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#198933 - 01/10/08 04:20 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: FormerTexan]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Denver, CO
there was a question on the table - "can any one give me an example of something god has done for you?"

i answered from my heart

had i known it would get me called "selfish and inconsequential" i wouldn't have bothered

in fact, right now - i see no reason to share anything anymore

m


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#198935 - 01/10/08 04:42 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: FormerTexan]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Your statement has no meaning to me, Andy. You assume I have faith in the same ideas and concepts that you do.

Yes, I have studied Job. "Some evil is necessary to in order to achieve good, that good being man's selfless love of God."

It's circular logic at it's finest, but I don't buy it.

Respectfully submitted,

Laz

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#198936 - 01/10/08 05:00 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Lazarus]
FormerTexan Offline
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MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11136
Loc: Denver, CO
Lazarus,

I already know you do not subscribe to this line of thinking, so I assume nothing. For me to answer your questions in ways I think are secularly logical would take time to build a foundation that really departs from the spirit of the question asked my by evanesence. I believe it would fit well into the discussion of this thread. However, I do assume that people would accuse me of trying to convert people, and I don't wish to give them cause. Copout? Maybe, but then I ere to the side of caution on this one. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I've done my own study for my own personal edification over time. With the machinations of the world and the sciences (namely electronics and programming) that I have studied, I have drawn my own conclusions that something bigger than me made me.

Andy

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#198944 - 01/10/08 06:01 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: FormerTexan]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
I understand that this topic is difficult for some people to discuss. Mark I apologize for trivializing your story, but in comparison with a young boy crying out to his God to please stop the torture, it IS trivial. I did not call YOU trivial and inconsequencial, nor did I intend any disrespect to you personally, or to Andy, or to anybody else.

This is supposed to be a place where we can freely exchange ideas. Why would one man's opinion cause you to change your mind about sharing yours?

If I may ask one favor before you go, would you please comment on the essence of my point; Does it make sense to you that God would grant anybody any favors and yet deny a real need?

Andy, I was using replies to Evan's questions to rephrase the original subject of this thread and also, now that you mention it, to point out how off-topic this conversation had become. With all due respect, so far the replies have not been very enlightening. I do not seek to convert anyone either. I'm simply looking for answers.

Humbly submitted,

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#198951 - 01/10/08 06:39 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Lazarus]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11136
Loc: Denver, CO
Lazarus,

I feel it is completely reasonable to seek answers. And I think your questions are quite valid.

I should note that from your earlier post that praying for a friend doesn't mean I got someone to go play racquetball with. That was a genuine need I prayed for in a time when I felt friendless and alone. Relationship is a natural need in all people, since we are relational beings. I believe God gave to me at that time what was needed in my life, and it has helped my friend as well.

I don't really know how enlightening I can be, Lazarus, especially this week. I don't mean to be evasive. I'm just tired right now. But on my way home, I tried to think of something that can help convey my feeling on why I at least believe in a greater being than myself. I believe in my serial thinking that establishing there is 'some greater being' is the first step to looking into why.

I mentioned earlier about electronics and programming. I have been a phone switch tech/engineer for 12 years. Before that I worked on avionics for six years, while moonlighting working on two-way radios for five years. I went to school and studied electronics engineering and later some programming languages. No one will question that it takes brains to study and learn these two sciences. It takes brains to apply the knowledge to either repair or design. I can tell you that every capacitor and transistor in a radio serves a purpose by design. It takes a mind to determine what part of hardware or software is broken and to fix it. It takes a mind to sit down and write a simple program that prints "Hello World!" on the screen when executed.

I can tell you now (though some might disagree), my brain has much more advanced thinking than "Hello World." Yet, the HW program did not just happen on its own. Someone designed and wrote that simple code of a few lines. If it took brains to write that code, then what brains did it take to build my much-more complex mind and body? It takes brains to build a webcam, yet my eye is much more advanced and can in some cases heal itself. It takes brains to build a microphone, yet my ear can hear a million songs and I know the titles of each, and even sing some of them back to you. I can go on and on. I cannot believe that mankind happened by simple chance. There is way too much in the design to believe we simply beat the odds as a race on this planet.

If I didn't believe in the bible as an inspired and divine word, I would still be stuck with believing that something greater than myself made me. Design dynamics dictate this to me.

Andy



Edited by FormerTexan (01/10/08 06:47 PM)
_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#198967 - 01/10/08 09:58 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: FormerTexan]
evanesence Offline
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Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 119
if i got this thread off it's intended course i'm sorry,seems i'm saying that a lot here .lazarus first i should say i agree with you totaly in your first response ,i had all those same questions ,but i didn't ask anyone to convince me god is real ,i asked to hear what god had done for people ,and i was satisfied with the answers ,i may not agree that it's divine intervention ,but what i believe really doesn't matter in relation to the question asked. i know being a nonbeliever i have been preached to and told that i'm an idiot because i don't believe ,that i will burn in hell ,but isn't attacking people for what they believe the same as attacking people for what they don't believe? i have no more right to convince them they are wrong ,than they have to convince me i'm wrong. faith is i think a very individual thing if andy believes then in andy's world that is truth ,us agreeing or diseagreeing means nothing . if mark believes then even if i think it's not real it won't stop mark from getting comfort from what he believes and the way i see it i have no right to try to deny him that comfort. in fact sometimes i envy those who have some damn thing to believe in . again i'm sorry if i got this off topic evan


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#198992 - 01/11/08 01:49 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: evanesence]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Originally Posted By: evanesence
if mark believes then even if i think it's not real it won't stop mark from getting comfort from what he believes and the way i see it i have no right to try to deny him that comfort.


And that is one of the most powerful statements I've seen in this particular forum in a long time!

evanesence, you speak wisdom. I have never understood this urge we all have to make sure the other person believes it the way we do and if they don't we must get angry and make a fools of ourselves and lob insults back and forth at each other \:\) (yes, I've done it too, even on MS)

The way I see it is if we can discuss this stuff even in amicable disagreement we all may learn something.

There, I've said my piece. Thank-you evanesence for sparking my brain cells into action.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#199010 - 01/11/08 09:01 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: evanesence]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: evanesence
isn't attacking people for what they believe the same as attacking people for what they don't believe? i have no more right to convince them they are wrong ,than they have to convince me i'm wrong. faith is i think a very individual thing if andy believes then in andy's world that is truth ,us agreeing or diseagreeing means nothing . if mark believes then even if i think it's not real it won't stop mark from getting comfort from what he believes and the way i see it i have no right to try to deny him that comfort.
Thank you, Evan.

Mark


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#199044 - 01/11/08 01:42 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: MarkK]
TJ jeff Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 3379
Loc: Northern Wisconsin
Quote:
"can any one give me an example of something god has done for you?"


Yes - I believe I can

I've followed this conversation and the others here recently that have had to be closed - I've felt that I needed to say something in them - just could'nt find words...

I'll try to find words today... - I hope this makes sense...

I - like many here - have struggled with the whole concept of "God" a LOT over the years of my life so far - for the first 18 years of my life I was forced to go to church every Sunday - to sit there and hear of all of the sin in the world and to know that the things done to me and that I was being made to do was "sin" and that I was doomed to hell cause that is surly what I deserved - I cannot even begin to count all of my prayers over the years for him to end the abuse - yet... it went on... - God never stepped in an ended it - for the full 18 years till I got out of there and into the military there was abuse in some form or another (18 years I'd believed that I got exactly what I deserved) - for those 6 years while I was in the military I did'nt think about the past - and I did'nt think about God - all i thought about was being the best military man I could be (I was indeed a top-notch sailer - perfect 5.0 evals - early advancements - numerous medals and commondations)- I got out at the end of my enlistment (Thank you Mr. Clinton for not giving a shit about me) and was totaly aimless in where to go with my life... - I spent the next 5 years spiraling down slowly (losing jobs - getting into money problems - finding out that I have a untreatable/uncurable genetic form of Muscular Dystrophy that I will have to suffer the rest of my life with - and then starting to look at my past and seeing it for the 1st time as posibly not being what I deserved) - then... at perhaps what I feel was the lowest i could have sank - a friend gently kept tugging at me to go with him to a bussiness conferance (he paid for me to be there - would not take NO for an answer) - it was a good conferance - but I will NEVER forget that Sunday morning... - they hold a non-denominational worship service - the leader that morning was Phil Driscol - I know this is going to sound plum crazy but I swear that all of what he shared with everyone there (thousands of people) it felt as if he was talking directly to me as if I was the only person in the room - when he led people in prayer at the end of the service - I felt something in me (wash over me) that I simply even yet cannot put words to (other than to say that I felt an all over warmth - a tingleing - and a peace and calmness inside of me I had NEVER felt before)- I walked out of that service feeling diffrent in some way - I just did'nt know what way... - took me till the middle of the afternoon when my friend said that he was going to go work out in the weightroom of the hotel we were staying in and I said "hey - wait for me" and the shocked look on his face - that was when it hit me... - all since that morning - there was no pain in my body at all - none - it floored me (and him) - and yet i could not explain it... - that night I had a dream - a dream I have shared with only a handfull of people and have to admit that I am scared to share here but i will - I dreamed I was a young child - I was in what seemed to be a neverending forest of humoungous trees - I was poorly dressed - basicaly in rags - it was cold - I was hungry - I was scared - it started to rain - I just wanted to die - I was as miserable as I'd felt for so much of my young life - then... out from behind one of the trees stepped a man who was surrounded by light - it's weird cause I could'nt exactly see his face (I always looked down at the ground anyways) - he just gently wrapped his arms around me - the cold was gone - the hunger was gone - I was'nt scared - I felt just totaly safe and at peace - I wanted to stay there forever - I woke up shortly after that -I don't remember him ever saying a single word but I woke up with the words in my head "I've always been right here with you - I've cried with you - you've never been alone"

Now please understand - I did NOT consider myself a religious man at that time - I had'nt even been in church in the past 10 years (except for christmas service with my folks - it's a family ritual - though they certainly are'nt good christian people)

but... - after that dream I guess it really started to working at my mind and the past and other inexplainable things... - which is where I will get back to answering the question... "can any one give me an example of something god has done for you?"

yes - I can give examples - examples that nothing in science can even come close to possibly explaining - things that at the time i just simply did not understand and wrote off to "luck"

example #1 - at 16 I was a young man filled with anger and rage who knew no way out of the life he was living - I'd not had my drivers liscence for very long - but... - driving like a maniac was my "release" (deserted counrty roads late at night) - my way to let out some steam... - one night after mom had had a few rounds with me I felt the house in a fit of anger that was just boiling over - I drove the back roads through the country driving like a madman - driving as fast as my modified car would go - not even paying attention to exactly where I was - just driving for all I was worth sliding the car throug the coners - suddenly I looked up and seen I was comming into "dead mans corner" at over 100mph (it's a corner that is posted to reduce speed to 25mph - though I'd made it through there before at 55) - I paniked - I froze - knew I was dead - next thing I knew I was in the ditch (it's a 6' deep ditch) - I was spinning - spun like 5 or 6 times - saw a field culvert in the ditch right in front of me - closed my eyes - knew I was gonna hit it - knew I was dead - next thing I know I'm directly centered in the road - at a complete stop - pointing back at the direction I had just come from - I sat there completely dazed for I don't know how long - I got out to looked the car over - not a scratch on it - anywheres!!! - I walked back down the ditch - you could see where the cars wheels just barely touched the sides of the ditch as it was spinning ("Something" had held the car up from sinking into the ditch and flipping over - and ejecting it out into the trees) - I looked all around the field culvert where I should have hit - not a mark to be found around it - simply no explaination at all as to how my car could have possibly have ended up back on the road again (especialy dead center of the road - i should have if anything have been propelled out into the trees by inertia) - I drove back home very carefully on a warm seat that night - not having any explaination at all in my mind for what had just happened

example #2 - my uncle had just gotten a new ATV - he wanted me to check it out and give him my opinion of it (mind you - I'm basicaly a proffessional level rider and this was a pre-release machine that the general public had not even ridden yet) - at his place in the country there is a course that is set up that goes around the property - it has a couple of jumps in it as you cross over the driveway - well, the first jump was totaly ok (10' of air)- the 2nd jump (20'+ of air) - as soon as the front tires touched down - I knew something was wrong - it was as if the suspension just collapsed out of the ATV - next thing I know the rear end of the machine is over my head and I'm headed right into a telephone pole - it's a brand new machine - a total of 16 miles on the odometer - I would not let go of the machine (even though that is what I should have done) - I had to try to save it - somehow... - I can only remember hitting the pole first and feeling the weight of the machine as it wrapped around me - uncle says I was out cold for close to 30 minutes (he thought I was dead at first - especialy after he looked at the machine and the way it had wrapped around me) - I slowly stood up - no broken bones - I surveyed the machine - it was basicaly totaled (later uncle took it to be repaired - $3,600 in damages to the machine - basicaly a whole new frame) - I walked away - the ATV did'nt - mind you... I was between the ATV and the telephone pole - the ATV wrapped around me - it was my body - not the telephone pole that did the $3,600 in damages to the ATV - and yet I walked away... - not even 1 broken bone (though I was bruised incredibly for many weeks after as a reminder to what I'd done)

I'm sorry this has been so long - and I thank anyone who has actualy taken the time to read all of this - it's just that I felt very deeply that i needed to answer this question that was asked here of "can any one give me an example of something god has done for you?" - and there just simply is NOTHING in science that can explain these 2 things to me (and yes - there are more "things" - but I don't want to write any more of a book here than I already have) - even though I did not understand it at the time that these 2 things happened - there is indeed a power at work in this world that is wayyy beyond my understanding - call it whatever you will...

TJ jeff

_________________________
Who will cry for the little boy? - I will... - Antwone Fisher

Abuse happens in silence/isolation - Recovery happens only when that silence/isolation is broken...

TJ's History

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#199289 - 01/13/08 11:09 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: TJ jeff]
Lou Offline
Guest

Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 100
Something good that God has done for us. This morning over breakfast my CSA BF and myself were talking about the National Western Stock Show that is now happening in a town near where we live.

It reminded us that one year ago, we took his daughter with us to this event and she is asthmatic. As we were driving along the interstate, we missed the turn for the park and ride so we decided what the heck, why not just drive on in all the way ourselves.

Part way thru the program, she began to wheeze and could not breathe. Her father asked her where her inhaler was and she motioned and nodded that she did not have it with her...it was in the car.

So, in frigid weather, he RAN out of the building to get her inhaler, me all the time praying that she would be ok as I tried to comfort her and assure her that she was going to be ok. It seemed like hours before her father returned with the inhaler, but I am sure it was really only minutes.

As we talked this morning, we were reminded again how God is in our lives daily....had we parked at the park and ride that was miles from where we were....who knows what would have happened to her!

Some may say that this is all just coincidence, but for us, we choose to believe that HE does walk with us through our lives daily, we just need to take the time to stop and think about him and ask him to hold our hands always and to do his will, not our will.


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