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#201025 - 01/24/08 12:29 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: theatrekid]
Freedom49 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
I so wish the universe was that neat and tidy TK. You have only been here a short while. As you get older you will find a place in your universe for "faith". Mathematics did. That is why we have postualtes. Things in math which cannot be proven but which we believe and accept in order the make the rest of certain equasions work.

Science does not even completely function with out faith. And don't even get me started on Quantum physics.

Hebrews "without faith it is impossible to please God for he that would come to God must believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of them who diligently seek Him."

Faith in God works better than science. Most scientist who are any good operate from that bit of knowlege.

Roger



Edited by Freedom49 (01/24/08 12:33 AM)

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#201035 - 01/24/08 02:15 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Freedom49]
theatrekid Offline
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Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 702
Loc: oregon
Roger I do not agree with your statement
"faith in god works better than science. Most scientists who are any good operate from that bit of knowledge."

Most scientists don't agree with this. There are a few mainstream scientists most notably the director of the human genome project Francis S. Collins who do chose believe in God. Your idea that a postulate in math equals faith I don't agree with either. A postulate is just another word for theory. A theory/ postulate is developed through observations over a long period of time.

for example take one of Euclid's postulates "A line segment can be extended indefinitely along a line." We dont know this for sure. your argument that we are taking on faith that this is true is wrong, because we are using observations to figure it out. we are saying this line segment has exteneded for the last 10 thousand tries along the line so so it most likely will be true for the next ten thousand tries. but maybe eventually we could reach a point on a line that prevents a segment from being extended. The postulate would be proven wrong and replaced.

I would love to get you started on Quantum physics \:\)

Science when practiced ethically functions completely without Faith.

Roger don't mistake were I am coming from I don't hate religion. It just isn't for me. I don't think people who believe are morons or crazy. I truly believe we are looking for the same answers just finding them in two different opposite ways. I do not believe I have once said you will come around and realize that I was right all along. It is not my goal to convince you to believe what I do. I am only giving my opinions on how I view the world.

I would appreciate if you treated me with the same respect. I am sure it wasn't your intention to offend me but when you said "as you get older you will find a place in the universe for "faith"." I found that statement very offensive. Many people who claim to be atheist or agnostic are really just angry at their own beliefs in god and rebelling against them. I see lots of people like that, I am not one of them. I have read the Bible, Torah, and several other religious works. I have put lots of time into finding my own spiritual beliefs. I have put more work into figuring out what I believe in than most people would in there entire life. I am not some kid who hasn't experienced enough of the world to really know his beliefs.

Christopher


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#201159 - 01/24/08 03:56 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: theatrekid]
Freedom49 Offline
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Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
TK
Forgive and old guy. I do not mean to be condecending and offensive. Experience has given me my knowlege and perspective. I have watched over the years so my young people including myself look at the world as you do. Look at the concept of God as you do and then down through the years come face to face with the almighty and surprised by joy bow their knee as I have. You can throw out the bible and Koran and all the others doesn't matter until you meet the author face to face. Then science and nature and everything falls into beautiful place.
When God touched my skull and healed my brain and bone and gave me my life back at the request of my mother and my twisted father that was something no one could explain. But one thing I learned from that and many other experiences with him is he is not a formula, myth, force, or chemical equasion. He is a Person. The only way he will allow his existance to be proven is on an individual intimate personal basis.
It goes something like this "God if your real...prove it to ME." And not to many people are brave enough to sincerely open themselves to the creator in that honest fashion. It is so much easier to debate each other than to acknowlege he is in the room an just ask him.
Maybe I am just to old for this intellectual gymnastic.

Forgive me
Roger


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#201181 - 01/24/08 07:07 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: theatrekid]
MarkK Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Denver, CO
someone remind me - it IS still called "The Theory of Evolution" ... isn't it?


M


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#201182 - 01/24/08 07:19 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: MarkK]
Freedom49 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
Yes it is, but don't say anything.


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#201185 - 01/24/08 07:32 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Freedom49]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11183
Loc: Denver, CO
Mark, last I checked, yes.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#201223 - 01/24/08 10:57 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: FormerTexan]
theatrekid Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 702
Loc: oregon
Roger you are forgiven \:\) i just wish you would open your mind to the possibility that Darwin was right. I have said on here that science can't prove the existence of god. I am not saying "prove it" at all. However Roger the idea that you need to accept god to see the world as a beautiful place dose not work for me. that idea makes you and millions of others happy and that is alright with me, i do not judge you for it. i just disagree. For me the idea that i have to accept an almighty creator into my life that has control over everything, but allows children to be abused, famine and disease to plague the world and genocides like the holocaust to happen is sickening. you can disagree with me all you want, but i will never be convinced. You say religion makes the world a better place but to me the world is already beautiful. I see wars fought over religion. I see religion used as tool by people to take control. I can say i am free to make my own decisions because i know what is right from wrong. not because of the divine but because of my own free will. I am here for a short time. billions of atoms all arranged uniquely to make me something truly unique. I find more majesty and power in that fact than i ever will in any thing supernatural.

Mark evolution is called a theory but it is a theory that has been extensively tested and proven. Science always leaves its self open for new ideas, but evolution through natural selection is considered by biologists to be a fundamental force of nature. the days of is evolution real or not are long since over.

Christopher


P.S.
If we have strayed to much from the original topic perhaps we should start a new post I dont know if we are still helping answer the original questions


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#201225 - 01/24/08 11:12 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: theatrekid]
WalkingSouth Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Originally Posted By: theatrekid
If we have strayed to much from the original topic perhaps we should start a new post I dont know if we are still helping answer the original questions

Christopher,

I would agree with you. This topic has moved way off topic from the original question and as such perhaps you are right.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#201226 - 01/24/08 11:17 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: evanesence]
Danbuff Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 249
Loc: NY state
To answer who created God is a fair question but also points to another divine mystery. Life is full of mystery and some questions go unaswered.

The mystery of faith is an example? How do people with such unyielding faith often suffer great ills and harm? There seems no sense or fairness in that. Yet abiding faith may be the strength that helped people get through. I have faced countless periods and situations where my faith was tested and I felt it would never come to pass (it can be any want or desire)...what I had wanted. Someone dear and near always told me I had to be patient and believe. Every time things worked out. That is somewhat a mystery like God is a mystery but for 2000 years people believed and still do. When I did not get what I wanted, it turned out for the best. Something better happened.

To go back to my original point...it is a mystery and there are some things that cannot be explained. I would rather believe and hope that my faith had some meaning when I leave this earth. Sometimes that is all I have but it is better than fear and despair. My faith in God is a comfort. To me the proof is in my blessings and my struggles. They both add purpose and meaning. If you don't buy that, then fine. No ones doubt will change my belief. I believe in mystery, faith and the power of good every time. Those who create fear, evil, harm and chaos apparently have little or no faith.

If this seems like a circular argument, then so be it. I don't have a need for proof that appeases he who doubts. I already believe and that works for me.

Peace,
Dan

_________________________
When you stumble, make it part of the dance.

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#201242 - 01/25/08 01:30 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Danbuff]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11183
Loc: Denver, CO
Christopher,

"Mark evolution is called a theory but it is a theory that has been extensively tested and proven."

I don't mean to be a pain here, but when something is proven, doesn't it leave the realm of theory and come on board as straight-out fact?

Dan,

"How do people with such unyielding faith often suffer great ills and harm?"

Certainly a legitimate question. In my own personal study of the new testament, I concluded long ago that God never promised me an easy life. He does promise that if I stay faithful to Him, that I will get to spend eternity with Him. But in the here and now, I will have trials and tribulations. God never told me those would go away when I began to seek Him. I know the world seems pretty blasted unjust some days (Hey, I'm at MS, right?), but it would not seem right to save me from all of life's troubles just because I believe. That doesn't mean I will necessarily be left to the four winds either.

Andy

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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