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#201687 - 01/27/08 02:44 AM Blueshift's rant
blueshift Offline
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I have deleted what i originally posted here because apparently it was found to be too ridiculing. I do want to say here that it was not intended to ridicule anyone on this site for holding certain beliefs. If anyone interpreted it that way, i apologize. The intent of this post was to vent my frustrations regarding aspects of Christianity that i feel are hurtful to human beings and the opinions i expressed were directed toward beliefs not people who hold them.



Edited by blueshift (01/29/08 12:34 AM)
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#201698 - 01/27/08 07:45 AM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: blueshift]
Danbuff Offline
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All I can say is I remeber feeling this way... I let it all go.

Like Mother Teresa said "In the end it's between me and God".

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#201707 - 01/27/08 09:07 AM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: Danbuff]
Lazarus Offline
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Blueshift, I couldn't agree with you more. If you study the Book of Job (which tells the story of the battle between good and evil) you can only come to the conclusion that the reason God allows evil to exist is to insure mankind's love of Him is pure and unselfish. If there were no evil, nobody would have any reason NOT to believe in God, and therefore would praise him only when they wanted his divine help. So, he did not kill Satan but only banished him, allowing him to still work his evil ways, so that through mankind's suffering and agony, God would know that the ones who still believed in him were believing in him For The Right Reason...

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/12576.htm

"The Book of Job asserts that God acts for a reason for creating that evil. That reason is not punishment or character development. That reason is creation of a certain type of relationship between God and man. Evil is morally necessary to allow selfishness and selfless love to develop separately so that man can selflessly love God. If human beings know with certainty that God rewards those who love him, then human beings might be tempted to use God for their own ends. Selfishness corrupts selfless love. This claim is advanced through declarations by the author and by God of Job's virtual sinlessness (Job 1:1; 1:8; 2:3), Satan's first speech in heaven (Job 1:9-11) and God's acceptance of the terms of the test proposed. (Job 1:12: 2:6)"


A kind and loving God? I don't think so.

Lazarus

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#201775 - 01/27/08 03:19 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: Lazarus]
blueshift Offline
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Yes, i am familiar with the book of Job. I'm quite familiar with most of the bible, really. It all paints this God as a very human and pathetic figure for someone who rules the universe and has lived for ever. I know mortal people who seem bigger in spirit than that God.

I often feel like i'm not quite accurate in saying that i am an atheist because it really depends on your definition of God whether i believe in it or not. I believe in a spirit that is in all that is created.. it is not "separate"(a meaningless word) and is not above the laws that are part of the fabric of existence.

Good and bad are two parts of one reality like the two sides of a coin.

Let me share a verse from the Tao te Ching that describes the being that i believe in.

" The great Tao flows everywhere, both to the left and to the right.
The ten thousand things depend upon it; it holds nothing back.
It fulfills its purpose silently and makes no claim.

It nourishes the ten thousand things,
And yet, it is not their lord.
It has no aim; it is very small.

The ten thousand things return to it,
Yet it is not their lord.
It is very great.

It does not show greatness,
And is therefore truly great."

There are many translations of the Tao te Ching and it can be read many ways. Personally, though i like the translation i just quoted, i would change the word "small" to something like "humble".

Anyway, "the Tao" is the spirit that manifests as nature and i find the Tao much more lovable, respectable, and believable than the God of the bible.

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#201930 - 01/28/08 12:46 AM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: Danbuff]
theatrekid Offline
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Originally Posted By: Danbuff
All I can say is I remeber feeling this way... I let it all go.


i like your comment because even though we disagree on what our beliefs are we both feel we "let it go" To me letting go was acepting the realization that there was no god. To you letting go was the complete opposite. Just wanted to point that out, \:\)

Christopher


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#201962 - 01/28/08 04:15 AM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: theatrekid]
John Ireland Offline
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i am a thriver who was raped by diverse clergy members & others... THE first rape was BRANDED into me from a catholic priest... for decades now i have healed from my horrific scars NOW illuminated stars... i AM THRIVING in my FULL spirituality... FOR ME, i will NEVER be a part of any organized religion... FOR ME, i see them as brainwashing cults... at times i have shared my honesty with others who immediately attack me... i have been TOLD by at least 5 of these type folks that i WILL ROT IN HELL... (i do not believe in their hell LOL) i finally learned just to LAUGH MY ASS OFF... i have eclectic ancestry of the most opposite religions & spiritualities... i also have been in diverse religions too... & NOW i TRUE~ly follow the spiritual ways of my native cherokee, native shawnee, & celtic greats... my spirituality is nature centered & i immerse myself in rituals, many i have created through my healing journey... these are "labeled" pagan & wiccan by others... as with my eclectic ancestry i disregard ALL labels...

this january i had a total breakthrough of healing that i KNOW & call my F.A.B. self... it is a TRUE return to my innocence before that first rape... having had multiple rapists i call REAL BOOGEYFREAK MONSTERS i FINALLY & SERIOUSLY KNOW i have dissolved their last chains of bondage... & THIS, for ALL of YOU, no matter what YOUr religious/spiritual beliefs are, is a most ahhhhhhhsome & shocking spiritual gift i NEVER EXPECTED as i journey on this painFULL perplexing planet... i invite ANY of YOU reading this to respectFULLy share/question/vent ANYTHING/ANYTIME... here or through my email (i think my email is public)...

always dream~~~dare~~~dive, john :):):)

& ps... YOur F.A.B. SELF AWAITS YOU... YOUr ONE & ONLY F.A.B. SELF IS WITHIN YOU ALWAYS... :):):)


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#201999 - 01/28/08 09:31 AM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: John Ireland]
Freedom49 Offline
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John,
You facinate me and I rejoice and howl with you in your victory over your monsters. Thank you for sharing.

Roger


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#202049 - 01/28/08 01:38 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: Freedom49]
Stephen_5 Offline
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I was raised going to church only occasionally, probably 10-15 times a year. I remember seeing people there acting pious who I knew had done very unpious things. I moved around the country a lot as a kid and got a lot of different religious inputs. I came away from all of it believing that arguing over religion was like arguing over who has the best imaginary friend. If it gives someone comfort, that's good for them; if they believe in nothing, that's also good for them. Too many conflicts are waged and too many people have died about who's on the right side of the right god.

Steve

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#202121 - 01/28/08 09:58 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: John Ireland]
blueshift Offline
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Right on, John. I've always had a lot of respect for native American spirituality. I'm glad you were able to come out of that mire of abuse and hypocrisy you were victimized by and emerge victorious by finding your own path. That is truly inspirational!

Knowing the role Christianity played in my own sense of shame regarding my abuse, I can imagine how damaging it must be to be abused by a religious figure such as a priest or clergyman. I can only feel deeply sorry for those who go through that and still remain victims of those shame-oriented belief structures.

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#202129 - 01/28/08 10:21 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: Stephen_5]
blueshift Offline
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I understand your point of view. I never really delude myself into thinking that i have any chance of changing anyone's mind who is enthusiastically into Christianity. They will only hear what further confirms what they believe.

My only hope in challenging those beliefs here is that someone who is still open-minded enough to think critically about them might get a little support in doing so.

By the way, i like your signature quote. Kind of sums up my own hippie point of view in a way.

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#202171 - 01/28/08 11:22 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: blueshift]
FormerTexan Offline
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blueshift,

"OK. Now i have warned you and if i offend any one, i should be off the hook for it, since the offended party chose to read on despite the warning."

Well, yes and no. Just because a warning is placed on a post does not give a poster license to post any marginalizing or ridiculing statements. Just a friendly reminder. If one is angry with God, by all means say so. If you feel it's bunk, feel free to say. But canons of decency are still expected toward fellow survivors of a spiritual bend in this or any forum, please.

As for Mr. Carlin, I've heard that logic trap ever since I was a teenager. Mr. Carlin is a pretty funny guy some days, but that statement made about as much sense to me as divide-by-zero. Is there any purpose in making a rock so heavy one cannot lift it? I can come up with a logic trap too, but the tomatoes would cover me in no time.

Andy

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#202191 - 01/28/08 11:51 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: blueshift]
mogigo Offline
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lol, hey I found a nice tolerant christian you can have this conversation with, lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCh2FXzD6R4

\:\) LOL

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#202197 - 01/29/08 12:10 AM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: mogigo]
FormerTexan Offline
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Well, Mike, you know what they say about stereotypes.

(sigh)



Edited by FormerTexan (01/29/08 12:14 AM)
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#202200 - 01/29/08 12:18 AM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: FormerTexan]
mogigo Offline
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Yea, for sure Andy, it's hard to be an Atheist and have to see that there are people like this. Scary actually.

Don't worry Andy, I would never judge a people, religion, or race by one example. I just think it's good to show extremism in all it's forms so we can denounce it when it shows it's ugly side.

Mike

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#202204 - 01/29/08 01:22 AM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: FormerTexan]
blueshift Offline
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I have deleted my original post. Please understand that my intent was not to attack anyone. As someone who has suffered from the psychologically damaging aspects of fundamentalist Christianity, it is hard for me to remain silent on the subject, particularly after reading posts by people who still suffer as i did from the kinds of shame and guilt that i have suffered from as a result of those beliefs.

I don't seem to be able to speak on this subject though without some of my feelings coming through and offending people, so i guess my only choice is to stay off the subject completely and let those who suffer needlessly suffer needlessly. I doubt there is anything i could say that would change it anyway.

I do feel though that i should have as much right in this forum to post atheist or Taoist views as Christians do to post Christian views, and that no one's views on religion or spirituality should be regarded as objectionable simply because they are opposed to someone else's.

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#202210 - 01/29/08 01:49 AM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: mogigo]
blueshift Offline
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That was hysterical! lol I have to say though that the expression on that little girls face spoke volumes. And it doesn't necessarily have to be someone screaming hysterically like that lady to affect children that way.
And that is no laughing matter. It's going to be very hard for me to keep from stepping on toes regarding religion when i know so well the suffering it causes, but i will try my best to bite my tongue.

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#202245 - 01/29/08 08:04 AM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: blueshift]
Lazarus Offline
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Blue,

I'm sorry you felt like you had to pull your post. You do have every right to express your feelings and beliefs, and I didn't see anything marginal or rediculous in your thread. But I know how you feel; I've been chased out of this forum more than once myself. No offense intended, I'm sure...

Repost this in Off Topic or Unmoderated... Our presence here is almost as offensive as a homophobe in Gay survivors. After all, there are only two groups of people left who it is still Politically Correct to be prejudiced against; Gays and Athiests. Gays and "Non-believers"...

Respectfully submitted,

Lazarus

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#202285 - 01/29/08 11:28 AM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: Lazarus]
FormerTexan Offline
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blueshift,

" I do feel though that i should have as much right in this forum to post atheist or Taoist views as Christians do to post Christian views, and that no one's views on religion or spirituality should be regarded as objectionable simply because they are opposed to someone else's."

I personally have no problem whatsoever with people posting how
angry they are at God, or expressing rage over "why didn't God help me?" Those are legitimate questions.
Any statement that keeps the point of view in the realm of "I think" or "I feel" is completely valid.

It is not my intent to invalidate your post. I for one know what it's like to be spiritually abused, as my third perp was a church counselor. Am I angry about it? Absolutely! A man used spirituality against me to fulfill his twisted desires.

Andy

P.S. Should you decide to follow Lazarus' suggestion, "Unmoderated" is now called "Open Forum."



Edited by FormerTexan (01/29/08 12:06 PM)
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#202288 - 01/29/08 11:44 AM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: FormerTexan]
FormerTexan Offline
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Lazarus,

"After all, there are only two groups of people left who it is still Politically Correct to be prejudiced against; Gays and Athiests. Gays and "Non-believers"..."

A few years ago, I remember a "writer" in the Rocky Mountain News suggesting that we should bring back throwing Christians to the lions. Movies such as Dogma and Saved are written off to Christians as "can't you take a joke?" In light of these and other examples, I must respectfully disagree with the above statement. Though I disagree, I can see your point in light of a movie such as Contact, in which an atheist was shamed before a group of top folks.

Andy



Edited by FormerTexan (01/29/08 11:49 AM)
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#202299 - 01/29/08 12:30 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: FormerTexan]
buzz_key Offline
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This is actually very comical:

Originally Posted By: Lazarus

After all, there are only two groups of people left who it is still Politically Correct to be prejudiced against; Gays and Athiests. Gays and "Non-believers"...


because of all the prejudice i have observed in this forum, the majority comes FROM Gays and "non-believers" TOWARDS Christians...


I find it interesting that Christians are ALL lumped together here and judged as one...
while it is true that i have had my run ins in this forum, it has always been on an individual basis, due to the person, not their sexual orientation nor because they were an atheist, solely on the individual...


just my $0.02


buzz


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#202302 - 01/29/08 12:44 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: buzz_key]
MarkK Offline
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Originally Posted By: buzz_key
while it is true that i have had my run ins in this forum, it has always been on an individual basis, due to the person, not their sexual orientation nor because they were an atheist, solely on the individual...


I would have to agree. But then, that's the human race. Individual. Unique. People.

\:\)

M


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#202316 - 01/29/08 01:40 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: FormerTexan]
blueshift Offline
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"I personally have no problem whatsoever with people posting how
angry they are at God, or expressing rage over "why didn't God help me?" Those are legitimate questions."

So being angry at God is fine, but saying he doesn't exist is objectionable. Is that what you are saying?


"Any statement that keeps the point of view in the realm of "I think" or "I feel" is completely valid."

.

I think that though i may not have made it clear enough that these are only my opinions, i don't believe that anything i said was outside that realm.

I feel you are only looking for reasons to support your own prejudice against people who's beliefs differ from yours.

So the above two statements are completely valid, right?

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#202321 - 01/29/08 01:46 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: blueshift]
FormerTexan Offline
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"So being angry at God is fine, but saying he doesn't exist is objectionable. Is that what you are saying?"

No, not really what I'm saying. I'm saying take it somewhat out of the realm of fact.


"I think that though i may not have made it clear enough that these are only my opinions, i don't believe that anything i said was outside that realm.

I feel you are only looking for reasons to support your own prejudice against people who's beliefs differ from yours."

Sure, just as I can say that I feel statements you made borderline prejudice against people of faith.

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#202322 - 01/29/08 01:48 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: Lazarus]
blueshift Offline
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"Our presence here is almost as offensive as a homophobe in Gay survivors. After all, there are only two groups of people left who it is still Politically Correct to be prejudiced against; Gays and Athiests. Gays and "Non-believers"..."

Based on what i have been seeing here i guess i have to agree with you on this one. It's a shame. I'm sure there are many others who feel the way i do but feel they cannot express their feelings freely on what seems to be a Christianity dominated forum.

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#202323 - 01/29/08 01:55 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: FormerTexan]
blueshift Offline
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"Sure, just as I can say that I feel statements you made borderline prejudice against people of faith."


Since all the statements i made referred to beliefs rather than people who hold them, i am sure that you would feel that way about any statements made that express opposition to your beliefs.

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#202328 - 01/29/08 02:06 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: blueshift]
FormerTexan Offline
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"i am sure that you would feel that way about any statements made that express opposition to your beliefs."

As I am sure you would feel the same way about your beliefs. I think in reality we all do.

I once made a statement in another thread about mankind that an individual took personal umbrage to. Was I talking specifically about this person? No. Was I talking about a specific group of people? No. Was I talking about anything that would point to any characteristic about him at all, other than being mankind? No. In fact my statement lumped me in with everyone else. Yet it was taken personally.

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#202329 - 01/29/08 02:12 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: buzz_key]
blueshift Offline
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"because of all the prejudice i have observed in this forum, the majority comes FROM Gays and "non-believers" TOWARDS Christians..."

Towards Christians, or toward Christianity? There is a big difference here that it seems like a knee-jerk reaction to over look.


"I find it interesting that Christians are ALL lumped together here and judged as one..."

I do not judge Christians for being Christians. I say what i say because i want Christians to free themselves of belief structures that harm them.

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#202333 - 01/29/08 02:26 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: FormerTexan]
blueshift Offline
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"As I am sure you would feel the same way about your beliefs."

Actually no. If someone on this site criticized atheism or Taoism, as long as their statements are clearly about the beliefs and not about the people holding them i would not be personally offended, nor would i suggest that they were doing anything improper by expressing their views in this forum or any other forum.

Might i argue with them about their critisisms? Probably, but would i suggest that they should keep their opinions to themselves? Absolutely not ! I like a spirited debate on this subject and believe strongly in everyone's right to speak their mind about ideas and beliefs.

I don't believe that anyone should attack another person on this site for any reason, but as long as they are talking about ideas rather than people, i would strongly defend their right to speak freely whether their opinions are opposed to my beliefs or not.

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#202335 - 01/29/08 02:36 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: blueshift]
TJ jeff Offline
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Quote:
I say what i say because i want Christians to free themselves of belief structures that harm them.


this is the thing that I absolutely do not understand???

how is Christianity hurting me???

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#202337 - 01/29/08 02:39 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: blueshift]
Dewey2k Offline
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Might I suggest that a lot of what is being said here is based on stereotypes? Stereotypes do nothing to help anyone. We must see each other as individuals, with our own histories, thoughts and views. None of us believe exactly the same thing, and those beliefs should be respected, not belittled, derided, or called wrong. No one really knows the answer to the "God question", so there is no way to know if anyone is truly right.


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#202342 - 01/29/08 02:54 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: TJ jeff]
JustScott Offline
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I think this will be the only time I weigh in on a topic like this, as it's this kind of thing that has had me avoiding this particular forum except for on a few occasions. I came to MS to heal, not to get involved in apologetics.

Allow me to start with this: I am a Christian. I will echo TJ Jeff in that I do not believe that my beliefs are hurting me.

I'm also cautious about saying I'm a Christian. I prefer to say that I'm a follower of Christ. Typically if you say you are a Christian, you are automatically labeled as a gay hating, ignorant, closed minded bigot. I am none of those things. My actions prove that.

I am a Christian, but do no hate gays. Truly, I have felt the desire to be close to other men. I understand those feelings, but have never fulfilled them. Nor do I hate atheists. One of my best friends from High School, one I can say that I love like a brother and would do nearly anything for, is not only an atheist, but he is also gay.

I agreed with one of the points you made in your initial post Blueshift (forgive me if I quote this wrong as I can't currently refer to your original post), that one about people who use their beliefs to hurt and victimize others. Nothing makes me angrier than so-called Christians parading around saying "God Hates Gays" or anything like that. Downright pisses me off. I've said here in the chatroom, while hanging out in the Mo's on a mission room, that I wish those gay-bashing Christians would actually open the bible and read it.

If they would study Christ's life, the only people he ever attacked and had a problem with were the pompous religious bigots that used their beliefs to look down on others. He showed nothing but love and compassion for the people that the Religious of His day insisted he shouldn't associate with. I don't remember who wrote the song, but I really liked it. It's basic idea was that if Jesus lived today you wouldn't find Him in any of our churches, he'd be hanging out in bars.

I'm sorry you were hurt by those who used their beliefs to further victimize you. Their actions are a travesty to everything Jesus taught. I understand you're anger. I'm angry too. Remember my good friend I told you about? I stood with him, even after the church we attended drove him out because he dared to share with the pastor about his feelings. He wanted assistance and help in understanding his feelings, all he got was rejection. No Christ like love there. I'll never step foot in that church again. If I ever happen to cross paths with the pastor, you'd better believe I'll have more than a few choice words for him. He's a pharisee. No different than those Jesus called a brood of vipers. Wolves in Sheep's clothing. Devils in angel's garb. Even typing this has me filling with rage and anger at them.

I'm a Christian. I believe those who hurt you and villinize gays are just playing at church and have not a clue about anything that Christ taught.

I've said my peace and my thoughts. I'm done.



Edited by JustScott (01/29/08 02:55 PM)

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#202351 - 01/29/08 03:44 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: JustScott]
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To address the question of how Christianity hurts people, I would say that believing that yourself or anyone else has any possibility of being tortured in hell for ever and ever is hurting you and possibly others.

If you believe that your natural sexual desires are "sinful" whether they be straight, bi, or gay, or that anything you do or feel is something that makes some kind of black stain on your soul that must be cleansed, that is hurting you and possibly others.

If you believe that there is a force in the world that is not just one of ignorance or selfishness, but is pure "evil" that is out to get you, that is hurting you and possibly others.

If your trust in religious leaders allows those leaders to take advantage of your faith to hurt you that hurts you.

If you feel that you can not question your Christian beliefs or explore other belief systems or philosophies without offending God, that hurts you and possibly others.

If you believe that morality is as easy as following a book (the bible)like a Betty Crocker recipe, instead of applying your own intelligence and feelings to each unique situation, that hurts you, and possibly others.

I could go on, but this is enough for now. I do realize that not all who call themselves Christians hold these beliefs and, contrary to what has been charged, i don't lump all Christians into one category or stereotype. In my post i was speaking in general terms about the more prevalent forms of Christianity. I do admit that i did not make this clear to begin with, so i understand the misunderstanding.

I would also like to reiterate that attacking a set of beliefs does not equal attacking or judging the people holding them. Believing something does not make you a bad person any more than not believing something makes you a bad person. If you hurt yourself or others because what you believe makes you think that that is the right thing to do, the fault is still in the beliefs not the person holding them.

Do i feel that people who hold these beliefs i criticize are less intelligent or inferior in any way? NO because it is the human condition that it is very hard for human beings to think about such matters without the natural limitations of human thought. As i said in another post, we are all conditioned to understand everything in relative terms and that predisposition causes it to be very hard to accept absolute answers to questions dealing with non relative reality.



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#202352 - 01/29/08 03:56 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: blueshift]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
I am also a Christian - and I agree with every point you made except the one about pure "evil". I think knowing my enemy makes me wary and wise.

but that's just me.

M


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#202356 - 01/29/08 04:27 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: MarkK]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
One other thought i would like to add here..

Which would be the biggest danger in this forum:

A few people facing the fact that there are others who disagree with their beliefs... or..

Everyone on this forum feeling as though only opinions in agreement with or sympathetic to Christianity are acceptable.

Certainly, if i said something like "Christians are all morons." or something like that, that would be way out of line. But speaking as i did about the negative effects of my religious upbringing and how it made my abuse that much more hurtful to me is about my own issues and about beliefs...not about people.

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#202440 - 01/29/08 10:54 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: blueshift]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Originally Posted By: blueshift
I would also like to reiterate that attacking a set of beliefs does not equal attacking or judging the people holding them.

As moderator on this forum I'd like to offer a suggestion, blueshift. I would never come in here, to use your words, "attacking" the "sets of beliefs" of Christianity, Taoism, Atheism, Agnosticism, Buddhism, Hinduism or any other faith based ism or other religious faith. I take that stance because I believe a person's faith is such a precious thing to him and as such I choose not to attack something so close to what he regards as a part of himself. I don't feel I have the right to do that. Might I suggest you adopt that principal as well? There's really no need and it's not what MS is all about.

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#202494 - 01/30/08 01:42 AM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: WalkingSouth]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
As an athiest myself i must say that we are without a voice. Simply by the fact that since I don't believe in a god it seems to be "offensive" to many peoples belief's. Some people take it much too personal. Then again, discussing why Christianity should not be believed IS an offensive subject to Christians. There really is a no win situation. While many atheist's do resort to calling believer's "idiots", a thought I do not share, after all I believe in love because I need to believe in love. Not really any "proof" of it, love could as easily be called possessiveness. But really the problem is you don't see too many Athiest's saying that others are sinners or evil.

I know that religion and belief's are a sensitive subject but I really have been attacked by many, my entire life, because of my beliefs. And they ARE my belief's. Which is just as offensive to me that believer's feel they need to tell me I'm wrong. As offensive as someone telling a believer they are wrong.

I feel that neither of us should have to explain why we think the other is wrong, if we are secure enough in our belief's then it doesn't matter what the other thinks. Attacking another belief system will not make ones belief system any more "right".

Christians are the majority though, they are the dominant set of beliefs, and they have attacked people like myself with far more anger, vitrol and hatred than Athiests have towards Christians. We don't have a book somewhere proclaiming Christian's sinners and evil. We might think you're misguided, and I would offer that you thinking I was misguided would be very natural. But Christian's find it offensive that some us think that others are misguided. Misguided is not a far comparison to sinner. We've had a very hard time trying to defend our belief's compared to you.

Lastly I believe in the teachings of Christianity as a man made system, I think if it's followed faithfully it is a "good" belief system, sadly I don't think there's a whole lot of that happening, I really thought one of the main points was tolerance. But really it's for me to decide who I like or don't like, whichever belief system one may hold.

I think maybe some Christian's that I do like maybe need to step up a little more though when people like the lady in the video I posted do spout their drivel, so I can feel a little more comfortable believing in my own set of belief's without someone calling me a sinner for them. I have been under attack for quite a while now.

Mike

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#202502 - 01/30/08 02:55 AM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: WalkingSouth]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
" I would never come in here, to use your words, "attacking" the "sets of beliefs" of Christianity, Taoism, Atheism, Agnosticism, Buddhism, Hinduism or any other faith based ism or other religious faith. I take that stance because I believe a person's faith is such a precious thing to him and as such I choose not to attack something so close to what he regards as a part of himself. I don't feel I have the right to do that. Might I suggest you adopt that principal as well?"

Sounds like you just did. May i suggest that we all just be free to express our views whether they are Christian, Taoist, Atheist, Agnostic,Buddhist,Hindu, or any other faith based ism or other religious faith without feeling like if someone disagrees with us that we have then wronged them?

For talking about the impact of my religious upbringing on my CSA issues, i have become an "attacker" now.

It's been fun guys. I'm outa here..

Thanx to all on this site who showed true tolerance and support.

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#202607 - 01/30/08 02:12 PM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: blueshift]
TJ jeff Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 3362
Loc: Northern Wisconsin
if it feels like I've been "attacking" in any way - I sincerely appologize for that - that is not my intention at all - anyone who really knows me knows that I am a person who is always seeking to expand my level of understanding

do I believe in God? - yes

am I offended if someone else does not believe in the God that I do - no

do I claim to understand all that there is to understand about religion/spirituality - heck no...

Am I open to others thoughts... yes (just because I don't instantly agree with anothers views does not mean that I am not open to them)

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Who will cry for the little boy? - I will... - Antwone Fisher

Abuse happens in silence/isolation - Recovery happens only when that silence/isolation is broken...

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#203003 - 02/01/08 09:05 AM Re: Blueshift's rant [Re: TJ jeff]
weapher Offline
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Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 60
Loc: Oregon
wow...

Sorry I didn't stop by the site for a week. Pretty powerful stuff going on here. The only thing I would add to this rant is the old adage..."one reaps what one sows."

If we go around reaping hate and discontent it will return to us. If we reap love and understanding it will come back to us as well. This is a characteristic of humanity and doesn't matter what religion we are.

BS- if you don't mind me calling you that... Good Luck.

weapher

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