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#20086 - 11/13/02 12:36 AM Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
***TRIGGER WARNING******

****PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU ARE IN A PLACE THAT YOU CAN HANLDE YOURSELF BECAUSE THE THINGS EXPRESSED HERE MAY TRIGGER YOU. I CAN'T SAY FOR SURE, BUT JUST MAKE SURE YOU TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF AND DO WHAT IS APPROPIATE FOR YOU.********

PUTTING A MEMORY AND PIECES TOGETHER

Tonight in my therapy session, I went in there and was beginning to make a connection between the tightness of my upper leg muscles and various activities that I am doing. For instance when I get massaged on my left leg, it is an embarrassing feeling of ticklishness and almost shame that comes up. It is so automatic that by the time I see it taking place, it has already happened. And this happens over and over and over. Then when I have done Tai Chi, and we get to exercises that involve the upper leg muscles, I really struggle with my balance and holding myself up. In addition today when I went to the dentist, the anxiety was high and my legs (upper leg area) felt almost like it was so stiff that it was paralyzed or would soon be. My legs felt very heavy. They felt like you didnít stretch and then ran 10 miles.

So as I began to talk about this, we then got to the next step in our discussion about me having a difficult time working on females versus males in massage. My reasoning that I can come up with is that I am afraid I am going to touch them in the wrong spot. With some coaxing my therapist got me to verbally say what the wrong spots were (but that was hard in itself for me to do). And as we began to explore this further, it led me to the next step of the therapy session.

You see, I was only 7 years old when I was forced to come into the bedroom of my father and mother (father will be referred to as Monster from now on). My younger brother was only around 2 years old at the time so I donít know where he was nor do I know where my older brother was. I donít remember anyone being in the house at this time but know that I was in fear of someone finding out what was about to happen.

Some of this gets very tough to write, or talk about because of losing my mom several months ago. I saw my father violently have sex with my mother or as he called it, showing his love to her or love makingÖ fuck that makes me want to puke right now and maybe that is where the puking feeling comes from when I get sexually intimate. I saw him hurt her in so many ways and I so badly wanted to stop him, save her from this monster. He was hurting her badly and doing things to her that I could not understand. Things that while may have seemed intriguing from a 7 year oldís mind, seemed so out of place and so hard to comprehend. As an adult I still canít comprehend it.

But through all of this (many details withheld), I wanted to run away from there, I wanted to flee, I wanted to walk away from it. I didnít want to see what I was seeing and I didnít want to see my mom getting hurt like she was. I didnít understand why she couldnít get away and I didnít understand why somehow she couldnít stop him either. I still donít understand why she never left him. But with the desire aching in my body to leave, to run, to flee, I could not do this. I was paralyzed in place and in fear and my muscles were just as tight as they could be (especially in my upper legs). I knew that if I tried to run, he would just catch me and beat the living shit out of me. It would be worse than staying and my body knew full well what would happen to me.

All of my life I have thought that I was the one to blame, the one that did something bad to deserve this. I have lived with the shame of the secret and the shame of that moment where someone might have caught me. At that time, I thought someone would think I was perverted, sick, weird, bad and anything else that comes to mind here. During this time, I was being taught that this type of behavior was about love and showing our love for one another. So I equated the word love with seeing my mom brutally hurt as he tried to do sexual things with her while he had no regard at all for anyone but his fucking sick perverted ways.

Love was also being taught to me in the context of church and none of what I witnessed seemed to make sense with all of that. It was so confusing.

I still want to protect women in any way that I can and give them the safe, gentle touch that I couldnít give my mom. But I am very afraid of hurting them like my mom was hurt. I want to protect them from all harm because I was not able to do this for my mom. It hurts greatly and I mean greatly.

When I was going through the period of my healing where I struggled with porn shops, I wanted to always rescue these women. I would go to these places and see them naked as they may or may not do anything sexual to me (that part never mattered because just being there was stimulating enough). But when I was there I hated being there and I didnít want to be there. It was like I couldnít leave even though I was free to leave. Just like when I was 7 years old.

There is much more to this than I can write at this time and hopefully I havenít left out the facts that piece this story together. After all, I am writing this for myself. Now I just have to convince my little boy inside of me that he is a good boy and that this was not his fault. Because of that Jeff was with me tonight and Jeff got to join me and my little boy after the therapy session to show little Don that he was a good boy. Jeff didnít know the role he was playing in this, but he wasnít eating ice cream with just meÖ. I wasnít alone.

And to put this in perspective, I will close with the letter to little DonÖ

Dear Little Don,

I know your muscles hurt and I know you are really struggling with the anxiety right now. Yes, I can see that touching girls is very scary to you and knowing what I know, I can fully understand why. But I do want you to know some things. It was not your fault. What that big horrible monster made you do, was not normal, was not right and was down right despicable. It would make anyone angry to have experienced that and it would make anyone that is any age, angry to see this take place. I want you to know that there was not much you could do. You were caught in a situation at the wrong time and in the wrong place. You didnít have a choice. You were very afraid and for good reason. If you would have run, he would have beaten you so hard and you know that he would have beaten you harder than anything. You might not even be alive because he was merciless in order that you would keep his secrets for him. You were only 7 years old and you werenít big enough to do much against this monster that weighed almost 300 pounds. You were only around a 100 pounds and most and so he had the advantage. Plus you know what he did to you if you didnít obey him. That brings me to the next thing. You were a good boy. Even though he forced you to watch something that was so horrible and inappropriate for a boy your age, it doesnít mean you are bad. You were a good boy because you were obeying him and that is what good boys do. What he did was bad, but again you had no choice for he would have beaten you. I know you wanted to save mommy but again you would not have survived through this. I realize it was all confusing because you did not understand what he was doing to her and for good reason. A 7-year-old boy should not even have to think about this nor see it. Sex between parents or two adults is not for children to partake in. It is for the adults. And I know you saw the violent behavior that he was inflicting on mommy. She was not a willing participant and had no power over this monster either. She so badly wanted it to stop, but he would not stop this torture. So please know that you were not bad, you were not to blame and you are a good boy. And to help you understand that, here is an ice cream cone because ice cream cones are only bought for good boys, not bad boys.

Please sleep tight knowing that you are ok in my arms now. You are special, beautiful and a very loving person. You have a sensitive, caring, and respectful touch with others know and will experience. For I know that you will not hurt anyone in anyway and others know that. Others like you too for they know you are a good boy.

In Love
Don, the adult.

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

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#20087 - 11/13/02 08:37 AM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Mr Don:

***********COULD BE TRIGGERING*******************
As I read this, I was reminded of being in my mother's & father's bedroom, where they made me join them in sex and incested me. I was 2 or 3 years old; I only recalled this early this year.

Next I remembered a similar incident involving myself, my mother, and a live-in boyfriend, when I was 9 or 10.

Then I recalled how my mother overexposed me and overexposed herself to me. She would always walk around nude or near nude. She would have sex with her many lovers with the door open or even right in front of me.

I too was stuck there. Somewhat by the threat of physical violence, especially when I was younger. But as I got older, I was stuck there more by the gummy web of the lifelong mindset & pattern of behavior imposed upon me. I was imprisoned by the fear of rejection and abandonment. By feelings I couldn't understand, wasn't ready for, and didn't want.

Whoa, snapshot flashback!...

Recalling incident when my mother called me a "little monster" and tried to strike me with or throw at me a pair of scissors. I'd always thot that memory related to my not taking out the trash or something. But the place wasn't right. Now I know it had something to do with when she incested me when I was 9 or 10, either with the boyfriend, or another time on her own. I must have tried to stop her? Confronted her about it later?...

(How ironic that just a couple years or so earlier, I had thrown a pair of scissors--maybe the same ones?--at my drunken stepfather as he had her against the wall choking & hitting her, after which I got her, my brother & myself out of the house, knowing it would be the belt for me later...)

Wow...

As I was saying, no wonder I was stuck there!

And no wonder I remained stuck in the world of porn I had been raised in, even after my mother did abandon me to a childrens home when I was 12.

For me it wasn't porn shops, but it was book stores & magazine stands containing "soft" porn. Or later, TV & movies. And more recently net porn. But mostly what was already firmly in my mind, and what I managed to create there based on those blueprints.

I too was stuck. Obsessed. Addicted. Don, your story adds new meaning to this for me. I really had been stuck in my porn web. I couldn't move, couldn't "just stop!" Only after years of a great marriage, therapy, and recovery, am I finally putting a stop to it, getting unstuck.

One thing that is helping incredibly is massage.

Due largely to being raped by a gay couple my mother sold me to when I was 10, I could not imagine being massaged by a man.

On the other hand, I was afraid being massaged by a woman might also be painful & feel like the incest by my mother. Or that I would get sexually stimulated & very embarrassed & uncomfortable.

Well, that didn't happen. I have a very sensitive & professional female massage therapist. She has helped me to relax & enjoy healthy touch, easing all the painful body memories of abuse.

To the point that now I have a male chiropractor who is very holistic and uses a lot of touch & some massage. Not only does it not bother me, I find it very therapeutic.

Don we are both blessed, you as a student & me as a patient, with the gift of massage. Also with the gift of good therapists.

I've said it before & I'll say it again: you will be an excellent & sensitive massage therapist!

Don, your letter to Little Don touches me. I've been communicating & playing with Little Wuame a lot more lately. We need a childhood, and we need to grow up--the right way. I think a nice letter to and/or conversation with Little Wuame is well overdue...

Take care of you & Little Don
\:\)
Wuame & Little Wuame

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#20088 - 11/13/02 12:54 PM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
Wuame,
Your post brought tears to my eyes for many reasons. It was like to me that hey, I'm not the only one that endured this and I have held this secret for many many years. Even though I don't wish this type of thing on anyone, it does help to know that I am not alone, that someone else does understand this. I have a hard time understanding it myself and find the mental capacity to do so is limted, maxed out ..

It also brought tears to my eyes because I see such a caring sensitive person in you through your posts. And it once again reminds me that we are beautiful creatures, humans and we were and still are innocent children. I refuse to let myself think that they took my innocence away from me... maybe it is my way of wierd justification and processing, but to me, that is much deeper in me than they ever reached. That's a whole different thought and thread on this subject.

It also brought tears to my eyes about the connection you have made with your massage therapist. This is the same thing I want to learn and I want to come out of school with. I know what it is like to endure these things and I so badly want to help people heal past them so they too can experience healthy touch (with all the benefits that it brings). I also get a regular massage on a regular basis outside of school. I am doing it to get more in touch with the skin that I live in.

Last night in the therapys session, my therapist had me talk to LIttle Don which was hard and it took some work to get me there. But she guided me through steps of things that Little Don was scared about or needed to hear. (and I'm not talking about implanting thoughts or anything, just a guided process to help me work through this.). It allowed me to tell myself so much of what I needed to hear and to tell myself. If that part wouldn't have been done, I would have missed out on so much of this emotional release. The letter I wrote was after I got home, and hopefully will be something I can go back and read to remind myself of these things.

Wuame, thanks for sharing this part of yourself with me because it has truly helped me and empowered me.

Mr Don is changing... that is for sure! And as my therapist said, now Little Don will probably think that Mr Don is pretty kewl and want to hang out more together... that's so kewl... far out dude!... smile!

Don

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

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#20089 - 11/13/02 09:51 PM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Thanks to both of you fellows for breaking the silence and opening a very sacred part of you to we who are your brothers. I hope that this has been freeingt for you.

More and more, every time I see a small child I want to pick them up and hug them and tell them how wonderful they are. Of course I don't want to get arrested so I don't do it except to children I know.

Will we ever come to truly treasure the children?

Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#20090 - 11/13/02 11:21 PM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Don:

Your words also bring tears to my eyes, and warm my heart. If there are going to be people who have gone thru the kind of hell on earth we have, it's good that we can get together and empathize & support one another. It still breaks my heart to think of how Little Don must have felt watching his mother being so hurt & not being able to help her. His progress and yours Mr Don are quite remarkable, gratifying, & hope-giving.

Don even as I cry out for you I rejoice in your conviction of your innocence & sense of identity. For it was not you who did anything wrong to be guilty about. You are still you. You are innocent.

Don, you will be a massage therapist who can give healing touch to those who desperately need it, becuz you are learning to receive it after all you've been thru. Becuz you understand & you care.

My goal is to work with and advocate for male survivors, possibly along with other abuse & trauma survivors, in what context I'm not yet sure. My objective is to give healing touch spirit to spirit more than body to body. But it's all different aspects of or emphasis on the same ministry, becuz as we know the body & the spirit are vitally intertwined & in need of simeltaneous & complimentary care.

I'm glad you're talking with Little Don in therapy. Sounds like you found this experience to be very valid & real, just as I did in my 2-chair therapy recently. While the focus was on confrontation with my mother, these sessions actually involved my mother of the past, my mother of the present, Little Wuame at age 9, and Wuame present. I sat as, talked with and listened to each one, back & forth, guided by my T.

Truly a life-transforming experience. As you say, an incredible emotional release. A great way to get to know yourself better.

Don I'm grateful that you find our sharing helpful. So do I. It's good & important that we empower one another as male survivors. So that we can become our true & full selves. And help others do the same.

I'm glad Little Don thinks you're cool & wants to hang with you. I know it will be great for both of you.

Little Wuame has been hiding for so long. Sometimes I've pushed him down becuz I had to be "grown up." Now we've decided we must first have our childhood. Then we'll grow up like we're supposed to, be who we're meant to be.

So will you Don; Mr Don & Little Don! \:\)

Take care my survivor brother

Wuame

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#20091 - 11/13/02 11:53 PM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Bob:

Thank you. It is liberating! As a wise man once said, "The truth shall set you free." ;\)
It is good to be in a brotherhood in which so many can feel free to share so much of themselves, anonymous tho it may be.

Bob you're so right about children. I have several "adopted daughters" myself, friends of my daughers. But I know I can always hug Little Wuame without fear of being arrested or something. And he needs lots of hugs...

Thanks Bob. I will treasure my inner child, and treasure all children.

Wuame

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#20092 - 11/14/02 01:42 AM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
Sleepy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 288
Loc: Arizona, USA
Don & Wuame,
I found your posts very touching. I can easily relate to many of your words. I posted something similar a few weeks ago but when I finaly allowed myself to be hugged at a support group I had the biggest release I've ever had. I had denied myself that aspect for my whole life and was desperetly in need of it. It felt good and was very therapeutic.

I, too, feel as though there is still that child inside of me that got stuck. I've been toying with the idea of writing a letter to that child and now I think I will. I need to tell him a few things. Thanks guys.
mike

_________________________
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end."
--Ursula K. Le Guin

"Mental health is a commitment to reality at all times."
--M. Scott Peck

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#20093 - 11/14/02 09:46 AM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Mike:

I remember. I looked back, and it was your first post here, also in a thread concerning in part massage & involving among others Mr Don & I. Sounds like the three of us relate quite a bit on many levels.

My hugging is mostly with my wife, and my daughters when I see them (they're in college; but we're seeing one today!). No live support groups around here, and I haven't been very good at making friends I trust enuf to hug, at least not close by; of course we did move recently. I do get some hugs in church, tho!

Mike, have you tried massage? For me it was hard to get started. But once I did, I found it great for therapeutic touch not only to my body, but also to my spirit. As my physical stress gets released, so does the emotional. This, along with the counsel of my T, helps little Wuame to relax & come out of hiding. So he/we can grow up together!

Of course everyone's got to do what they can do and what works for them.

Writing a letter to your inner child is a great idea. I've started before but never got far. Now I'm getting to work on another one.

Take care Mike \:\)

Wuame

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#20094 - 11/14/02 08:07 PM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Some of these posts here raised a storm of tears in me, so touching and heartfelt.

I bet they did for the writers as well, reaching back to lead your boy by the hand to safety is just about the most emotional and worthwhile thing we can do.

And I haven't done it for a long time, and never in the depth you guys have just done, you haven't just reached out - you've picked your boy up and run with him.

Christmas is coming, so I think this might be a good time to go back and check young David out, see how he's doing.
After all, everyone say's Christmas is a time for kids.

Lloydy

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#20095 - 11/14/02 10:03 PM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Lloydy:

Yeah, go for it! And have fun with it!

BTW I like your signature Emerson quote. I guess becuz I think aloud so much--even in writing! ;\)

Wuame

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#20096 - 11/15/02 12:01 AM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
Sleepy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 288
Loc: Arizona, USA
Wuame,
It never really occured to me that massage therapy could be good for my emotional wounds. I always thought it was only good for your physical wounds. I think I'm at a point in my life where I'm ready for this type of therapy. It was only very recently that I've allowed people to be near me and I've discovered that that is what I need. I'm going to look into this.

I started writing my letter. In fact, I finished it but I need to make sure that I don't omit anything. I also want to make sure I say everything in the right way as well. I'll post it very soon. Take care Wuame.
Your friend,
Mike

_________________________
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end."
--Ursula K. Le Guin

"Mental health is a commitment to reality at all times."
--M. Scott Peck

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#20097 - 11/15/02 01:09 AM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
RickL Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 84
Loc: Oregon
Mr. Don, Wuame, & others,

This has been a powerful posting for me. I hope you don't mind--I printed it and read parts of it in my therapy session today. Because there are lots of parallels for me.

Don--I didn't witness my dad being sexually nasty to my mom, but I did witness his being "emotionally" nasty to her. I can remember him chewing her out in a way that crushed her spirit (like he did to us kids) and felt dangerous and threatening (which is the way it felt being his son). She didn't fight back, didn't talk back much, but I remember her hunched over the kitchen stove, with him berating her, and she had this total look of sadness and despair. She demonstrated that she was a victim, that we children were victims, because she could not put him in his place, or protect us.

It didn't take much for him to excercise his "threat" muscle on us. When I was little, he occasionally used his belt on us, but it was more the threat of his intensely scary rage, bushy eyebrows, and meanness. I remember that he sexually fondled me in the bathtub--routinely (until about age 6) I remember that he was not all ogre either. I can remember him playfully tickling me--and I remember how good it felt when he would squeeze my thighs with his big hands.

When I was a little older--9, 10, 11 and up, I used to escape my pain by going for long bike rides. It was my escape into a fantasy world, and it was excercise to boot. My own freedom!
Now part of me wonders if all that bike riding when I was young was also a desire to re-create a somehow pleasurable physical feeling in my thighs and groin area.

Fast-forward to now. For the last several years, when I go for a long bike ride, I often wind up feeling sad and depressed in the days following after the endorphins have worn off. It will even trigger feelings of sexuality that has to do with feeling "less than" other boys, and I feel like I am woefully inadequate as a male--and it's a sexual feeling that all the other guys have great superiority over me. I'm jealous of them, and sexually triggered at the same time. That was the way I felt as a kid--and the days following a long heavy bike ride now can re-kindle that, and it puts me into a depression. So I guess there is such a thing as body memories! And in my case, it is also in my thighs! I still love to bike ride, but I must limit the frequency, length and intensity.

A few years ago I would get occasional massages, but they too, often would put me into a deep, helpless sadness, about 3 hours after the massage.

In just the past year, I have started really getting in touch with the effects of the incest--both sexual and emotional (I was the only boy, and my mom and I had a relationship that was overly "special" and apart from my dad). My sexuality is confused, though I was married for 13 years. I feel like I don't know how to go about getting into a close, intimate relationship--and the idea of being sexual with someone is totally scary for me. My wife was the only person I ever had a sexual relationship with.

But healing is coming--I was able to attend the retreat in September in NY, and found so much understanding, safety, empathy and support. It was a big step forward!

Concurrently, I have been having a different kind of body work done, and it actually ended about a month ago. "Rolfing". It can be pretty intense. But the idea behind it is the "realign" the body physically so that it can move more in harmony with gravity, instead of fighting gravity. You go for about 10 or 11 sessions, then you're done. Your body continues to respond to the work after you stop going to sessions. I feel like my posture has improved, I have virtually no more back pain--and here's a real joy--I can actually be comfortable going for a run! Which I am doing regularly now! It's almost like the aging clock has been turned back 10 years. Interestingly, the rolfer warned me before one of the sessions that it could be a "triggering" one. (I shared with him my abuse issues). Boy was he right! It was the thigh area and the tops of my legs that he worked that day! And I went into a 3 day funk of compulsive masturbation and depression!!!

My therapist has kept harping on me to "be the adult" for my inner child. Mr. Don, your letter to little Don was so helpful for me to read. Thank you for sharing of yourself this way.

And Waume--thank you for all the sharing and caring you exhibit in these forums. How do you have all the time to post as often as you do? Ditto for you, Lloydy.

It gives my heart a lift when I think that there are actually men like all of you--not shallow, selfish and abusive, which was my early experience with most males--but thoughtful, sensitive and loving. From the bottom of my heart, thank you!!!

Rick


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#20098 - 11/15/02 10:16 AM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Mike:

My friend, you are clearly taking some big steps forward. Massage may not be for everybody, but it's something I think can be healthy for just about anybody in some form or another. For me, it is vital. As you check into it, I hope you'll find it helpful. Find what you need to help yourself the most.

It's good you want to be sensitive in writing to your inner child. I think the main thing is to just be open, let your adult self be part of him & he part of you. Enjoy it, and share what you can of it.
\:\)
Take care

Wuame

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#20099 - 11/15/02 01:25 PM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Rick
thanks for your kind words, I suppose I spend my time here because I can still remember the pain I was in, it takes a lot to shift 31 years of crap, and I want to help others through the pain if I can.
I remember how much help I needed, we can't do it alone.

Wuame, yeah - I'm thinking about the letter, dont want to rush this one. I know he's still back there some times and I want him here with me - all the time.

Lloydy

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#20100 - 11/15/02 08:01 PM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
Wow, I am warmed and encouraged by the depth of this thread. I didn't think a little thing that I wrote would touch so many people and so it warms my heart to just know that I have made a deep connection with so many. You know sometimes I am scared to write things and post them on the internet. But when I trust myself to write them and post them, I usually get much more strength out of them, then I could have ever imagined.

Bob: Yes children do need to be told they are wonderful because our society and adults give way too much negative stuff.

Wuamie: That image of my father doing what he did to my mom is very difficult for me to even think about or acknowledge... That one is tough. Thanks for the wishes about the massage therapist. Others have seen this in me as well and made similar comments. I definately understand how hard it is to acknowledge the touch one gets in their own body. I struggle hard with this. I'm not exactly sure where this is all going to take me, but I am staying open. I do want to focus more on survivors as my life progresses and this is just one step in that direction.

Sleepy: Hugs were very scary to me for a long time. I've gotten much better about them. At times when I need my space, they are not good but I try to let people know. I think the statement of the child within us getting stuck is so true. At least it is for my own life I think. I am learning a lot about massage as healthy touch. And from my experience with it, there is so much value that we get, and it has helped me work through many issues. Of course I went into it wanting to work on these issues, and it definately has helped me (still helping me).

Lloydy: Yes I shed a lot of tears the other night. I haven't cried that hard in a long time. And the tears I had went very deep. I so agree with you that even as we heal, there are many coming out of the walls for the first time. They need all the strength and support and encouragement they can get. But the best part is, the inner fulfillment when you see how someone that is close to you grows in ways they didn't think they could. That is worth more to me than all the gold in the world.

Again, thank you all.... you're giving me more ideas on how I want to write my research paper as well.

Don

RickL: I feel honored that this post has touched you in a deep way. I'm glad you shared with me what you did because I just had not seen that side of a massage before and it will be something I remember as I continue through my school.

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In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
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Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
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#20101 - 11/15/02 09:23 PM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Rick:

Whoa! Missed it the first time. But as I read your post over again I was hit by your talking about riding your bike & how it triggered you sexually. I can now remember that happening to me when I was a kid! And I rode bike all over the the Tampa Bay area--my mother had no car, didn't drive, used bike herself.

Too bad massage/body work triggers you so much. Of course its not for everybody. And who knows, in time, if you really want to do it. Couple of years ago I couldn't have imagined it!

But I'll lay off the bikes! Bad on my fibromyalgia anyway!

Glad this thread is helping you. Your contribution to it helps me. Thanks.

Take care Rick

Wuame

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"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#20102 - 11/15/02 11:57 PM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
Sleepy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 288
Loc: Arizona, USA
Thanks MrDon! This posting has helped me a lot. As I was reading these threads today I noticed something in RickL's that made me think about my childhood. Rick made a comment about a 3-day funk of compulsive masturbation and depression. I've realized that I've done that often ever since I can remember. But what I was thinking about was that I cannot remember a time when I did not know how to masturbate. It was something I always knew how to do. I guess my question is when do normally developed boys discover this type of activity? I guess it would be adolesence but adolesence is such a strange concept for me. I haven't seen any postings on this subject so if anyone has any ideas I'd like to know. Thanks.
mike

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#20103 - 11/16/02 12:09 AM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
MrDon Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
I've been thinking about the first massages that I got when I was trying to get in touch with just being touched in a healthy way.

If I remember correctly, the first time, I don't think I got undressed hardly at all. And my lower back was off limits as well as my feet because of ticklish and trigger areas for me. But she took it very easy the first night, not going very deep and keeping it very nurturing. I know as time progressed I was able to let go more. Now, I usually strip down and try to relax. I do often tell people that are working on me to not go deep and fast at the same time because that does trigger me. And being in school where we are in a room full of people, I am getting more accustomed to myself and my body. It helps because we do a lot of group building exercises and trust things so we all feel very comfortable with one another.

I guess the point I don't want to get lost here is massage can go in any direction you want it to. You can have a chair massage where you are fully clothed and they only worked on your upper half. You could go for a one hour massage and do anything from energy/mind/body work to actually massage. You could limit the areas they work on, or how much you wear or just about anything you want. Of course you have to find the right therapist for this but they are out there. I told the massage therapist why I was there and just a brief summary of my past. A massage therapist is not a "counseling therapist" but the more they know, the more they can understand and do the more appropiate things.

If you have not tried massage, I do encourage it. It isn't always easy at first, but once you get into it, it can be very rewarding in so many ways and at so many levels. If you are seeing a counselor, make sure you tell them what you are doing so they can help you through this and make it have a bigger impact on your healing. If you go to a massage, try to journal about what happened, what you felt and what you learned when you get home.

These are just some things I am thinking of and I hope that when I do get licensed, I will have the opportunity to work with people who are survivors...

Don

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

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#20104 - 11/16/02 07:27 AM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Don:

That's really great, that you want to use the gift of massage therapy as healing touch to work with survivors. You will have a healing empathy for them that will flow thru your hands into their bodies and spirits. You will be able to help survivors, being one yourself, in a unique way. What a gift for them, and for yourself!

Sure it depends on the person, but you might be surprised how much counseling therapy you do as a massage therapist! Speaking strictly from my own experience, of course. My massage therapist now knows that I have PTSD & depression, and that I went thru childhood abuse, tho with no details. Somehow I think she had a general idea anyway, just thru touch?...

Definitely its also to my benefit that my counseling & massage therapists (and chiropractor) are in the same group. Usually I go to my CT then down the hall straight to the MT (then sometimes the chiro).

Maybe depending who you are & who they are, telling a MT up front you were abused in general (or more if you're ready & can trust them) terms might be helpful, if it will ease your mind while giving them guidance as to how to proceed. Either I didn't need to do that or it woulda been too tense for me, or both.

Don do you think you'll somehow "advertise" for survivors or in some way encourage them to come, or just wait for them to come and figure it out? Just wondering. Either way I think you'll find a lot of times you will "know." Becuz you empathize. And you'll help. \:\)

Take care Don

Wuame

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#20105 - 11/16/02 10:35 AM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
In reply to Mike/Sleepy's question about masturbation (and I couldn't resist the hand with the thumb up), kids are capable of genital stimulation as soon as they can coordinate their muscle movement. In other words, babies and toddlers will experience pleasurable sensations when they rub against their genitals (or someone rubs them.) However, until they master the deliberate muscle movements, the touch is brief and accidental.

When the child is older and capable of putting together "when I touch my body this way, it feels good", they begin to self-stimulate. This usually is brief and if the child is doing it publicly, they usually get the message from parent to not do it. Depending on the sexual environment, the child may be shamed, scared into not doing it, permitted to do so in private, or possibly exploited (sort of like allowing the dog to hump visitor's legs as a good laugh). In a healthy sexual environment, the child is basically told that it is a private behavior like going to the bathroom or picking your nose. Left to his/her own devices, the child who has not been abused will touch his/her genitals for a while, enjoy the sensations, maybe get an erection or vaginal lubrication, and move on to other things. Children who are pre-pubescent will rarely self-stimulate to the point of orgasm. They just don't know what's at the end of the road, so to speak.

Children are capable of reaching orgasm, even if they are too immature to ejaculate. Sometime a child raised in a non-abusive environment will masturbate to orgasm without outside interference. This may be due to self-discovery or hearing from other kids that one can masturbate, if they keep going.

When a child is exposed to genital stimulation by another person, s/he can experience the arousal and orgasm prematurely. S/he may be confused by the feelings and be shamed or associate negative aspects of the sexual feelings with the abuse experience. This is often where problems with comfort with sexual feelings develop. Something feels good, feels scary, feels confusing, feels shameful, etc. The child's reaction to the abuser's sexual response can heighten the confusion and fear, as well a create an association or connection with the abuser. In other words, sometimes same sex attraction is an eroticization (turn on) to the penis of the abuser and not actual same-sex orientation.

So, in a nutshell, kids are capable of arousal and orgasm before puberty. Compulsive masturbation is an attempt to take control of the feelings (which are out of control in compulsive masturbation). It can become addictive, which is another area of discussion about the process of how our brains develop addictions (and all that stuff about brain chemistry.... maybe a good topic for one of our professionals who does this work like Jim Hopper.)

If you are interested in more information about the environment's impact on sexuality, there is a terrific chapter in Sexually Abused Males, by Bolton, Morris, and MacEachron, called "The Abuse of Sexuality". It helps put into perspective that aside from overt sexual abuse, the child can be damaged by the environment s/he grows up in, even if there is no sexual abuse.

Hope that is helpful.
Ken Singer


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#20106 - 11/16/02 01:24 PM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
New to this Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 138
Loc: Mississippi
I think two topics are tied up in this massagurbation thread.

Perhaps we could separate the two methods of "hands on" therapy?

Devon

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#20107 - 11/16/02 06:36 PM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
I can remember masturbating well before puberty, possibly at 5 or 6, and it was self discovered.
I also remember telling my teacher at primary school about it, and these were the days when kids were beaten across the knucles with a ruler for being left handed - it was considered backward and stupid to be left handed. So you can imagine the clout round the ears I got for boasting about what I could do with my willy !!

Lloydy

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#20108 - 11/16/02 06:56 PM Re: Putting a Memory and Pieces Together **TRIGGER WARNING**
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Great play on words, Devon. I think you are correct that there is really another topic here. I'll ask the moderator or adm to move the topic from Sleepy's 11/15 post to include mine, your's and Lloydy's to a new topic. How about "Masturbation at a young age"?

How about it, whoever has the magic power of moderator?
Ken


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