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#20317 - 05/16/03 03:36 PM Was it Abuse?????
confused_n_alone Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 31
Loc: Ottawa Ontario Canada
Well I know this one is going to kick me in the ass....

Ok my mind says it was abuse, My therapist says it was abuse; people here tell me it was abuse. Then why didnít I see it was bad when it happened?

It wasn't violent I wasn't forced .It didnít feel bad, I donít even know why I disclosed and confronted him in the first place. It was gentle & caring and he made me feel special and loved.

I hear about all the violent abuse that people here have gone through. And at time I feel that hey!! I must of not been abused I could of stopped it I could of told hell I was asked constantly for several years after my sister was born. I always heard that it wasnít right to be touched like that I watched Movies on prevention ď Safe kids strong Kids ď by this time it had been going on for several years 4 or 5 I think.

I had all these chances to say something Ö and I didnít

Was I craving attention so bad that it didnít matter to me?
I was in my teens and still went back.
Now I am questioning my own sexuality.
I am now married for 10 yrs but I still wonder if I kept doing what I did for so long I must have had alternative motives.

I was with a man long before I was with a woman i.e. 16 but I still went back to my abuser even after that. Knowing that it would probable happen again and almost looking forward to it.

Ok sorry for the length of this post

Really confused_n_alone

Jason

\:o

_________________________
A Jouney starts with one step
A Trip starts With Friends

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#20318 - 05/16/03 03:51 PM Re: Was it Abuse?????
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2260
Loc: Maryland USA
Jason,

If you can see now how it hurt you and continues to hurt you, it was abuse.

The intellectual knowledge might not be enough to feel "convinced." That's how I felt, and still feel sometimes. But the more I learned about the effects, and identified them in my life, the more persuasive the "only intellectual" knowledge became.

Why not try examining your life and your motives anyway? It can't harm you. It can hurt, as in pain, but that's not the same thing. So, try reading/writing here, therapy, etc. If you decide you weren't abused you'll be able to put that notion to rest once and for all. If you come to realize that you were abused, you'll be in recovery already.

And go easy on yourself in any case. Even people that weren't abused don't review their whole lives in a day. Take whatever time you need.

Later,

Joe

_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbrokenÖ"óThe Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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#20319 - 05/16/03 03:58 PM Re: Was it Abuse?????
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Jason:

Abuse is abuse plain and simple. Violent or not. Someone older than you took advantage of your trust for their own purposes. And you were looking for love and affection. That is human nature. It was not your fault.
Quote:
Well I know this one is going to kick me in the ass....
It wont do that jason.

Let me present a hypothetical situation. If the roles were reversed and you were the older person and someone else was the lonely youth I know that you would befriend him as an younger brother to teach and guide to be a better person. Rigth?

Damn right you would.

So now I ask you again was it abuse? Damn right it was. Look what it has done to you.

Even my violent abuse felt good to me. I was useful and wanted and not alone. Talk about mind games. And sure I got an erection and all that stuff. Was it wrong. You bet!

dont let the supposed love and affection misdirect you. That was done on purpose and for no other reason. Had you resisted one of two things would have happened in my opinion.

It would have become forced or you would have been cast aside. You were giving him what he wanted and made to feel that it was ok.
Hope this helps wolf pup

Your brother Mike

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#20320 - 05/16/03 06:04 PM Re: Was it Abuse?????
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
I had all these chances to say something … and I didn't

Was I craving attention so bad that it didn't matter to me?
I was in my teens and still went back.

I was with a man long before I was with a woman i.e. 16 but I still went back to my abuser even after that. Knowing that it would probable happen again and almost looking forward to it.
Jason:

You never had the opportunity or support to unlearn what you had learned from the abuse. That doesn't mean it wasn't abuse it just makes it all the more abusive.

You were abused--don't be confused about it anymore.

You are not alone--you are a survivor among survivors.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#20321 - 05/16/03 07:14 PM Re: Was it Abuse?????
Happy Birthday Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Jason
get ready for your kick in the arse !

What happened was abuse.

Did you feel that ?

IT WAS ABUSE !

the sexual part is human instinct, we get erections, orgasms and pleasure from what happened, that's a fact that abusers know and use to their advantage.
There was nothing you, or any of us could do about that.

What our abusers did was abuse power and authority, they tricked us, lied to us and betrayed us.
They didn't love us, they fucked us.

Sure, we wanted love and affection - they know that and gave it to us, but they gave us sex as well.
And the truth is that the love and affection was a lie, all they wanted was the sex.

Pedophiles who use love and affection can take an extrordinary amount of time and effort to get what they want. Some even marry and father children just to abuse them.
They are cold, calculating people.

You were young, we all were, we believed their lies because we knew no better.

We know better now.

Be strong Jason, come back and talk.

Dave

And the wreckage they left us was guilt, shame and confusion. \:\)

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#20322 - 05/16/03 07:48 PM Re: Was it Abuse?????
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Jason,
Hi and welcome to our den. First let me agree with everyone else......IT WAS ABUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You said your self, all you wanted was attection and he gave it to you. Jason all you wanted was for someone to love you to maybe help you figure out some problems that all teens face. He used that longing for his own twisted sick intent. Ofcourse you went back, he was giving you something no one else was. He was making you feel good. Look back over the years sence the abuse has stoped and ask your self how much of your life was directed by the abuse. How many decitions you have made that was lead by the abuse. Did you ask him to abuse you the first time? I think not. Did you want him to touch you like he did the first time? I think not. Jason think back to the FIRST time he did this to you. How did you feel? Not feeling in your boby, your soul. Where you scared? Where you afraid someone would find out you were having sex with a man? Did you feel even more alone? Did you feel that you could have should have done something to stop him that FIRST time, but what could you have done? Honestly Jason, What were you feeling that FIRST time he started touching you?

Well thats my two cents on that Jason, I hope you find as much suport here as I have.

Be good to yourself Jason my brother wolf.

James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#20323 - 05/17/03 03:47 AM Re: Was it Abuse?????
Marc Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 256
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Jason,

Quote:
Ok my mind says it was abuse, My therapist says it was abuse; people here tell me it was abuse. Then why didnít I see it was bad when it happened?
I could have pointed to any number of quotes in your letter but this is the most relevant to my own. If I thought that I had another personality inside of me I'd swear that it was written by me. I've struggled with the same issue for 31 years since it happened to me. Absolutely in every way it is the same.

Through all the emotions and thoughts in my head that I have had to live with day to day I always thought the same thing. This wasn't abuse. You know, I did group discussions on sexuality in front of hundreds of people and I always told this story. Of how my cousin, who was about 16 at the time (While I was seven), had sex with me. Oh yes, just like you I didn't consider it abuse. Why, it felt good, he was cute, he was my cousin Mark. What a great guy he was.

I was fooling myself all this time. It was abuse, plain and simple. It was coercion, manipulation of a seven year old. I never would have thought of it on my own at that time. I only thought your 'thing' was to pass water through. And gradually, it has eaten into the core of my soul. How does a seven year old boy ever comprehend the power that was given over to him that day? How should he learn to ever control it?

It has destroyed my relationships. My trust wrenched from me. My thought processes distorted into the self tortured person that I am now. Do I paint myself as a victim? Of course not. Not me. I could never! Why, I'm MUCH too strong for that. Besides, everyone else's happiness is so much more important than my own.

This darkness followed me for many years. It's only now on the cusp of a last ditch effort to save my life do I realize the truth in what happened... and give it voice.

It was abuse. And while he could so easily walk away from it all, I've suffered in silence, protected him even. Given license to others to do the same by my words of, "No, I don't look at this as abuse!"

Trust me, this kind of abuse can be so much more insidious than the violent acts perpetrated on some here on the site. They have at least the luxury of hate. Where as guys like you and I live deceiving ourselves of the truth.


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#20324 - 05/17/03 11:09 AM Re: Was it Abuse?????
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
Look back over the years sence the abuse has stoped and ask your self how much of your life was directed by the abuse. How many decitions you have made that was lead by the abuse. Did you ask him to abuse you the first time? I think not. Did you want him to touch you like he did the first time? I think not. Jason think back to the FIRST time he did this to you. How did you feel? Not feeling in your boby, your soul. Where you scared? Where you afraid someone would find out you were having sex with a man? Did you feel even more alone? Did you feel that you could have should have done something to stop him that FIRST time, but what could you have done? Honestly Jason, What were you feeling that FIRST time he started touching you?
Wow James! IMNSHO we could take the names out of these and post them as a mini-article/series of questions that every survivor could look to & ask whenever they find themselves doubting that the hell they went thru was SA. Thanks for sharing these man this is powerful!

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#20325 - 05/20/03 02:16 PM Re: Was it Abuse?????
confused_n_alone Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 31
Loc: Ottawa Ontario Canada
Thanx to everybody here..

In these days that follow the start of my recovery again it is helpful to express myself here my emotions sometimes i don't understand and my wife well she is compleatly lost in all this how one minute i can be so caring and loving and the next running tio the hills not wanting to be close to any one expecially my wife..

My t and i touched on this a bit in our second session why i feel the need to run after we are passionet together or have had a good time together, not right away but several days later i tend to run if its from my feelings or from my wife i don't know

i know i love her i know i love my family and would do any thing for them but i always seem too run and hide not for long but for a night when all i want to do is ignore the world and hide with in myself

Ok i am rambling agin


Confused N Alone

Jason

_________________________
A Jouney starts with one step
A Trip starts With Friends

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#20326 - 05/20/03 07:52 PM Re: Was it Abuse?????
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Hello Jason,

Your first post on this thread hit me rather hard. I know for a fact that I wanted the attention I got from my perp. He was good and kind to me when he was not beating the crap out of me and raping me.

I was not abused until I was 12 years old. Wow, really grown up eh! I believed then and still believe that after the first two or three times that he had me suck him, I liked doing that. I was convinced that someday he would be good to me all the time because I felt that it was such a special moment to suck him.

Had he just once given me a hug and maybe kissed me on the head and told me he would like to do all that stuff, except the beatings and strangling, I am sure I would have been his boy everyday of my life around him. But that never happened. Sometimes, I wonder how it all would have been if it was gentle and loving. I know full well that sexual love between two men can be and often is both gentle AND loving--the real thing.

I used to say that I never told anyone because I was afriad of what the "something worse than this" would be that he said he would do to me.

Maybe the truth is that I didn't tell because I liked the attention he gave me, and I liked most of the whole sexual experience. But I do know that it was not just the violence that was abusive, the whole thing was. He used my neediness to play with me. It got to the place where it was worth the beatings and strangling to have those times with him. He knew I would feel that way. But he never gave up on the thing he knew for sure would make me never tell--the extreme violence.

Someone mentioned that you might want to think of yourself as your perp doing the same thing to a boy that age. Would you then see yourself as a perpetrator of sexual abuse? I think you would. You would also see yourself as that boy, as a vicitm. Perps don't have to be mean and violent, they just have to be in control.

At any rate, as far as you can, it probably would be best to work on being a well and happy man today and see how your mind changes over time, with your questions.

Don't be too surprised that we pounce on you and assure you that you were abused. I think many of us think of you as that boy and by damn we are going to protect that boy. I think that is a good thing because sometimes we still aren't ready to take complete care of the boy we were.

Do you think that you are running away OR do you realise that this isn't going to be like healing a hang nail and aren't you maybe feeling you don't want to do it if you don't have too? Whatever it is, I hope you won't condemn yourself for being a human being.

Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#20327 - 05/20/03 08:00 PM Re: Was it Abuse?????
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
i know i love her i know i love my family and would do any thing for them but i always seem too run and hide not for long but for a night when all i want to do is ignore the world and hide with in
Jason, I know the feeling & the experience... \:\(

Quote:
Maybe the truth is that I didn't tell because I liked the attention he gave me, and I liked most of the whole sexual experience. But I do know that it was not just the violence that was abusive, the whole thing was. He used my neediness to play with me. It got to the place where it was worth the beatings and strangling to have those times with him. He knew I would feel that way. But he never gave up on the thing he knew for sure would make me never tell--the extreme violence.
(((Bob))) that's a gentle hug or pat on the back or wave of love or concern or whatever you can handle my friend. \:\(

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#20328 - 05/22/03 03:29 AM Re: Was it Abuse?????
bowman Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/03
Posts: 72
One of my abusers was my mother, and a lot of times I doubt myself because she never did anything overtly sexual, just had me sleep with her and showering with me until I was twelve,(is there a graemlin for throwing up?) and also making constant sexual comments on my body.
I doubt myself a lot. I think that I'm making a big deal out of nothing, or that I'm some kind of perv for putting the sexual connotation in the relationship.
Here's the thing: when I doubt myself I feel like I have to die, I don't deserve to live, there's something fundamentally wrong with me, I brought all the crap into my life becuase of who I am, etc.....

When I trust myself, I feel like maybe I can be a part of the human race, like maybe I can make the rest of my life into something rewarding, maybe I can build some good relationships, maybe I can be a whole man.

So, for me that's the choice. I literally can't live a life without trusting myself. Right now I can't hold on to this all the time, but I'm working on it.

Jason, be gentle with yourself. Stirring up these feelings seems to be a process that's two steps forward, one step back. Thanks for posting this topic.

Quote:
Bob wrote:
But I do know that it was not just the violence that was abusive, the whole thing was. He used my neediness to play with me.
You are right about it all being abuse. Sexual abuse isn't just about physical pain, its all the other twisted dynamics that play out.

--Ken


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#20329 - 05/22/03 05:39 AM Re: Was it Abuse?????
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
Hey Jason,

It seems to me like they always try to convince you it was all your idea or at least partially your idea. What a bunch of crap.

Quote:
Perps don't have to be mean and violent, they just have to be in control.
My perp laughed at me because when I was twelve when he filmed me for the last time he pointed out that I was taller than him. It was like he was making fun of me for not beating him up as if a twelve year old would beat up his adult neighbor he was taught to trust his whole childhood. This enraged me when I remembered the abuse, because I know now he was trying to make me think I intentionally didnt do anything about it because I knew what I was doing and I wanted the whole thing to happen. What a bunch of crap. I also talked to a guy who was raped who was built like an nfl linebacker, I was telling him that I was shocked that someone of his size could be raped, and I think it upset him because maybe it made him feel like he could have stopped it but just didnt. Not true.

Quote:
Perps don't have to be mean and violent, they just have to be in control.
It helped me alot to remember specifically how my perp and attempted perps when to such extreme lengths to get control over me mentally. I dont know if that would help you, but it helped me, because I didnt feel so bad when I remembered what I was thinking at the time.

Peace
MO Healing


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#20330 - 05/22/03 09:39 AM Re: Was it Abuse?????
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
[qb] One of my abusers was my mother, and a lot of times I doubt myself because she never did anything overtly sexual, just had me sleep with her and showering with me until I was twelve,(is there a graemlin for throwing up?) and also making constant sexual comments on my body.
Ken, one of my abusers, the main one, was my mother. She did a lot of the stuff you mention, but there was also some over stuff...

Here's our graemlin:


Quote:
[QB]I doubt myself a lot. I think that I'm making a big deal out of nothing, or that I'm some kind of perv for putting the sexual connotation in the relationship.
I used to think that too sometimes. But no Ken we're not the pervs...

Quote:
[QB] Here's the thing: when I doubt myself I feel like I have to die, I don't deserve to live, there's something fundamentally wrong with me, I brought all the crap into my life becuase of who I am, etc.....
If you doubt yourself my friend then what else is there?

Quote:
[QB] When I trust myself, I feel like maybe I can be a part of the human race, like maybe I can make the rest of my life into something rewarding, maybe I can build some good relationships, maybe I can be a whole man.
Of course you do. And you can. We can.

Quote:
[QB] So, for me that's the choice. I literally can't live a life without trusting myself. Right now I can't hold on to this all the time, but I'm working on it.
Ken, keep holding on. Keep listening to the right voices, especially your own. Trust yourself.

Quote:
[QB] Jason, be gentle with yourself. Stirring up these feelings seems to be a process that's two steps forward, one step back. Thanks for posting this topic.
Ken you're so right. And thank you for summarizing
this so well & putting it into such simple & powerful words.

Quote:
Bob wrote:
But I do know that it was not just the violence that was abusive, the whole thing was. He used my neediness to play with me.
You are right about it all being abuse. Sexual abuse isn't just about physical pain, its all the other twisted dynamics that play out.

--Ken [/quote]

Yes Bob is right.

In the last couple years I've read all kinds of definitions of what sexual abuse is. They all say pretty much what you're saying, Ken. It's not just intercourse or blatantly sexual acts. It's all the sexual touches, looks, words, exposures, etc etc ad nauseum.

Getting this stuff out of my system is a key to feeling better! \:D

Take care Ken

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#20331 - 05/23/03 08:22 AM Re: Was it Abuse?????
bowman Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/03
Posts: 72
Thanks Victor.

Ken


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#20332 - 05/23/03 11:39 AM Re: Was it Abuse?????
confused_n_alone Offline
Member

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 31
Loc: Ottawa Ontario Canada
when i started this post i had no idea that it would have so much of a inpact here
every body here has been so supportive and i have to take this oppertunity to say thanx to every body that has responded to it..

Confused n alone

Jason

_________________________
A Jouney starts with one step
A Trip starts With Friends

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#20333 - 05/23/03 11:45 AM Re: Was it Abuse?????
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Jason
Quote:
A Jouney starts with on step
A Trip starts With Friends
see jason you are not alone. You are a brother wolf and we are all moving forward together

The Pack be with you. (Iguess I stole that)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOO

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#20334 - 05/23/03 01:26 PM Re: Was it Abuse?????
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Ken:

YW. And thank you too.

Jason:

Quote:
when i started this post i had no idea that it would have so much of a inpact here
every body here has been so supportive and i have to take this oppertunity to say thanx to every body that has responded to it..
That's the power of this place, the people here, and posting here. Thank you for starting this thread.

Mike:

Quote:
The Pack be with you. (Iguess I stole that)
Maybe so wolf brother. But I like it!

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#20335 - 05/23/03 01:49 PM Re: Was it Abuse?????
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Jason supporting eachother is what we do. We lean on one another when we need to, and we let our fellow wolves lean on us we they need to. When I found this board just over a year ago, I was lost, scared, and felt alone. My brothers here post reply's to my threads and showed me that not everyone is out to hurt me. Some do really care about me as a person not an object. You've found a good place. You've found a safe place. Good luck with your journey, your among friends here and we take each step with you.
James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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