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#20994 - 11/20/02 12:03 AM Re: Time to Grow Up
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
Sleepy (Mike),
I didn't take offense to you posting about masturbation on the thread. In fact that is kind of awesome that you connected those dots and I was learning from everyone as the thread progressed.

Devon,
My little boy always tried to be perfect and he got the shit beat out of him just because someone changed the rules in life and neglected to tell him. My little boy just needs to be loved and accepted and he needs to know he is ok.. he is alright,,,,, I wouldn't want to kick him because he is used to that... so maybe I'm missing your point or something, but this is a different view point for me.

Don

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

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#20995 - 11/20/02 11:46 AM Re: Time to Grow Up
New to this Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 138
Loc: Mississippi
Don,
I think that I am at a different point in my journey, and I have a different attitude toward my inner child. I do understand where you are coming from. My childhood was very much like you describe yours.

I have catered to my inner child for too long. My inner child has had his every wish fulfilled. And that is the problem. Iíve nurtured the little beast for too long, and in doing so, I never acted like a grown--up.

Those of us who have delayed growing up, who have spent many years trying to have a childhood, all have well developed, loved and nurtured inner children. We also have let them take control. So for me it is not really a matter of growing up anymoreĖIím grown. I just have to take control.

I believe that I can be independent enough to make my inner child secure, for that seems to be what has motivated the little demon.

Iím not abandoning the inner child. Iím recognizing him for what he is and putting him in his proper place. To shower him with love and affection at this point seems about as productive as taking an alcoholic to the pub for a pint.

This is just another stage of recovery for me. The first was when I quit being a victim. I quit being a victim by refusing to let the abuse dictate my life. My life does not revolve around being a victim, being in therapy, bemoaning my situation or dwelling in the misery.

The second stage has become the process of acting like an adult. Iíve been a slave to the whims of my inner child for far too long. Think how ridiculous it seems for a 41 year old man to be virtually dysfunctional because his energy has been devoted to developing his inner child.

Big Devon needs nurturing. Big Devon needs to be loved and accepted for the man he has become. Ití time to put the little demon in his place and move on.

_________________________
"Knowledge itself is power" Francis Bacon

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#20996 - 11/20/02 12:03 PM Re: Time to Grow Up
New to this Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 138
Loc: Mississippi
Mike,

I think that you understand how Mikey and the little demon have manipulated us. It is really hard to be objective about our own lives, and we often deceive ourselves. I think we both have made a big step forward by recognizing the destructive nature of our inner children.

Rax,

We agree on the self preservation, but I think it is an emotional not physical preservation. I think the conflicts that arose from my little demonís self-preservation almost cost me my life several times.

I still want to get in touch with my inner child, and if I ever catch him, Iíll kick his but for being such a bad little boy.

Big Mean Devon

_________________________
"Knowledge itself is power" Francis Bacon

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#20997 - 11/20/02 12:10 PM Re: Time to Grow Up
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
I guess the way I see Little Wuame, he had to grow up too fast, now he needs to have a childhood, so that he can really grow up.

So I need to love & nurture him. This includes the proper discipline & guidance he never got in his childhood years. It also includes having the fun & learning the things he never got to before becuz he was given adult responsibilities thruout childhood & related to as adult not child.

I will be there with him thru all of this, for he is me & I am him. We need to enjoy childhood & grow up together, so that we can come together and be an integrated whole person.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

OK back to massage. :p

Don, I figured it out. Yesterday after my regular massage with my massage therapist I went as I have been to the chiropractor, whom by the way I really like & trust; he's excellent. But yesterday he did a little massage on particular places he wanted to loosen up to work on some more, that have been extremely tight. I noticed I was really having trouble relaxing as he touched massaged me. Could be becuz he's not my regular massage T, tho I have seen him for chiro several times now. I think in time I'll be able to relax; his massaging will be limited anyway. But I also feel certain that I tensed up becuz it was a man doing the massaging. Never did I have that kind of reaction with my massage T, tho I was of course nervous. I remembered we talked about that some Don so just thot I'd share it. Hope your training & massages are going well.

Take care all

Wuame

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#20998 - 11/20/02 05:49 PM Re: Time to Grow Up
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
Interesting things about the inner child. I will have to see where my journey takes me on this one but I love to at least see what others are learning as well.

Wuame, Last night I had a massage (same guy that has done the past three). I relaxed more last night and let him have more control than I did in the previous two. HOwever, I still tried to control my neck and that is one of the areas that really needed a lot of work. But he noticed that I am more relaxed and letting him work which I noticed to. Usually when someone places their hands on me, all muscles tense up and I have to slowly start breathing life back into them. I don't think your reaction was strange as I often go through that. I would just write about what you felt as much as you can (if you haven't already) and see if at some point you can piece the other parts together. With this guy (or even in class) I usually get nervous and more and more, I am learning how to relax myself. But it isn't easy for myself either. And there are certain spots that people can touch which are more accepting to me than other areas.

Don

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

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#20999 - 11/20/02 11:22 PM Re: Time to Grow Up
Sleepy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 288
Loc: Arizona, USA
I'm kind of glad that the conversation turned back to massage. I've been looking around and have found a few massage therapists, though I haven't called any of them yet. I see this as a step in taking back my life. In a lot of ways my catering to my inner child has kept everyone physically away even though I've always yearned for human warmth. I'm looking forward to this new experience. By the way, I'm not too familiar with massage therapy. What are some basic things to keep in mind? For example, how much background info should I tell them? Also, how much does it usually cost? I probably have more questions but I can't think of them right now. Thanks.
mike

_________________________
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end."
--Ursula K. Le Guin

"Mental health is a commitment to reality at all times."
--M. Scott Peck

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#21000 - 11/20/02 11:40 PM Re: Time to Grow Up
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Mike:

Don or others can maybe answer you better than I, but I can share my experience.

I've found massage to definitely be a way of taking my life back, ironically, by trusting someone else with it in a way. But its hard to have a life without trust.

Massage, for me at least, has a playful side, great for Little Wuame & for Big Wuame. It is very much a physical & a spiritual experience.

Interview a massage T before starting massages with them if you feel the need to, and find someone you feel you can be comfortable with.

Depending on your abuse & other issues, gender may be an important consideration.

The more comfortable you are and get to be with someone the more you're liable to share. Initially I said nothing about having been abused. After a few massages I was still tense physically but loosened up enuf emotionally to trust & tell my massage T that I needed help relaxing becuz I had been abused as a child. No specifics, none needed. She has been a big help.

What also helps is that I usually see her right after my T, who works in the same group. So I already had some built in trust there thru him too. If you have a T maybe he/she could recommend someone for massage? Or one of your doctors could?

Cost probably varies a lot from AZ to NC, or even office to office. Mine is $55, a bit cheaper than most around here.

Mike I pray you find someone who can provide therapeutic touch to your body & your soul.

Wuame

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#21001 - 11/21/02 12:59 AM Re: Time to Grow Up
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
I have had several professional massages outside of my classes and so I will try to add to what Wuame told you which was very good.

The very first time I went to get a massage it was on a cruise ship. While I was very stressed out and it helped lower my stress a little, it was not that great of a massage. There was no connection with that person and they didn't ask me any questions, and I didn't give them any information. This time it was a female and it was long before I started down my recovery path and healing. I probably had other intentions on my mind and fortunately the lady didn't allow those things to happen.

The next time was in a fitness center and the guy doing it basically rubbed a few muscles and that was about it. Not that good of a massage but then I wasn't real comfortable about having anyone touch me. He didn't really ask me any questions about what I wanted from the massage or anything else.

The next time was in a "new age type center". I was seeing a therapist and I had talked to her about me going to a massage therapist. My primary reason was that I wanted to experience my body more and learn to enjoy healthy touch (and get rid of the memories of unhealthy touch that I had). So when I went to this lady, I told her briefly why I was there and briefly that I had a pretty rough child hood with a lot of physical abuse. The massages she gave me were good, very safe and took things very slow. If I was triggered, she encouraged me to bring it up. That was a very positive experience that I had.

Then I didn't get another massage until I started looking at going to school and since then, I've had several professional ones. Some of them have been excellent and some of them have been a massage. Even with the one person that I see regularly now, some massages are better than others.

What I've learned is that the more I relax and get to know myself, the more I get out of the massage .... but.... and iff..... the massage therapist knows what they are doing and really connects with you from the mind-body approach. I've also learned that certain movements like fast-deep work tend to trigger me easily so I often state up front that if they start doing deep work, to take it slow. There are a couple of parts on me that can sometimes be ticklish so I often bring this up. If my feet get cold, they start cramping and my feet get very cold when I get a massage (while the rest of me is sweating). So I make sure I tell the massage therapist this. I'm actually finding out that if I start face up, I relax more than if I start face down. This is just something I found out about myself in the last massage.

The person I regularly use knows that I had a rough childhood, but I haven't gone into the details with them and not sure if I am going to. I expressed to them last night that I wanted to connect touch more with my mind because while I can see someone touch me, I don't always feel it. So these things are things we are working on. Part of it is just getting me to relax and let him have control. While I am gettingg better about this, I still try and control my neck especially which doesn't help me in a massage.

In the school I go to, we are taught how to view a person from the mind body approach, not just as someone to give a massage to. Kind of the whole body approach. There is a differance in massage therapists on this and you will have to feel your way through some of this. If someone doesn't ask you much or take much interest in you when you walk in the door, I would be a little leary about letting them give me a massage. Some people I connect with from the start and some I don't. The guy that regularly massages me was one I sort of connected with at first but it took a few times before I started to feel more safe (which is hard for me to do around anyone).

It depends upon the massage therapist but if I don't know them, I don't completely strip down (I will at least leave my boxers on). Depends on the situation, person, environment,,etc.. But you need to do whatever is comfortable and safe for you. I think the one massages I was getting from the lady at the center was where I basically kept most of my clothes on the first time. I was too scared to do it any way else. Now, I strip down.... of course the massage therapist should make sure you are fully draped and most states that is the law. They may move the drape to work on various body parts, but your genital area should never be exposed unless you and the massage therapist agree that there is a reason to do this.... And they should keep you covered (draped means covered) on your back down to your sacral area (but no lower than that).

I would take it slow into massage and see if you can't find someone that approaches it from the mind-body approach. Be brief about your past and let them know why you are there. If you are seeing a counseling therapist, let them know what you are doing so they can help you work through any issues that arise. Most of all if you go to get a massage do whatever you have to do to feel safe, whatever that requires. Take it slow and if it takes several sessions to fully get into things, that is ok. But do what is best for yourself as that is what the massage session is all about. At no time and I mean NO time should a massage therapist make any jokes or suggestions about sex. That is unethical, wrong and I would run like hell from a person that did that. Just something to be aware of.

Costs vary. I've paid $70 for an hour to $60, $45, $35 for an hour. It varies from person to person, place to place and what they are doing. Most of the time a person will get a Swedish Massage or Full Body Massage (kind of the same thing). It's just kind of the common accepted thing out there that everyone starts out with.

Make sure you address any concerns with someone you go to and you can do that up front in the phone conversation or when you get there. Keep a journal to record things you experience or learn about yourself.

Most of all, just relax,,, and relax some more and relax some more when you go to get one.... because the massage will be far more effective if you do.... and if you aren't sure what to do, just have your massage therapist guide you... that's what they are there for.

Don

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

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#21002 - 11/21/02 10:57 AM Re: Time to Grow Up
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Don:

Thanks! A lot of great insight & advice there for anyone interested in massage, whether for the 1st time or not. I found it very affirming becuz even tho I've been getting massage for about a year off & on, I realize I was fortunate & really hit the jackpot with my massage therapist.

Before/between times with her early on, I went twice to a woman who was closer, at the fitness center where I teach water aerobics. She was nice & gave a good general massage, but we just didn't click. She didn't seem that into the mind-body connection, or into the massage. She was just doing this on some evenings, and had another fulltime job during the day. OK for some but not for me.

So I've stayed with my current M.T., who works in a center for "complimentary healing arts," along with my T & chiro, and others who do massage, acupuncture, Pilates, aromatherapy, etc. She is very in tune with the mind/spirit-body connection as are all the workers there as far as I know.

I had the advantage of having already seen her around, and having my T recommend her, so I could trust some up front. Her openness & sensitivity helped, and were immediately apparent. So initially I sensed I needed to say little & I was right.

She could sense touches & places that were tender, sore, or sensitive, spiritually & physically, as it always seems to be both. She also seemed to be able to have some sense of what the source of the discomfort was, tho she said nothing. She let me say it when I was ready.

As I said earlier it took a few visits (over a good span of time) to mention being a survivor. I've not given much detail. I'll just mention a certain spot is sensitive becuz of abuse & leave it there, unless a bit more detail is helpful. Sometimes it is, but usually if I say "abuse area" she seems to know intuitively what kind of massaging to do in that area.

I have never shared any sexual details, or even mentioned the abuse was sexual. Don't think I'd ever share much in the way of detail, even (especially!) if she were a he.

Don, I had to chuckle, tho ironically, when you talked about your cruise ship massage & the "other ideas" you had. Tho I knew I couldn't be massaged by a man, this was my biggest fear about massage by a woman. The first one I saw twice was in all honesty no threat.

But my current M.T. is considerably younger than I and in all honesty rather attractive. Initially this scared me, but I did have that built-in trust, and immediately got good vibes from her.

Incredibly, at least for me, I have no sexual interest in her whatsoever (and I know that is mutual). She is another one of my therapists. While we are very open & honest with each other there are also clear boundaries, that really haven't even had to be spoken.

For instance, I don't completely undress. What I do is wear a loose & thin bathing suit, easy to massage thru or under if necessary. Sometimes it is, as a lot of my trouble is very lower back & buttocks, due to the auto accident & degenerative arthritis. In other words sometimes I need to be loosened up becuz I'm such a tightass! :rolleyes:

My M.T. still always asks me what kind of massage I want & what areas I want to focus on before each session, and continues to question thru sessions. Tho more & more once she starts she seems to sense & do just what I need.

Having someone who knows such a variety of massages (she also uses hot towels & rocks, aromatherapy, oils, music, whatever helps) is so helpful in making very specific mind-body connections & healing touches.

Her therapeutic touches to my spirit as well as my body are helping me know, love & take better care of my body. She has even given me stretches, exercises, & relaxation/breathing exercises to do at home, during the week & before coming to sessions (especially as it is a long drive).

All of this is helping me to finally be able to be truly intimate with my wife. Also to in general trust & build friendships. Slowly but surely.

Sorry about the ramble. I'm just really realizing & appreciating what a good M.T. I have & how fortunate I am.

Mike, I hope you or anyone else looking for an M.T. can find one as good as her.

Don, I am convinced you will be that good, in your own special way of course!

Also, journaling about my sessions, and in general, is a good idea. Thanks.

Take care

Wuame

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#21003 - 11/21/02 05:03 PM Re: Time to Grow Up
arghilles Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/02
Posts: 45
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Hi!

I know what you mean about being a five year old and having a five year old's sexuality.
I am really a very young person, now being 30, but deep down no more than five or six.
This person is only attracted to girls and really a lot. I think he is like any other boy except that he has sexual feelings. This boy is also very very afraid of men, all men and also teenagers cause to him they are older than him and could be perpetrators.
In order to survive and feel safe he finds himself sometimes making other men or teenagers his sexual objects.When he does so he is in control, however always after a few minutes he becomes anxious and his heart starts beating like a drum. Why?
He is dead scared of the ones he sometimes have to objectify.
This is the person i am, i recognize him. Otherwise if i sexualize other men i sort of go numb, into a shell and i am no longer present, not being myself.
I am tired of being scared, but for me there is nothing to do but push on and trust that the boy some day will become a man.
If i relax really much he is there, but i am so scared someone could see that i have been a victim and that some guy would make a move, it would be disastrous for me, totally devastating. I try to build up trust.

I think you ought to trust the little boy and his feelings. What is he scared of? What does he want, need?

I don't need sex from men, but i need confirmation, a hug, a pat on the shoulder. The little boy is confused.
Perhaps this goes for you too?

/ Erik

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Erik

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