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#205724 - 02/17/08 04:42 PM Comments on Posting Guidelines.
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity


"This is a forum in which survivors may express and discuss their spiritual journey as it relates to the abuses they’ve encountered. Posters are encouraged to share in first person narrative how spirituality or “spiritual” persons positively or negatively impacted their life, abuse situation, and/or healing journey. Discussions on a wide range of spiritual topics or belief structures are also welcome.

MaleSurvivor recognizes that a survivor’s spiritual journey is often times something he holds very close and dear. Because of that it is asked that all postings in this forum be made with consideration and respect for other users. Statements that marginalize ANY group or belief structure, or remarks that specifically demean or otherwise target them for criticism, will be subject to editing or removal by the moderators."
*************************************************
Translation: Speak freely about your beliefs, so long as you can figure out a way to do it without anyone holding contrary beliefs feeling contradicted and thus "marginalized", "demeaned" or "targeted" " for critisism.

Lot's of luck atheists. Alright, I'm not saying you always have to slam another belief system to talk about your own, .. but, how do you suppose an atheist such as myself would "share in first person narrative how spirituality or “spiritual” persons positively or negatively (underline mine) impacted their life, abuse situation, and/or healing journey" without making statements that could be seen as ones that " marginalize ANY group or belief structure, or remarks that specifically demean or otherwise target them for criticism"?

Tell me what the MaleSurvivor politically correct way would be to say that i was as much hurt by the shame and fear of Christianity as i was by my abuse and that the two re-enforced each other. How would i go about rephrasing that so that Christians reading it somehow do not think of it as in any way critisizing their cherished beliefs?

Beliefs can be precious to us, but if we really believe those beliefs, words can not threaten them....that's why people and their need to communicate freely about whatever they need to in order to help them recover should, in my opinion be more important than popular belief systems being "sacred cow" subjects.

Hopefully my "Thread For Spiritual Minorities" in the "Open Forum" will be more able to reflect these priorities.

_________________________
My Story
My Art

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#205728 - 02/17/08 05:18 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: blueshift]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
Christianity never hurt anyone but Christians. There are many sad SOB's that call themselves Christians who are in fact evil. Gives everyone a bad name. Try addressing the persons specifically and their actions or behavior with out attacking the the whole group. Lets face it God has some strange and funny kids. I don't blame you a bit for being an atheist. I have been atacked by atheists but I prefer to respond only to those specifec people and not the belief as a whole. Generalities get one into much trouble. I am sorry for you pain.


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#205740 - 02/17/08 06:09 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: blueshift]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
blueshift,

The basic issue here is that we are a community dedicated to facilitating the recovery of men and boys from childhood sexual abuse. Our guidelines are formulated with that aim in mind, and our policy is to ask guys to talk about triggery topics such as religion/atheism in terms of what they think and feel and to avoid criticisms presented as fact rather than opinion.

For example, a statement like "men of faith are idiots" will not be allowed under any circumstances, but nor will similar statements about atheists. Which (if either) of these two viewpoints is correct is not our concern as moderators; the problem is that such statements invite not reasonable discussion about abuse issues but bitter arguments that compound the feeling of emotional turmoil that already troubles many guys coming here. This is not something we can encourage.

Entirely different, however, would be a statement like this: "I have never been able to understand how guys who are sensible in every other way could ever become religious." This statement is different because it allows for a reasonable reply and a dialog among differing points of view.

Also please bear in mind that this site cannot be made a venue for an endless battle over the merits or faults in either religion or atheism as such. There are plenty of sites for that elsewhere. Here our interest is in how various forms of religion or religious expression, including a rejection of religious expression, has figured in our abuse issues in the past and in our recovery in the present. For the record, your statement:

Quote:
i was as much hurt by the shame and fear of Christianity as i was by my abuse and ... the two re-enforced each other


strikes me as perfectly okay as it stands. But you are likely to receive responses suggesting that the shame and fear came not from Christianity but from those falsely claiming to speak and act in its name, and you would have to respect the right of other guys to say that, just as you have the right to state your side of the issue.

By way of general information to all those interested in this topic, please bear in mind the following:

* Providing a trigger warning does not release a user from following forum guidelines.

* Statements like "I need to say this for my healing" do not release a user from following forum guidelines.

* If you feel you have been personally attacked do not respond in kind. Take the issue to a moderator and we will look into it for you. That's why we are here.

* The ModTeam consists almost entirely of survivors like yourselves who have their own abuse issues, families, jobs, worries, etc., and we are spread out over 11 time zones around the world. We cannot promise we will get things right every time or from the very first moment, but we do keep working at it. \:\)

I cannot overstress the fact that this site is not a venue for general campaigns on other subjects, however presented. Those who feel the need to speak out on such matters of course have the right to do so, and the opportunities for that are endless in cyberspace. But here it should be anticipated that the need for guys to be able to talk about their abuse issues in an atmosphere of safety and brotherhood will take precedence.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#205770 - 02/17/08 08:06 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: roadrunner]
theatrekid Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 702
Loc: oregon
Hey Blueshift i consider myself athiest and i apreciate not being the only one here!

But i think for us to be taken seriously we must find ways to talk about religion without just sounding like we are atacking it out of anger. we must have every single thing we say backed up by undisputed facts.... and also i don't think it is appropriate here to confront those that disagree with us simply because they disagree with us. We do have a responsibility though to defend our beliefs and expect the truth from other peoples.

We can have a very good discussion here on our beliefs and how our abuse has effected them.



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#205771 - 02/17/08 08:08 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: theatrekid]
theatrekid Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 702
Loc: oregon
with my above statement still ringing true i do think we can have an open discussion here.

Roger how can you say Christianity has only ever hurt other Christians? The catholic church for example is responsible for loads of bad stuff that happened and continues to happen to those that don't agree with there belief's.


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#205776 - 02/17/08 08:55 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: theatrekid]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
The LEADERS of the Catholic church at times were bastards. No doubt about it. But I have no problems with catholics per se. We have to start addressing and hold accountable the People whose actions betray the tenets of their faith. String em up or do whatever you want to with them. Punish or attack or what ever you are comfortable doing with people whose behavior is evil or malicious regardless of what name in which they perform their meanness. Why is this such a hard concept?

There are people who behave well and people who behave badly. Regardless of the flag they happen to be flying. Believe me Chris, No one has a corner on persecution. I know.

Also there are good institutions run badly by well meaning people and vice versa. What shall we do? We don't need better laws. We need better people. This is what this site is all about. Turning bad into good by helping people rehabilitate themselves from what bad people have done to them.

You Chris, are a great expample of that. I so admire the progress you have made in spite of the sad start you had to life. To become side tracked with critisizing atheist, christians, muslims, jews, gays, straights etc. does nothing but further separate us from our goal of uniting and helping each other heal.

Sure I don't agree with everyone but everyone has a right to his or her beliefs and I would prefer to focus on our common pain and its solutions and then when more centered and less sensitive and defensive from our various wounds go out into the world in a better frame of mind to address these other issues.


Finally, the christian beliefs have been the cause of many a christians death, torture and maim even to this day. In that sense a belief in christianity has hurt the christian who is asked to lay down his life. There is no argument that people in power in the christian institutions have misused that power to kill, torture, amd main in the name of God.

That says nothing in my mind about God. It says a lot of negative things about people with to much power. People in power in the United States Government had done some horrendous atrocities over the years. Should we denounce and nuke the whole country? I think not. Again no one has a corner on stupidity and ignorance. Not even the christian chruch. Trust me Chris it is spread fairly evenly around the globe.



Edited by Freedom49 (02/17/08 08:56 PM)

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#205780 - 02/17/08 09:30 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: Freedom49]
theatrekid Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 702
Loc: oregon
Hey Roger i want to continue this discussion with you in PM i think were going off topic i am leaving now though so i will pm you later or talk to you about in Chat \:\)


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#205829 - 02/18/08 05:09 AM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: roadrunner]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
I don't want to quarrel over beliefs or criticize anyone's religion, but nor do i want to sweep something under the diplomatic rug that deeply hurt me. It still hurts me, just like the sex abuse and keeping hush about it won't make it better.

You don't have to agree with what I say and your welcome to voice your disagreements, but to limit what i can say to only what is noncritical of other's religions limits my ability to help myself recover and protects you from .....what? Criticism of your beliefs? Personally, i want my beliefs criticized if it's real criticism an not just some mindless attack.

But if you don't want to hear it, great! read another forum and let me and like minded people talk about it! Because that's what i'm here for, if anything, to have meaningful discussion about becoming a whole person again.

But it's hard enough to talk about it without trying to keep it all worded up in nice pretty accepting-of-Christianity package. I don't want or expect others to tread carefully lest they say something critical of my beliefs and don't feel it's good for me to have to do it either. That's just the way i feel.

The reason i'm so hung up on this whole freedom of speech issue is that i just don't know how to go about talking about how the religious ideas that i was taught played into my abuse, without saying critical things about religious ideas! And i don't know how i can really help myself if i can't talk freely to someone about that stuff!


So limiting my freedom of speech limits this site's usefulness to me as a tool for healing.

It's as simple that really.



Edited by blueshift (02/18/08 02:20 PM)
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#205878 - 02/18/08 01:59 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: theatrekid]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
Originally Posted By: theatrekid
Hey Blueshift i consider myself athiest and i apreciate not being the only one here!

But i think for us to be taken seriously we must find ways to talk about religion without just sounding like we are atacking it out of anger. we must have every single thing we say backed up by undisputed facts.... and also i don't think it is appropriate here to confront those that disagree with us simply because they disagree with us. We do have a responsibility though to defend our beliefs and expect the truth from other peoples.

We can have a very good discussion here on our beliefs and how our abuse has effected them.
To tell you the truth, TK, i don't think it matters much,(at least to me) how seriously we atheists are taken by believers, as long as we are able to talk each other and support each other, that's what matters to me...but if all us atheists are just trying to keep our mouths shut about our own ideas for fear of offending someone with different ones, then it we have what looks like a disagreement acceptance problem. Disagreements are part of having discussions.

I agree that confronting everyone who says something we disagree with can be counterproductive....sidetracking the issue in question with argument about something said is annoying, but ultimately i have no problem with anyone saying anything here short of blackmail, threats, or malicious deceit. And i don't really feel any responsibility to defend my beliefs....but I do feel a responsibility to defend my right to talk about them and everyone elses right to talk about theirs.

I don't think the Site Guidelines are terribly unreasonable, but the part about not holding any group or set of beliefs up to criticism is something that directly hinders my ability to talk about/work on my issues of religious shame tied up with my abuse. To even say that last sentence, technically is violating the guidelines because to say that i have issues of religion based shame is implying criticism of a religion.

I can probably get away with a lot by over-repeating the phrases " in my opinion " and "I feel" or "I think" to qualify everything as being only my opinion, but that can be awkward and cumbersome when most of the time it's already taken for granted that you are only voicing your own point of view.

I donno. I'll keep trying it out here. I do appreciate that there are other atheists like you who stick it out here. It makes me feel like trying to also.

_________________________
My Story
My Art

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#205893 - 02/18/08 03:30 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: blueshift]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
One of the problems with the discussion about believers and Atheism is that Athiest discussions tend to comprise mostly of saying "this.. is why I don't believe in god" and alot of the "this" is the hypocracy seen in religion or it's followers.
Seems that no matter what an Athiest says about his reason's it will be taken as an attack on believers. Atheism isn't a religion, were a group that discusses why religion is a fallacy to us. Our belief's are just an idea to be discussed, they centre more around what we don't believe in that what we do.

I posted a video in a discussion about religion, it was a video of a horrible Christian person spouting off all kinds of ugly things and she had to be the most intolerant person I've ever seen in my life. Instead of her getting denounced by real and good Christians all I got was "oh great, more stereo types of Christians". They still wouldn't denounce this grotesque person, they didn't really defend her but they did in a way by intimating that I shouldn't have posted the video. Somehow I was saying that all Christians were just like her.

What I felt was the same silence from Muslims about terrorism and the black community about violence. They would rather stand together with terrorists and murders than denounce their own kind. Seems pretty secularist and........static to me. Better to shoot the messenger than admit the problems.

I don't feel like I can have a discussion on Atheism, period.

Stay strong
Mike

_________________________
Thriving

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#205919 - 02/18/08 06:26 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: mogigo]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
I hope your not lumping me in with the "they" you speak of. I agree with what you said about that woman. She is a nut job. But christianity has no corner on nut jobs. They are everywhere and join all kinds of institutions. Unfortunately we don't get to pick the persons who want to say their bigoted little souls are christian, muslim, etc. Oh and everyone wants to complain about the hypocrits in Christianity. Well...where else would you find a hypocrite except hanging out with the genuine article. I am sorry they behave badly but at least they are hanging out where eventually the truth might reach them and help them see the error of their ways. Just a thought.




Edited by Freedom49 (02/18/08 06:27 PM)

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#205964 - 02/18/08 09:57 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: mogigo]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
Originally Posted By: mogigo
One of the problems with the discussion about believers and Atheism is that Athiest discussions tend to comprise mostly of saying "this.. is why I don't believe in god" and alot of the "this" is the hypocracy seen in religion or it's followers.
Seems that no matter what an Athiest says about his reason's it will be taken as an attack on believers. Atheism isn't a religion, were a group that discusses why religion is a fallacy to us. Our belief's are just an idea to be discussed, they centre more around what we don't believe in that what we do.

I posted a video in a discussion about religion, it was a video of a horrible Christian person spouting off all kinds of ugly things and she had to be the most intolerant person I've ever seen in my life. Instead of her getting denounced by real and good Christians all I got was "oh great, more stereo types of Christians". They still wouldn't denounce this grotesque person, they didn't really defend her but they did in a way by intimating that I shouldn't have posted the video. Somehow I was saying that all Christians were just like her.

What I felt was the same silence from Muslims about terrorism and the black community about violence. They would rather stand together with terrorists and murders than denounce their own kind. Seems pretty secularist and........static to me. Better to shoot the messenger than admit the problems.

I don't feel like I can have a discussion on Atheism, period.

Stay strong
Mike


Praise the Lord, Mike, so glad to have another athei..er i mean Christian to talk about atheism...um...I mean Jesus with! Well you can take your chances speaking your mind in my Spiritual Minorities Thread and hopefully it at least wont get removed or something. I remember that video..it was kind of triggering but somehow that made it just that much more funny!
Sure it was a stereotype, but as you pointed out it was a representation of the kind of extremism that is worthy of ridicule.
I don't expect my views on spirituality to be popular or that they won't be criticized but i do expect to be able to put my little 2 cents in and not be threatened with censorship if i'm not trying to do anything but sort through my own damn stuff.
Thanks for your input though..i feel like i have found at least a few like minds here......our numbers will grow...we will infiltrate the power structure and soon ATHEISM WILL RULE THE WORLD, HA HA HAHAAA!






Edited by blueshift (02/18/08 10:06 PM)
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#206045 - 02/19/08 02:40 AM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: blueshift]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Blueshift,

This is perhaps the moment for a few further clarifications:

Originally Posted By: blueshift
I don't want to quarrel over beliefs or criticize anyone's religion, but nor do i want to sweep something under the diplomatic rug that deeply hurt me. It still hurts me, just like the sex abuse and keeping hush about it won't make it better.


In fact your perspective is very quarrelsome indeed; that's the essence of it. Please also bear in mind, as has already been stated to you, that the focus of this site is recovery from male sexual abuse. If religion has been used to harm you that is an outrage, and I object as much as anyone to how narrow religious fundamentalism (in any faith) seems to be allergic to criticism or questioning of any kind. BUT ... this site is not one aimed at healing from spiritual abuse as such.

Originally Posted By: blueshift
But if you don't want to hear it, great! read another forum and let me and like minded people talk about it!


The guidelines for the forum have been stated and discussed with you. They are not there to pursue some one-sided agenda, engage in censorship or enforce "political correctness". They are there to maintain the atmosphere of healing and safety that is essential for the stated purposes of this site. They stand as stated and we must ask that all users of the site abide by them. The rules apply to everyone.

You have been here less than a month. If you check the archive, which is open to you as far back as three years (that's the limitation of our software), you will see that there have been quite a few discussions of the negative impact of the church and religion on individual survivors. That discussion has never been restricted or censored.

Originally Posted By: blueshift
But it's hard enough to talk about it without trying to keep it all worded up in nice pretty accepting-of-Christianity package. I don't want or expect others to tread carefully lest they say something critical of my beliefs and don't feel it's good for me to have to do it either. That's just the way i feel.


You are of course welcome to your views and feelings and yes, you do need to express them. But we cannot provide you with such a venue here. We expect all who come here to be accepting of others on all counts: gender, race, sexual orientation, age, and yes, religion. That expectation is not going to change.

Originally Posted By: blueshift
The reason i'm so hung up on this whole freedom of speech issue is that i just don't know how to go about talking about how the religious ideas that i was taught played into my abuse, without saying critical things about religious ideas! And i don't know how i can really help myself if i can't talk freely to someone about that stuff!


I can't say I have seen much about your sexual abuse issues in your posts over the past two weeks. In fact, most of your posts are strictly focused on the defense of atheism and have little stated bearing on sexual abuse issues. Perhaps the site would be more useful to you if you spoke more about how religious ideas related to the sexual abuse you suffered.

Originally Posted By: blueshift
So limiting my freedom of speech limits this site's usefulness to me as a tool for healing.


You are not being asked here to respect and accept religious ideas for yourself, but we do expect that along with everyone else, including many guys who have as little use for religion as you, you respect and accept that for other guys their faith and religious convictions are valuable and important - even intrinsic to who they are as men and individuals. So yes, your freedom of speech is limited in that sense. If that is a problem for you, then also yes, agreed, this site will be of limited usefulness to you as a tool for healing.

Originally Posted By: blueshift
It's as simple that really.


Agreed. It really is as simple as that.

Larry, aka roadrunner,
For the ModTeam

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#206151 - 02/19/08 01:10 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: roadrunner]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I'm not atheist, but I'm not Christian either...I just come up with what makes sense to me in my heart and mind. \:\)

But I got your -- and the Christian's, and EVERYONE'S -- back. \:\)

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#206228 - 02/19/08 07:25 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: AndyJB2005]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Awesome perspective, Andy. Thanks for that.

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#207240 - 02/25/08 01:19 AM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: WalkingSouth]
zen-boy Offline
New Here

Registered: 01/23/07
Posts: 35
The very labeling of ourselves as atheists, Christians, Buddhists, etc. is at the heart of the problem.


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#207269 - 02/25/08 10:00 AM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: zen-boy]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
The way I see it, this debate has been going on since religion began -- what makes us think we can fix it here on our lonely website? Better to just let people believe what they feel best about in their hearts and just worry about our own personal lives and beliefs. \:\)

The only problem I have with major religions is when they try to impose it on other people who don't necessarily want it. Like changing the constitution to dictate others' lives, for example.

Religion should be a personal thing, and a private thing, I feel. But it's difficult in, say, Christianity, when the whole backbone of the faith is conversion of others and the idea of saved vs. unsaved. I wish more religious people would try to "save" via example, not coercion (ie -- threats of damnation).

I, too, wish that the more moderate Christian majority would step back from the more loud minority and denounce their hateful and small-minded actions. It's giving their whole faith little credibility to many people -- which is why church populations are on the decline even in America. Like me, they leave because they feel they can't in good conscious be a part of the loud minority's church. It's the responsibility of the believer to share evidence and make the case of the belief, not the skeptic, in my opinion. \:\)





_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#207308 - 02/25/08 01:21 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: AndyJB2005]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
I, too, wish that the more moderate Christian majority would step back from the more loud minority and denounce their hateful and small-minded actions. It's giving their whole faith little credibility to many people -- which is why church populations are on the decline even in America. Like me, they leave because they feel they can't in good conscious be a part of the loud minority's church. It's the responsibility of the believer to share evidence and make the case of the belief, not the skeptic, in my opinion.


So well said Andy, the problem I see is that Christian's are letting these people speak for them. Where is you're voice people?

Of course I know that this isn't the majority, do you really think I'm that stupid? but all I hear is this minority. You good, wonderful, needed, amazing Christians have lost you're voice. I don't know why you have lost you're voice, why?

To me as an Atheist, real Christians epitimize what a person should aspire to, but you let a minority of people that I think are a blight on Christianity speak for you.

I believe in the teachings of Christ, I just don't believe in the hocus pocus. Why is this a threat? I believe in you're path but I'm still denounced. I follow more of Christ's teaching than some Christians but I'm sided against simply because I don't believe in a higher power. Shit I think Jesus was probably the most amazing, important man, in human history, but because I don't believe he was the Son of God I'm sided against with people who have missed his message completely.

Ugh, I'm sad

Stay strong Guys
Mike

_________________________
Thriving

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#207311 - 02/25/08 01:37 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: mogigo]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2590
Originally Posted By: mogigo
Quote:
I, too, wish that the more moderate Christian majority would step back from the more loud minority and denounce their hateful and small-minded actions. It's giving their whole faith little credibility to many people -- which is why church populations are on the decline even in America. Like me, they leave because they feel they can't in good conscious be a part of the loud minority's church. It's the responsibility of the believer to share evidence and make the case of the belief, not the skeptic, in my opinion.


So well said Andy, the problem I see is that Christian's are letting these people speak for them. Where is you're voice people?

Of course I know that this isn't the majority, do you really think I'm that stupid? but all I hear is this minority. You good, wonderful, needed, amazing Christians have lost you're voice. I don't know why you have lost you're voice, why?

To me as an Atheist, real Christians epitimize what a person should aspire to, but you let a minority of people that I think are a blight on Christianity speak for you.

I believe in the teachings of Christ, I just don't believe in the hocus pocus. Why is this a threat? I believe in you're path but I'm still denounced. I follow more of Christ's teaching than some Christians but I'm sided against simply because I don't believe in a higher power. Shit I think Jesus was probably the most amazing, important man, in human history, but because I don't believe he was the Son of God I'm sided against with people who have missed his message completely.

Ugh, I'm sad

Stay strong Guys
Mike


I agree. I get sick of the ignorant minority being the only ones heard. I don't know why it is this way, I really don't. If I could find a way to change that I would. I speak up, but it doesn't ever seem to accomplish anything. I think one of the major issues is that this minority has no problem bilking innocent and naive people of their money and then in turn use that money to push their BS version of Christianity. While those who have the proper understanding wouldn't think of cheating and scamming people and thusly don't have nearly the resources that these extremists have.

I see these extremist christians as being little to no different than the extremist muslims you always hear about. They both will do anything to anyone to get what they want. Makes me sick. It's not what Christ taught at all.

I'll go out on a limb here that will have the "minority" against me (something that I would prefer actually simply because I can't stand em) I think that "most amazing, important man, in human history" would hang out in a gay bar long before he stepped a single foot into a huge majority of "christian" churches in this world. And yes, my not capitalizing "christian" here is on purpose. I think too many call themselves "christians" but haven't even bothered to learn what it really means. To them it's just a club to join to push their particular agenda. For those who might disagree with me about where Jesus would hang out, crack the book and read it, you'll find that while He did go to the temple, He spent more time hanging out with those that the religious leaders of His day looked down their dirty noses at. Only problem was those religious leaders were standing on their heads in terms of their understanding, so from their perspective, it was down, while in reality, it was up. In reading you'll also find that the people Jesus had a problem with, the one's he called a "vile brood of vipers" and "children of Satan" were the religious hypocrites who spread hatred and bigotry rather than Love.

So, how do those who aren't heard get heard? I try but like I said earlier, it seems like I'm always ignored or drowned out by the likes of Pat Robertson.



Edited by JustScott (02/25/08 01:38 PM)

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#207313 - 02/25/08 01:41 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: mogigo]
Freedom49 Offline
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We are out here Mike but we get shouted down. We are busy doing the work, walking the walk. Taking care of the sick, comforting the widows and orphans, feeding the hungry. It is easy to yell and scream hateful stuff. It is much harder to work the soup kitchens and shelter the homeless and it doesn't get the same press because it is not sensational. I am deeply sorry those that preach hate offend but that is their choice and they have the freedom to do that. I try not to lump the bad with the good and only hope others like you do the same. Thanks for your post.


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#207325 - 02/25/08 02:39 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: Freedom49]
JustScott Offline
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Good point Roger. I think the real ones do spend more time doing than talking, so yeah, doing doesn't leave allot of time for politics and agenda's. And the "press" idea is true too. What is more likely to get on the news, some fellow screaming bigotry and hatred or some guy helping at the local soup kitchen.

That's the thing about freedom isn't it, it's a two-edged sword. People are just as free to hate as they are to love. Why is it that hate gets more attention than love though???


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#207340 - 02/25/08 03:06 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. *DELETED* [Re: JustScott]
mogigo Offline
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#207341 - 02/25/08 03:10 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: mogigo]
Freedom49 Offline
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Your right Mike. I should post more. Thanks for that. Your a good man.


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#207437 - 02/25/08 10:51 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: mogigo]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Originally Posted By: mogigo
To me as an Atheist, real Christians epitimize what a person should aspire to, but you let a minority of people that I think are a blight on Christianity speak for you.

Who said we let them, Mike? Seems to me they've set themselves up as supposed spokesmen. Christ called them painted tombs that covered up corruption.

I know those are pretty strong words to some, and I've no intention of getting bogged down in a protracted discussion on the subject with anyone here, but it's the way I look at it. Christ spent his time here on earth associating with those who were despised and reviled by the religious elite of his day. Take a look around at those who are reviled by the religious elite of today and you've got the people he would spend his time with now.

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“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#207447 - 02/25/08 11:04 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: WalkingSouth]
FormerTexan Offline
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John, at the moment I have no words for a lengthy answer of depth. Let me just say that what you said makes sense to me.

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List of things ain't nobody got time for:

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#207450 - 02/25/08 11:27 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: FormerTexan]
mogigo Offline
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Quote:
Of course I know that this isn't the majority, do you really think I'm that stupid? but all I hear is this minority. You good, wonderful, needed, amazing Christians have lost you're voice. I don't know why you have lost you're voice, why?


hmph

Mike

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#207488 - 02/26/08 07:51 AM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: mogigo]
JustScott Offline
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I hear ya Mike. I get tunnel vision sometimes too and only focus on one part of a post. It Happens. I hit something, my mind goes into overdrive and I miss something important in a post. It's human I thing.

Like I mentioned earlier, I try to voice what I think, against that minority, but it seems that I'm either stuck inside a sound proof room, or the other people brought along bigger bullhorns. It sucks for sure. If I ever find a way to get louder and actually be heard over those "white washed tombs" believe you me I'll be there in a heartbeat and be there yelling as loud as I can.


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#207610 - 02/26/08 08:22 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: JustScott]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Originally Posted By: JustScott
If I ever find a way to get louder and actually be heard over those "white washed tombs" believe you me I'll be there in a heartbeat and be there yelling as loud as I can.


That's the crux of the matter Scott. I've said these things throughout my adult life, but it doesn't get heard over the folks with the bigger bullhorn. I find myself yelling to no one it seems "Listen to yourself! Do you hear what you're saying? This is SO wrong!" but of course no one seems to hear except those who feel the same way I do. I guess that's typical.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#207653 - 02/27/08 12:09 AM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: WalkingSouth]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Actions speak louder than words. \:\) If a big enough group say like, for example, starts going to MCC churches, and vacates the minority's churches, maybe they'll change the tune or better yet go out of business? I don't know. lol Make a picket sign! Woo! \:\)

http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home

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#207666 - 02/27/08 12:45 AM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: WalkingSouth]
jcf1957 Offline
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I too am not a person who likes to get into a long winded protracted discussion on religion or even politics for that matter. Face to face discussions of this nature are more simpler because you have a better opportunity to read someone's disposition or body language; thus, prudently knowing when to drop the subject. Despite my own familiarity and adherence to my own religious doctrines; I always respect the next person's opinions about their own religious aspirations or lack thereof even if they are negative.



Edited by jcf1957 (02/27/08 12:46 AM)
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Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
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#207672 - 02/27/08 02:21 AM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: jcf1957]
ak Offline
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What religion I am is of no importence at all with who I am or what kind of person I am. I do not so much engage in any religious or politic talks here because what my thoughts on those issues is, they do not change who I am as a person. I am a good person, whether it is because of religion or to spite it. All that matters here is WHO I am, not 'What'.

Andrei


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#207674 - 02/27/08 02:33 AM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: blueshift]
jcf1957 Offline
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Here we go again; I certainly have no qualms with you blueshift other than the fact that you always maintain you have a hardened heart when any topic comes up on religion. Or perhaps more specifically those who hold true to traditional Christian views. Christians by far are not perfect people, history has given witness to that fact. But that's not to say that Christians don't aspire to evolve to be perfect as God is perfect. As per another post I spoke in, I've always had a big problem with people who claim to stand behind the bleak shadows and walls of Atheism. Much of these walls are built from painful sufferings of the past. There are many prominent philosophical conclusions concerning the majority of people who claim to be atheistic in nature, and who are in actuality agnostic. What I speak here is not my opinion. I had an uncle, an extremely intelligent, successful, and wealthy man who always claimed he was atheist despite the fact of his wife being a Catholic. My uncle was also a very bitter man. He hated most of his children, whipping and beating them. It got so bad that two of his young teen-aged children a daughter and son in the early 1960's were institutionalized in a mental hospital and remained there until recently they both passed away. I've always wondered if there passing was a cause of their not being loved ? A lot of people in this world die from not being loved. I'm not going to go into a long story other than to say that last year my uncle passed away. On his death bed who do you think he was calling out to and asking forgiveness for his bitterness and misdeeds during his life. I have no doubt that God was walking with him all through his life waiting for his change of heart. Too many people in this world die without having that chance. Blueshift; you can take or ignore what you will from what I have just related. Why you hate or choose to say God doesn't exist is your prerogative. And I am truly sorry for the painful past you've had to endure in your life. But why hate God ? Is He your enemy ? Many people on this site have tried to open up to you. Why so many hell-bent bitter walls of defence ? I can't figure you out man. Your too closed within yourself. Like a ticking bomb ready to explode. I genuinely wish you well friend.



Edited by jcf1957 (02/27/08 11:04 AM)
_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

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#208269 - 03/01/08 03:47 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: blueshift]
reality2k4 Offline
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I have not read the whole thread, but, I was lambasted for posting images that I thought needed to be shared.

It does not matter what you post as long as it is not inflamatory to others.
Like in Church, you should expect and give respect to others and their views.

Everybody has the choice to view the forum or not, and I think that emotional/seasonal pictures should be allowed,

ste

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#208654 - 03/03/08 07:11 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. *DELETED* [Re: blueshift]
jcf1957 Offline
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Post deleted by jcf1957



Edited by jcf1957 (03/03/08 07:13 PM)
_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

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#208655 - 03/03/08 07:18 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. *DELETED* [Re: jcf1957]
mogigo Offline
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#208658 - 03/03/08 07:29 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. *DELETED* [Re: mogigo]
mogigo Offline
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#208678 - 03/03/08 09:23 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: mogigo]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Huh?

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“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#208694 - 03/03/08 10:17 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: WalkingSouth]
mogigo Offline
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Registered: 04/24/07
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I was wrong John, I talk too much sorry.

Mike

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#208704 - 03/03/08 10:45 PM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: mogigo]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Mike,

You absolutely don't talk too much, and I saw no reason in what you posted that would cause any action to be taken. I do understand the feeling though. It's okay.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#208750 - 03/04/08 08:37 AM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: mogigo]
jcf1957 Offline
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Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 192
Loc: North Of The 49th Parallel
mogigo;
It is me who should be sorry. I should have been wiser to shut my mouth. Anyways I just wanted to apologize friend.

_________________________
No affliction nor temptation, no guilt nor power of sin, no wounded spirit nor terrified conscious should induce us to despair comfort from God.

Today well lived...makes every tomorrow a vision of Hope.
Anonymous

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#210008 - 03/11/08 01:44 AM Re: Comments on Posting Guidelines. [Re: jcf1957]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
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It's taken me a while to get back to this thread...been busy lately. So an update:

When i opened this thread it was in my mind because of some of the warnings i received, that there was a high level of censorship on this site, and, since i had not yet talked about it on a personal level, but was caught up in arguing my views on why freedom of speech should never be limited, so it appeared as though my entire agenda was ...um..well, i'm not sure..atheism taking over MS? lol

Since i opened this thread though i have read a few posts and seen them remain and come to realize this site isn't quite as big on censorship as i had been thinking.

I have been impressed with the restraint i have observed by the mods as far as letting people express what they feel they need to express.
My fears about them were unfounded. Sorry mods. \:\(

I'm glad though that i started this thread because it made me do some thinking about my way of speaking of Christianity as an entity..like a corporation, ..the problem is that it isn't an entity but a large collection of entities--like a corporation, but like a corporation, the entity doesn't usually well represent the will of the majority of it's constituents.

I can see how things aren't much different now in the religion dept than they were in the time when Jesus was dealing with the crappyness of the religious institutions of his day. Anyway, point being that i realize now that it's as stupid of me to rant about 'Christianity' because of the beliefs of certain parts of Christianity as it would be for someone to call
Taoism stupid because of certain part of it's constituency..and there are some silly ones.

Perhaps instead of Christianity i should say fundamentalism, or exotericism...i don't even think that's a word, but maybe it should be..

But i'm really reconsidering whether i should be against anything at all in the world. What's good is what is in harmony with the laws of nature, and what isn't in harmony with the laws of nature won't last anyway. The black and the white will always be together...you might as well learn to love them both if you can.

I think that's part of my fascination with BDSM , but now i really digress.
Peace, love,
Doug






Edited by blueshift (03/11/08 04:07 AM)
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