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#201289 - 01/25/08 09:04 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: theatrekid]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: theatrekid
Mark evolution is called a theory but it is a theory that has been extensively tested and proven. Science always leaves its self open for new ideas, but evolution through natural selection is considered by biologists to be a fundamental force of nature. the days of is evolution real or not are long since over.


I understand there are many who believe evolution has been proven; and within a species I would say it HAS been proven. But not all scientists accept the theory (and it's called a theory because they can't prove it and change the notation to law, as in gravity, physics, etc). Not to mention for a LONG time the "fact" was you could never travel faster than the speed of sound.

Anyhoo - I can't prove (to your satisfaction) God exists. You can't prove (to my satisfaction) evolution is a fact. That's part of what makes life fun - the ability to disagree, discuss, and yet remain friends.

However for me, personally - I find my emotions are getting far too wrapped up in this particular post, and I stand the chance of grossly misinterpreting what other's have said or intended. So on that note, with all humility and respect, I am going to bow out and let this one continue without me.

Love you all.

M


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#201307 - 01/25/08 11:56 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: FormerTexan]
Danbuff Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 249
Loc: NY state
Quoting Andy
Dan,

"How do people with such unyielding faith often suffer great ills and harm?"

Certainly a legitimate question. In my own personal study of the new testament, I concluded long ago that God never promised me an easy life. He does promise that if I stay faithful to Him, that I will get to spend eternity with Him. But in the here and now, I will have trials and tribulations. God never told me those would go away when I began to seek Him. I know the world seems pretty blasted unjust some days (Hey, I'm at MS, right?), but it would not seem right to save me from all of life's troubles just because I believe. That doesn't mean I will necessarily be left to the four winds either.

Andy


Andy, While I am no biblical expert, my only answer is in the context of "Blessed are those who suffer, Blessed are those who weep, and Blessed are those who are poor, poor of mind, health and so on. My translation and many others who have much greater understanding is that in that suffering, they shall be rewarded in the Kingdom of God or for eternity.

That may seem trite, simplistic and hooey to non-believers but I certainly buy into it. Here are some examples of why I feel as I do.

Having been raised Catholic, I moved into young adulthood rejecting the Catholic church on every level. I would later go on to suffer many injustices. I would rail against the church and especially God. I was injured and bitter. I was inconsolable and felt justified. I used to mock the Pope. I hated all religion.

How could God have allowed his so-called leaders and representatives to create rules, engage in actions they did. How could the Vatican have such wealth? There were many actions and dogma that felt opposite of the Christian teachings. I was angry at my life. I was sexually abused, and mistreated inuntold ways. I suffered insecurity, confusion and rejection. I felt unloveable, unworthy and isolated from this so-called joyous life.

My background was one thing, then as an adult, life was harder still. I suffered social injustices, nothing seemed to go my way. I was gay and rejected. I got AIDS, I battled a corporation in federal court, my friends were dying, my employment was lost and a future seemed non-existant. I was a victim at every stage in my life. How could this be? Why did it happen? Why me God? Why? Those are some of the reasons I was angry and hurt. I hated living and the conlict seemed unending.

In desperation, at the brink of suicidal despair, I went to see a priest who was as cold and clinical as they get, I later learned he was a church attorney. He seems an attorney first and priest second. I trusted and believed in no one and nothing.

Fortunately, my path crossed with a gentle loving man who offered to help me. He recognized my brokenness and began to work with me. He was educated, a social worker and therapist and he was gay. We began to work and he made a number of statements about God's love and forgiveness. I was skeptical but at least someone was listening and genuine. I have since come to believe we met by purpose and design. It was not by coincidence. It was God at work. Why doesn't it happen to everyone? I don't know but maybe it has and they resisted or maybe it never will. It remains a mystery. But I met someone who really wanted to help me. He knew I was desperate.

So began a new chapter in my life. I recieved therapy, I found a trusted ally, and began to break down my walls of defense and bitterness. I started prayer. I had ups and downs but help was patient, tolerant, understanding and I began to feel a connection like I never knew. My curiosity grew and my desire to change and continue seeking help also grew. I slowly began to trust.

Along the way, I began to see things differently. I am not the only one who ever suffered, felt unloved, rejected or different. My pain and suffering was never minimized or compared. My T never allowed that and he would not allow me to do it either. I have learned that anyone who suffers and has problems cannot compare them to the plight of others who have even less or suffered more. Pain and problems that we suffer are as horrific and traumatic to us as individuals as we experience it. And what we suffer is as painful to that of those other people we see worse off.

Over time, I listened to examples and stories of lives of martyrs and saints, who lived in pain and suffering that seems unimaginable. They became spiritual examples, leaders and others lived humble lives in spite of their pain. They were examples and inspirations. The common thread was they all suffered greatly but had enormous faith in God and managed humility, displayed great love and kindness or did small but wonderful things in those lives even while suffering continued. I was and still am inspired by them. I began to search for meaning in my own suffering. I tried not comparing. I did find some profound similarities in all of those inspiring people. They loved God, believed in His love, His mercy and accepted all that challenged them. It still amazes me. Then I began to read>


Edited by Danbuff (01/25/08 12:38 PM)
_________________________
When you stumble, make it part of the dance.

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#201322 - 01/25/08 01:07 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Danbuff]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 10948
Loc: Denver, CO
Thanks, Dan. I am totally all about the freewill concept.

A

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#201590 - 01/26/08 05:49 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: FormerTexan]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity


Part of being a human is having a mind that works in such a way that we must understand things in terms of relative explanations.

Relative explanations work fine for us in matters that are themselves relative. Why did Tom go to the store? To get a gallon of milk. Question answered.

But when applied to matters absolute, they can never reach a conclusion that does not call for another relative explanation.

When we humans asked the question "What is everything made of?", we started examining matter and finding smaller and smaller particles that make up matter. But at some point we have to ask, At what point does the question "what is it made of?" get answered? since every time a smaller particle is discovered the question comes up once again.

The same problem arises when we ask how we came to be here. We can say that some powerful, intelligent being created us, but if we say that our existence demands a relative explanation such as that, it really doesn't make sense to say that that explanation doesn't also demand a similar explanation and again, where does it end?

I have no wish to convince anyone who draws strength from their faith that there is no God. But it's clear to me that the OP here is being further victimized by beliefs that do not explain or give relief or meaning to his suffering. Only more shame and confusion.

The universe is creative and it's intelligent. These aspects of the universe, like the universe it's self, have no source or origin, they simply are. Things are as they are because that is the nature of existence. To attempt to explain it in relative terms is like trying to explain love in mathematical terms.

We can't "understand" the universe because understanding for us means being able to analyze it in relative terms. But existence it's self isn't relative it's absolute. It's of it's self so. In other words, it just is.

But there's no weakness in human thought that can't be used and religion has been used for centuries to control the masses with the promise of eternal reward and the threat of eternal punishment (which, if you think about it, defeats the whole idea of punishment which is supposed to be for the person's ultimate good--though whether it really is is debatable).

I'm sorry if this opinion offends anyone. That wasn't my purpose in stating it. My purpose was to share the realizations that gave me freedom from old ideas that no longer served me with someone who seems to suffer from them as i once did.

















.





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#201659 - 01/26/08 11:48 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: BJK]
Dude. Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/26/08
Posts: 106
Loc: USA
After what happened to me, I don't believe in god. I grew up in a Morman church and they teach that god protects his children.

Well, he didn't protect me.



Is man one of God's blunders, or is God one of man's blunders? ~Friedrich Nietzsche







Edited by Dude. (01/26/08 11:48 PM)

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#201664 - 01/27/08 12:03 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Dude.]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
I am so sad that happened to you Dude. I dont blame you for the way you feel. My perp was a preacher and my father, but if it wasn't for God I think I would be dead now. That is just me. You experience I am sure was different. HUGs


Roger


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#201668 - 01/27/08 12:15 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Dude.]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
I'm sorry...i'm going to end up saying things that will piss people off. I think i better keep myself from any more posts on this subject.


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#202623 - 01/30/08 03:26 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: BJK]
diesel Offline
New Here

Registered: 01/29/08
Posts: 3
I am dealing with these questions myself. God may not be directly responsible for my abuse... and yet if he is God than he is in control of everything and must have allowed it. I think of Job (which I've read alot) and how he was answered for questioning God and getting angry... I still have these deep need to make sense out of what happened... to know that there was a purpose or reason... I don't want to think that I went through my csa... just b/c people are evil or b/c shit happens. If there is no plan, no reason, then I would have no purpose to keep pressing on.


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#202747 - 01/31/08 07:02 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: diesel]
buzz_key Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 635
Loc: USA
good points diesel.


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#202756 - 01/31/08 08:12 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: buzz_key]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2568
My purpose in what happened to me is that I'm going to do everything in my power to help others dealing with this. If I can get up the courage I want to start pushing for awareness in my area, as MS support is next to nill.

Just a few things I've found for purpose.


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