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#202342 - 01/29/08 02:54 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: TJ jeff]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2572
I think this will be the only time I weigh in on a topic like this, as it's this kind of thing that has had me avoiding this particular forum except for on a few occasions. I came to MS to heal, not to get involved in apologetics.

Allow me to start with this: I am a Christian. I will echo TJ Jeff in that I do not believe that my beliefs are hurting me.

I'm also cautious about saying I'm a Christian. I prefer to say that I'm a follower of Christ. Typically if you say you are a Christian, you are automatically labeled as a gay hating, ignorant, closed minded bigot. I am none of those things. My actions prove that.

I am a Christian, but do no hate gays. Truly, I have felt the desire to be close to other men. I understand those feelings, but have never fulfilled them. Nor do I hate atheists. One of my best friends from High School, one I can say that I love like a brother and would do nearly anything for, is not only an atheist, but he is also gay.

I agreed with one of the points you made in your initial post Blueshift (forgive me if I quote this wrong as I can't currently refer to your original post), that one about people who use their beliefs to hurt and victimize others. Nothing makes me angrier than so-called Christians parading around saying "God Hates Gays" or anything like that. Downright pisses me off. I've said here in the chatroom, while hanging out in the Mo's on a mission room, that I wish those gay-bashing Christians would actually open the bible and read it.

If they would study Christ's life, the only people he ever attacked and had a problem with were the pompous religious bigots that used their beliefs to look down on others. He showed nothing but love and compassion for the people that the Religious of His day insisted he shouldn't associate with. I don't remember who wrote the song, but I really liked it. It's basic idea was that if Jesus lived today you wouldn't find Him in any of our churches, he'd be hanging out in bars.

I'm sorry you were hurt by those who used their beliefs to further victimize you. Their actions are a travesty to everything Jesus taught. I understand you're anger. I'm angry too. Remember my good friend I told you about? I stood with him, even after the church we attended drove him out because he dared to share with the pastor about his feelings. He wanted assistance and help in understanding his feelings, all he got was rejection. No Christ like love there. I'll never step foot in that church again. If I ever happen to cross paths with the pastor, you'd better believe I'll have more than a few choice words for him. He's a pharisee. No different than those Jesus called a brood of vipers. Wolves in Sheep's clothing. Devils in angel's garb. Even typing this has me filling with rage and anger at them.

I'm a Christian. I believe those who hurt you and villinize gays are just playing at church and have not a clue about anything that Christ taught.

I've said my peace and my thoughts. I'm done.



Edited by JustScott (01/29/08 02:55 PM)

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#202351 - 01/29/08 03:44 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: JustScott]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
To address the question of how Christianity hurts people, I would say that believing that yourself or anyone else has any possibility of being tortured in hell for ever and ever is hurting you and possibly others.

If you believe that your natural sexual desires are "sinful" whether they be straight, bi, or gay, or that anything you do or feel is something that makes some kind of black stain on your soul that must be cleansed, that is hurting you and possibly others.

If you believe that there is a force in the world that is not just one of ignorance or selfishness, but is pure "evil" that is out to get you, that is hurting you and possibly others.

If your trust in religious leaders allows those leaders to take advantage of your faith to hurt you that hurts you.

If you feel that you can not question your Christian beliefs or explore other belief systems or philosophies without offending God, that hurts you and possibly others.

If you believe that morality is as easy as following a book (the bible)like a Betty Crocker recipe, instead of applying your own intelligence and feelings to each unique situation, that hurts you, and possibly others.

I could go on, but this is enough for now. I do realize that not all who call themselves Christians hold these beliefs and, contrary to what has been charged, i don't lump all Christians into one category or stereotype. In my post i was speaking in general terms about the more prevalent forms of Christianity. I do admit that i did not make this clear to begin with, so i understand the misunderstanding.

I would also like to reiterate that attacking a set of beliefs does not equal attacking or judging the people holding them. Believing something does not make you a bad person any more than not believing something makes you a bad person. If you hurt yourself or others because what you believe makes you think that that is the right thing to do, the fault is still in the beliefs not the person holding them.

Do i feel that people who hold these beliefs i criticize are less intelligent or inferior in any way? NO because it is the human condition that it is very hard for human beings to think about such matters without the natural limitations of human thought. As i said in another post, we are all conditioned to understand everything in relative terms and that predisposition causes it to be very hard to accept absolute answers to questions dealing with non relative reality.



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#202352 - 01/29/08 03:56 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: blueshift]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
I am also a Christian - and I agree with every point you made except the one about pure "evil". I think knowing my enemy makes me wary and wise.

but that's just me.

M


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#202356 - 01/29/08 04:27 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: MarkK]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
One other thought i would like to add here..

Which would be the biggest danger in this forum:

A few people facing the fact that there are others who disagree with their beliefs... or..

Everyone on this forum feeling as though only opinions in agreement with or sympathetic to Christianity are acceptable.

Certainly, if i said something like "Christians are all morons." or something like that, that would be way out of line. But speaking as i did about the negative effects of my religious upbringing and how it made my abuse that much more hurtful to me is about my own issues and about beliefs...not about people.

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#202440 - 01/29/08 10:54 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: blueshift]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Originally Posted By: blueshift
I would also like to reiterate that attacking a set of beliefs does not equal attacking or judging the people holding them.

As moderator on this forum I'd like to offer a suggestion, blueshift. I would never come in here, to use your words, "attacking" the "sets of beliefs" of Christianity, Taoism, Atheism, Agnosticism, Buddhism, Hinduism or any other faith based ism or other religious faith. I take that stance because I believe a person's faith is such a precious thing to him and as such I choose not to attack something so close to what he regards as a part of himself. I don't feel I have the right to do that. Might I suggest you adopt that principal as well? There's really no need and it's not what MS is all about.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#202494 - 01/30/08 01:42 AM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: WalkingSouth]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
As an athiest myself i must say that we are without a voice. Simply by the fact that since I don't believe in a god it seems to be "offensive" to many peoples belief's. Some people take it much too personal. Then again, discussing why Christianity should not be believed IS an offensive subject to Christians. There really is a no win situation. While many atheist's do resort to calling believer's "idiots", a thought I do not share, after all I believe in love because I need to believe in love. Not really any "proof" of it, love could as easily be called possessiveness. But really the problem is you don't see too many Athiest's saying that others are sinners or evil.

I know that religion and belief's are a sensitive subject but I really have been attacked by many, my entire life, because of my beliefs. And they ARE my belief's. Which is just as offensive to me that believer's feel they need to tell me I'm wrong. As offensive as someone telling a believer they are wrong.

I feel that neither of us should have to explain why we think the other is wrong, if we are secure enough in our belief's then it doesn't matter what the other thinks. Attacking another belief system will not make ones belief system any more "right".

Christians are the majority though, they are the dominant set of beliefs, and they have attacked people like myself with far more anger, vitrol and hatred than Athiests have towards Christians. We don't have a book somewhere proclaiming Christian's sinners and evil. We might think you're misguided, and I would offer that you thinking I was misguided would be very natural. But Christian's find it offensive that some us think that others are misguided. Misguided is not a far comparison to sinner. We've had a very hard time trying to defend our belief's compared to you.

Lastly I believe in the teachings of Christianity as a man made system, I think if it's followed faithfully it is a "good" belief system, sadly I don't think there's a whole lot of that happening, I really thought one of the main points was tolerance. But really it's for me to decide who I like or don't like, whichever belief system one may hold.

I think maybe some Christian's that I do like maybe need to step up a little more though when people like the lady in the video I posted do spout their drivel, so I can feel a little more comfortable believing in my own set of belief's without someone calling me a sinner for them. I have been under attack for quite a while now.

Mike

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#202502 - 01/30/08 02:55 AM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: WalkingSouth]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
" I would never come in here, to use your words, "attacking" the "sets of beliefs" of Christianity, Taoism, Atheism, Agnosticism, Buddhism, Hinduism or any other faith based ism or other religious faith. I take that stance because I believe a person's faith is such a precious thing to him and as such I choose not to attack something so close to what he regards as a part of himself. I don't feel I have the right to do that. Might I suggest you adopt that principal as well?"

Sounds like you just did. May i suggest that we all just be free to express our views whether they are Christian, Taoist, Atheist, Agnostic,Buddhist,Hindu, or any other faith based ism or other religious faith without feeling like if someone disagrees with us that we have then wronged them?

For talking about the impact of my religious upbringing on my CSA issues, i have become an "attacker" now.

It's been fun guys. I'm outa here..

Thanx to all on this site who showed true tolerance and support.

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#202607 - 01/30/08 02:12 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: blueshift]
TJ jeff Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 3362
Loc: Northern Wisconsin
if it feels like I've been "attacking" in any way - I sincerely appologize for that - that is not my intention at all - anyone who really knows me knows that I am a person who is always seeking to expand my level of understanding

do I believe in God? - yes

am I offended if someone else does not believe in the God that I do - no

do I claim to understand all that there is to understand about religion/spirituality - heck no...

Am I open to others thoughts... yes (just because I don't instantly agree with anothers views does not mean that I am not open to them)

_________________________
Who will cry for the little boy? - I will... - Antwone Fisher

Abuse happens in silence/isolation - Recovery happens only when that silence/isolation is broken...

TJ's History

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#203003 - 02/01/08 09:05 AM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: TJ jeff]
weapher Offline
Guest

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 60
Loc: Oregon
wow...

Sorry I didn't stop by the site for a week. Pretty powerful stuff going on here. The only thing I would add to this rant is the old adage..."one reaps what one sows."

If we go around reaping hate and discontent it will return to us. If we reap love and understanding it will come back to us as well. This is a characteristic of humanity and doesn't matter what religion we are.

BS- if you don't mind me calling you that... Good Luck.

weapher

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Facing the struggle makes you strong.

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