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#202415 - 01/29/08 09:31 PM Who's Fault is This??
Still Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6597
Loc: Never Sugar Mountain
I've got a question:

When did CSA become a "Christian issue?" And dont tell me it was the catholoic church scandals...cuz that's not in debate in this forum and on this site.

Why dont we blame the IRS for not protecting us. I mean they take tons of our money from us every year...why aren't we pissed with them for our CSA?

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#202426 - 01/29/08 10:07 PM Re: Who's Fault is This?? [Re: Still]
roadrunner Offline
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Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Rob,

Here's daft me flaunting how oblivious I can be, but okay, not for the first time!

I didn't know that CSA is in itself a Christian issue. The "why did God let this happen?" issue is a much larger question about human suffering in general; it's not just about survivors of CSA. One could look at Jewish reactions to the Holocaust, for example, or even the Book of Job. I have a good friend who suddenly lost her 16-year-old son to a rare heart condition last year, and her "why" questions are very similar to the ones I used to raise.

There are specifically Christian options in therapy, but there too that's part of a broader phenomenon in American (not Western) society: the emergence of a powerful Christian right wing in social and political thinking.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#202429 - 01/29/08 10:18 PM Re: Who's Fault is This?? [Re: roadrunner]
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WHY DID GOD_____(your issue here)___________ ?

Where does God's responsibility begin and end?

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Objects In Mirror are Less Than They Appear.

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#202430 - 01/29/08 10:18 PM Re: Who's Fault is This?? [Re: Still]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity

"When did CSA become a "Christian issue?" And dont tell me it was the catholoic church scandals...cuz that's not in debate in this forum and on this site."

Who said it was? You can't discuss CSA as an isolated thing. It is connected to every aspect of our lives, and every aspect of our lives is connected to CSA. That doesn't mean that it's a "Christian issue."




Why dont we blame the IRS for not protecting us. I mean they take tons of our money from us every year...why aren't we pissed with them for our CSA?


From my point of view, people on this site can be pissed at anyone they please. They can even be pissed at me if they want to. That doesn't mean that i'm going to accept responsibility for it or apologize, but neither would i take personal offense.

There was a person in another forum who shared feelings that people took as blaming homosexuals. I am bisexual. Still, even though he said things disrespectful of gays, i took no offense and all my communications to that person have been supportive and respectful because he is here for help and his feelings are his feelings.

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#202434 - 01/29/08 10:27 PM Re: Who's Fault is This?? [Re: blueshift]
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Dont read anger or such into my question. Its genuine and I ask it in a peacful manner...not to pick a fight.

I'm wondering how people relate their CSA's blame to Chritianity sometimes. Its pretty darn clear that some people are genuinely pissed-off with God, Christians, "the church." Its a connection I dont conclude.

If this is one of those sacred-cow topics, say so..or maybe you already have.

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#202449 - 01/29/08 11:22 PM Re: Who's Fault is This?? [Re: Still]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
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I'm sorry if I'm seeming defensive. I posted things about religion that pushed some buttons, so I probably was over defensive.

At the risk of pushing more buttons, i'll answer that regarding my perspective.

Though Christianity is not responsible for my abuse, i feel that it is responsible for my CSA, i feel it is responsible for my feelings of guilt and shame that my abuse caused me insofar a it is responsible for my being taught that sex is a dirty shameful thing that must never be done except by a married man and woman who want to have a baby.


When i was raped, in my mind, i had allowed someone to make a sinner out of me and the fact that at some point it made my penis hard meant that i was a homosexual; i was an "abomination before God" .
Perhaps i should blame this on the people who taught me these things, but they taught me that because they had been taught that and that was their beliefs.

If I had not been taught what i was taught i would not have been set up for what happened to me to be a dark shameful secret that everyone would be disgusted by if they knew. I wouldn't have had to repress the memories just so i could stand to go on living without someone finding out.

PS.
There are no sacred cow topics to me, but people are extremely sensitive about their spiritual beliefs, and i think it's impossible for an atheist like me to speak at all on the subject without stepping on toes.



Edited by blueshift (01/29/08 11:27 PM)
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#202485 - 01/30/08 01:05 AM Re: Who's Fault is This?? [Re: blueshift]
theatrekid Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 702
Loc: oregon
I don't feel like abuse is a Christian issue or a religious issue at all. I do see how some religious beliefs have helped shape views on sexuality in our society. Things like sex is dirty so we are dirty if we do it. such thoughts prevent kids from coming out because of the fear of being made a "freak" in there own home family and community.

I also see were people who have power inside churches some times use that to take advantage of people, but to say this only happens in churches would be very wrong. it happens in all groups were there is a power structure business, military, schools, the list goes on and on.

I see lots of abuse happen in very strict fundamental religious groups. Groups that put alot of emphasis on the male being in charge of the family and community instead of sharing that power equally, seem to have higher rates of abuse.

Again i don't think to blame these abuses on the idea of god or christianity is appropriate. i think blaming it on the people who interpret the idea makes a lot more sense.


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#202532 - 01/30/08 08:40 AM Re: Who's Fault is This?? [Re: blueshift]
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Originally Posted By: blueshift
When i was raped, in my mind, i had allowed someone to make a sinner out of me and the fact that at some point it made my penis hard meant that i was a homosexual; i was an "abomination before God" .

Perhaps i should blame this on the people who taught me these things, but they taught me that because they had been taught that and that was their beliefs.


Perhaps you should blame the perp?

Perhaps you should blame a broad societal condition that caused both you and I the unfounded shame that drove our destruction.


I see what you guys are saying. There is apparent hypocracy inherent in the very position the church (general) has in the community. That is as "arbitor of morality."

It IS interesting...the damage done to Christianity via the Catholic Church scandals and horrid abuse by those in trusted power in the broad church community.

Having come from a politically charged and involved home I can tell you that the media created the wrong perseptions FOR the church in classic style. The Cacholic scandals only bolstered their destruction.

If they (the media) wanted to really uncover the locus of control and a huge source of CSA...they'd have to get up enough political courage to examine the public and private schools of this nation.

For example, look at the blind eye the media turns to deaths related to cigarettes (over 400,000/yr) and then look at the hysterical treatment of firearm-related deaths: In the U.S. for 2001, there were 29,573 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 16,869; Homicide 11,348; Accident 802; Legal Intervention 323; Undetermined 231.(CDC, 2004)

Since I had a conversation with a member here who worked on a documentary about school-based abuse, I've been researching it. The public knows not even a molecule of reality surrounding school-based abuse. THAT is the REAL story of CSA and the media wont touch it...just like cigarettes.

But I DO feel as if eyes dart over to the American Christian Church with an antogonistic glare when it comes to CSA....and I just don't see that the Church owns one ounce more of its share of responsibility than the Post Office or the NCAA. It is a humanity problem...not an instituional one. Or even worse...its fassionable and easy to place undue blame on Christianity.

Sorry if this got people's blood pressure up. I just could not stand by and let Christianity take another beating without stepping-in to ask "based on what?"

_________________________
Objects In Mirror are Less Than They Appear.

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#202599 - 01/30/08 01:50 PM Re: Who's Fault is This?? [Re: blueshift]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
blueshift,

Originally Posted By: blueshift
Though Christianity is not responsible for my abuse, i feel that it is responsible for my CSA, i feel it is responsible for my feelings of guilt and shame that my abuse caused me insofar a it is responsible for my being taught that sex is a dirty shameful thing that must never be done except by a married man and woman who want to have a baby.


I accept that for you this is an issue relating to religion, but for me it isn't, even though I was abused by a man who used his position in the church (Presbyterian, btw, not Catholic) to silence me and keep me compliant. Here's why.

Opposition to homosexuality is common to many religions and cultures and probably goes back to primitive society, where it was important that mature males breed with the females so as to produce children and ensure the survival of the group. How do you achieve that? You honor men who have large families and you shame the ones who don't, or those who are attracted to other men.

Later on that was no longer necessary, but honor/shame continued to be a powerful tool to use against same-sex sexual contacts. Religion just takes that and sharpens its focus by identifying it as the ultimate shame and blame - an offense against God.

If we look at it this way it's pretty easy to see that this kind of thinking in Christianity is just one version of a prejudice we find in lots of other religions, and in belief systems that are not necessarily religious.

What's surprising (to me, anyway) isn't so much that it exists in Christianity as the fact that in less than 50 years so much progress has been made against this prejudice in the West, in the face of strong religious and social opposition. That's of course not to minimize the obstacles and problems that GLBT people still face.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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