Newest Members
kk90, Austintexan, Cancan, LS, PaulnMA
12256 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
ByondClosedDoors (41), Dave1425 (32), DeafDavid (23), LowSky (57)
Who's Online
1 registered (1 invisible), 37 Guests and 8 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12256 Members
73 Forums
63117 Topics
441399 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#207259 - 02/25/08 06:26 AM Glacial pace
BMF Offline


Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 60
Loc: Toronto
I think it's "Allies in Healing" that mentions the "glacial pace" at which recovery occurs. My question is, why MUST this be? Surely, if we rationally know something to be other than we feel it, we can think our way into different behavior? Rationally, I know it's not my wife who caused my abuse, yet I often put her in the same "can't be trusted" category as my abuser. My subconscious often wins the battle. I know, I know...we develop defense mechanisms as a child that save us, but no longer work as adults. As an adult, I KNOW this is the case, but it doesn't necessarily translate to how I behave. I can feel things changing inside me, but that doesn't necessarily translate to any expression of change outwardly. It's fear that keeps us down, but if we rationally know that the fear is stale, that we're NOT going to get raped, surely there must be some way we can move along at a faster pace (something not in the geological time frame). I'm not talking about getting around the problem, I'm talking about going through it without wasting time worrying about things that cannot possibly do us harm.

I'm interested in hearing about things you may have done to speed up the process, not statements about how we must accept this. I don't accept it. I guess I'm just angry. I didn't ask for this crap, and I want to fix it ASAP!

_________________________
If a man's character is to be abused, say what you will, there's nobody like a relation to do the business.
- William Makepeace Thackery

Top
#208035 - 02/29/08 10:08 AM Re: Glacial pace [Re: BMF]
BMF Offline


Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 60
Loc: Toronto
I guess this thread is a flop. Maybe people feel invalidated by my comments. If this is the case, I am truly sorry. Am I the only person feeling impatient with their own recovery? I'm pissed off that the very things I need to progress at what I consider to be a reasonable rate have been damaged by my abuse. I'm pissed off because the longer I take, the more of a drain I am on my wife, whom I love dearly. She is "collateral damage" in my inner war. Does it have to be this way? What are some techniques that might help prevent me from letting my vigilance push any loving I may have given off the radar by a perceived threat? I'm going to start some inner child work (thanks Larry "roadrunner" and John Oarc). I hope this is the fastest most effective way to victory/freedom.

BMF

_________________________
If a man's character is to be abused, say what you will, there's nobody like a relation to do the business.
- William Makepeace Thackery

Top
#208040 - 02/29/08 10:37 AM Re: Glacial pace [Re: BMF]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2572
I don't think it's a flop. For me I read it and just didn't know what to say.

I'm just starting myself, and I agree, it doesn't feel fast enough. I want it fixed, I want it better, and I don't want to accept a slow pace.

My wife is hurting as well. I'm hurting for her, and yes, I hate being a drain on her. She feels at the end of her rope after two months, what will a "glacial pace" do to her!!!

Only thing I've found helpful has been being very open with her. I decided early on to to open those barriers and let her in as deep as I could. It's hard, but the closeness I've felt from it has helped, but then I've got an amazingly understanding wife. I told her just yesterday about my past porn addiction, which she thought was over before we got married but I had to tell her it was long after that it finally went away, and then about the MB issues. She said she didn't care about any of that, she just love her husband. Felt so good.



Edited by JustScott (02/29/08 10:38 AM)

Top
#208049 - 02/29/08 11:22 AM Re: Glacial pace [Re: JustScott]
BMF Offline


Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 60
Loc: Toronto
Hi Scott,

Thanks for your reply. I too had a porn addiction, and self-medicated with obsessive MB (for many years it was 6 times a day). You have met my awesome wife, LJA, from the Friends and Family side. She's also mentioned to me how similar our situations seem.

How did you open your barriers ("break down my walls", as I would say)? That deals with the letting your wife in side, do you have any issues venturing into her heart?

BMF

_________________________
If a man's character is to be abused, say what you will, there's nobody like a relation to do the business.
- William Makepeace Thackery

Top
#208050 - 02/29/08 11:23 AM Re: Glacial pace [Re: JustScott]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
Hey BMF, I just think the lack of replies is kind of an answer in itself. I couldn't really sit down and give you any answers to speed up the process.

I do understand you're frustration though, when I first started I actually thought "okay, tell my story a few times, get it out and in a few months I'll be right as rain". It hasn't quite worked out that way lol, but I will say that I'm certainly 1000 times better than I was when I started dealing with everything. In fact I'm probably feeling better than I've ever felt in my life.

Finding other survivors and becoming friends has probably made the most difference in my gains, it wasn't that I healed any faster but it did give me that ability to just be myself, warts and all. That kind of took the pressure off trying to become someone else quickly. Really it just gave me the insight to see all I really needed was to be myself to feel better. I think hiding who we are contributes so much to all those awful feelings.

Stay strong
Mike

_________________________
Thriving

Top
#208071 - 02/29/08 01:44 PM Re: Glacial pace [Re: mogigo]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1898
Loc: durham, north england
for me, things seem actually to have moved quite fast, ---- sometimes too fast sinse my big crysis in november. One minute I was fine, in fact more than fine, i was more in love with someone than I'd been in five years for only the third time in my life, and for once I was entertaining the possibility that she might have feelings for me, and even resolving to get around my problem with physical contact and affection enough to hold her hand.

then, I'm completely shattered, in one of the worse states I've been for a very long time, experiencing really serious depression and lacitude. then, I'm trying to fix myself, coming to this site. I then disclose to friends, ----- one of whome, who is a trained rogerian counceler has helped me realize many things about myself and helped me think in several different ways, get used to the idea of going to see a therapist, ----- and on monday I'm seeing her.

I actually feel that things are moving really quickly, ---- sometimes a bit too fast. obviously counting the time sinse the things happened, and all those moments when I stil had really bad days, my various hang ups which I acknolidged I had even when I was thinking I was fine, it has been a long time. but recently things seem to be moving very fast. It's possible this will change, ---- I don't know, and certainly my issues about physical contact and compliments, and my problems with being loved and my desire for it are stil with me, so it might be that I'm at the start of a long journey, rather than part way through a short one.

I also realize that I'm being very wandering and contradictory here, and not making coherent posts at all, ----- reading what I say here it's entirely different to the way i write in other places, or talk in real life.


Top
#208092 - 02/29/08 04:01 PM Re: Glacial pace [Re: BMF]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
BMF,

I wanted to comment on this point first:

Originally Posted By: BMF
I guess this thread is a flop. Maybe people feel invalidated by my comments. If this is the case, I am truly sorry. Am I the only person feeling impatient with their own recovery?


I don't think others feel invalidated by you or are ignoring you. It's often very difficult to see why one thread takes off and another flops. I mean, hey, I have presided over some MAJOR crash-and-burn threads!!!! \:D And some I thought were pretty good ideas. Go figure.

Many times a guy will read but have no comment to make, or not know what to say, or think he will come back later, or in my case, just fail to see the thread right away. Usually it has nothing to do with how others regard the person starting the thread.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#208095 - 02/29/08 04:13 PM Re: Glacial pace [Re: roadrunner]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
I am with you BMF. I when I realized I COULD recover I started reading everything I could get my hands on. I ordered books and Started going to SA groups and other men's groups and went back to my T and eventually got another T to Fast track my recover. It has been good so far and me and the Wife are doing better. I have even responded to some of your wife's posts in Fand F I think. Hang in there it just seems slow sometimes because the things that change sometimes are not the things you are working on which is weird


Top
#208097 - 02/29/08 04:20 PM Re: Glacial pace [Re: BMF]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2572
Originally Posted By: BMF
Hi Scott,

Thanks for your reply. I too had a porn addiction, and self-medicated with obsessive MB (for many years it was 6 times a day). You have met my awesome wife, LJA, from the Friends and Family side. She's also mentioned to me how similar our situations seem.

How did you open your barriers ("break down my walls", as I would say)? That deals with the letting your wife in side, do you have any issues venturing into her heart?

BMF


It's been very hard. I just kinda decided I'd let her in, which was difficult in of itself. But my wife's love for me has really really helped. That safety has let it happen. Trust your wife. Let her in. That's all I did. I can't really tell you how I did it. One thing I did do, which made a huge difference, was verbally I gave myself to her. Literally told her that my body was now hers. Gave her ownership, rather than all the crap and people from my past.

As for venturing into her heart, I'm not sure if I have yet or not. I don't know. All this is so new to me.


Top
#208103 - 02/29/08 04:40 PM Re: Glacial pace [Re: JustScott]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1898
Loc: durham, north england
Bmf, just to go on from what Larry said, I've found myself often reading threads but having no idea how I'm supposed to reply or what I should say, which is not usual for me at all.

also, in threads where people are being extremely open and it is obvious to me that they are feeling a lot of pain, my reaction is feeling a great deal of sympathy, but I don't know how to say anything useful or how to express my sympathy, so I just stay quiet.


Top
#208125 - 02/29/08 08:08 PM Re: Glacial pace [Re: dark empathy]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
BMF,

Okay back to the mac and back to your thread and this comment:

Quote:
Surely, if we rationally know something to be other than we feel it, we can think our way into different behavior?

If only it were so, my friend. We are all pretty rational guys, I think, and if we could reason our way through this crap we would be healed in short order. I remember coming here in May 2005 and thinking, "I'll hang here for awhile and be all fixed up in a few weeks."

The problem is that there's a huge difference between knowing something and believing in it - trusting it enough that we are willing to use it as a tool in our lives. An example I often use is this one: Suppose you are at the shore of a frozen lake, and you know that with all the cold weather recently that lake is definitely frozen deep enough that you would be safe walking across the ice to the other side. But what if you're wrong? It's late and no one else is around. If you were to go through the ice you would be a goner for sure. So you walk around on the shore - you didn't believe in what you knew; you weren't able to trust it.

Our recovery from childhood abuse is similar in that the real damage to us is emotional more than physical. An abused boy learns a ton of false lessons about himself and his place in the world, and unless he receives the professional help he needs those false lessons remain with him into adulthood and can harm him in so many ways.

We all have examples of that, and those examples show so clearly how our emotions can overpower our logic and reasoning. Here are two of mine. I am successful and widely acknowledged in my field, yet until about two years ago I considered myself a very lucky fraud, despite all the recognition and success I gained. Where's the sense in that? None, of course. What was going on was that the feeling of worthlessness I learned as a boy was still affecting me, even without my knowledge. The other example is this. The man who abused me died in 1994 and as of 2003 I knew this: I googled his name and found his burial record. But one evening two years later, when I was talking with my Dad and a few other totally safe friends and relatives, I suddenly fell apart and told my Dad, "I'm scared it will start all over again. I can't make him stop." What's the sense in that, when I knew the perp had been dead 11 years by then? And even if he had still been alive he would have been a frail old man, hardly someone I would need to fear. What was happening was the Little Larry's fear suddenly resurfaced and overwhelmed Big Larry, who was still unprepared to understand and deal with those feelings.

Unfortunately, the feelings we have aren't things we can turn on and off like we would turn on the lights. They have been with us for a long time and it will take time to come to terms with them. I saw your comment:

Quote:
I'm interested in hearing about things you may have done to speed up the process, not statements about how we must accept this. I don't accept it. I guess I'm just angry. I didn't ask for this crap, and I want to fix it ASAP!

I understand your feelings entirely; you have every right to them. I guess all I can say is that sometimes we have to work with realities that stand beyond our control. No one can tell us we don't have a right to our anger and rage, but what I have learned is that anger just consumes emotional resources that I need for other tasks. Perhaps your experience will be different; mine has taught me that anger diverts me from my task and wastes my strength.

Much love,
Larry


_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#208177 - 03/01/08 01:15 AM Re: Glacial pace [Re: roadrunner]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
BMF,

I too haven't known what to say to this, but I've thought the same things.

Quote:
I'm interested in hearing about things you may have done to speed up the process, not statements about how we must accept this. I don't accept it. I guess I'm just angry. I didn't ask for this crap, and I want to fix it ASAP!


This sounds like the old therapy adage that "the only way out is through."

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

Top
#208336 - 03/01/08 09:39 PM Re: Glacial pace *DELETED* [Re: LandOfShadow]
awakening Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/01/08
Posts: 342
Post deleted by awakening


Top
#209077 - 03/06/08 04:43 AM Re: Glacial pace [Re: awakening]
copenbay Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 127
Hi BMF,

I'm with a lot of the others. I wasn't sure how to respond to your original post, because I wish healing weren't as slow as it is. How I wish it were simply a rational process that could be sorted out quickly without a great deal of pain and the rest of the mess that is humanity.
I read Roadrunner's well-reasoned reply, and agree wholeheartedly that so much of what happened to us centers on the wrong messages we got as children, and the impossibility of dealing with the wounds of the heart in short order. It's easy to think the mind is completely in charge of healing, and that if we can just instill all the right messages in place of the wrong ones, we'll be okay.
But even if our mind had a greater role than it does, it's impossible to know perfectly about anyone else's intentions or heart or thoughts that impact our reactions. Nor can we say that we, as children, even had a chance of processing everything that happened to us.
Though we are adults now, our hearts will not just heal quickly from the pain, even if it's been processed, or forgiven, or dealt with. I referred to the mess of our humanity, because it involves so much imperfection, along with the beauty. I'm not sure, even as an adult, that I'm capable of doing all it would take to speed my healing process, since I really don't think I'm the only one involved.
I've become a firm believer that people heal in community, as well as in therapy, as well as with friends, as well as with God, as well as with outside influences. It's hard for me to say that only one thing will push someone forward in healing, and make it less of a 'glacial pace', since I haven't experienced it that way myself.
Sometimes, too, we believe ourselves to be stronger than we really are. My own pride is very subtle too. It's just another version of wanting something I can control perfectly, or at least pretty well. I wish I could solve my problems by myself, and not need anyone else, but that too would be misplaced confidence, designed to make myself out to be better than I really am.
This may not be a fast process, but through many people's help, our own realizations, God, and numerous other sources too, it does happen. I can neither predict nor control anyone's healing, only hope to observe and affirm when it is happening, however slow it might seem, and hope that others will do the same for me, since I'm just as blind to my own progress as anyone else.
I hope this isn't depressing to you at all, though I recognize the frustration. I've had to learn to be pleased and celebrate any healing that happens and not just shake my fist at God or others or even myself that things don't go any quicker than they do. I hope and pray that each of us, in our own way, displays something inspiring about humanity and living with imperfections and pursuing the best as we move forward, however slow we seem to be moving.

Ed


Top
#209078 - 03/06/08 05:01 AM Re: Glacial pace [Re: copenbay]
copenbay Offline
Guest

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 127
Hi again,

I think I'm saying the same thing as Roadrunner regarding emotions overwhelming reason, though I express it differently. Whether it's 'heart' or emotions, I still have reactions that, if I'm not careful, will be completely unreasonable. My quickest example: I got cut from the staff for a job a few weeks ago, and immediately felt betrayed, though the boss was only doing what had to be done.
I was angry and resentful for an hour or two before realizing that it wasn't anything personal or meant for my harm. And in the past, that kind of thing has put me in a funk for days. So there is improvement with understanding. But I still can't guarantee perfect responses in every situation, even if I have the best possible understanding, because my emotions can, and do, still get in the way of proper reasoning.
For healing to be perfect and instantaneous, we probably would have to be perfect ourselves and those around us would all have to behave perfectly all the time. Neither of those conditions is possible in this life or any world that I know about. I can only try to make the best choices I can right now, and pray that I can help others to make good choices too whenever possible, and not expect more than is possible, for you, me, or anyone.

Ed


Top
#209220 - 03/06/08 09:25 PM Re: Glacial pace [Re: roadrunner]
BMF Offline


Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 60
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: roadrunner

The problem is that there's a huge difference between knowing something and believing in it - trusting it enough that we are willing to use it as a tool in our lives. An example I often use is this one: Suppose you are at the shore of a frozen lake, and you know that with all the cold weather recently that lake is definitely frozen deep enough that you would be safe walking across the ice to the other side. But what if you're wrong? It's late and no one else is around. If you were to go through the ice you would be a goner for sure. So you walk around on the shore - you didn't believe in what you knew; you weren't able to trust it.


Larry, you are absolutely right. Great analogy by the way. I try to measure things in terms of regret. For instance, how much would I regret not bugging out during an approaching hurricane if one of my kids died as a result of staying? This is not the same as not having the courage to weather it out. It's more a matter of "what could this potentially cost me?". I feel like I've held back on my recovery by not being more courageous (it took me a year after I created an account on MS to make my first posting). I don't want to lose my wife. I would regret that much more than the pain of facing my demons. I can survive THAT - my wife saved my life.

Originally Posted By: roadrunner



Our recovery from childhood abuse is similar in that the real damage to us is emotional more than physical. An abused boy learns a ton of false lessons about himself and his place in the world, and unless he receives the professional help he needs those false lessons remain with him into adulthood and can harm him in so many ways.


Definitely. I also think that the endless loop we have playing over and over (and over) in our minds serves to reinforce those messages, forming deep grooves in our psyche. This is precisely why I asked the question in the first place. If we can reinforce the negative messages, can the reverse not also be true?

I'm sorry to hear about your retraumatization surrounding your abuser. Thank you for sharing it with us. I'm embarking on some inner child work, because I also have the same kind of fears.

Originally Posted By: roadrunner

I understand your feelings entirely; you have every right to them. I guess all I can say is that sometimes we have to work with realities that stand beyond our control. No one can tell us we don't have a right to our anger and rage, but what I have learned is that anger just consumes emotional resources that I need for other tasks. Perhaps your experience will be different; mine has taught me that anger diverts me from my task and wastes my strength.


I have actually come to the conclusion that I have been suppressing my anger so much that until recently I rarely ever expressed it. Maybe this is because my martial arts was such an effective outlet. I think I need to express my anger more often so that it doesn't eat me from the inside out.

Originally Posted By: LandOfShadow

This sounds like the old therapy adage that "the only way out is through."


LandOfShadow, this is absolutely what I have had in the back of my mind lately. My wife and I often repeat this phrase. Oddly enough, I only heard it for the first time a few months ago. I like it, because it signifies action rather than avoidance, and I've been the king of avoidance for most of my life.

Originally Posted By: awakening

like you I have felt impatient with the pace of recovery. Sometimes I thought I was there, only to realize how far I still had to travel. At other times, things have gone really fast... almost too fast to process.


awakening, I have also had many times when things were going much too fast. I think that building some momentum in my recovery has enabled me to occasionally stick my head above water, and it seems to be getting better, especially this last year.

Originally Posted By: copenbay

It's easy to think the mind is completely in charge of healing, and that if we can just instill all the right messages in place of the wrong ones, we'll be okay. But even if our mind had a greater role than it does, it's impossible to know perfectly about anyone else's intentions or heart or thoughts that impact our reactions. Nor can we say that we, as children, even had a chance of processing everything that happened to us.


copenbay, I agree with what you've said. I'm not trying to minimize what we've all been through. I think this might be one of the prime reasons that things don't go as quickly as I want them to. Sometimes I don't even know what the hell I'm thinking or feeling - the type of confusion you might expect from a small child. You can't expect to go in the right direction if you don't know which way is up. You have a lot of information in your posting that is probably going to take me some time to digest...



My thoughts are that the more changes we can make, the easier it becomes to make changes, kind of like how kids learn from rote. Starting from nothing (or very little) they learn something, and build on that knowledge.

BMF

_________________________
If a man's character is to be abused, say what you will, there's nobody like a relation to do the business.
- William Makepeace Thackery

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


Moderator:  ModTeam, TJ jeff 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.