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#205919 - 02/18/08 06:26 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: mogigo]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
I hope your not lumping me in with the "they" you speak of. I agree with what you said about that woman. She is a nut job. But christianity has no corner on nut jobs. They are everywhere and join all kinds of institutions. Unfortunately we don't get to pick the persons who want to say their bigoted little souls are christian, muslim, etc. Oh and everyone wants to complain about the hypocrits in Christianity. Well...where else would you find a hypocrite except hanging out with the genuine article. I am sorry they behave badly but at least they are hanging out where eventually the truth might reach them and help them see the error of their ways. Just a thought.




Edited by Freedom49 (02/18/08 06:27 PM)

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#205964 - 02/18/08 09:57 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: mogigo]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
Originally Posted By: mogigo
One of the problems with the discussion about believers and Atheism is that Athiest discussions tend to comprise mostly of saying "this.. is why I don't believe in god" and alot of the "this" is the hypocracy seen in religion or it's followers.
Seems that no matter what an Athiest says about his reason's it will be taken as an attack on believers. Atheism isn't a religion, were a group that discusses why religion is a fallacy to us. Our belief's are just an idea to be discussed, they centre more around what we don't believe in that what we do.

I posted a video in a discussion about religion, it was a video of a horrible Christian person spouting off all kinds of ugly things and she had to be the most intolerant person I've ever seen in my life. Instead of her getting denounced by real and good Christians all I got was "oh great, more stereo types of Christians". They still wouldn't denounce this grotesque person, they didn't really defend her but they did in a way by intimating that I shouldn't have posted the video. Somehow I was saying that all Christians were just like her.

What I felt was the same silence from Muslims about terrorism and the black community about violence. They would rather stand together with terrorists and murders than denounce their own kind. Seems pretty secularist and........static to me. Better to shoot the messenger than admit the problems.

I don't feel like I can have a discussion on Atheism, period.

Stay strong
Mike


Praise the Lord, Mike, so glad to have another athei..er i mean Christian to talk about atheism...um...I mean Jesus with! Well you can take your chances speaking your mind in my Spiritual Minorities Thread and hopefully it at least wont get removed or something. I remember that video..it was kind of triggering but somehow that made it just that much more funny!
Sure it was a stereotype, but as you pointed out it was a representation of the kind of extremism that is worthy of ridicule.
I don't expect my views on spirituality to be popular or that they won't be criticized but i do expect to be able to put my little 2 cents in and not be threatened with censorship if i'm not trying to do anything but sort through my own damn stuff.
Thanks for your input though..i feel like i have found at least a few like minds here......our numbers will grow...we will infiltrate the power structure and soon ATHEISM WILL RULE THE WORLD, HA HA HAHAAA!






Edited by blueshift (02/18/08 10:06 PM)
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#206045 - 02/19/08 02:40 AM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: blueshift]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Blueshift,

This is perhaps the moment for a few further clarifications:

Originally Posted By: blueshift
I don't want to quarrel over beliefs or criticize anyone's religion, but nor do i want to sweep something under the diplomatic rug that deeply hurt me. It still hurts me, just like the sex abuse and keeping hush about it won't make it better.


In fact your perspective is very quarrelsome indeed; that's the essence of it. Please also bear in mind, as has already been stated to you, that the focus of this site is recovery from male sexual abuse. If religion has been used to harm you that is an outrage, and I object as much as anyone to how narrow religious fundamentalism (in any faith) seems to be allergic to criticism or questioning of any kind. BUT ... this site is not one aimed at healing from spiritual abuse as such.

Originally Posted By: blueshift
But if you don't want to hear it, great! read another forum and let me and like minded people talk about it!


The guidelines for the forum have been stated and discussed with you. They are not there to pursue some one-sided agenda, engage in censorship or enforce "political correctness". They are there to maintain the atmosphere of healing and safety that is essential for the stated purposes of this site. They stand as stated and we must ask that all users of the site abide by them. The rules apply to everyone.

You have been here less than a month. If you check the archive, which is open to you as far back as three years (that's the limitation of our software), you will see that there have been quite a few discussions of the negative impact of the church and religion on individual survivors. That discussion has never been restricted or censored.

Originally Posted By: blueshift
But it's hard enough to talk about it without trying to keep it all worded up in nice pretty accepting-of-Christianity package. I don't want or expect others to tread carefully lest they say something critical of my beliefs and don't feel it's good for me to have to do it either. That's just the way i feel.


You are of course welcome to your views and feelings and yes, you do need to express them. But we cannot provide you with such a venue here. We expect all who come here to be accepting of others on all counts: gender, race, sexual orientation, age, and yes, religion. That expectation is not going to change.

Originally Posted By: blueshift
The reason i'm so hung up on this whole freedom of speech issue is that i just don't know how to go about talking about how the religious ideas that i was taught played into my abuse, without saying critical things about religious ideas! And i don't know how i can really help myself if i can't talk freely to someone about that stuff!


I can't say I have seen much about your sexual abuse issues in your posts over the past two weeks. In fact, most of your posts are strictly focused on the defense of atheism and have little stated bearing on sexual abuse issues. Perhaps the site would be more useful to you if you spoke more about how religious ideas related to the sexual abuse you suffered.

Originally Posted By: blueshift
So limiting my freedom of speech limits this site's usefulness to me as a tool for healing.


You are not being asked here to respect and accept religious ideas for yourself, but we do expect that along with everyone else, including many guys who have as little use for religion as you, you respect and accept that for other guys their faith and religious convictions are valuable and important - even intrinsic to who they are as men and individuals. So yes, your freedom of speech is limited in that sense. If that is a problem for you, then also yes, agreed, this site will be of limited usefulness to you as a tool for healing.

Originally Posted By: blueshift
It's as simple that really.


Agreed. It really is as simple as that.

Larry, aka roadrunner,
For the ModTeam

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#206151 - 02/19/08 01:10 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: roadrunner]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I'm not atheist, but I'm not Christian either...I just come up with what makes sense to me in my heart and mind. \:\)

But I got your -- and the Christian's, and EVERYONE'S -- back. \:\)

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Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#206228 - 02/19/08 07:25 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: AndyJB2005]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Awesome perspective, Andy. Thanks for that.

John

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“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#207240 - 02/25/08 01:19 AM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: WalkingSouth]
zen-boy Offline
New Here

Registered: 01/23/07
Posts: 35
The very labeling of ourselves as atheists, Christians, Buddhists, etc. is at the heart of the problem.


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#207269 - 02/25/08 10:00 AM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: zen-boy]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
The way I see it, this debate has been going on since religion began -- what makes us think we can fix it here on our lonely website? Better to just let people believe what they feel best about in their hearts and just worry about our own personal lives and beliefs. \:\)

The only problem I have with major religions is when they try to impose it on other people who don't necessarily want it. Like changing the constitution to dictate others' lives, for example.

Religion should be a personal thing, and a private thing, I feel. But it's difficult in, say, Christianity, when the whole backbone of the faith is conversion of others and the idea of saved vs. unsaved. I wish more religious people would try to "save" via example, not coercion (ie -- threats of damnation).

I, too, wish that the more moderate Christian majority would step back from the more loud minority and denounce their hateful and small-minded actions. It's giving their whole faith little credibility to many people -- which is why church populations are on the decline even in America. Like me, they leave because they feel they can't in good conscious be a part of the loud minority's church. It's the responsibility of the believer to share evidence and make the case of the belief, not the skeptic, in my opinion. \:\)





_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#207308 - 02/25/08 01:21 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: AndyJB2005]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
I, too, wish that the more moderate Christian majority would step back from the more loud minority and denounce their hateful and small-minded actions. It's giving their whole faith little credibility to many people -- which is why church populations are on the decline even in America. Like me, they leave because they feel they can't in good conscious be a part of the loud minority's church. It's the responsibility of the believer to share evidence and make the case of the belief, not the skeptic, in my opinion.


So well said Andy, the problem I see is that Christian's are letting these people speak for them. Where is you're voice people?

Of course I know that this isn't the majority, do you really think I'm that stupid? but all I hear is this minority. You good, wonderful, needed, amazing Christians have lost you're voice. I don't know why you have lost you're voice, why?

To me as an Atheist, real Christians epitimize what a person should aspire to, but you let a minority of people that I think are a blight on Christianity speak for you.

I believe in the teachings of Christ, I just don't believe in the hocus pocus. Why is this a threat? I believe in you're path but I'm still denounced. I follow more of Christ's teaching than some Christians but I'm sided against simply because I don't believe in a higher power. Shit I think Jesus was probably the most amazing, important man, in human history, but because I don't believe he was the Son of God I'm sided against with people who have missed his message completely.

Ugh, I'm sad

Stay strong Guys
Mike

_________________________
Thriving

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#207311 - 02/25/08 01:37 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: mogigo]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2572
Originally Posted By: mogigo
Quote:
I, too, wish that the more moderate Christian majority would step back from the more loud minority and denounce their hateful and small-minded actions. It's giving their whole faith little credibility to many people -- which is why church populations are on the decline even in America. Like me, they leave because they feel they can't in good conscious be a part of the loud minority's church. It's the responsibility of the believer to share evidence and make the case of the belief, not the skeptic, in my opinion.


So well said Andy, the problem I see is that Christian's are letting these people speak for them. Where is you're voice people?

Of course I know that this isn't the majority, do you really think I'm that stupid? but all I hear is this minority. You good, wonderful, needed, amazing Christians have lost you're voice. I don't know why you have lost you're voice, why?

To me as an Atheist, real Christians epitimize what a person should aspire to, but you let a minority of people that I think are a blight on Christianity speak for you.

I believe in the teachings of Christ, I just don't believe in the hocus pocus. Why is this a threat? I believe in you're path but I'm still denounced. I follow more of Christ's teaching than some Christians but I'm sided against simply because I don't believe in a higher power. Shit I think Jesus was probably the most amazing, important man, in human history, but because I don't believe he was the Son of God I'm sided against with people who have missed his message completely.

Ugh, I'm sad

Stay strong Guys
Mike


I agree. I get sick of the ignorant minority being the only ones heard. I don't know why it is this way, I really don't. If I could find a way to change that I would. I speak up, but it doesn't ever seem to accomplish anything. I think one of the major issues is that this minority has no problem bilking innocent and naive people of their money and then in turn use that money to push their BS version of Christianity. While those who have the proper understanding wouldn't think of cheating and scamming people and thusly don't have nearly the resources that these extremists have.

I see these extremist christians as being little to no different than the extremist muslims you always hear about. They both will do anything to anyone to get what they want. Makes me sick. It's not what Christ taught at all.

I'll go out on a limb here that will have the "minority" against me (something that I would prefer actually simply because I can't stand em) I think that "most amazing, important man, in human history" would hang out in a gay bar long before he stepped a single foot into a huge majority of "christian" churches in this world. And yes, my not capitalizing "christian" here is on purpose. I think too many call themselves "christians" but haven't even bothered to learn what it really means. To them it's just a club to join to push their particular agenda. For those who might disagree with me about where Jesus would hang out, crack the book and read it, you'll find that while He did go to the temple, He spent more time hanging out with those that the religious leaders of His day looked down their dirty noses at. Only problem was those religious leaders were standing on their heads in terms of their understanding, so from their perspective, it was down, while in reality, it was up. In reading you'll also find that the people Jesus had a problem with, the one's he called a "vile brood of vipers" and "children of Satan" were the religious hypocrites who spread hatred and bigotry rather than Love.

So, how do those who aren't heard get heard? I try but like I said earlier, it seems like I'm always ignored or drowned out by the likes of Pat Robertson.



Edited by JustScott (02/25/08 01:38 PM)

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#207313 - 02/25/08 01:41 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: mogigo]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
We are out here Mike but we get shouted down. We are busy doing the work, walking the walk. Taking care of the sick, comforting the widows and orphans, feeding the hungry. It is easy to yell and scream hateful stuff. It is much harder to work the soup kitchens and shelter the homeless and it doesn't get the same press because it is not sensational. I am deeply sorry those that preach hate offend but that is their choice and they have the freedom to do that. I try not to lump the bad with the good and only hope others like you do the same. Thanks for your post.


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