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#217032 - 04/10/08 09:59 AM my greatest cripplers
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
rejection, abandonment, and humiliation. All three are MAJOR contributors to my depression, fear and inability to trust. i just wish knowing this made a big difference in things. it doesn't. my T says "in time" but how much "time"?? That, supposedly, depends on when i'm ready.

It almost feels like an easy out. My T can blame the devestating fear on me. "If i were ready, i could recover." That is just B.S. i'm sorry - i can't buy that any more.

i do the meditation practices. i write in my journal. and i'll admit there have been insights into myself that were interesting. but the fear is still here. the pain, the anguish, and the depression are still here. i still feel alone and helpless.

right now i just don't see HOW anyone is supposed to hold on until recovery truly makes a difference in their life. and maybe that's it. maybe others get there because of their own inner strength; and i just don't have the strength.

sometimes it just feels i should resolve myself to the fact i will never be happy, never have peace, and will always be alone. sure doesn't give a person much reason to get out of bed in the morning, does it? \:\(

m


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#217038 - 04/10/08 10:50 AM Re: my greatest cripplers [Re: MarkK]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
Mark,
I really care about you and I have been thinking about you a lot. I am beginning to wonder if you need a new T. All three of those things can be dealt with.

I have that unholy trinity also. My T and I worked with the rejection issue by some exercises in which I slowly put myself out in situations where I had a reasonable expectation of safety and did some volunteer work. I found that if I started actually doing something that people would approve of like helping my neighbors with their fence. Helping out at the community center for a few hours or just looking for things to help with around the hospital where I work.

I started feeling better about my self and the fear of rejection became manageable. I started doing things that I knew I had a low chance of rejection in and it boosted my self esteem to the point where perceived rejection was less of a threat. When a conflict came up, instead of immediately feeling rejected I was able to push through it and see the real issue and just deal with that.

Same thing with abandonment. The exercises were tougher there but still involved putting my self in relativly safe situations where I could risk that feeling and push through it to see the situation for what it really was and deal with the feeling to the point where I am more secure in my relationships and could probably handle one going south on me in a more realistic way.

The humiliation is a tough one. The shame busting we did at WoR helped there too. By being in a large group and feeling safe enough to behave stupidly, (sorry facilitators, just my perception), and just have fun really helped that a lot. But again, to sit and wait for the feeling to change in me is to wait forever. Feeling follows action. I had to do something relativly risky first before I could reduce the intensity of the feelings.

Again I think you need a better T who is willing to get in there and give you some practical things you can do to help address those feelings.

In my situation in my first marriage and in my life before my second marriage I had a lot of guilt and shame. That is because I was doing bad things, Betraying my wife, breaking my covenant vows, Lies, and deception. When I stopped doing those things the guilt associated with those things went way down and eventually went away. If i are doing something that is unacceptable or inappropriate it follows I will be rejected by those with higher morals and standards. If they then do not want to associate with me cause I am being a jerk, naturally I will feel abandoned and rightfully so. The humliation I felt at being shameful and my behavior unacceptable again was a painful but not unexpected consequence of all that. Again Feelings follow action.

I know this is a long winded way of saying get a new T huh? Sorry. I hope it somehow helps.


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#217064 - 04/10/08 01:27 PM Re: my greatest cripplers [Re: Freedom49]
Roofus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 233
Loc: Utah
Healing is certainly not an easy road.

Originally Posted By: MarkK
right now i just don't see HOW anyone is supposed to hold on until recovery truly makes a difference in their life. and maybe that's it. maybe others get there because of their own inner strength; and i just don't have the strength.


I am a Registered Nurse. Although I no longer work at the bedside as what one would define as a traditional nurse, I worked in the ICU for many many years. I was constantly amazed at the ability of the human body to heal. I can't tell you how many patients I had, that had suffered such extreme illness and injury, and how many times the nursing staff would comment on how shocked we were that someone was "still hanging on." Although I don't personally believe in God, I have seen miracles. I have seen the dead rise and walk again. I often asked myself... where do they find the strength to recover? Especially these people that we have so heavily sedated, or injury has caused them to be completely unaware. It's hard to say, but so many do.

I remember one little guy I was taking care of. 32 year old guy, married with 3 very small children. He had been in a serious car accident, suffered multiple injuries, was severely septic. I don't need to give you the dirty details, but he was one of those patients that all of the nurses kept saying they couldn't believe he was still alive.

Every evening his wife would come into the ICU. I often times walked in the room to find her holding his hand and wispering in his ears (he was completely unconscious and non-responsive). She would sometimes hold her babies up, and have them talk to him. He spent 9 months in the ICU, we coded him 12 times (that I remember). He walked out of that ICU. Of course his recovery took many years, and he still suffers from the many scars that permanently injured him. But I know him still today and he continues to heal. I asked his wife one day, in the grocery store, what she thought happened, what saved his life. Because, as I pointed out, everything we did didn't seem to be working for such a long time, and for so long his body kept trying to tell us that it was over. Her response to me... "because every day I talked to him, and whispered in his ear that I was there with him." Im sure she whispered many more things to him, but thats what I remember specifically that she told me.

My point for sharing this story, is that like your body, your heart and soul take time to heal. There are times you may not see any healing occurring, and you might feel that trying to recovery and heal is pointless. But sometimes healing occurs in the slightest and perhaps unseen manners. It may take years, decades, and you will always carry with you the scars from the injury some other person inflicted upon you.

But I want you to know that I, along with so many of the other men in this room, are whispering in your ear. We're telling you that we are here for you, for you to lean on, and to help you heal.

Originally Posted By: MarkK
sure doesn't give a person much reason to get out of bed in the morning, does it?


But you did get out of bed this morning. You had the strength to write this.

Hang in there. Baby steps... remember baby steps.


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#217068 - 04/10/08 01:37 PM Re: my greatest cripplers [Re: Roofus]
MemoryVault Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 693
Loc: NJ
*tears in eyes* What a beautiful reply, Roofus.


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#217069 - 04/10/08 01:42 PM Re: my greatest cripplers [Re: MemoryVault]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
I agree MV. That is not only beautiful but very true. I also work in a hospital and have seen miracles walk out to pick up the pieces of their lives. No reasonable explanation. Hang in there Mark.


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#217103 - 04/10/08 04:24 PM Re: my greatest cripplers [Re: Freedom49]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Mark,

Well, you and I have been back and forth about this in the Poetry Forum several times, haven't we? Perhaps this is a good moment to try to draw some things together.

When you speak of rejection, abandonment, and humiliation you mean fear of these things, don't you? I think all of us have had fears like this, or similar fears that have been just as daunting and intimidating. So how does anyone recover? Or even make any progress at all towards recovery?

In every case I have seen, the guy has begun by taking risks. That is, he has taken steps forward without any reasonable assurance that he will not be harmed further. How does he do it? I think we have various ways. In my case, I trusted one or two people: mainly my sister Cathie, who had always been there for me, and Thad, the site admin back in 2005. Trusting Cathie made sense; I had been able to do that so many times in the past and she had never betrayed me or let me down. Trusting Thad, and others here, was more difficult. I didn't know them - why should I trust them? The voice inside me was asking, "What does he really want?"

But I could look around me and see the wreckage that was my life back then, and I knew that something had to be done and that I had to do it. My choice was clear: continue on my way down and out, or else take some risks. Others seemed to be doing okay by trusting guys here, so I gambled on it. And over the next weeks and months I learned things from Thad that are still basic essential tools for me.

But how do we get the strength and courage to take these risks? My answer is that we already have it. It's there, Mark. We just have to take the chance and use it. So back to issues of trust and risk, I guess.

This is a good place to take those first hesitating and unbelieving steps, Mark, and in fact you are already doing this, as someone has commented to you above. Look around you on the site for the people whom you believe in the most. Maybe you believe in no one, and that will be okay. But take the risks, starting with small ones.

If it will help, PM me about this and we can talk. Or we can meet in chat. Or turn to any other moderator you feel you know and might want to try to trust.

The first steps are always hard, my friend, but hey, you are already taking them. I think the trick is to keep them safe and solid, and be willing to build on the progress you make. It's always back to trust and risk, at least in my experience.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#217126 - 04/10/08 06:35 PM Re: my greatest cripplers *DELETED* [Re: Freedom49]
GateKPR4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 955
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Post deleted by GateKPR4

_________________________
I'm a normal person dealing with abnormal experiences.
The greatest discoveries we will find within ourselves.
Ricky
__m_τΏτ_m__
|| || || || || || |

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#217229 - 04/11/08 12:22 AM Re: my greatest cripplers [Re: GateKPR4]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Look around you on the site for the people whom you believe in the most. Maybe you believe in no one, and that will be okay. But take the risks, starting with small ones.


I've been rebuffed quite a few times Mark, but I see Larry's statement as the key. I certainly would never ask you to go beyond what you feel safe doing but I think I might have a unique position on what he's saying, you have some confirmation with regards to me Mark. I've heard you talk about someone you believe in and I share you're thought's wholeheartedly. He trusts me completely and I know you trust him completely. I think you've been given a rare opportunity here, maybe I'm sounding a little arrogant here Mark but I'd be honored to be the first step.

It's a step Mark

Disregard my post if you "NEED" too Mark, but how about taking that one little chance. I know, because I was there. You have some confirmation Brother, something I wish I had when I first "took the chance"

I may be wrong \:\) but I think Larry might confirm me too.

Stay Strong
Mike



Edited by mogigo (04/11/08 12:34 AM)
_________________________
Thriving

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#217544 - 04/12/08 10:36 AM Re: my greatest cripplers [Re: mogigo]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
i've lost two resources - and about to lose my T. right now trust is VERY low on my list of abilities or priorities. everytime i open up i get burned. dunno - maybe i'm setting myself up to be abandoned. i've always been the butt of the joke - the one that's beaten by the bully - the one always pretending to laugh at himself with the others instead of crying inside.

maybe the lesson here isn't keep going. maybe the lesson here is i need to just back off and leave things as they are.

i don't know. i'm a grown man - i shouldn't be shaking in fear or on the verge of tears every minute of a ***** day.

m


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#217550 - 04/12/08 11:35 AM Re: my greatest cripplers [Re: MarkK]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Michael,

Yes, I am happy to confirm you. When I was talking to Thad three years ago I was flooding with both old and new feelings. Old, in the sense of fear and shame: I was crazy to be telling him this stuff, he would "want me like that", he would expose me, he would judge me, and on and on and on. But nothing I said shocked or troubled him; he kept telling me how important it was to talk and assuring me that I was on my way. I remember a memorable Sunday when I called him and we talked for more than an hour. At the end I was sitting in my study in tears. What if it was true? What if it really wasn't my fault? What if I was going to be okay one day?

And it was true, and still is: it wasn't my fault - never.

And I will be okay one day. Maybe not yet, but I'm working on it and I know I can do it.

And it all began with taking a risk that, looking back, I can now see was no risk at all.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#217561 - 04/12/08 12:09 PM Re: my greatest cripplers [Re: roadrunner]
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Hi again Mark

Hey, help me out here ok? "rejection, abandonment, and humiliation"?

Are you talking about what HAPPENED or what is ONGOING right now?

I have a hard time understanding what to do with this or how to help you with any possible suggestions or to offer any similar life experiences which you might be able to utilize yourself.

So, I'm gonna elaborate on a comment that you made about how you laugh at yourself outwardly while inside you're on the verge of crying.

Mark, it's ok to laugh at yourself. It's a viable and legitimate coping mechanism for your present life circumstances. In fact, it CAN make coping easier for you.

Myself for example. I am white, single, no kids, no relationships, etc. I'm a social misfit. At the same time, I work almost exclusively with Latinos, Mexicans, Guatemalans, etc. They come from a VERY family/relationship oriented culture. ALL of them are married and and children, or are AT LEAST in an ongoing relationship with a woman that they're living with. Now, to them, this is UTTERLY ALIEN in concept to them. They literally CANNOT GRASP that I'm living in a such a way. And how the questions come my way ALL them time. They ask me many intimate details about my life. (restaurant work culture is like this in case any of you don't know)

So how do I deal with this? I SMUGLY, and READILY admit that I'm a social misfit and that I spend most of my time alone etc. And that pretty much ends their inquisitive questions about my life. They get the sense that I'm doing what works for me and that if I don't have to live like "normal" people do, well...........there you go. I think you get my point.

But I hope I've mentioned something that helps you, because I'm not sure if you're talking about shit that happened to you so long ago or what's going on right now in your life.

So let me end it with this. You have many strengths. You're articulate and you have a GREAT job from what I remember. These are EXCELLENT building blocks to use in your recovery. DON'T undervalue these two things that I just mentioned ok?


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#217610 - 04/12/08 04:44 PM Re: my greatest cripplers [Re: Hauser]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
rejection and abandonment are ongoing this week
(never ending - is how it feels)
they always trigger the feelings of humiliation from my past.

but thanx - you gave me some excellent points to consider.

as for laughing at myself ... i guess that one stems from what happened in the past and walks hand-in-hand with humiliation...

M


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#217624 - 04/12/08 05:52 PM Re: my greatest cripplers [Re: roadrunner]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Roger - I thought I'd let you know - I talked to my T today specifically about the "unholy trinity" (nice phrase, by the way) and we'll be working on those issues along with the sexuality issue (which is enough to keep five Ts busy...) Thank you for your posting - it made me feel good to read your words.

Roofus - thank you for "whispering in my ear". I hope I can find strength from that like the patient you told about. Your words are words of hope - and I appreciate them.

Mike - I try not to disregard posts - I'm' sure I never "NEED" to \:\) . I appreciate your offer of trust - I will certainly consider it as I process the emotions I'm dealing with right now.

Larry - As always, you know where to point for me to see some truth I have either missed or ignored before. Fear of being "wanted like that" or judged, or exposed or just abandoned with what I tell people is a living fear in me. I am inspired by your story and your esteem in people in general.

And Hauser...
Originally Posted By: Hauser
So let me end it with this. You have many strengths. You're articulate and you have a GREAT job from what I remember. These are EXCELLENT building blocks to use in your recovery. DON'T undervalue these two things that I just mentioned ok?
Job is good, yes - pays the bills and I get to travel. I don't know that I'd call it GREAT - but in your eyes I suppose it might look that way. I'm articulate ... that means I'm real good at explaining just how bad things are, right? ... Seriously - I thank you for your words of support and encouragement. Maybe in time I'll be able to accept them more readily.

On a different note - after my session today, I'm not going to lose my T, nor feel the need to change Ts - so that has returned a little stability into this thing called life.

M


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