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#214630 - 04/01/08 11:41 AM Bush backs Ukraine NATO bid
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080401/ap_on_re_eu/bush;_ylt=AjV1RZTa9ZJno3TrfmDnrnKs0NUE

Could somebody PLEASE explain to me WHY ANY U.S. President would want to include any Eastern European Country in NATO? (Don't get the wrong idea, I want us to be out of the U.N. and NATO as well)

But I mean, all this is going to do is obligate us to defend all these countries, AS IF THEY WOULD ACTUALLY DEFEND US IF WE OURSELVES WERE ATTACKED. Give me a fucking break! Besides his STUPID desire to place a "missile defense shield" right along the Russian border, I can think of only this as something that could anger and provoke the Russian government to a more defensive posture. Hell, why not invite Chechnya or any other Republic that is trying to break away from them?

And why the HELL does NATO exist anymore ANYWAY? The cold war is over isn't it?

As an amature student of history, I am shocked by the many decisions that my elected leader makes in regards to foreign policy.

Let's see how this works in a possible scenario. The Russian and Ukrainian governments dispute the ownership of Black Sea Fleet Units. The Russians move in to take ownership of the ships. The Ukrainians and Russians start fighting eachother over this. And, now we're obligated to defend the Ukraine as they fight the Russians, because they're in NATO? President Bush is a short-sighted idiot.

Of course, most Americans could care less about this, they're more interested in celebrity weight loss contests or American Idol, you know, important things.

Opinions anyone?




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#214636 - 04/01/08 12:06 PM Re: Bush backs Ukraine NATO bid [Re: Hauser]
alexey Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 1674
Loc: Moscow, Russia
As I see it, the US wants to strenthen its military forces around NATO, while Russia has problematic relationships with Ukraine and Georgia. It has always been the case with Russia (the SU) when internal weakness led to foreign oppression. It is a historical fact.

I doubt, though, that that this initiative on the part of the US and the UN Security Council will anyhow lay the ground for the cooperative international policy between Russia, the US and other NATO members.

The question of the missile defence in Poland is clearly a political step to my mind. What was stated is that this shield will protect poland (right?) from the possible missiles from Iran... It is nonsense.

Alexey

_________________________
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#214638 - 04/01/08 12:20 PM Re: Bush backs Ukraine NATO bid [Re: alexey]
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Thank you for your comments.

As a public school student in the U.S., I was taught that NATO was a necessary military alliance to protect us from the "Soviet Threat".........you know, those Soviets who were busy burying 20 million dead soldiers/civilians after WWII. In hindsight, I've come to believe that this threat was over-rated and that we're repeating the mistakes of entangling alliances that brought about WWI. But, what do I know, I'm just a cook. LOL


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#214641 - 04/01/08 12:30 PM Re: Bush backs Ukraine NATO bid [Re: Hauser]
alexey Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 1674
Loc: Moscow, Russia
I have recently watched the Hunt for red October movie. It is silly, but interesting )))

Americans were talking about Soviets, Russians, big atomic submarine etc etc etc.

That all reminded me how trong an ideological war was during the times of ColdWar.

It is different now, but a superpower of the US remained, while we still burry and burry our poor people.

Heck, 20 million!!!! Stalin sent guys barely keeping guns to the hell. They died like I don't know, not humans. We only won thanks to the people's faith in Stalin.

The orders were "Only forward!" and everyone who turned back was shot, so the people knew they would die either way and they were dieing for the idea. It was CRAZY. Millions of people dead! What is 10,000? But that was a 20 million for the nation freedom, not a political game.

By the way, my grandgrandfather and a granduncle were fighting. The former came alive and healthy through all the war asa medic, and the later was killed in an avia attack on the train in which he was only approaching the front.

Alexey



Edited by alexey (04/01/08 12:37 PM)
_________________________
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When you feel all alone and unhappy, turn to you Inner Child and talk to Him.
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#214647 - 04/01/08 01:06 PM Re: Bush backs Ukraine NATO bid [Re: alexey]
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
I am watching Cspan right now - which is covering the House of Representatives discussing this.

It's interesting to know that Bush has backed this as well - since most House Representatives are backing it too.

I haven't seen the Hunt for Red October - I never liked those kinds of movies - but I was aware of the 20 million who died -

This is such a staggering number - it's four times the Jewish Holocaust - and receives hardly a word.

Not even the word frightening suffices.

I hope we can all live in the best possible peace soon.

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#214716 - 04/01/08 09:28 PM Re: Bush backs Ukraine NATO bid [Re: Hauser]
SuperTramp7981 Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/06/08
Posts: 99
Loc: Massachusetts
WW2 Casualties are staggering........as are Korean War casualties that isn't even taught about in schools, U.S Civil War casualties are as well but the numbers are never given mention.

WW2 Casualties-
Germany-Roughly 5 million military-overall roughly 10% of the population
Lativa and Lithuania lost large amounts of civilians around 12%-13% of their populations
Poland lost almost 16% of it's population, almost all civillian.
The Soviet Union- Lost tens of millions, over 10% of the population.
China-lost nearly TWENTY million, around 4 million or so of them military!
The United States and the United Kingdom both lost around 400,000, Australia 40,000, New Zealand 10,000, Canada 45,000

Sorry to bring it off topic but I am a history major \:\)





Edited by SuperTramp7981 (04/01/08 09:30 PM)
_________________________
Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery;
None but ourselves can free our minds.
Have no fear for atomic energy,
'Cause none of them can stop the time.
How long shall they kill our prophets,
While we stand aside and look? Ooh!
Some say it's just a part of it:
We've got to fulfil de book.

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#214717 - 04/01/08 09:30 PM Re: Bush backs Ukraine NATO bid [Re: markgreyblue]
zen-boy Offline
New Here

Registered: 01/23/07
Posts: 35
Hauser, regarding the celebrity weight loss contests and American idol:

It's all bread and circuses, my friend. Bread and circuses.

[sigh]


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#214728 - 04/01/08 10:36 PM Re: Bush backs Ukraine NATO bid [Re: zen-boy]
theatrekid Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 702
Loc: oregon
I will have you know that who Jennifer Aniston got dumped by this month is very important to me. Also I'm an American if i want to eat a 16 oz T bone for dinner every night, I will! And finally any one who is has witnessed Simon Cowell's British wit and the bright good looks of Ryan Seacrest will tell you American Idol is a very intelligent show. \:\)

I'm sure everybody picked up on the sarcasm

has any one else noticed that there is democracy every where in the United States except for in our elections?


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#214738 - 04/01/08 11:11 PM Re: Bush backs Ukraine NATO bid [Re: theatrekid]
king tut Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 2469
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: theatrekid


has any one else noticed that there is democracy every where in the United States except for in our elections?



yeah the world does realise America is a dictatorship pretending to be democratic, i mean bush and then bush junior, come on, election in America is to do with how much money the guy has.

what is that south park episode, the one that talks aboput 'it is called having your cake and eating it too', seen that episode? "America can go to war, and protest against it at the same time, that way America can do what it wants without everybody hating America" or something like that cartman said, south park is funny lol, anyway the points not about war really it is about the american government, like any government, having alterior motives

America is a great country i'm sure, came in a little late in the war but nobody is perfect, LOL

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#214740 - 04/01/08 11:20 PM Re: Bush backs Ukraine NATO bid [Re: alexey]
king tut Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 2469
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: alexey
By the way, my grandgrandfather and a granduncle were fighting. The former came alive and healthy through all the war asa medic, and the later was killed in an avia attack on the train in which he was only approaching the front.

Alexey


my grandfather didn't like the russians, if it was cloudy he would blame it on the russians lol, if it started to rain he would say the russians are playing with the weather, he always thought the russians were up to spooky things, but then again he predicted that we would be living on the moon in domes by now, don't worry, i don't hold a grudge, it was just that the russians slaughtered people in the baltic states, but then again so did the germans, but the russians took everything they had and occupied their land and destroyed their business, my grandfather joined us, the british, so don't worry, he was on the good guy side, his brother joined the enemy, forcefully recruited apparently, he did some horrible stuff, the reunion wasn't so pleasant.

_________________________
"...until lambs become lions"

I love you, little lewis, and i will never leave you. We are the same. You brighten my day, and i will make sure that i brighten yours. Hugs and kisses.


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