is love.
mike