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#203613 - 02/04/08 11:31 PM National Healthcare would prevent this.......
markgreyblue Offline
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Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
this kind of thing really 'gets my goat'
when i was in canada i saw a doctor at a public clinic because i had hurt my knee -
(they have national health coverage there)
the doctor i saw wasn't full of distraction over paperwork and making money
he was very calm, warm and caring - the money i did pay, since i was not canadian, was still secondary-
there was a small initial charge - and the second visit - (with pre>
_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#203614 - 02/04/08 11:43 PM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: markgreyblue]
theatrekid Offline
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Mark I have to write a paper for my english final this year on health care in America i couldn't agree with you more.


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#203615 - 02/04/08 11:58 PM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: theatrekid]
Hauser Offline
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I could not disagree more.


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#203616 - 02/05/08 12:05 AM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: Hauser]
markgreyblue Offline
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Hauser - I do not know your argument - but what I can say is in defense of this argument - for national health - is that

the mentality of healing - the culture of it - in the canadian system - is endemic and creates a whole other mindset in all walks of life- after living in both 'systems' - there
was much more interest in the individual -

I will say that no system is perfect of course - private health care does support certain things - but overall - the mindset
of national health care -

really worked in Canada - as I saw it.

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#203617 - 02/05/08 12:08 AM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: markgreyblue]
markgreyblue Offline
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I guess no argument is needed - this is just where I stand on the issue - and it still 'gets me mad' when I see people
having no tact/humanity like that nurse because they grow up in a system of non national health rights nor national healthcare



Edited by markgreyblue (02/05/08 12:15 AM)
_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#203622 - 02/05/08 12:43 AM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: markgreyblue]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Registered: 11/14/06
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Perhaps I could've gotten mental health help at 18 or younger rather than 26, and not come inches from suicide, if we had national health care. But hey, at least the Doc's get nice new Benz's. [/sarcasm]

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#203638 - 02/05/08 04:24 AM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: AndyJB2005]
frost Offline
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No offence but as a Canadian, even the idea to PAY for healthcare is asinine, ludicrous even. It's just such an foreign, bizarre, and archaic concept to me. I was born and raised in universal healthcare and its a *fundamental* concept... As sure as I am that red is red and blue is blue and water is wet i am sure that healthcare should be universally available.

Yes, I pay the BC Medical system a nominal monthly fee for coverage but it's nice never having to worry about any of that stuff when going to a free walk-in clinic or visiting a family doctor, or having to go to the hospital. It's also not as though I would lose my coverage for failure to pay on time, either.

Our Canadian system has its flaws though. It's unfortunately somewhat mismanaged and surgery wait lists tend to be longer and stuff but, hey, at least everyone in the country is getting the care they require even if they have to wait for it a while.

I hope I live to the day when dental/mental care is also provided by our system. I personally consider dental health (important stuff, not cosmetic) should be thought of as a medical procedure because your teeth can really have a lot do do with your overall health. Further to that, universal mental health is soooo needed but it seems that isn't on very many official priority lists.

Just a few thoughts. That article drives me nutty as well, Mark!
~Brian

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Boom!

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#203677 - 02/05/08 12:16 PM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: frost]
Hauser Offline
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Mark? About "distraction over paperwork and making money", are you sure you meant THAT or maybe you meant:

"complying with government regulations and billing"?

Anyway, I have some thoughts on this matter.

There once was a time in America that doctors focused on treating patients, without the red tape and threat of lawsuits that are commonplace today. Until the 1960's, Americans paid CASH for medical care, and only had insurance for a major medical crises. The inherent beauty of this system was that there were no 3rd parties paying for services. That means that the patient had a direct incentive to keep the costs down, because he/she was paying for it, not some HMO or government program.

On HMO's, they did not come about because we, the consumers, voluntarily chose to support their model of business. No, they're here because of GOVERNMENT. The HMO Act of 1973 required almost all businesses to offer their employees HMO coverage, and, in Congress's infinite wisdom, it was decreed that only employers can deduct the cost of health insurance, not the individual, (at that time) The unintended consequence of this government meddling? SURPRISE! The unemployed and low-income citizens are left without needed checkups and catastrophic coverage.

Whilst many of my fellow citizens are quick to criticize our current Health Care System, few of them realize that it was IMPOSED on us by FEDERAL LAW.

Do you REALLY consider the solution of "more government" to solve our current system? How about relying on the free market and depending on competition and direct financial incentives to keep costs down? Remember, when GOVERNMENT controls health care, all incentives to keeps costs DOWN are lost.

Also, there is the principle that we're responsible to ourselves first and foremost. I mean, COME ON. Ok, Hey Mark, I just broke my leg. I want you and your neighbors to pay for it. COME ON. Where is the sense in that?

Ok, I'll shut up now. \:\)


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#203680 - 02/05/08 12:33 PM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: Hauser]
markgreyblue Offline
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I hear your points totally about the downside to buracracies.
Maybe if the IRS were disasembled it could be reincarnated
as a national health system - hence no added bureacracy. \:\)

I think something has to change. Happy Super Tuesday (get out and vote!)



Edited by markgreyblue (02/05/08 01:39 PM)
_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#203695 - 02/05/08 01:55 PM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: markgreyblue]
Danbuff Offline
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I also agree we need a National Healthcare plan and it can be designed after a model that works and tweaked to best fit American needs. I recieved medical care three times in a year as an exchange student in London. They looked at me as if I were nuts when I gave them my American Blue Cross Blue Sheild card. There was no charge, for being seen or for the medicine. One time I think I paid about two dollars for a pre>
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#203697 - 02/05/08 02:16 PM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: Danbuff]
Hauser Offline
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I think it would be nice if we all had cell phones (especially the kinds with cameras and video and text message capability) Why don't we make sure that FEMA gives us all cell phones?

I think it would be nice if we all had new cars. Why don't we make sure that the Dept of Transportation makes sure that we all have 2007 or newer cars? After all, they're free right?

I think it would be nice if we all had a Secure Retirement, oh wait Social Security is already taking care of us, forget what I just said.

I think it would be nice if we could all have computers. Let's have the FCC give out computers to everyone (18 and over) Why not? They're free aren't they?

I think it would be nice if we all had our food provided for us. Let's have the Dept of Agriculture hand out food stamps to EVERYONE. After all, it's free isn't it?

I think it would be nice if we all had College provided to us free of cost. So lets have the Dept of Education provide all of us with college vouchers. This way, we could all go to Stanford or Harvard. Why not? It's free isn't it?


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#203698 - 02/05/08 02:54 PM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: Hauser]
FormerTexan Offline
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We already have Medicare and Medicaid, for which I am taxed. The country does not need three health care plans. If there should be any socialized health care, it should be handed over to the individual states to handle. The federal government has no authority in such matters, although admittedly they run roughshod over the supreme law of the land in many other areas already.

With a nine-trillion dollar debt, I want our government to cut back, not add to, the annual budget. But then, what I want is not important to them. All they care about is spending us into oblivion.



Edited by FormerTexan (02/05/08 03:09 PM)
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#203699 - 02/05/08 03:01 PM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: FormerTexan]
markgreyblue Offline
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I want the system, I want the candidate that I like to win.

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#203700 - 02/05/08 03:06 PM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: Hauser]
Danbuff Offline
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Hmmm,
Sorry that you see it that way Hauser, Again with all due respect we are talking about fundamental issues about healthcare. Cell phones, computers, cars and the like are luxuries. Healthcare is a necessity. I might guess you have healthcare avialable to you at some cost. If you do, then count yourself fortunate.
What about the people working jobs at low wages or even $10-11 an hour. They make too much for state sponsored buy ins but don't earn enough to buy insurance out of pocket? What about people who don't make enough to live on but make too much for medicaid? What do they do when they are sick?

They do not get the help they need and go without. I know two people personally who worked all thier lives and have no healthcare. One works full time as a teachers aid but without benefits because she is a temp hire for three years and no chance to step up. She is paying student loans and can't get another one to get her Masters because she defaulted a time or two for econimic hardship. She also works a second job and after she pays the government loans she still takes a bus and has no insurance and lives as a renter. I have a friend who was downsized at age 55. Too old or overqualified, he never found a job. Age discrimination and previously earned too much. No company would hire him because they feared he would run at the first chance to a better job. It is also cheaper to hire a younger person or part-time. He therefore used his retirement to live off of and has no insurance and still does not qualify for his Social security. There is something wrong here. The economy stinks and wages are low and if you don't have insurance like 47 million people are without then that is ok I guess.

50% of all bankruptcies are due to medical bills not covered by insurance. I think it is time we get real serious about addressing this national shame that we stop ignoring the people who fall in the cracks and lose a home over policies that favor big business. I think it was designed to be a government for the people and by the people. It seems only for the the well connected people. Healthcare is not a luxuary and equating it as you did misrepresents the issue.
Peace,
Dan


_________________________
When you stumble, make it part of the dance.

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#203800 - 02/06/08 04:05 AM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: Danbuff]
arronb Offline
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Registered: 02/02/08
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In Australia we have a federally run health system called Medicare - every Australian resident is covered - low income earners earning under $50000 receive free medical & subsidized medications ($5 per>
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Keep Smilin'
arronb

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#203801 - 02/06/08 04:40 AM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: arronb]
Freedom49 Offline
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Registered: 12/30/07
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Loc: Washington State
Anyone can go to a hospital ER at any time and get free health care if they have no money to pay. Illegals do it all the time. there are free clinics all over. Welcome to america. That is a democratic political lie to get votes.

r



Edited by Freedom49 (02/06/08 04:43 AM)

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#203830 - 02/06/08 09:28 AM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: arronb]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
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Loc: Denver, CO
"What's the point of having government if they don't provide for & protect the people their governing."

I'm all for government protecting me. National defense is what comes to mind there. However, I provide for myself. I buy my food. I bought my house. I bought my car. I pay for my trash removal and for my water. My government provides me nothing that I need to survive. Nor is it their job to. I'm ok with that too.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#203848 - 02/06/08 11:44 AM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: FormerTexan]
LandOfShadow Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
It amazes me Americans buy all this silly BS and put up with such a shitty excuse for a government.

The health care system in France has BETTER outcomes than here in the US. And it costs a little over HALF per person as we spend in the US.

Why the hell can't we do that? We could of course. Our political system just won't allow it. The public certainly has wanted a solution for many years, but money is more powerful than democracy in the US.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

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#203852 - 02/06/08 11:55 AM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: LandOfShadow]
FormerTexan Offline
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"It amazes me Americans buy all this silly BS and put up with such a shitty excuse for a government."

Probably for different reasons, but I agree.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#203860 - 02/06/08 01:18 PM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: FormerTexan]
markgreyblue Offline
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Registered: 12/19/03
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one of the more frightening things though about the american system - was told to me by an ex bf -
he said that when he was negotiating a contract between a hospital and an insurance conglomerate - they wanted to make as much profit off of the sick as possible.

they charged in their premiums an average of 6 times over the averaged costs of treatments (with everything included) because - why?

because no one would question them - and they could.

it was all profiteering - 6 times the cost of all coverable costs.





Edited by markgreyblue (02/06/08 01:19 PM)
_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#203862 - 02/06/08 01:42 PM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: markgreyblue]
FormerTexan Offline
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Mark,

I have no doubt they try to profit off of these things. Rest assured, government likes profits too, and will do what they can to make theirs.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#203865 - 02/06/08 02:15 PM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: FormerTexan]
Hauser Offline
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Mark, you just pointed out the weakest flaw in the system, which is that we have 3rd parties paying the medical bills, instead of the patients themselves.

Government started subsidizing schools and college, and the costs of these services are going through the roof, more than double the rate of inflation.

Government started subsidizing health care in the 60's, (medicare) You know what medicare is don't you? It's that wonderful government program that you're FORCED to contribute to, it was promised to help seniors pay for their medical expenses. Well, guess what? Seniors now pay MORE out of their pockets for health care than BEFORE medicare was enacted, and this is rated to the index of inflation.

When you subsidize something with government, the service that receives it gets hooked on it, much akin to a heroin addict. Then the government starts adding hoops that states must jump through in order to keep the money in their budgets. But I digress.

You know what? I'm wrong, I'm totally wrong. If government didn't feed us, and give us medical care, we would have children and old people falling over in the street, corpses everywhere. Forget everything I've said.


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#203866 - 02/06/08 02:16 PM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: Hauser]
Freedom49 Offline
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Registered: 12/30/07
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LOL Hauser, I love you. And I agree with you.


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#203871 - 02/06/08 02:59 PM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: Freedom49]
markgreyblue Offline
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Registered: 12/19/03
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I still disagree.

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#203874 - 02/06/08 03:04 PM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: markgreyblue]
FormerTexan Offline
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Hauser draws a good analogy with education. We subsidize it like crazy, and they still look for MORE money. I see kids peddling candy and asking for sponsorships on athletics. Drivers Ed was free when my sister took it in the late 70s. Now it costs a bunch of money. Students in grade school have to rent their schoolbooks now. Where is the money going?

So, from seeing multiple examples of waste, fraud and abuse, with just one example being named above, I cannot see how a national-government-run health care system will be any different. If the federal government comes up with such a piece of pork, will Medicare be scrapped? What about Medicaid?

What about the law? Does that even mean anything anymore?

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#203887 - 02/06/08 04:26 PM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: FormerTexan]
frost Offline
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Originally Posted By: FormerTexan
Where is the money going?


Andy, everyone.

At the risk of offending people I'm going to chip this in. Please know I don't mean to offend anyone.

Andy I think you ask an important question. One that is simply not asked enough in your country. If I might borrow a quote from Plato,

  • "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato


In my opinion, the US Government is probably the most unchecked, unquestioned, and fiscally irresponsible in the world. Perhaps this is why universal healthcare will never work there. "Where is the money going?" and other questions are just simply not raised enough and as such the US Government rolls on like a mighty machine which seems completely out of touch with the world and possibly even its own people.

For example, have a look at Canada's ill-fated gun registry. It was a pig of an idea and resources, until Canadian citizens brought it crashing down. Another example recently happened at a local level -- the town i live in wanted to build a new library, police station, city hall, all in one big megacomplex. Taxpayers associations raised all hell in this very poorly planned and it was overturned.

I believe other governments are significantly more controlled by the people and thats why universal healthcare works in those countries, like Canada.

Look even at the US medical system. People pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for necessary medical expenses. Has anyone justified the costs of these or is it just what the greedy HMO's and healthcare system deems to be appropriate? Why do medical procedures cost so very much there comparatively speaking? Where does the money go! It seems no one asks because the HMO's foot any bills that are paid. Those who can't afford insurance don't have the resources to ask the questions and are likely rather intimidated for the bills they get.

I dunno. I think I see why such a system won't go over there. Everything else they do is grossly overrun with bureaucracy so it'll probably never change.

~Brian

_________________________
Boom!

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#203888 - 02/06/08 04:29 PM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: frost]
Freedom49 Offline
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Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
OUCH.
Truth Hurts Brian.


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#203893 - 02/06/08 05:09 PM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: Freedom49]
FormerTexan Offline
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"the US Government is probably the most unchecked, unquestioned, and fiscally irresponsible in the world."

Considering the nine-trillion-dollar+ debt incurred by the US government, I'm not gonna argue with you.

Andy



Edited by FormerTexan (02/06/08 05:31 PM)
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List of things ain't nobody got time for:

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#203903 - 02/06/08 06:42 PM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: frost]
GateKPR4 Offline
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Registered: 10/28/07
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Originally Posted By: frost

I hope I live to the day when dental/mental care is also provided by our system. I personally consider dental health (important stuff, not cosmetic) should be thought of as a medical procedure because your teeth can really have a lot do do with your overall health. Further to that, universal mental health is soooo needed but it seems that isn't on very many official priority lists.

Dental it like a major budget cruncher. Even with insurance the work I had done with insurance cost me $2,180 of the of $3,000. yeah I saved some money but I have paid that much and more in the past 5 years. So really is the insurance worth it? It's a joke. The scientists have found that people with poor teeth are more prone to heart problems. I don't think dental or mental health should be treated as separate health care, after both affect a persons overall health.



Edited by GateKPR4 (02/06/08 06:45 PM)
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I'm a normal person dealing with abnormal experiences.
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#204085 - 02/08/08 01:32 AM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: GateKPR4]
LandOfShadow Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
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"the US Government is probably the most unchecked, unquestioned, and fiscally irresponsible in the world."

In the US, people fear their government. In most democracies, the governments fear the people.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

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#204094 - 02/08/08 05:00 AM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: LandOfShadow]
Ikelives Offline
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Registered: 04/10/07
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Loc: Virginia
What is more important people or money? I began to understand that our government's attitudes were changing toward the people when they came up with managed health care. I heard these cute speeches and I wondered, are people listening. They made it sound good and people fell for it. For the first time, a price would be set on a person's life. Of course, this would not be the first time my value had been determined by others. Now it is set by people that I don't even know.

When people care, any government works. When money rules, the strong survive, the weak die. With some this is just fine, eleminates those weak genes from the gene pool and it's more; shall we say, cost effective.

In the end, I don't really know why we are talking about this anyway, I understand that the health care industry does not want universal health care; therefore, it will not happen. Afterall, they did not purchase all those senators and representatives for nothing.


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#204110 - 02/08/08 08:37 AM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: LandOfShadow]
FormerTexan Offline
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The people in the US fear their government because the government has been given waaaaaay too much power. Numerous government agencies overrun our lives. We have a tool to protect us from tyranny should it ever come to that point. It's called the second amendment to the US Constitution. It's a last resort, but there if we need to exercise it. In concert with that, my state constitution provides that citizens in my state may use arms to protect themselves and their property. It's an excellent enhancement to the second amendment.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#204129 - 02/08/08 10:31 AM Re: National Healthcare would prevent this....... [Re: FormerTexan]
dogman Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 12
we were just talking about the second amendment last night and I think that it is good food for thought concerning what has been happening in our country. After world war 1 the veterans were basically dumped onto the street and told to go back to their farms and forget about what they had experienced. of course many of them had lost everything in the time that they were gone and were unable to go back to farming because of emotional issues etc. anyway the point is that all of these displaced veterans began to march on Washington D. C.. several hundred thousand armed men who were trained to kill by the govt itself were heading towards the capitol when the govt in all of its magnanimousnous decided to give them the beginnings of the first G. I. bill. The bottom line is always force. it is a brutal and sad fact of life but it is a fact of life. I worked for the govt for a while in variuos capacitys. Both state and federal and don't kid yourself, the feds purchase the power of the states whenever they want it. That is why there are so many seatbelt laws, They lose their fed funding without them. I can't see myself putting my healthcare into the hands of people who are handling "the war on drugs". I will use medical facilities such as the V. A. But I make that choice on what I think is best for me not on what some damned politician thinks. Another good point that was made in this discussion but glossed over is that the free market once decided how much a doctor could charge for his services. In other words he could get what the people of his neighborhood had to give but no more and he was expected to give service for that! Anyone ever heard of housecalls?


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