When I first met the woman who would later become my wife – we were in college. I knew I had “gay tendancies” but I was convinced there were something I would ‘grow through’ – after all – that’s what all the “experts” said. I also believed at that time that God would “cure” me.

The woman I met in college became a fast friend. We enjoyed so many of the same past times – we could talk about anything. In fact – she was the first person in the entire world I told about my “issues” with desiring men and the battle I fought to simply ignore the “temptation”.

Close friendship – ability to talk about anything –unlike anyone I had ever known before – within two years I loved her – and our conversations were so intimate – it didn’t take me long to truly believe I not only loved her – I was in love with her.

Fast forward 35 years and 3 children. Now I fight with the pieces of memory and the “strong indicators” of sexual abuse in my past. My own sexual identity is in question. I’ve studied more, read more, prayed more – and have a VERY different outlook on what it means to be gay. Not to mention I am convinced we are how God made us – and He wouldn’t make someone just to hate – SO – I am also convinced God does not condemn someone for loving someone who just happens to be their same gender.

Where does all this leave me? In a marriage I’m not sure was ever meant to happen. I love my children – I still love my wife. (though if I truly loved her, wouldn’t I tell her of how I truly feel??) But I am in a life that is NOT what I want – in any way. The only good things? My music, and my job. I have a problem with my work at church - not because of my sexuality - but because of the lie I'm living. While I'll grant you the church I'm in would fire me in a heartbeat if they knew ... I don't think that would be worse than the guilt I put myself through for the untrue life I'm living.

Bottom line – I don’t want to be married. Now – is it because I’m just so exhausted, frustrated, and depressed that I can’t stand my own life – or is it truly because I am a gay man trapped in a relationship that, had I not been so confused with my own belief system and understanding who I truly was – I would never have gotten involved in???

I’m not looking for any answers – cuz I dunno if there ARE any answers out there for me. I just needed to say something. I needed, for once, to be honest with who I am. The thought of posting this has me terrified … but something has to give……

What am I doing?

I am afraid that I understand your situation with a twist. I have an attraction to men but experience has shown me that it is "sexualizing" the attraction. I chose to remain in the loving relationship I'm in because it is the best of the two I will allow myself to be in, either alone and celibate or with my wife and kids. At this point in my recovery I expected the male attraction thing to have gone away but it hangs around maybe it's the real me and I'm just too afraid of it.

My wife once asked me what my life would be like if I hadn't married her and my response was "probably homosexual out of a feeling of obligation". The few times I allowed myself to experience male sex I got into it and had to apologize for not being able to finish. Once I started shivering and felt as if my bones were freezing.

I would hate to give up this life that allows me some normalcy and love for a life that I feel would be very lonely.

I'm not giving an answer, "just needed to say something" :-)

Dan

Mark,

The idea of being homosexual is something that for most of us who were raised Christian is an enigma, an impossibility, etc. As I write this I'm sitting in an apartment just off Broadway in Seattle's Capitol Hill area. Less than a block away is a church of unknown Christian lineage that sports a large Pride banner which proclaims "All Are Welcome Here".

I will not presume to make a decision for God one way or the other regarding this issue, but I do know that Christ said "Come to me, everyone who is burdened down and tired. I will give you rest." I choose to take him at his word and allow him to do whatever it is he does without me making the decision for him who is "okay" and who isn't.

Before any of you attempt to haul me before the church council remember, I'm just saying that I will not presume to make God's decisions for him. He said to "Judge not". In short, in my opinion your standing with God is between you and him, not between you, him, and I.

Lots of love,

John

I know I am gay. I've known for a LONG time. I also know I am "fearfully and wonderfully made" and that God knew me while I was still in my mother's womb. That said - I am fairly certain God loves me.

The question now for me is whether it is better to deny everything I am and live out the promise I gave my wife - or openly (for once) accept who I am, even knowing that will end my marriage - my children may deny me - and my one of my "best friends" - the pastor with whom I work every week - would tell me not to bother to come back.

With all I am facing with this "recovery" after abuse - somehow the idea of losing what little I do have just so I can say "look at me - I accept who I am" ... seems a rather shallow victory. If a victory at all.

I'm afraid ... no, strike that - I am TERRIFIED of spending the rest of my life without the ones who have meant the most to me.

But even that shouldn't be too bad - I made it this far without the love and acceptance of parents.

I know one thing - if I were not married - I would not be living a gay life style "out of obligation". Having known love from men and women - I can honestly say I know which fulfills me -makes me feel alive, and doesn't leave me feeling dirty and used.

And it's not the love of a "good woman".

M

Mark,

Since your post was so honest and sincere, I thought I would treat you with the same respect and give you an honest and sincere reply.

As I read through your post I couldn't help but think this would be better suited for the "Sexual Identity Issues" area however I think your method for posting in the spirituality forum was driven mostly out of the types of responses you're seeking, and the thought that this was probably moreso within your comfort zone to post in this area of the forum. Either way, you've opened up alot with this post and I think thats a great thing.

Personally, I am not qualified nor really in the spiritual mindset to offer you any form of educated perspective in terms of spirituality. So if I may, I would like to give you some thoughts that occurred to me as I read through your post. My reply isn't meant to hurt or offend anyone and especially you. I just think perhaps its something that needs to be said. To provide a fresh perspective

First of all, I think its fantastic that you were able to share the background of your relationship with your now-wife. Because of all this history, because of your 3 children, and because you still say you love your wife and children... I am going to say that the decisions you're wrestling with are not decisions that can be made in any form of haste. That being said, this probably doesn't seem like 'haste' to you as you've done so much reading and studying on the subject.

To me it sounds as though you are thinking you need to come to some form of peace with your sexual identity in order to remove yourself from this immense unhappiness that is expressed throughout your post as well as in several other spots on the boards lately.

Oftentimes people in times of duress, immense pressure, stress, and depression, land at fixations which they feel will help them through it. It is only after they set in motion the changes that they feel will resolve this issue and find they are still just as depressed and stuck as before, that they realize that wasn't the case.

To me it sounds as though your unhappiness is real, valid and very pronounced. However when speaking of your family, wife, 3 children... That to me doesn't sound as horrible as the big picture here. Dare I say a bit of a bright spot in your life -- (a white fur rug and red pillows?) If I might be one to suggest: perhaps it isn't your sexual identity that is your issue.

Let's face it Mark. The other day you managed to find a way to make pancakes depressing. Everything looks bleak and black to you right now. Your black room with black furniture was merely a reflection of what is going on inside you right now. A person in this kind of mental state should NOT be making life altering decisions without first exploring every possible option. I say this because you mentioned you don't want to be married now (a life altering decision undoubtedly so).

Is this a sexuality thing? It's possible. I suspect this to more exhaustion and depression speaking than anything.

Here's some perspective for ya... I was floored when you said "the church I work for". I was trying to figure out how someone, as depressed as you allude to be, could possibly work for a church. It then occurred to me, perhaps that in itself is the 'lie' that you feel you're living? Perhaps that lie is that you are making appearances at church of being OK and still able to function at your position. Whereas here on the boards, you are hideously depressed. Those seem like two different worlds colliding within you and might just represent this lie of conflict which is keeping you in this state.

I say this under the assumption that the folks you work with/for have no idea of the scope/scale of your depression. Am I right? If not then scrap all that I've said.

So Mark, instead of deciding that your marriage was never supposed to happen, take some time to examine other areas of conflict within your life. Have you considered that its your job that isn't right? Could be that you need a change in another area as well... Time to change houses/neighbourhoods/states? You say something's gotta give. I have no doubt about that.

I am really going out on a limb and saying all of this to you. I don't have a lot of context to work with. I don't have the luxury of time to go review all of your other posts to become a quick study on your life. I'm making these suggestions based on the facts presented in this post and the parts about you that I can remember.

You were noticeably vague when talking about your sexual identity being in question. It could be something that terrifies you to write here. You say that you've studied more read more and prayed more and have a very different outlook on what it means to be gay. Yet you didn't divulge details on any of these discoveries of self. This self-research of yours is what is needed to obtain answers and as you stated at the bottom of your post you are not looking for any answers. That much is true and evident here.

I think I've lost sight of where I'm going with this reply. However I think I have said all that I originally set out to say to you. If you think I'm totally off base here Mark then just let me know.

I guess I just see someone who sounds ready to throw away his marriage and life as an act of desperation to end the misery he's in. Depression sucks Mark, I know it. I'm glad you opened yourself up enough to get some other thoughts and such. I wish you the best with your exploration of this. I can only hope what I've said here will help.

~Brian

Brian,

I always enjoy posts from you because you are always open with your feelings in your response - and I appreciate that.

You're pretty close to dead-on with the things you've said. And no, the people at chuch have no idea what I'm going thru. We got close to discussing it one night and I was basically told to "get over it". Which IS the response I've gotten when my abuse has come up in discussion. Just "get over it and quit letting it run my life." And before you ask - I care a great deal for the people in that church - and it is my ministry - so I'm there (hopefully) for a valid reson...

Yeah - I could have posted under "Sexuality Identity Issues" - but this really fits both places... I think. Did I post here because I wanted "spiritual" answers? I have no idea. I can only say the spiritual aspects of my identity mean a whole lot more than any sexuality issues.

I've looked at other churches - other jobs (church is not my main income) - other places to live. My wife and I have not had any real relationship for years. I can't remember the last time there was any sex - it's not exactly something high on my list of priorities.

You mention writing about my sexual identity could be something that terrifies me - and you're right. For years, I've believed that to say "I'm gay" is the same as damning me to hell. I know believe differently. BUT - there are the vows I made to my wife - vows that (at the time) I meant VERY much.

Sex isn't what I'm "craving" in a gay relationship either - love is. My T and I have discussed my sexuality some - there are just SO many issues - and one hour a week just doesn't give much time to cover many of them.

Thank you again Brain - for all you've said. It does help. The main reason I come here - because the people here do help. Open and honest communication helps. And right now I don't see things very clearly and can use all the input I can get.

M

deleted

Mark, I'm responding again against my insecurities.
When I write I, in no way, believe that my opinion is any more than that.

When I read "Sex isn't what I'm "craving" in a gay relationship either - love is." it brought up a confusion that has been with me for years.

The men in my early life ignored me and I was desperate for male attention. (I believe it's an inborn need)
My perp exploited that need to groom and then deliver the final blow that changed the direction of my life forever.

I think I am and always will have the need for male attention but in my case it becomes sexualized and I know that the basic need of fatherly attention is what I'm trying to satisfy. I have no doubt that there are people who are homosexual and I think they should be able to live the life that fulfills their needs.
I experienced loving a man when I was in my late teens but because of fear of losing his friendship I never pursued the sexual aspect, (now I'm pleased with the decision, I have five wonderful children in my life and a supporting wife). He is the only male in my life that really treated me with respect and caring as if I was his equal.

I know that men can "love" men and do not judge anyone who wants to have a mutual relationship with anyone other that someone that they are exploiting.
I wish you the best in whatever decision you make with your life ad if we were physically in touch as friends I would support any decision you made.


Sincerely,
Dan

Thanx for all the comments, guys - but i am rapidly coming to the conclusion that i am meant to be alone.

Not exactly what i'd choose for my life - but looking at myself in the mirror - seeing the old, fat, ugly, person who returns my gaze - i am not that surprised any more.

So, once the divorce is final - i guess i'll have a lot more time to post.

i hate my life
i REALLY REALLY hate my life

m

I hope the best for you Mark, I was alone for 9 years after my divorce and actually loved it after a short while. I had no intentions of getting married again but as fate would have it, the perfect, and I was in no way looking, person came along.
I hope you find someone to love you as much as you want to love someone. My thoughts are with you.

"Go in peace"
Dan

i'm happy for you, Dan.
i guess being alone after a divorce can't be any worse than being alone during a marriage.

m

I'm happy for you too Mark. Happy that you have the strength to resolve the internal conflict that is terrible to have to live with. I have a lot of respect for you taking such a difficult step, it shows a lot of strength, but strength is what we all on this site seem to hve an abundance of.

I know I can't tell the universe how to work but I put out good thoughts for you and hope you do better than OK.

Dan

Post deleted by Trent

DESTROY? Where the ***** did THAT word come from?? My wife has no husband - she has someone who shares her house. We have no physical/emotional relationship. We rarely even sleep in the same bed. My children deserve a father that has the desire (and time) to want to spend time with them other than eating silent meals.

DESTROY???

And who (dare i ask) will be doing the "weighing"?

DESTROY???????????

i'm sorry i ever shared this issue. OBVIOUSLY i'm wrecking lives as i do.

Mark, My first wife seduced me , it took two years for her to succeed and finally she got pregnant. At that time in my life I believed what people said about having made my bed and needing to lie in it. So I had three children with her thinking that if I was going to be stuck with her for the rest of my life I might as well have kids so I can enjoy my life. Immature? absolutely. Short sighted? easy to see.

After seven years I talked with her mother who was seventy and a miserable old woman who hated everyone and life too. She and her husband were devote catholic so they didn't believe in divorce, instead they moved into seperate bedrooms and died miserable lonely people. I decided that life had to hold more fulfilment than that so I divorced. I fought for and got custody of my children, (even she admitted that I was the most loving and capable parent). I was satisfied with my decision and do not regret it.

After nearly a decade a person came into my life as if God had just dropped her down to me, but even if that hadn't happened I was satisfied with my decision to live an "honest" life and not one led by someone elses value judgment. I believe you can find a way to make the decision as easy as possible on everyone and I believe you will find that the people who love you will want your happiness too.

Here is a short poem I wrote about the experience:
My way


I am wary of people offering me
a way they are sure I should take
a thousand wrong steps on a well worn trail
will never a correct path make
I’d rather stumble and weave a bit
call on god if I make a mistake
and know the direction I move from here
won’t label me “fraud” or “fake”

Be kind to yourself Mark,
PEACE,
Dan

kind to myself?
i don't think that's permitted unless all others in the universe are getting more.
it is clearly wrong to pass injustice to anyone - so if anyone must suffer - then it must be me.

better than ruining someone else's life

why would one person be any more or less important that anyone else? Why does any one have to "suffer"? Suffer what? your making a decision about the direction you want your life to go.
My daughters and I had some tough times but they are all adults now and agree that I made the right decisio. No one is suffering.

A thought, Trent... who is destroyed if a person finally decides to be true to themselves.... to be the person he IS rather than the person he thinks others want him to be. As surivors, so many of us give up our "selves"... I think that Mark's effort to express himself and his identity should be celebrated. Is seeking peace within your heart really destructive?

Just some thoughts. I understand where you are coming from. There will be pain, there will be adjustment, there will be many emotions, but no one will be destroyed... there are too many cases here at MS where the contrary is true.

Dan

Actully Mark there is an answer. In the video cours "Valient Men" Dr. Alan Meyer and australian reasearcher has done some extensive study of the subject of sexualization and "rewiring" of the brain to fight sexual addiction and stuff and has a lot to say about how the brain's pleasure center gets messed up when we are sexualized inappropriately at an early age and what we can do about it. I tried a few of is experiements on myself and was very impressed with the results. I was sexualized by my dad and even though attracted to women. Felt a strong attraction to males all my life and ruined my first marriage. I tried to be "gay" and had a lover and was promiscious etc. but found it was not what I really wanted at all. Now re married for 19 years and a daughter going on 13 yo I am very happy. You just have to decide what you really want/need and then do the hard work to get there. PM me if you want more info.

Thanks Roger..
There's another possible answer I need to keep in mind.
It is possible I am gay, in which case my wife needs the opportunity to decide for herself whether or not to stay in what would remain a relationship with no physical elements.

Not to mention my choice of living my life as the person I was created.

m

Mark:

I will not claim to know whether God creates us with having same sex attractions. Obviously you have come the conclusion that your same sex attractions are "Part of who you are". I don´t like the term ...GAY is who I am. You are a man, a father a husband, and lots of other things ...and you have same sex attractions. I do however know, that it for many with same sex attractions are necessary, for a while to identify themselves with these attractions in order to be true to themselves. You are about to make some tough choices.

Could one of the choices be that you choose to see yourself as Bisexual? That you are capable of loving both men and women. But until now have sacrificed your Homo emotional needs, in order to do what you at that time thought was the right decission.

You have taken care of your wife and children. Now it is time to take of yourself. Would it be possible to stay in the marriage and get your wifes blessing to find friend? It is my opinion that getting a divorce and telling her that your marriage "was a lie and a mistake" is cruel. You were honest about your same sex attractions, they were part of you and still are. You now know that you have to have your homo emotional needs met, but perhaps you can have that without destroying the good part of your marriage. Yes it is going to be hard on your wife, but I do not think it is right to leave the decision up to her. It is also your decision and responsibility. Can you reach some sort of agreement?

The living a lie part seems more to do with keeping up appearance in the Church perhaps in order to keep your job?
Your marriage was no lie and your children either. Your need to find a man to love and be loved by is not a lie either. You now have to choose and it is hard. Ask God in prayers what you must do. It is never easy to do the right thing. I hope you will find peace and have your needs met. If you stay it is not going to be easy. If you leave it is not going to be easy either. All our choices have consequences. "No man is an Island. We all have a ripple effect on each others lives". But I know that having same sex attractions is not a choice, how we deal with them are however. Gods know us and our hearts.

my wife and i have had many conversations. talks about me - who i am, how i feel... each time i have given up on the part of me that cries out for a man. i give it excuses - just looking for the father i never had. trying to have the relationship my brother was supposed to be but wasn't. you name an excuse - i've used it.

anyhoo - there are not many things i claim to truly "know" in life. but, if i can believe the woman who has been my partner for most of my life, she will leave if i give any "attention" to my intense desire for a man. i know the church will let me go. it's not my main income - in fact it's doesn't cover much more than the gas to drive back and forth. it's losing the "friendships" there that i fear the most.

my children ... have been raised to be open and honest. i think i know how each of them would react - and i don't believe i would ever truly lose one of them. yes, there would be hurts and pains and many tears - but i don't think any of them would ever completely shut me out.

my T session was good this week. and it helped get some things in line. i know longer doubt my sexuality. i know.

my real choice now is do i live as the man i was born to be, or as the man others expect me to be.

put that way ... it doesn't sound that difficult a choice. but it's tearing me apart.

m

Mark,
As a godly man, find out how He expects you to live. There you will find peace, you may not be happy, but you will find peace. It is a simple formula. Not easy to formulate but simple. Just a thought.

That's what this is all about.

MarkK -- Is it possible for me to apologize for my earlier post? You have enough on your mind without my uninformed comments. Without qualification I say "I am sorry" for what I said and I am sorry that you must go through all of this. Trent

Since i can't control your actions - only you would know if it's possible for you to do something.

Forgiven - and hopefully over.

m