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#200957 - 01/23/08 06:08 PM Viewing things that I asked not be viewed
Agape Girl Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 120
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Hi All;

Well I'm back tonight and looking for a little help. Why, please tell me why? Since we both had been thrown into this whirlwind of CSA, it's been rough, that's a given right?

I've asked my bf to refrain from viewing porn, as right now it makes me feel less of a woman and less he desires me. He seemed to have agreed but I find that it hasn't stopped. Should I be grateful that it's not another human being? Should I be upset because I asked him to refrain from it and he full well and good understood how I felt currently? Why shouldn't I matter in this? Why? Should I shrug it off and forget that it's happening.

Why does it happen? What hold does it have, knowing that your hurting someone you say you love. I"m at a loss and I'm confused and I could use a little relief.

_________________________
AGAPE'
means selfless love of one person for another
without sexual implications
(especially love that is spiritual in nature)

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#200962 - 01/23/08 06:45 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: Agape Girl]
rcm Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/07
Posts: 156
Loc: Boston, MA
If you want a honest opinion ....
(a) I've asked my bf to refrain from viewing porn, as right now it makes me feel less of a woman and less he desires me.
THat's a mistake right there. It's not about you or how it makes you feel. Sorry if it sounds harsh but that's how it is. It's about why he does it, and it's more than likely that he is not doing it to make you feel that way. So why ask him to stop doing something because of the way it makes you feel when it is not his intention to make you feel that way?
(b) Should I be upset because I asked him to refrain from it and he full well and good understood how I felt currently?
I don't think you "should" feel in a certain way. If he continues to do it, it's not like you will be able to feel differently about it just like that.
(c) Should I shrug it off and forget that it's happening.
No because obviously it bothers you. But I think that perhaps understanding that this is not about you (and I meand that in a good way) might help. It doesn't necessarily mean that he is not attracted to you. If he has a problem with porn it does not necessarily mean there is a problem in your relationship (ie he turns to porn because you don't satisfy him). Although the porn can certainly create a problem in the relationship (as it appears to be happening).
IOW asking him to do it for you won't work. In fact, it might make things worse if he cannot stop then he'll feel bad about it and start lying to you.
I sincerely hope my thoughts help.
Best wishes to you.
~Raul

_________________________
______________________________________________
Prince Zuko: [looking at a map] How am I going to find the Avatar? He is clearly a master of evasive maneuvering.
Sokka: [cut to him, looking at the same map] You have no idea where you're going, do you?

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#200965 - 01/23/08 06:49 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: Agape Girl]
Trish4850 Offline
BoD Liaison Emeritus
MaleSurvivor<

Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 3280
Loc: New Jersey
{{{Kelly}}}

I'm sorry you feel so badly about this. It's a tough one to get past. What is the "normal" use of porn and what is obsessive? What is acceptable and what is not? It's a hard line to walk. Having said that, even if you were "OK" with some porn viewing in the past, or at least willing to overlook it, you aren't now because of what you've been through. You accept and deal with the pains and struggles that he's going through, but he's not giving you the same in return. Is that a fair assessment?

I don't blame you for being upset because his behavior is hurting you. Does he understand that?

I know that several months after my b/f started therapy and we talked ad nauseum about his web activities, I found that he'd been on-line searching the same crap he'd been looking at before. I called him on it and he swore to me that he was doing nothing more than looking at stuff; that it was harmless. Well, to mind it was far from harmless as it was a repeat of behavior that caused us to explode before. I told him he was playing with fire and that I couldn't accept it. I get the visual stimulation that most men desire and enjoy, but searching for "horny women in NJ" wasn't Ok with me at all!

You have a right to this simple request and I believe he has an obligation to grant it if he wants to be in this relationship with you. It's not only about him and you bowing to his needs and insecurities, yours are just as important and they are most definitely there. Have you talked to him about this again?

ROCK ON.........Trish

_________________________
If you fall down 10 times, Stand up 11.

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#200986 - 01/23/08 08:38 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: Trish4850]
Lou Offline
Guest

Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 100
Agape Girl,

I feel so bad that you are having to go through this, but at the same time, I can totally relate to what you are saying.

I don't know about you, but I am really sick and tired of hearing that this is not about us, or about us being less of a woman, it is about them. As far as being grateful that it is not another human being, no....I don't think you should feel grateful for that at all. Have we become so tolerant of a society that we now think that it is okay for our men to look at porn because after all, it is better than going after the real thing? What happened to the idea that when you are in a relationship and there is something that either partner dislikes or that makes either one unhappy, you discuss it as a couple, and come to an agreement that because you love the other person and don't want to do anything to hurt them, you stop doing what it is that they dislike or that makes them unhappy? Have you asked him how he would feel if he found out that you were out there behind his back looking at porn or for horny men or women in NJ?

In my case, my BF was looking at porn sites, both women and men, and was even hooking up with men that he met online. In my opinion, this is nothing different than say an alcoholic who thinks that he can stop and have just one beer and keep everything under control, but eventually one beer becomes two beers and two beers become three beers....guess you get my point. When you are addicted you are addicted and thinking that you can continue to play the game to me is playing with fire.

I too have asked my BF to not look at porn and hook up with anymore guys or it is over for us! I can't believe that if he found out that I was looking at porn or hooking up with anyone male or female that he would somehow just be able to say that it is not about him but about me. Trust is a big issue and one's self esteem is damaged severely by this kind of behavior. A healthy relationship is suppose to be one in which you both add to each other's lives, not take something away.

I agree totally with Trish, you have a right to this simple request and he has an obligation to grant it to you if he wants to be in this relationship with you.

I am sure like the rest of us you are putting a lot of work and effort into understanding his CSA, talking about it non-stop, reading the posts on this website and possibly others, listening, reading books, being awakened in the middle of the night with screams of terror from nightmares, etc. etc. We are doing this because we love them and want to see them happy and living a good life. Isn't it time for him to do something that will make you happy and help you live a good life? Sure seems like it to me!

Take care,
Lou


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#200991 - 01/23/08 08:45 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: Agape Girl]
PeaceSeeker Offline
New Here

Registered: 01/16/08
Posts: 11
I have been obsessed with porn, sex, and fantasy ever since my last SA, which was around the age of 10. It is my core addiction. Whether it's an attempt at retraumatization, an expression of anger, or some kind of attempt to regain control, merely an escape, or a combination of all the above, I don't know. What I do know is that it makes me feel bad about myself, and I'm powerless over it.

Throughout most of my relationship with my wife, I've looked at porn on a daily basis. It was a terrible, shameful secret I had. She found the porn a few times, and I made up good excuses for why it was on the computer. I promised myself I would stop looking at it, and seriously meant it. I hated the fact that I looked at porn. Within a day I would be back at it.

Finally, she discovered that I had been on pay sites with a credit card. I felt like my world was crashing in on me, but at the same time it was a major relief, to get it out in the open. Eventually, with the help of therapy and recovery groups, I was able to tell my wife about my obsession with sex, fantasy, and porn, and how deep it was. The guilt and secrets were so painful that it was no longer worth hiding...I was willing to risk losing the relationship. Well, my wife was of course hurt, but she didn't leave...it was one of the best days of my life...I shared my inner most dark thoughts to someone...and they didn't leave!

Now we talk about it everyday, and she knows now that it's not about her. I go to SRA meetings a few times a week (which is where I learned about Male Survivors), and as long as I'm working on my recovery, she's ok with it.

For me, porn is an addiction. Like many men, I am powerless over whether or not I look at porn. I hate porn - it's devoid of soul, and so degrading to the people involved. I hate watching it, and thereby condoning and patronizing a disgusting, abusive and exploitative business. But it is one of the most powerful escapes in the world...internet porn is like crack. The intense control, isolation, fantasy, escape, and ultimate endorphin rush are beyond compare. The shame spiral and low self worth and guilt that follow put me right where I want to be...on the track to escaping it all with more porn / sex. It's brutal.

If you know someone who is addicted to porn, I can tell you that they will not just stop without help. I can also tell you that it is most definitely not about you, and that under no circumstance will you be able to stop or control the behavior. Just like living with someone who abuses alcohol, it's important to realize that it is an addiction, and is more powerful than the person's willpower. So don't take it as a personal insult when they act out. What you can do is set boundaries in order that YOU feel ok.

Possibly the best thing my wife did was to take care of herself...she stopped her "acting out" by getting support. She no longer checks up on me, no longer checks the computer history, and no longer asks about it. She has made an incredible transformation from feeling pain, defense, and insecurity to feeling compassion and detachment. This could not be a bigger help for me, but she can only do these things because I'm in recovery.

There are great support groups for people involved with sex and porn addicts, kind of like the sex addict's version of al-anon. My best advice would be to get support, and take care of you.


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#200993 - 01/23/08 09:00 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: Trish4850]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Agape,

I'm obviously not a female so more than likely I can't say I understand. I believe I do understand to some extent however. Trish said it well in her post and I don't want to try and echo that. I would like to attempt to share with you a view from "our" side of the equation.

In most cases our excessive use of porn has nothing whatever to do with you or your desirability. For that matter it has very little to do with our love for you or the rest of the family. It has everything to do with our attempt to workout the abuse of the past in a way that gives us control of the situation. Each episode only serves to bring momentary relief at best and brings debilitating shame and self condemnation at worst. Yet we constantly seek the answer in the exact place where it cannot be found, and we look there because that is what we learned to do. That is how we learned to cope with the shame of our abuse and the robbing of our manhood by the abusers.

Do you need to set a boundary? Of course. Is he going to try to go behind your back and cross that boundary? It's probably inevitable. That does not mean he isn't attempting to do the right thing but that he probably finds it impossible. It becomes your decision what you will and will not put up with, but I will tell you this, It is probable that the impending prospect of losing his happy home may well be the only thing that will prompt him to seek help for this betrayal of trust with you. The downside of that is it may well also be the thing that he cannot deal with.

Don't get discouraged however, my bet is that a man worth keeping, even though he struggles with so many difficulties resulting from his abuse, will also rise to the challenge if it's presented to him in the correct way. You may wish to speak with a counselor on this matter before making any kind of a decision. I wish you well. Hold onto your determination. You are worth it.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
ďLifeís journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ĎHoly ____Ö! What a ride!íĒ ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#201070 - 01/24/08 08:46 AM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: WalkingSouth]
Agape Girl Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 120
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Good Morning All;

I'm at work, trying my hardest to stick to "My Commitment I made to myself this morning on my drive in" day one is always the hardest. I want to waiver, to cheat a little, bend the rules. I know I can't I'll be heartbroken with myself if I do.

Reading all your posts was postitive for me and I'm very grateful, please don't ever be ashamed to "give it to me bluntly" I'd rather the truth than no. "No Bullshit" rule is IMPORTANT, so thank you and I'll think hard on your words all day.

thank you
Kelly

_________________________
AGAPE'
means selfless love of one person for another
without sexual implications
(especially love that is spiritual in nature)

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#201079 - 01/24/08 09:45 AM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: Agape Girl]
NoOneImportant Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 36
As someone with porn issues, I can say, my desire for it has nothing to do with my wife's beauty. I love her, she's gorgeous. I got messed up with porn after my brother came home from the military and brought a crapload of it with him (I was still in my early/mid teens). With an 8 year long history of abuse, It just sucked me in. I haven't looked at porn in awhile now, not sure why, but I know should the urge for it arise, I'll seriously be completely powerless in the face of it. I've never been able to say no to it. I love me wife, and I know if she knew, it would hurt her. I don't want to hurt her, which is the reason I've never told her. I've shared many many hard things with her, but always things that I hope won't cause her pain. If your bf is like me, he wants to stop, he doesn't want to hurt you. But he probably can't stop. SAA or another program might help. Ya know, after reading these things here and writing this, I might just look one up myself. Just love him. Once again, if he's like me, being loved is probably something he longs for. True, unconditional love.

--- Agape Love.



Edited by NoOneImportant (01/24/08 09:47 AM)

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#201098 - 01/24/08 11:13 AM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: NoOneImportant]
Trish4850 Offline
BoD Liaison Emeritus
MaleSurvivor<

Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 3280
Loc: New Jersey
Guys,

I intellectually understand that porn can have a hold on you that feels impossible to overcome at times. Itís a problem, an addiction. Itís awful. To fight any addiction, the problem is acknowledged by the person with the problem and the support of loved ones is sought and hopefully received so that the problem can be beaten back and tamed. The partner who loves you would not sit back and watch you do a line of coke and think that it was OK, they would react with disappointment, anger and pain if you had promised not to do it and then did it anyway. We run the gambit of emotions when you fall off the wagon because we are also hurt by you doing it. It is NOT ok and it is not to be brushed under the rug because you canít help yourself from continuing these behaviors. An addiction to drugs is fought and won only with abstinence, an addiction to alcohol is fought and won only by abstinence. Why would an addiction to porn be treated any differently?

As with everything surrounding this whole mess, communication with your partner is the key. For us partners, we need to realize that it is an addiction and there will be set backs that need to be dealt with. Heaping a pile of shame and guilt on the survivor who is honestly and truly fighting his way through isnít the answer. Ladies, if your guy screws up the courage to speak to you about this, at your instigation or his, be grateful and deal with it. You can express to him how angry it makes you and how hurt you feel, but be clear that it is the hold that the porn has, not the man, that you are really angry with. Your common enemy is the addiction, not each other.

Guys, I canít imagine how hard it must be to be honest with your partner about something like porn. I can only say that being honest with your partner about your struggle is the only way through. Itís probably less the porn itself that causes the problem in a relationship, but the lies that are told to hide it because those lies hide too many unknowns which leads your partner to speculate about all of the horrible things that must be wrong with her which leads you to porn.

ROCK ON............Trish

_________________________
If you fall down 10 times, Stand up 11.

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#201145 - 01/24/08 02:43 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: Trish4850]
Agape Girl Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 120
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Everyone Thank you! I see a lot of you are new here, it feels strange not being the "real" new kid on the block anymore...regardless we're all the same when it comes to pain.

We talked last night as I tried to fight back the urge to talk about it again and cause him more embarrassment. I must say, we always talk it out, don't know how but we do and that is an essential tool for a relationship. Last night I was hurting badly and alone so I turned to MS for some relief, I think even just typing it out was enough, knowing that in a while someone would come to my rescue. The odd thing was that I didn't sit and wait, which always makes things worse. I woke up this morning and read all your thoughts and posts. I REALLY VALUE THEM ALL!!!! it's the truth that sets me free really.

This morning on my way in (1 hour ride each way) to work, could sometimes be deadly if your mind isn't in the right place. Armed with a book on cd to keep the chatter to a minimun I began only but 15 minutes left to go did my mind waiver. Mantra's are a great key thing to use at this point. So "BE TRUE TO YOURSELF"...kept me company the rest of the way. I had definate goals...and think I could have maintained them all day. Truth is I decided to leave work at 12 to be home to talk with my bf about your posts..Peaceseeker, you made me think hard about your words and I connected my bf to your post. That was my goal along with opening the discussion with, "A healthy relationship is suppose to be one in which you both add to each other's lives, not take something away." Thanks to Lou.

My bf is in the "I'm a big fuck-up, I let you down, I keep hurting you" mode. well yes he is but enough is enough...I've told him time and time again...I"M STILL HERE!!!!

Anyway, we talked for a while and I was hoping that Peaceseeker's post would hit home...Maybe a 1/4 of it he acknoledged, so there was not much to cling to for me which sort of leaves me back at square one. With nothing to understand, out in the cold, clueless, and plain old sucky! He's told me he's gotten so much better and then I explained that how could I know that if I didn't know how bad it was. How can I give him props, all I said to him was you should have never promised you wouldn't do it again. You should have said to me, Kelly, I'll do my best to make you proud. Instead, you feel the need to lie to me now and that's a dangerous thing.

He know's where I stand with things, I don't need to embarass him further. I'm going to step away, not check on him, and not question him, you all know how challenging this will be for me as well, but I have to for me and for US. It's his responsiblity, and I have nothing to do with it. I thought showing him "my trust" in him would be a good thing. It seemed to only aggitate him, exclaiming that I'll just simply assume he's watching porn. I said actually it's out in the open now, and I could care less. So, I'd be lying to tell you I feel better but I do feel some sort of relief, I have a T appt. for Feb 7th. I need to concentrate on me! and make sure I don't get lost in all this nonsense.

thank you to everyone....you were there for me!

always,
Kelly

_________________________
AGAPE'
means selfless love of one person for another
without sexual implications
(especially love that is spiritual in nature)

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#201146 - 01/24/08 02:48 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: Agape Girl]
rcm Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/07
Posts: 156
Loc: Boston, MA
Thank you for that message I was afraid of being too blunt.

I hope it all works out for you and your partner.

It is such a difficult situation.

Best,

~Raul

_________________________
______________________________________________
Prince Zuko: [looking at a map] How am I going to find the Avatar? He is clearly a master of evasive maneuvering.
Sokka: [cut to him, looking at the same map] You have no idea where you're going, do you?

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#201147 - 01/24/08 02:59 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: rcm]
Agape Girl Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 120
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Raul;

Never be but "HONEST" with me....I value that so.

agape!

_________________________
AGAPE'
means selfless love of one person for another
without sexual implications
(especially love that is spiritual in nature)

Top
#201196 - 01/24/08 08:08 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: Agape Girl]
Lou Offline
Guest

Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 100
Kelly, I am SO thankful for this post. After reading the posts last night and doing my own post on this subject it was a night from hell for me and my BF.

I just seemed to be in this fit of rage. I SO hate myself when I get like that.....I have tried to be so patient and so understanding and supportive with all of this and it just seems I lost it....not much sleep....terrible night and I am fighting a very bad cold on top of it.

Well, after lying awake most of the night thinking about what had transpired the night before and I have to admit...most of it due to my own ill behavior I began to realize how much your original post really struck and pulled at my heart strings.

You see, I am getting ready to leave on Sunday for a week long class back east and I am absolutely SCARED TO DEATH!!!!!!! In June of last year, I was gone for a week to a similar class for work in Las Vegas and it was not long after that I learned that my BF whom I had only been living with for 2 short months had met up with a guy off the internet while I was gone. Talk about TRIGGERS when I read your post. I truly almost began to hyper ventilate. And then the anger set in..why should I have to feel this way...I did not and have not done anything wrong. Why can't I go to a stupid class for my job and not have to worry about him and if he might do something while I am gone again? For crying out loud....I am 58 years old! Life should just not have to be this difficult at this age!

We talked a little about my fear and I even asked him point blank if he thought he was going to be able to avoid the porn and any hookups while I was gone....and I guess he was honest with me and said that he doesn't intend to do any of those things but that he could not promise. So....I guess at least he didn't lie and say that he definitely would not, but at the same time his response did not make me feel all warm and fuzzy either.

As far as I know, based on what he tells me, he has not done anymore porn and or hookups since I found out about the events of last June, but he always follows that remark with, but then how can I expect you to believe me when I lied to you in the first place? And I guess that is my point and I think it was also pointed out by Trish about lying about this stuff. Once you have been lied to it is only natural to doubt and wonder what else is being hidden from you. For me it totally equates to when I was a single mom raising my two kids alone and I always told them that if they ever lied to me, I would find it real hard to ever trust them again and that they would have to prove to me that I could trust them again and it would probably not be an easy thing to do.

For me, honesty HAS to be the best policy, I may not like what I hear, but when I hear the truth then I can at least choose to deal with it or not....it is the lies that I can not deal with that drives me crazy.

It is ok for us to concentrate on ourselves and not get lost in all of this nonsense. We didn't cause it and we can't fix it.

So, I am walking onto that plane on Sunday, facing my fears and doing what I need to do for me! And you know what, I think it is going to feel pretty darn good! I have been neglecting myself way too long over something that I have absolutely no control! When I look back at my life, I have survived so much and some things even much worse than all of this and with the help of the Lord whom I believe in and trust with all of my heart and soul, I survived!

Kelly, do something good for yourself this weekend, you so deserve it!

Best wishes,
Lou


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#201198 - 01/24/08 08:47 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: Lou]
sweet-n-sour Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/06
Posts: 409
Loc: chicago
Dear Lou:

I can so relate to the worry you must feel in leaving. I just wanted to share something that struck a nerve with me recently. I've been communicating by email recently with my childhood best friend. Her father was an alcoholic and her mother was extremely accomodating to him. About a week ago, I received a phone call from my best friend's mother about something unrelated but during the course of the phone call she said how she and her daughter were enjoying the afternoon together, that it was so rare that she got away without her husband.
Later my friend emailed me and said that her mom seldom goes anywhere out of fear that when she will return she will find her husband on a drunken binge. This all became very real to me in a HUGE way.
None of us can control what our men do...we can not spend the rest of our lives babysitting them. IF they wish to be in our lives then they need to take responsibility for their actions. The best thing any of us can do is draw a strong boundary, then follow through with what is best for ourselves.

They have ownership of this issue and if it hurts the relationship we share then they should not be doing it. It is their decision to seek help if it is too big to tackle alone or to continue on the path that they have chosen. The end result is that they must live with the consequences.

In giving them ownership of this issue, it gives us the freedom to move forward in a more positive direction.

Lou, I commend you for going and doing what you need to do for yourself.
Kelly, thanks to you for bringing this onto the board to be discussed.
Best wishes,
S-n-S



Edited by sweet-n-sour (01/24/08 09:02 PM)
_________________________
"As long as he continues to try, I will meet him in that determination and commitment."

cm 2007

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#201210 - 01/24/08 09:38 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: sweet-n-sour]
Lou Offline
Guest

Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 100
S-N-S,

Thank you for your kind and oh so true words. When you spoke of your best friend's mother, it so reminded me of what my mother used to go through during the years when my step dad was drinking so heavily. She took on SO much responsibility that he should have taken, such as, she could drive any piece of farm equipment as good as any man, plus she always worked at least one full time job and sometimes 2 and 3 to try to make ends meet.

I used to hate it....hated the drinking and how much he and the alcohol had so much control over everyone's lives in our family.

I remember vowing as a child that I would NEVER allow alchohol to become that big of a factor in my life and control me and thank God I have not let that happen. I was in a relationship for a very short time once and when it became apparent that he had a drinking problem, that was it for me and I was out of there.

The problem was, as my mother admitted years later is just what you said, she never gave him ownership of his issue. Instead being the true enabler that she was, she tried to rescue him again and again and again. It was only when she became very heavy into Al-Anon and Ala-Teen that through the 12 step program she was able to Let Go and Let God....and guess what? With lots of prayer and by the grace of God, my step dad gave up a life long addiction to alchohol and cigarettes as well. And oh my, was it ever so wonderful the last 25 years of his life to see what a changed, happy, wonderful man he truly was and I am so blessed to have had him in my life and in my mom's life as they had truly become soul mates at the time of his death and hers which followed only 4 short months later, I think she couldn't stand to be without him.

Now you see why I feel the need to always be in control of everything too.....and as much 12 step program as I have had, I should certainly know better.

Thank you Kelly for putting this post before me so that I can remember that it is me and me only that I have any control over. We all have to face the consequences of our behavior and at some point in our lives we have got to stand up as adults and take responsibility.

Just a short note, I have a book of Daily Affirmations, I turned to today's and this is what it said: My words today will be strong and powerful, I choose words that convey a sense of mastery, competence, and abiity: I can, I will, I am, I do.

I will avoid, I can't, it's impossible, no way, I'm not smart enough, I give up.

I can choose words of power to help create a new perspective on life, and a new perspective on myself.

That pretty much sums it up I think.

Thanks again for your post and for the replies....they softened my heart!

Lou


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#201213 - 01/24/08 09:56 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: sweet-n-sour]
honey girl Offline
Member

Registered: 10/09/06
Posts: 245
Loc: Midwest US
Hi, everyone.
It's a tough one, this figuring out what matters most. Setting boundaries, limits, defining the line-that-must-not-be-crossed.
When I was dealing with this most intensely, I really struggled over it. I have no idea whether it will return as an issue--perhaps! But I hope that what I learned last time around will resurface in time to be of use.
Meanwhile, my short de>
_________________________
I'm just a poor wayfaring stranger, a million miles away from home.

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#201217 - 01/24/08 10:24 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: honey girl]
Brokenhearted Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 644
Loc: TX
Hey everyone,

I am so sorry to hear so many are struggling with these issues. I just wanted to join in and say that it is hard for me to realize I have NO control either over what my H does, and he tends to go for the real people, not just porn.

I have never felt so powerless. I have constant dreams of my teeth falling out and of tornadoes, both of which my T tells me are high-anxiety dreams.

I think I have always had somewhat anxious tendencies anyway, so this on top of it is almost heart-attack mode for me.

I do believe the keys are realizing IT HAS NOTHING TO WITH US and how they can STILL LOVE US even if they're w/ someone else - gosh, how hard that one is. I guess addiction really is just that, just so powerful.

Question: Don't people ever get bored w/ porn or senseless sex? I mean, you'd think after consuming it so much for so long, its power would finally wear off. Or does it just escalate into things I don't even want to imagine? Like how far can it go? For a true addict, is it progressive as, say, a terminal illness would be, no matter what?

I remember Ted Bundy saying porn is what got him started on his path to depravity. (He started raping, then killing, women to get his highs).

I know we all hate to even think these things. My mind is such a nightmare at times. Sometimes the more I try to figure it all out, the worse my mind imagines.

My T recently said that her dad used to say, "Think long, think wrong; you can convince yourself of anything."

Guess I'm sort of rambling here but I wanted to chime in and say I know this is so hard. Esp. since no real woman can compete w/ touched-up pictures. But at least they're only one-dimensional and we're the real thing w/ many dimensions. I really find the only way to JUST DEAL is with what someone said earlier, COMPASSION AND DETACHMENT.

_________________________
Brokenhearted

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Luke 17:2

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#201268 - 01/25/08 07:02 AM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: Brokenhearted]
Lou Offline
Guest

Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 100
Brokenhearted,

I love your T's dad's quote: "Think long, think wrong, you can convince yourself of anything".

If you only think of the negative, only negative things will happen.....but the flip side of that is if you think positive, you can conquer anything!

It is amazing how powerful our minds are....sometimes I think we forget that we control our own destiny....we can either choose to deal with things and move on or sit in our misery forever and forever.

I am 58 years old and life is way to short for me to not move on! I can and I will do this!

Thanks again to all of you for the wonderful posts and comments, I appreciate such positive feedback from everyone and hope you all have just the best day of your life today!

Lou


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#201457 - 01/26/08 05:21 AM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: Lou]
LittleMissL Offline
New Here

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 42
DAMN IT! I had this whole long post written out and then I hit something and lost the whole damn thing. I just want to bang my head against a wall now.

All of the posts here have been so helpful for me. First off, what the other wives and girlfriends wrote...it help so much knowing that so many of us are all going through the same hurt/pain and fustration and experiencing the same doubts and worries. I sometimes worry that there is something wrong with me but I am not alone with how I am feeling!!!!!! I hate the doubts and worrying about what he is doing and what he may be hiding....

To the survivors that posted, thank you for helping open a small window for me into what my husband is probably thinking and why he was doing what he was doing.

Unfortunatly we are at the very start of this long road and the pain of discovering things and being discovered is still very fresh and difficult to deal with. I want to talk about things and get things out in the open and deal with things, but he is still having a tough time with that.

I hate all of this!!!! I hate what that bastard did to my husband and the pain it has caused for both of us.

I got mad about something I found the other day and in the aftermath of dealing with that , I did have one thought that came to me. He and I are BOTH victims of what that man did to him. While he is the direct victim of what was done, I am an indirect victim. While the SA was not inflicted directly on me, I am still a victim of the fallout and repurcussions of what he did to my husband.

I am sorry if I am rambleing or my thought seem disjointed, I am at work and keep having to interrupt my train of thought, it is not always easy to pick it up again....so bear with me, ok?

I am always so confused and mixed up about how to deal with everything. AAARRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited to remove somethings I said- The more I've thought about this thread, the more I feel I want my husband to read it. Some of you are so much more eloquent in explaining how you feel and are dealing with things then I am. I tried to explain some of this the other day to him and failed miserably at it. Maybe reading this will help some. Anyways, there were a couple small things that I said that I felt I wasn't ready to share yet with him so I removed them for now.



Edited by LittleMissL (01/26/08 08:39 AM)

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#201460 - 01/26/08 07:33 AM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: LittleMissL]
sweet-n-sour Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/06
Posts: 409
Loc: chicago
Dear LittleMissL:

What you said is very much true. The abuse not only has an effect on the man in our life but somehow reaches through time, space and circumstances to effect those that love them as well: wives, girlfriends, partners, children and friends of the survivor.

I read something rather profound on MS several weeks ago that truly made an impression on me. It was a posting from the wife of a survivor that was part of the friends and family network before I began looking here for support. She basically said that she decided to let her husband and her husband's therapist worry about him, to oversee his recovery and she decided to work on being happy herself...to show her husband what happy is all about. I know at the beginning stages of this thing this idea may seem "way out there." I felt she was "right on" in her attitude about this. Ultimately we are each responsible for our own life...our own journey, our own happiness.

Are you both seeing a therapist right now to help you sort through the complex feelings surrounding this?

I'll admit, I became submerged in my husband's issues...right now I am working on letting it all go and to work on the sour part of myself. (my screen name is sweet and sour)

I guess it's important to understand that this all falls upon us in waves. We must feel everything we feel, understand those feelings and just keep moving forward.

We watched a children's movie last evening with our kids called "Meet the Robinson's." Funny how there are life lessons everywhere we turn sometimes. In the movie there was the villain that put all blame for his life on the main character, the inventor who shared a room with him as a boy and kept him up all night before the big little league game. The villain (as a boy) fell asleep on the field, missed an important catch and his life was a downward spiral because of this fact. Instead of moving forward, he let that experience swirl around inside of him, eating him up. I do not want to be the villain in my own life. The whole message of that movie is to just keep moving forward. I'll admit it, by the end of the movie, there were tears in my eyes. Of course my kids didn't understand the emotion I felt, how could they over a kid's movie, right?

I just thought I'd share this with you to let you know the struggles you face, you do not face them alone...the feelings you feel are very important to work through. In the end I suspect each and everyone of us will be that much better for this journey. If only the whole thing was a smooth ride forward.

I bid you peace LittleMissL.

Best wishes,
Sweet-n-Sour



Edited by sweet-n-sour (01/26/08 08:25 AM)
_________________________
"As long as he continues to try, I will meet him in that determination and commitment."

cm 2007

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#201474 - 01/26/08 08:48 AM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: sweet-n-sour]
LittleMissL Offline
New Here

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 42
Thank you so much Sweet-n-Sour. Yes, we just started therapy a couple of weeks ago, so like I said, it's hard because everything is so new and feelings are so raw right now. Everyday seems to get a little easier for me and I am trying really hard not to let those worries keep festering........still easier said then done.

Even though I don't post much here yet, just coming here and reading through the different posts by other family members and from survivor's themselves has really helped me alot in understanding things.


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#201520 - 01/26/08 11:46 AM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: LittleMissL]
TJ jeff Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 3369
Loc: Northern Wisconsin
Quote:
He and I are BOTH victims of what that man did to him. While he is the direct victim of what was done, I am an indirect victim. While the SA was not inflicted directly on me, I am still a victim of the fallout and repurcussions of what he did to my husband.


this statement sure does ring true - my wife can attest to that also

abuse effects not just the person that it happens to - it effects all who are around that person - and that is why F&F is such a good forum - we all need support sometimes...

_________________________
Who will cry for the little boy? - I will... - Antwone Fisher

Abuse happens in silence/isolation - Recovery happens only when that silence/isolation is broken...

TJ's History

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#201535 - 01/26/08 12:25 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: TJ jeff]
Agape Girl Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 120
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Wow!!!
Sometimes I really hit a nerve with a post or two here. My original post was really just so raw, full of emotion and definately not fluffed up to read pretty. I was in need and felt alone. Like I stated I must have hit a nerve with the rest of you which not only made me feel less alone, but with each person's response/post felt calmed, centered and definately felt stronger in my commitment to myself in staying strong and holding my own. We ALL need to do this for US!

Lou told me earlier in a post to do something for me this weekend, you got it girl! "Peanut butter shake" what can I say I"m a simple girl.

What are "YOU" going to do for yourself Friends? Group HUG!

Kelly

_________________________
AGAPE'
means selfless love of one person for another
without sexual implications
(especially love that is spiritual in nature)

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#201538 - 01/26/08 12:47 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: TJ jeff]
Lou Offline
Guest

Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 100
Little Miss L,

You are absolutely right, CSA has affected every aspect of our men's lives and those surrounding them in some way or another...some may be minute and some may be in such magnitude that the damage may take years or possibly not ever be repaired.

I recall a few months back when all of this first came to the forefront as to how angry I was, how emotional all of this was for me. I literally exploded one weekend calling his brother the perpetrator everything I could think of calling him in my frustration because he has definitely screwed up my once very good life with my BF. Well, my anger was turned on me and my BF was mad at me for calling his brother names. As he said, in spite of the abuse, he is still his brother and he still loves him. So, I have learned to keep my mouth shut on this subject but as I believe I read someone post on MS before, I would still like to have just have 5 minutes alone with his brother in a dark alley!

My BF and I talked the other night after I had another melt down and as I told him, I am still not sure that I am going to be able to stay living here or if I need to move back to my condo where I lived before I met him. I am trying oh so hard to understand all of this, but sometimes it is just all so over whelming. It consumes so much of our lives now that used to be filled with fun and laughter. We used to love to plan our weekends and the next trip, and now it seems our lives are occupied with MS and talking about CSA. Even going out for our usual Friday night dinner last night, it seems we don't know what to say to each other anymore unless it is dealing with CSA.

Please don't think that I am putting all this blame on my BF for all of this as I too am just as much to blame. But it does go to show me how much CSA does affect everyone, not just the one who was abused. And what is really sad is that his brother doesn't even know or have a clue as to how much power he still has over 2 lives that live 1500 miles from him!!!!!!

I too though have started to try to focus more on me and my happiness and what is good for me. As my BF said the other night, if I decide to move out, I can leave, but for him, he will never be able to move away from it. And for that, I feel so truly sorry for him because he is a good man and he did not deserve any of this. He thought he had found the love of his life and I thought that I had found the love of mine, and now because someone 50 years ago felt that it was okay to hurt a small precious innocent little boy for their own satisfaction, our lives are forever changed!

Hang in there, you are not alone....


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#201542 - 01/26/08 01:33 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: sweet-n-sour]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
Thought I would add my perspective to problems of friends and family dealing with this in their spouse/sig.other.

It is hard when the pain seems to never end. You go along doing ok at work and some one says something or something else tirggers a memory, feeling. and you want to crawl in a cupboard and cry you lil eyes out. Or you get angry for no reason it seems at whoever happens to be in the way. No one understands that not even you at the time and it seems to go on for years.

Our partners/wives understand it even less. They fell in love with what they thought was a wonderful man who may have a few quirks/issues but still a strong handsome guy that can be a great supportive campanion/lover only to find he is broken inside and they now have to be the strong one. It is a kind of cosmic betrayal as they see it and I can't argue with that.

To us it is just another persone we feel we have hurt and the guilt piles on and on and on. I won't even mention children here. That betrayal is for the kids another guilt/pain/betrayal altogether.

But if they really love us and they stick by us (for better/for worse as they say) and the work gets done and the brokenness comes together and humpty dumpty amazingly starts looking like a good egg again. Lots of cracks, glue, tape and bandaids but functional again, then we become closer more intimate and loving in the long run. Or at least we can. The key I think is to have a broad support net of friends and family that can catch us no matter which way we fall.

Just a thought.

Roger





Edited by Freedom49 (01/26/08 01:34 PM)

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#201562 - 01/26/08 03:01 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: Freedom49]
Agape Girl Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 120
Loc: New Jersey, USA
If I may ask another question?

We have been dealing with the CSA since June 2007. I'm wondering if there is anything I can do or say to spark a thought process of healing in my BF...

1. He does not want to be labeled at all. Right now he hates the thought of being a "survivor" he doesn't consider himself one, obviously.

2. When he can't talk to me (it's really not in his nature, but he's admitted that he's opened up more to me than anyone) for example about what hold the porn has over him and why he does it. I search here on MS for possible reasons. When I ask him if a specific post (I'll read to him) hits home, he's never connected to it 100%, leaving me out in the cold again. To come to my own conclusions.

(typing that last question makes me think that he's still in denial even though it's out in the open, isn't he?)

He was seeing a T but to tell you the truth he was awful BUT it was my bf's first step to getting help. I encouraged him even though I thought he was wrong, how wrong could he be if he was able to start the healing for my BF right? Our last visit together to the T was horrific...(I posted about it months ago) since that session my BF hasn't been back to the T, then came the holidays and after questioning him he told me he was going to hold off til after the holidays. Now it's the new year the pot hole we hit this week led me to ask if he was returning to the T. He exclaimed he was going to find someone new that he didn't think that his T was good. I was happy about this but I never let on, I think someone with a background in CSA is what he needs obviously. To date he has not begun the search for a new T. I myself see a T and I've asked her to produce a few T's names that deal with CSA for him...do you think this is a good move for me?

Is there anything we can do?




_________________________
AGAPE'
means selfless love of one person for another
without sexual implications
(especially love that is spiritual in nature)

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#201564 - 01/26/08 03:14 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: Agape Girl]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
Check the home page there are guide lines for picking a T. It needs to be a good one.
and yes he is in deinal big time


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#201605 - 01/26/08 06:58 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: Freedom49]
Trish4850 Offline
BoD Liaison Emeritus
MaleSurvivor<

Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 3280
Loc: New Jersey
Quote:
1. He does not want to be labeled at all. Right now he hates the thought of being a "survivor" he doesn't consider himself one, obviously.

2. ....................... When I ask him if a specific post (I'll read to him) hits home, he's never connected to it 100%, leaving me out in the cold again. To come to my own conclusions.

(typing that last question makes me think that he's still in denial even though it's out in the open, isn't he?)

1. I live with that one every day. Iím thinking that admitting you are a survivor means that you have to admit that something happened to you that you couldnít control. My b/f waffles back and forth over this one because he sees himself as the big strong man he is, not as the little boy he was. Itís a fight I have no part of.

2. This one too. I donít give him posts anymore because my take on them is usually completely and I do mean completely different than his and it only serves to upset him tremendously.

and is he in denial - oh hell yeah, my b/f too, but itís the weirdest denial Iíve ever faced because at times the destruction and the sadness are right out front and other times they are deeply hidden, or so he thinks.

We spoke a little last night about the how he was doing. I brought it up because we hadnít talked about it for a while and just wanted to ďcheck in.Ē The conversation was difficult for him, as it usually is, but it was calm and productive and today we had a good day. This is basically what Iíve tried to do. I donít want to get into the super heavy stuff. Iíve learned so much here, and I desperately want to share that knowledge, but if I say something that even sounds like his T, then Iím talking like a therapist and he gets upset. Itís funny that we all act like each otherís therapists on the board, in the best possible way, but in a conversation with my b/f, I canít be that. I have to just be his girlfriend, his sounding board if he needs it, and his escape from the reality in his head. It has taken me so long to get to this point and Iím sure that I still do and say the wrong things sometimes, but there is so much to learn and then we need to learn how to make what we know work in real life. Itís a bitch.

So..........for those of you dealing with this for a long time, you know exactly what Iím saying. For those of you who are relatively new to this, youíll figure out your place, I promise. Youíll stumble around, think you have a handle on it and then have a melt down, but you WILL stand up again and get it together. At the moment, I think I have a handle on it, and my own self confidence has bucked up enough so that a melt down isnít imminent, but it is inevitable. I donít look forward to it, but..................

Lou, itís really hard not to let the csa take a front seat to everything else, especially when the information is so new to you. If youíre b/f broke his leg, thatís what you would concentrate on until it was all better; itís natural to feel that way. Whatís un-natural is NOT focusing on it until itís all better, but itís exactly what we as partners have to do. Thereís a lot of stumbling around and making mistakes and having melt downs, but if we stick with it we find our way.

Take your trip and enjoy it. Of course your b/f will be in your thoughts, just donít let it consume you.

This thread is really good. Thanks.

ROCK ON...........Trish

_________________________
If you fall down 10 times, Stand up 11.

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#201639 - 01/26/08 10:33 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: Trish4850]
Lou Offline
Guest

Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 100
Thanks Trish, I plan on doing exactly that. I really need to pass this class and can't afford to let all of this get me down or mess up my chance of passing it. My BF says that I will probably be suffering from withdrawal from MS while I am gone this week, but in actuality, I am really looking forward to not being near a computer for the week. Maybe if I can do it for this week, I will not be so consumed when I get home with all of this stuff.

I hope all of you have a wonderful week and thanks for this post, I have gotten a lot out of it.

Lou


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#201686 - 01/27/08 02:17 AM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: Lou]
LittleMissL Offline
New Here

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 42
First off, I really want to say thank you to Agape for starting this discussion. I think we all have gotten a lot out of it. I know I have!

Lou, go and have a great time. Sometimes taking that mental break and stepping away from everything really helps put things into perspective.



"Quote from Trish" "So..........for those of you dealing with this for a long time, you know exactly what Iím saying. For those of you who are relatively new to this, youíll figure out your place, I promise. Youíll stumble around, think you have a handle on it and then have a melt down, but you WILL stand up again and get it together. At the moment, I think I have a handle on it, and my own self confidence has bucked up enough so that a melt down isnít imminent, but it is inevitable. I donít look forward to it, but..................

Lou, itís really hard not to let the csa take a front seat to everything else, especially when the information is so new to you. If youíre b/f broke his leg, thatís what you would concentrate on until it was all better; itís natural to feel that way. Whatís un-natural is NOT focusing on it until itís all better, but itís exactly what we as partners have to do. Thereís a lot of stumbling around and making mistakes and having melt downs, but if we stick with it we find our way. "

Trish, wow, just wow. You manage to hit everything right on the mark. I really hate those damn meltdowns too.....


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#201914 - 01/27/08 11:17 PM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: honey girl]
LittleMissL Offline
New Here

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 42
Originally Posted By: honey girl
I eventually realized there wasn't a thing I could do to control his behavior. Monitoring what he does, being suspicious, checking up--that might have made me feel as though I were being effective, but there would never be a way of knowing for sure whether he did, or didn't, do this activity.
So, again, I was back to the baseline: I only have control over what I do. Including my response to what he does, certainly, but not only or even mostly that. See, once I also realized that I was getting sucked into his drama and his issues, it became clear to me that I was doing that instead of dealing with my own. And there's always plenty that I need to tend to in that regard!
I think I've made it clear how much I don't like it that he does these things. I haven't said about any of them that they're make-or-break issues; they're not, for me. (I'm not sure if anything would be--hope I don't need to decide. I think if I found out that he was doing something that he had explicitly denied, it would be a very serious matter. I can't rule that out.) But having said that it's up to him, not me, to decide how he is going to live his life is really liberating for both of us.
Ultimately, it's about wanting to be in control--again, for both of us. Whatever each of us can do to increase our feelings of agency and self-direction, the calmer and less compulsive our behavior gets.
HG


Honey girl, I have come back and re-read your post quite a few times since you wrote it and it really has helped me.

YOur right, I can keep checking up and watching things till I am blue in the face and it isn't going to really change a damn thing except upset me more. For the first time in almost 2 months since this all started I finally feel that I don't HAVE to be constantly checking things. There is a part of me that still wants to but now there is a bigger part this is taking control and saying just leave it alone. I don't know how long that will last but I am going to do my best even if it means I have to come back and read your post everyday to remind me.


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#201991 - 01/28/08 08:33 AM Re: Viewing things that I asked not be viewed [Re: LittleMissL]
Agape Girl Offline
Guest

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 120
Loc: New Jersey, USA
LittleMissL...your right and Honeygirl is right.

We just have to be "MINDFUL" of everything around us, and keep it as positive as possible, we're going to fall it just depends on how you view the fall. In October I fell hard, but if it ment I'd be where I am today I'd do it again...you just have to acknowledge the lesson you could have possibly learned from that fall.

LittleMissL- I have something I call my survival kit for the days I feel I might have something trigger, anxiousness, sorrow, anger, helplessness. It's built for me and no one else. It contains

1. my favorite music to soothe the savage beast (George Winston, pianist)
2. my favorite smells (Lavendar, vanilla)
3. something for me to read to keep me focused (A poem that my BF wrote for me specifically, or a post from MS).
4. do your best to look good to yourself that day.
5. celebrate the time you've stayed focused be it 1 hour, or 1 day.

I think you've just started on your own survival kit with Honeygirl's post, If I could suggest printing it out and putting it in your purse or wallet.

We're a great group of People here....Thank you!





Edited by Agape Girl (01/28/08 09:36 AM)
_________________________
AGAPE'
means selfless love of one person for another
without sexual implications
(especially love that is spiritual in nature)

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