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#198221 - 01/06/08 12:23 PM How can there be a God
kiwi64 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Georgia, USA
I am struggling with understanding after my abuse at the hands of a priest. I had always gone to church and until I was 12 and my abuse started I felt safe in Church and felt I had a friend in Jesus.

Between 12 and 15 I was abuse severly at the hands of a priest during bible class and some other occasions. I felt betrayed by the priest, by the church, my parents who wouldn't believe that a man of god would harm anyone, and lastly most importantly by God. How could a loving, caring and forgiving god let this thing happen.

I have tried suicide on a number of occasions to try and get rid of the pain, but have not been successful.

Recently I told my wife that I still had questions about god, while I still believe that there is a god and that he is my savior, I can not understand how he let what happen happen. My wife who is a christian and very committed to her faith, said that because I am questioning god and trying to understand what has happened, tells me that I am a non believer and don't have christian values. I desperately want to understand and be a fully committed christian and have a christian marriage.

I feel very empty and very confused. I know that my coping skills have been distructive, but I just wish that I could trust god and feel I am a worthy person, not this broken shell that I live in and that my wife and family see.

_________________________
"the only limit to what can be achieved is our own imagination" Albert Eienstien

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#198225 - 01/06/08 12:38 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I disagree with your wife. I think questioning God and exploring God is more faithful than just blindly believing whatever is said in the Church. Look at how much Jesus questioned the Jews of his time! I don't think God wants us to be robots, I think he wants us to think for ourselves and find our way to him.

I'm sorry you were abused by someone in the Church. \:\( Just goes to show that "men of God" are still men -- human -- not divine portals from Heaven. I'm glad you found us though. \:\)

I can't say why God lets abuse happen. I think he just created us and now lets us make our own mistakes. Once again, he doesn't want robots. It doesn't make it easier, but free will has to go both ways. \:\(

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#198237 - 01/06/08 01:49 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16263
Quote:
My wife who is a christian and very committed to her faith, said that because I am questioning god and trying to understand what has happened, tells me that I am a non believer and don't have christian values.

God is big enough to allow us to question his role in our lives back then as well as now. In fact I believe he'd rather have us ask questions and struggle with the concept of him than to just follow along blindly never questioning anything. He wants intelligent subjects in his kingdom not robots.

I too went through the whole questioning thing some time back and came out the other side with my faith stronger than ever, and in the mean time learned some very important and personal things about God and my relationship to him.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#198249 - 01/06/08 03:06 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: WalkingSouth]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 10946
Loc: Denver, CO
Andy 1 said it best, when God created us not to be robots. We ahve th power of choice, and God is not going to send an angel to magically appear the moment someone is about to choose badly, stick out his palm and command "NO!" God does not work this way. The same God did not spare His Son at the hands of His very creation.

There is a God, and He is alive. It is up to us to seek Him in our trials. And believe you me, I've done much seeking.

Andy 2

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#198250 - 01/06/08 03:19 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: FormerTexan]
evanesence Offline
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Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 119
life has taught me to believe, in things i can see hear feel and understand. i believe people can be bad ,i believe people can be good ,i believe in pain ,i believe in shame ,i believe in guilt .it's a question of faith is it not? if i can't have faith in things i know are real how can i ever have faith in something that can't be proven .can't be seen ,can't be felt ,can't be heard. i don't believe in god ,but thats just me. if i'm wrong and go to hell then thats what i get ,but imagine my disappointment if i believed and it turns out to be just another fairy tale ,i can't base my life on maybe's anymore, spend my life thinking ok it's all going to be resolved if i just believe.


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#198257 - 01/06/08 04:14 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: evanesence]
bp83 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/29/06
Posts: 111
Loc: Arkansas
but evanesence, with all due respect, isn't that just what you're doing when you trust in science? It's a bunch of maybe's too you know. How can we, in the 21st century be so arrogant as to say that all of the thousands of years of human history has been wrong (which on many points it has, mind you) and we have finally figured it all out...the mysteries of the universe. I cannot for the life of me figure out how people can put their faith in mortal men who live only 85 years at best to discern the infathomable universe and the origins of life.

Either way it goes it is faith, and back to the point at hand, I'm very sorry that your wife isn't more supportive...of course God understands your questioning! It is not to be ashamed of at all! All of us wonder at times where God is...David, a man after God's own heart, pleaded with God to show himself, quit hiding, Elijah (or -sha, can't remember!) prayed to die because of his oppression, and need I mention Job! The only thing that gets me through life's many trials is understanding that while it seems that God is silent, we have no idea how God is or may be overseeing things for our good, and keep in mind that we are not living for this life. The Bible says in this life we will have much tribulation...but in the next life, God will judge and mete out justice that seems to go unserved in this wretched lifetime. He is for us!

_________________________
-
Scott

"Life is for living, we all know, and I don't want to live it alone..."-Chris Martin

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#198258 - 01/06/08 04:19 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: evanesence]
Lou Offline
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Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 100
Kiwi64,

Hi, I consider myself a Christian, and struggle daily with questions as to why my BF was abused by his brother when he was a very young, innocent little boy.

We go to church together every Sunday and in fact just had a conversation at breakfast this morning about the number of Catholic priests that we are all now finding out abused the
little innocent alter boys.

I can only speak for myself, but I do not believe that God is the one that makes evil things or lets evil things happen in our lives.

My boyfriend recently divulged his childhoold sexual abuse to our pastor at church in a private meeting here in our home. The pastor cited verse after verse after verse in the Bible of how sin even existed during God's time. At the moment that Eve took that bite from the apple, sin began. But at the same time, no matter how much people sinned, even those that sinned against God himself, he forgave.

I believe that evil things happen in this world and to a lot of us because of this sin. As human beings we are not perfect as God is. As for people that perpetrate little children or anyone for that matter, I believe that it is the root of evil or the devil, not God. God never wants his children to suffer.

For those of you that are so inclined, there is a really awesome website called: lifetoday.org. If you go to television and then webcasts and then click on November 19, 2007, there is a really awesome webcast by a YOUNG gal Nicole Braddock Bromley on "Healing From Childhood Abuse".

So many of us have been raised during a time when all of this CSA was so much a secret and never talked about. As Nicole states in her webcast, and I too believe, it is most imperative that we and even the churches start talking about this. It is a big problem, in fact as my therapist stated, it is in epedemic proportions. We have all got to take the responsibility of teaching our children, grandchildren, etc., etc., that it is NOT okay for someone to touch our bodies and that we and countless others are here to listen and help if ever they feel threatened in any way, shape or form. They need to be assured that NO matter what, they can come to us. We can not hide in the closet about this any longer if we are to stop the cycle.

I do not believe that questioning God makes one a non believer or a non Christian, instead I think it just reminds me that I am human, not God.

May you find a little bit of peace in knowing that you are not alone just as I hope you have found that you are not alone in your CSA either, you have a lot of good support from a group of men here and I happen to believe that all of that love and support is just not an accident, but truly a blessing.


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#198280 - 01/06/08 06:25 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Lou]
Danbuff Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 249
Loc: NY state
I must agree with Lou in that God is the one who makes things evil. God has nothing to with it, none,nadda, zero, zilch. Man has free will, children do not. The God that I know and believe in surley weeps for the horrors that people created in his own image and likeness and do horrible things to other people. God had nothing no do with any atrocities. God's role in any of it was that of hope and inspiration. I have read Victor Frankel who wrote Man's Search for meaning, He was a Jew in Nazi Germany and held captive and treated in the most horriffic ways while witness to endless abuse and slaughter of innocent victims. It was his faith that carried him. Those are his words and his way of coping.

To imply or otherwise blame God is in contrast to the message of God's son Jesus Christ. If you believe in that or not, whatever you may believe,or that there is no higher power, or is God or Allah...to think it is God who has a hand in evil done on earth makes little sense. My heart breaks to this very day for the pain I still feel from my past CSA. I am saddened by the accounts I read here as well.It was done by humans, not by God. As>
_________________________
When you stumble, make it part of the dance.

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#198302 - 01/06/08 08:23 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Danbuff]
theatrekid Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 702
Loc: oregon
I am not a Christian.

I dont understand why so many people turn to Faith to find the support they need in their lives. I think if we turn to each other and our inner self we can find all the things that religion is supposed to give us. Instead of using Faith to guide me in my life i use reason, for me it makes more since.

I am sorry you are strugling to come to terms with your beliefs kiwi but i think it is a good process to go through.

,Chris


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#198306 - 01/06/08 08:46 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: bp83]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: bp83
but evanesence, with all due respect, isn't that just what you're doing when you trust in science?


Science has existed, evolved, and thrived throughout the centuries based on proof and factual evidence.

Religion has existed throughout the centureis based on suppressing proof and factual evidence.

No, science doesn't have all the answers. However, the only answers science claims to have are those that can be proven.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#198308 - 01/06/08 08:48 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
BJK Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: kiwi64
My wife who is a christian and very committed to her faith, said that because I am questioning god and trying to understand what has happened, tells me that I am a non believer and don't have christian values. I desperately want to understand and be a fully committed christian and have a christian marriage.


May I ask what makes this so important to you? It sounds to me like your wife is trying to shame you into believing somethign you don't.

For me, life began to vastly improve once I came to the realization that there is no God.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#198313 - 01/06/08 09:24 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: BJK]
evanesence Offline
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Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 119
i don't base my opinion on science ,i base it on having my eyes open ,look around ,and it's way worse than just a few bad apples,religion is being shown for what it is ,a way to control people ,first and foremost,not only are people dying in wars over religion ,they are FUCKING DESTROYING THE CHILDREN! where are the studies that should show that glergy as a group account for a huge number of molestation cases? when the shepards are killing the sheep it's time to get out of the flock.don't these people claim to be doing gods work?explain that please? is god totaly powerless? why worship him if he can't do anything ? in my life there has been no reason to believe in god but as a child i did believe i hung onto that belief as long as i could ,but faith didn't stop the punches ,or the sex ,in fact it made it worse of course i blammed myself for god not helping me .i won't spend one more minute waiting for god to show up. take us for example survivors ,how many blind sheep out there go to sleep every night thinking i have faith that things like what happened to us just don't happen. they have faith that god won't let terrible things happen, till it's their kid . many people don't really believe that what priests have done to kids is true ,blinded by the light maybe?


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#198316 - 01/06/08 09:36 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: evanesence]
BJK Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
I don't hold the actions of those who are prone to abuse their power against an entire belief system. MOST of the people who I know who are Christians are good people. However, I have an awefully difficult time when I hear someone say something like "I am a non believer and don't have christian values". Excuse me, but what the heck is a "Christian value"?

In my eyes, morality and religion are not related in any way, shape, or form.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#198319 - 01/06/08 09:51 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: BJK]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
The golden rule is a Christian value Bryan. Think of Jesus as a man and nothing else, he had great idea's. I don't see morality as religious either, I see them as man made and that man happened to call his values Christian. Some people also call an eye for an eye morality, something I know you don't believe in. I think you just might be upset because people actually need a prize for acting moral Bryan. And I agree with you but take anything good from everything you can. I don't follow Christianity but I do take what I can from it, the same as any idea.

Our thinking didn't just appear Bryan. The difference is evolving as the human race evolves.

Mike

_________________________
Thriving

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#198320 - 01/06/08 10:01 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: mogigo]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
The golden rule just may be a Christian value, but I take offense when Christians claim exclusive rights to that rule.

And I do think that the golden rule did just appear. Our primary goal as a species is in the perpetuation of the human race. These rules that Christianity tries to claim exclusive rights to are the result of society becoming civilized, not by some guy claiming to be the Son of God. But the most convincing evidence I have of this is the fact that I learned my morality by separating from the Catholic Church. The Christianity I was taught as a child is nothing compared to the morality I learned by going my own way.

Therefore, since I was able to learn the golden rule (something I don't necessarily live by, but I do try) without any affiliation with Christianity whatsoever, I have come to the conclusion that Christianity had absolutely nothing to do with creating the golden rule.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#198323 - 01/06/08 10:42 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: BJK]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 10946
Loc: Denver, CO
Bryan,

"And I do think that the golden rule did just appear."

I couldn't disagree more. Morals don't just appear. Someone has to come up with them. And to suggest man alone can come up with any moral virtue is preposterous to me. We are born into this world at our most selfish frame of mind. It takes parents/others to teach us not to be selfish. That learning starts the moment we are born.

Whoever the first cognitive person was, that had to start somewhere. If not God, then whom? A selfish imperfect human?



Edited by FormerTexan (01/06/08 10:48 PM)
_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#198324 - 01/06/08 10:59 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: FormerTexan]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
I have seen the love a mother cat gives to her kittens the instant they are born. The kittens are nurtured until they are old enough to wander out of the litter on their own.

I have seen the way a mother bird chews up its food to feed its baby birds.

I have seen the way dolphins, monkeys, dogs, and kangaroos are kind to their young. The young are nurtured, and they are taught the ways of life. And in these lives, there are rules that are followed that contribute to the perpetuation of the species.

To me, it is preposterous to think that mankind, the most intelligent of all of the creatures on earth, would be any different.

No, children are born innocent. It is unhealthy adults who corrupt them.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#198325 - 01/06/08 11:08 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: BJK]
evanesence Offline
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Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 119
morals ?from our parents?


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#198326 - 01/06/08 11:09 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: FormerTexan]
ModTeam Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 689
Guys,

This is not the unmoderated forum. You may post your opinions so long as your postings address the question or subject specifically raised by the original person who posted in the thread, but in so doing you may not denigrate the faith and opinions of others in this forum. Posts which do not follow this criteria are subject to editing or removal.

Please remember to use respect and kindness when discussing these sometimes volatile issues in this forum.


Thanks,

The MS Moderator Team

_________________________
Private messages sent to this account are checked irregularly due to personnel and time constraints. Please send messages to one of the moderators for the forum that is concerned by user name, or if there is no named moderator, send a PM to any moderator.

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#198327 - 01/06/08 11:11 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: ModTeam]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 10946
Loc: Denver, CO
Evanesence,

My parents have their faults yes, but they did teach me "some" good.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

Top
#198331 - 01/06/08 11:46 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: FormerTexan]
TJ jeff Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 3354
Loc: Northern Wisconsin
Quote:
My wife who is a christian and very committed to her faith, said that because I am questioning god and trying to understand what has happened, tells me that I am a non believer and don't have christian values. I desperately want to understand and be a fully committed christian and have a christian marriage.


The best advice I could give to your wife is to go back and re-read her bible - many times throughout the bible very significant people (even the apostles) questioned God - did that make them non-christians? - I think history has sure proved otherwise... God used them to do great things even though they doubted him at times

_________________________
Who will cry for the little boy? - I will... - Antwone Fisher

Abuse happens in silence/isolation - Recovery happens only when that silence/isolation is broken...

TJ's History

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#198345 - 01/07/08 01:28 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: TJ jeff]
Coach Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 28
Loc: California
In the book of Job, Job questioned God. I'm not exactly certain how old Job was when all his trials came upon him. However, God seemed to be able to handle it and had some pretty positive comments about the guy!

Christian values are derived from God's nature and character.

"Has God created us rational beings and shall we deny our humanity which he has given us?" J.R. Stott

Feel free to question it all!

"Knowledge is the foundation of Faith and makes Faith reasonable" J.R. Stott

You are committed to your Faith. It might just be abit more perplexing!

Coach


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#198378 - 01/07/08 08:46 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Coach]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 10946
Loc: Denver, CO
Bryan,

Let's invite those animals you mentioned to come join the debate.



Edited by FormerTexan (01/07/08 10:33 AM)
_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

Top
#198416 - 01/07/08 02:01 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: AndyJB2005]
Still Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6317
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
I disagree with your wife. I think questioning God and exploring God is more faithful than just blindly believing whatever is said in the Church. Look at how much Jesus questioned the Jews of his time! I don't think God wants us to be robots, I think he wants us to think for ourselves and find our way to him.

I'm sorry you were abused by someone in the Church. \:\( Just goes to show that "men of God" are still men -- human -- not divine portals from Heaven. I'm glad you found us though. \:\)

I can't say why God lets abuse happen. I think he just created us and now lets us make our own mistakes. Once again, he doesn't want robots. It doesn't make it easier, but free will has to go both ways. \:\(


Ditto!


Kiwi, I understand your reaction to your abuse. Heck..I still can't handle being around jocks (older jock boys were my perps). I've learned to not blame ALL jocks..but I do greatly blame the arrogance and entitelment infused in jocks by the coaches, parents, etc. Does that equate into all sports programs being bad? I use to say YES! Was I right?

_________________________
Jesus Loves The Hell Outta Me!

Still's Globs

New Video

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#198559 - 01/08/08 12:26 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: BJK]
Danbuff Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 249
Loc: NY state
Belief in each other is another form of faith. Faith in friends is also faith. I think even "non-believers" in moments of weakness might even run the possibility through their mind. I have always heard thank God, and never hear Thank science. I respect your opinions but, having a belief that things will improve or change is having some sort of faith. At least that's how I see it.

Peace,
Dan

_________________________
When you stumble, make it part of the dance.

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#198560 - 01/08/08 12:30 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Danbuff]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Everything you have in your house is due to science, so I wouldn't knock it. LOL Unless God invented the mircowave. \:\) LOL

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#198565 - 01/08/08 01:07 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: AndyJB2005]
theatrekid Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 702
Loc: oregon
Agreed.


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#198566 - 01/08/08 01:14 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: mogigo]
theatrekid Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 702
Loc: oregon
Originally Posted By: mogigo
The golden rule is a Christian value


No it isnt. almost every single culture has a form of this rule many of which date back previous to Christianity.

Here is a list of the Golden rule being said by different religious/philosophical views. many of these come before christianity.

please give credit were credit is due. Christianity did in no way create todays moral code.

Judaism: What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. That is the entire law; all the rest is commentary.

Talmud, Shabbat 31a - thirteenth century B.C.

Confucianism: Surely it is the maxim of loving kindness: Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you.

Analects 15:23 - sixth century B.C.

Buddhism: Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.

Udana-Varga 5:18 - fifth century B.C.

Jainism: In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self, and should therefore refrain inflicting on others such injury as would appear undesirable to us if inflicted upon ourselves"

fifth century B.C.

Zoroastrianism: That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself.

Dadistan-I-dinik 94:5 - fifth century B.C.

Taoism: Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain and your neighbor's loss as your own loss.

T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien - fourth century B.C.

Plato: May I do to others as I would that they should do to me.

fourth century B.C.

Brahmanism (Hinduism): This is the sum of duty: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you.

Mahabharata 5:1517 - third century B.C.

Hillel: What is hateful to yourself, do not do to your fellow man."

first century B.C.

Christianity: So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Matthew 7:12 - first century A.D.

Islam: No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself.

Sunnah - seventh century A.D.

Sikhism: Treat others as you would be treated yourself.

sixteenth century A.D.

Native American: Respect for all life is the foundation.

Kaianrekowa, (Great Law of Peace), sixteenth century A.D.

Unitarianism: We affirm and promote respect for the interdependent of all existence of which we are a part.

eighteenth century A.D

Baha'i: Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself.

Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah,71, nineteenth century A.D.

Native American: All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves. All is really One.

Black Elk, Holy Man of the Oglala Sioux, nineteenth century A.D.

Humanist: Don't do things you wouldn't want to have done to you.

twentieth century A.D.

Wiccan: An it harm none, do what ye will.

Wiccan Rede - twentieth century A.D.


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#198569 - 01/08/08 02:08 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: theatrekid]
mogigo Offline
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Wow Theatre, Thank you. Drives it home, awesome stuff \:\)

I can't think of a better rule

Mike



Edited by mogigo (01/08/08 02:09 AM)
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#198598 - 01/08/08 09:32 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: AndyJB2005]
MarkK Offline
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Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
Everything you have in your house is due to science, so I wouldn't knock it. LOL Unless God invented the mircowave. \:\) LOL

well .. actually .. my faith says without God you wouldn't have microwaves. you wouldn't have anything for that matter. man may have discovered how to produce them - but without God there would be no science in the first place.

my 2 cents.


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#198610 - 01/08/08 10:45 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: MarkK]
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Man, can't you be thankful for both...argh. Why does it have to be all or nothing?

I think God works WITHIN science. Why it's more logical to some that he just made everything with the shake of his nose, like in "I Dream of Genie," instead of actually working through the laws of nature is beyond me?

They actually minimize God to magical elf status -- but somehow *we're* (us "sinners") the heretics. lol :p

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Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#198620 - 01/08/08 11:16 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: AndyJB2005]
MarkK Offline
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Andy, i'm sorry - i didn't mean to say i'm not thankful for science - because i am. i am thankful for people who study medicine as well. anyone who works for the enrichment of life, the expansion of our knowledge - i think all of those are great things.

i believe when God created - He created the "laws of nature". My opinion - for ME - to say God works through the laws of nature sounds TO ME like saying God is limited by those laws. I believe the laws of nature/physics/etc exist because of His wisdom.

i think i'm getting "God works only through the laws of nature" or "God has to stick within the laws of nature" - in which case i'm putting the word "only" into what you are saying - and that is wrong of me. so if i'm misunderstanding, i apologize.

as for "Why does it have to be all or nothing?" ... one of the issues i'm dealing with now is my "black or white" philosophy on life. part of the "residue" of my abuse i guess - but (again, for me) everything IS black or white, wrong or right, good or bad - there is no grey.

Again, i apologize if i have misread or misinterpreted anything anyone has said here.

M


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#198822 - 01/09/08 05:53 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: MarkK]
evanesence Offline
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can any one give me an example of something god has done for you? if you say he gave me life ,that was your parents and biology


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#198825 - 01/09/08 06:18 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: evanesence]
FormerTexan Offline
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Evanesence,

Back in 2004, I prayed to God that a certain person here in town would become my friend. I saw great value in becoming friends with this man - someone who has walked in my shoes. God granted this. He and I have taken road trips together, hikes together, had long talks about lots of things until our ears fell off. We've made several recordings together. It's been good.

Andy

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#198847 - 01/09/08 08:41 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: FormerTexan]
evanesence Offline
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thanks ,can i ask how god brought you together?


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#198849 - 01/09/08 08:46 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: evanesence]
FormerTexan Offline
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We met at a local support org, which is God-centered. I started going there in Oct of 03. The following month saw the end of a friendship with someone else. But looking back, it was a pretty unhealthy friendship. I was pretty sad about it for a month or so, hit a low in December. In January, I was joining everyone at group for chow afterwards. He and I had a chance to talk in depth, and the things he shared were a lot like what I went through. I was a mess of tears when we were done talking because I related so much to what he was saying. It was deep prayer for the next week to see if God would draw us together as friends. I finally found a buddy!

A

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#198897 - 01/10/08 08:41 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: evanesence]
MarkK Offline
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Originally Posted By: evanesence
can any one give me an example of something god has done for you?

wow - where to start. i guess the one that always sticks in my mind - was about 25 years ago, i was depressed beyond anything i've ever experienced before or since. i worked graveyard at a hotel - one morning on my way home i was done. i was screaming at God as i drove and at one point said "I'm thru God - you can kill me now cuz I don't care anymore." i was asleep instantly.

i woke up just as the car was about to run head-on into an iron post and concrete bridge embankment - the bridge went over a wide creek. i remember crying out "Lord save me!" as i jerked the steering wheel. The car spun circles across the bridge and slid into the sandy shoulder on the other side. It tipped up, almost completely over, into a drainage ditch full of water, but slammed back down onto the wheels. For weeks after i would drive past that point and see the skid marks in that circular pattern down the center of the road across that bridge.

i am alive today because of God "doing for me". i could also go on for hours - but i've already taken up too much time.

m


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#198898 - 01/10/08 08:52 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: MarkK]
evanesence Offline
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thank you both for responding i'm glad that you can see how god worked in your life ,maybe i just need to look a little closer to see if he has affected my life in any positive ways ,thanks


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#198926 - 01/10/08 03:16 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: evanesence]
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I feel the need to point out an inconsistency that people seem to often overlook;

Andy and Mark both give examples where they feel God intervened on their behalf, or 'answered their prayers'. I do not understand why any omnipotent being would answer such selfish and inconsequential prayers as "help me find a friend" or "I'm sorry I doubted you, please don't kill me," and not answer the prayers of innocent children being savagely abused. Not to mention all the other tragedies and atrocities that happen on a daily basis. Even Huckabee attributed his good fortune in the Iowa Caususes to God.

How can you thank God for your good fortune and not blame him for the bad?

Personally, I don't believe in God, but even if I did I wouldn't be so presumptious as to assume that he has the least bit of interest in me or my situation, one way or the other. As far as I'm concerned there are only two factors that influence the universe; the 'laws' of physics and pure coincidence.

Respectfully submitted,

Lazarus

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#198927 - 01/10/08 03:22 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Lazarus]
FormerTexan Offline
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Lazarus,

If God had no interest in any of His people, then the death of His Son was for no purpose.

Ever read the Book of Job?

Andy

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List of things ain't nobody got time for:

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#198933 - 01/10/08 04:20 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: FormerTexan]
MarkK Offline
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there was a question on the table - "can any one give me an example of something god has done for you?"

i answered from my heart

had i known it would get me called "selfish and inconsequential" i wouldn't have bothered

in fact, right now - i see no reason to share anything anymore

m


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#198935 - 01/10/08 04:42 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: FormerTexan]
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Your statement has no meaning to me, Andy. You assume I have faith in the same ideas and concepts that you do.

Yes, I have studied Job. "Some evil is necessary to in order to achieve good, that good being man's selfless love of God."

It's circular logic at it's finest, but I don't buy it.

Respectfully submitted,

Laz

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"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#198936 - 01/10/08 05:00 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Lazarus]
FormerTexan Offline
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Lazarus,

I already know you do not subscribe to this line of thinking, so I assume nothing. For me to answer your questions in ways I think are secularly logical would take time to build a foundation that really departs from the spirit of the question asked my by evanesence. I believe it would fit well into the discussion of this thread. However, I do assume that people would accuse me of trying to convert people, and I don't wish to give them cause. Copout? Maybe, but then I ere to the side of caution on this one. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I've done my own study for my own personal edification over time. With the machinations of the world and the sciences (namely electronics and programming) that I have studied, I have drawn my own conclusions that something bigger than me made me.

Andy

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List of things ain't nobody got time for:

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If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#198944 - 01/10/08 06:01 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: FormerTexan]
Lazarus Offline
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I understand that this topic is difficult for some people to discuss. Mark I apologize for trivializing your story, but in comparison with a young boy crying out to his God to please stop the torture, it IS trivial. I did not call YOU trivial and inconsequencial, nor did I intend any disrespect to you personally, or to Andy, or to anybody else.

This is supposed to be a place where we can freely exchange ideas. Why would one man's opinion cause you to change your mind about sharing yours?

If I may ask one favor before you go, would you please comment on the essence of my point; Does it make sense to you that God would grant anybody any favors and yet deny a real need?

Andy, I was using replies to Evan's questions to rephrase the original subject of this thread and also, now that you mention it, to point out how off-topic this conversation had become. With all due respect, so far the replies have not been very enlightening. I do not seek to convert anyone either. I'm simply looking for answers.

Humbly submitted,

Lazarus

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"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#198951 - 01/10/08 06:39 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Lazarus]
FormerTexan Offline
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Lazarus,

I feel it is completely reasonable to seek answers. And I think your questions are quite valid.

I should note that from your earlier post that praying for a friend doesn't mean I got someone to go play racquetball with. That was a genuine need I prayed for in a time when I felt friendless and alone. Relationship is a natural need in all people, since we are relational beings. I believe God gave to me at that time what was needed in my life, and it has helped my friend as well.

I don't really know how enlightening I can be, Lazarus, especially this week. I don't mean to be evasive. I'm just tired right now. But on my way home, I tried to think of something that can help convey my feeling on why I at least believe in a greater being than myself. I believe in my serial thinking that establishing there is 'some greater being' is the first step to looking into why.

I mentioned earlier about electronics and programming. I have been a phone switch tech/engineer for 12 years. Before that I worked on avionics for six years, while moonlighting working on two-way radios for five years. I went to school and studied electronics engineering and later some programming languages. No one will question that it takes brains to study and learn these two sciences. It takes brains to apply the knowledge to either repair or design. I can tell you that every capacitor and transistor in a radio serves a purpose by design. It takes a mind to determine what part of hardware or software is broken and to fix it. It takes a mind to sit down and write a simple program that prints "Hello World!" on the screen when executed.

I can tell you now (though some might disagree), my brain has much more advanced thinking than "Hello World." Yet, the HW program did not just happen on its own. Someone designed and wrote that simple code of a few lines. If it took brains to write that code, then what brains did it take to build my much-more complex mind and body? It takes brains to build a webcam, yet my eye is much more advanced and can in some cases heal itself. It takes brains to build a microphone, yet my ear can hear a million songs and I know the titles of each, and even sing some of them back to you. I can go on and on. I cannot believe that mankind happened by simple chance. There is way too much in the design to believe we simply beat the odds as a race on this planet.

If I didn't believe in the bible as an inspired and divine word, I would still be stuck with believing that something greater than myself made me. Design dynamics dictate this to me.

Andy



Edited by FormerTexan (01/10/08 06:47 PM)
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#198967 - 01/10/08 09:58 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: FormerTexan]
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if i got this thread off it's intended course i'm sorry,seems i'm saying that a lot here .lazarus first i should say i agree with you totaly in your first response ,i had all those same questions ,but i didn't ask anyone to convince me god is real ,i asked to hear what god had done for people ,and i was satisfied with the answers ,i may not agree that it's divine intervention ,but what i believe really doesn't matter in relation to the question asked. i know being a nonbeliever i have been preached to and told that i'm an idiot because i don't believe ,that i will burn in hell ,but isn't attacking people for what they believe the same as attacking people for what they don't believe? i have no more right to convince them they are wrong ,than they have to convince me i'm wrong. faith is i think a very individual thing if andy believes then in andy's world that is truth ,us agreeing or diseagreeing means nothing . if mark believes then even if i think it's not real it won't stop mark from getting comfort from what he believes and the way i see it i have no right to try to deny him that comfort. in fact sometimes i envy those who have some damn thing to believe in . again i'm sorry if i got this off topic evan


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#198992 - 01/11/08 01:49 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: evanesence]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Originally Posted By: evanesence
if mark believes then even if i think it's not real it won't stop mark from getting comfort from what he believes and the way i see it i have no right to try to deny him that comfort.


And that is one of the most powerful statements I've seen in this particular forum in a long time!

evanesence, you speak wisdom. I have never understood this urge we all have to make sure the other person believes it the way we do and if they don't we must get angry and make a fools of ourselves and lob insults back and forth at each other \:\) (yes, I've done it too, even on MS)

The way I see it is if we can discuss this stuff even in amicable disagreement we all may learn something.

There, I've said my piece. Thank-you evanesence for sparking my brain cells into action.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#199010 - 01/11/08 09:01 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: evanesence]
MarkK Offline
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Originally Posted By: evanesence
isn't attacking people for what they believe the same as attacking people for what they don't believe? i have no more right to convince them they are wrong ,than they have to convince me i'm wrong. faith is i think a very individual thing if andy believes then in andy's world that is truth ,us agreeing or diseagreeing means nothing . if mark believes then even if i think it's not real it won't stop mark from getting comfort from what he believes and the way i see it i have no right to try to deny him that comfort.
Thank you, Evan.

Mark


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#199044 - 01/11/08 01:42 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: MarkK]
TJ jeff Offline
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Quote:
"can any one give me an example of something god has done for you?"


Yes - I believe I can

I've followed this conversation and the others here recently that have had to be closed - I've felt that I needed to say something in them - just could'nt find words...

I'll try to find words today... - I hope this makes sense...

I - like many here - have struggled with the whole concept of "God" a LOT over the years of my life so far - for the first 18 years of my life I was forced to go to church every Sunday - to sit there and hear of all of the sin in the world and to know that the things done to me and that I was being made to do was "sin" and that I was doomed to hell cause that is surly what I deserved - I cannot even begin to count all of my prayers over the years for him to end the abuse - yet... it went on... - God never stepped in an ended it - for the full 18 years till I got out of there and into the military there was abuse in some form or another (18 years I'd believed that I got exactly what I deserved) - for those 6 years while I was in the military I did'nt think about the past - and I did'nt think about God - all i thought about was being the best military man I could be (I was indeed a top-notch sailer - perfect 5.0 evals - early advancements - numerous medals and commondations)- I got out at the end of my enlistment (Thank you Mr. Clinton for not giving a shit about me) and was totaly aimless in where to go with my life... - I spent the next 5 years spiraling down slowly (losing jobs - getting into money problems - finding out that I have a untreatable/uncurable genetic form of Muscular Dystrophy that I will have to suffer the rest of my life with - and then starting to look at my past and seeing it for the 1st time as posibly not being what I deserved) - then... at perhaps what I feel was the lowest i could have sank - a friend gently kept tugging at me to go with him to a bussiness conferance (he paid for me to be there - would not take NO for an answer) - it was a good conferance - but I will NEVER forget that Sunday morning... - they hold a non-denominational worship service - the leader that morning was Phil Driscol - I know this is going to sound plum crazy but I swear that all of what he shared with everyone there (thousands of people) it felt as if he was talking directly to me as if I was the only person in the room - when he led people in prayer at the end of the service - I felt something in me (wash over me) that I simply even yet cannot put words to (other than to say that I felt an all over warmth - a tingleing - and a peace and calmness inside of me I had NEVER felt before)- I walked out of that service feeling diffrent in some way - I just did'nt know what way... - took me till the middle of the afternoon when my friend said that he was going to go work out in the weightroom of the hotel we were staying in and I said "hey - wait for me" and the shocked look on his face - that was when it hit me... - all since that morning - there was no pain in my body at all - none - it floored me (and him) - and yet i could not explain it... - that night I had a dream - a dream I have shared with only a handfull of people and have to admit that I am scared to share here but i will - I dreamed I was a young child - I was in what seemed to be a neverending forest of humoungous trees - I was poorly dressed - basicaly in rags - it was cold - I was hungry - I was scared - it started to rain - I just wanted to die - I was as miserable as I'd felt for so much of my young life - then... out from behind one of the trees stepped a man who was surrounded by light - it's weird cause I could'nt exactly see his face (I always looked down at the ground anyways) - he just gently wrapped his arms around me - the cold was gone - the hunger was gone - I was'nt scared - I felt just totaly safe and at peace - I wanted to stay there forever - I woke up shortly after that -I don't remember him ever saying a single word but I woke up with the words in my head "I've always been right here with you - I've cried with you - you've never been alone"

Now please understand - I did NOT consider myself a religious man at that time - I had'nt even been in church in the past 10 years (except for christmas service with my folks - it's a family ritual - though they certainly are'nt good christian people)

but... - after that dream I guess it really started to working at my mind and the past and other inexplainable things... - which is where I will get back to answering the question... "can any one give me an example of something god has done for you?"

yes - I can give examples - examples that nothing in science can even come close to possibly explaining - things that at the time i just simply did not understand and wrote off to "luck"

example #1 - at 16 I was a young man filled with anger and rage who knew no way out of the life he was living - I'd not had my drivers liscence for very long - but... - driving like a maniac was my "release" (deserted counrty roads late at night) - my way to let out some steam... - one night after mom had had a few rounds with me I felt the house in a fit of anger that was just boiling over - I drove the back roads through the country driving like a madman - driving as fast as my modified car would go - not even paying attention to exactly where I was - just driving for all I was worth sliding the car throug the coners - suddenly I looked up and seen I was comming into "dead mans corner" at over 100mph (it's a corner that is posted to reduce speed to 25mph - though I'd made it through there before at 55) - I paniked - I froze - knew I was dead - next thing I knew I was in the ditch (it's a 6' deep ditch) - I was spinning - spun like 5 or 6 times - saw a field culvert in the ditch right in front of me - closed my eyes - knew I was gonna hit it - knew I was dead - next thing I know I'm directly centered in the road - at a complete stop - pointing back at the direction I had just come from - I sat there completely dazed for I don't know how long - I got out to looked the car over - not a scratch on it - anywheres!!! - I walked back down the ditch - you could see where the cars wheels just barely touched the sides of the ditch as it was spinning ("Something" had held the car up from sinking into the ditch and flipping over - and ejecting it out into the trees) - I looked all around the field culvert where I should have hit - not a mark to be found around it - simply no explaination at all as to how my car could have possibly have ended up back on the road again (especialy dead center of the road - i should have if anything have been propelled out into the trees by inertia) - I drove back home very carefully on a warm seat that night - not having any explaination at all in my mind for what had just happened

example #2 - my uncle had just gotten a new ATV - he wanted me to check it out and give him my opinion of it (mind you - I'm basicaly a proffessional level rider and this was a pre-release machine that the general public had not even ridden yet) - at his place in the country there is a course that is set up that goes around the property - it has a couple of jumps in it as you cross over the driveway - well, the first jump was totaly ok (10' of air)- the 2nd jump (20'+ of air) - as soon as the front tires touched down - I knew something was wrong - it was as if the suspension just collapsed out of the ATV - next thing I know the rear end of the machine is over my head and I'm headed right into a telephone pole - it's a brand new machine - a total of 16 miles on the odometer - I would not let go of the machine (even though that is what I should have done) - I had to try to save it - somehow... - I can only remember hitting the pole first and feeling the weight of the machine as it wrapped around me - uncle says I was out cold for close to 30 minutes (he thought I was dead at first - especialy after he looked at the machine and the way it had wrapped around me) - I slowly stood up - no broken bones - I surveyed the machine - it was basicaly totaled (later uncle took it to be repaired - $3,600 in damages to the machine - basicaly a whole new frame) - I walked away - the ATV did'nt - mind you... I was between the ATV and the telephone pole - the ATV wrapped around me - it was my body - not the telephone pole that did the $3,600 in damages to the ATV - and yet I walked away... - not even 1 broken bone (though I was bruised incredibly for many weeks after as a reminder to what I'd done)

I'm sorry this has been so long - and I thank anyone who has actualy taken the time to read all of this - it's just that I felt very deeply that i needed to answer this question that was asked here of "can any one give me an example of something god has done for you?" - and there just simply is NOTHING in science that can explain these 2 things to me (and yes - there are more "things" - but I don't want to write any more of a book here than I already have) - even though I did not understand it at the time that these 2 things happened - there is indeed a power at work in this world that is wayyy beyond my understanding - call it whatever you will...

TJ jeff

_________________________
Who will cry for the little boy? - I will... - Antwone Fisher

Abuse happens in silence/isolation - Recovery happens only when that silence/isolation is broken...

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#199289 - 01/13/08 11:09 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: TJ jeff]
Lou Offline
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Something good that God has done for us. This morning over breakfast my CSA BF and myself were talking about the National Western Stock Show that is now happening in a town near where we live.

It reminded us that one year ago, we took his daughter with us to this event and she is asthmatic. As we were driving along the interstate, we missed the turn for the park and ride so we decided what the heck, why not just drive on in all the way ourselves.

Part way thru the program, she began to wheeze and could not breathe. Her father asked her where her inhaler was and she motioned and nodded that she did not have it with her...it was in the car.

So, in frigid weather, he RAN out of the building to get her inhaler, me all the time praying that she would be ok as I tried to comfort her and assure her that she was going to be ok. It seemed like hours before her father returned with the inhaler, but I am sure it was really only minutes.

As we talked this morning, we were reminded again how God is in our lives daily....had we parked at the park and ride that was miles from where we were....who knows what would have happened to her!

Some may say that this is all just coincidence, but for us, we choose to believe that HE does walk with us through our lives daily, we just need to take the time to stop and think about him and ask him to hold our hands always and to do his will, not our will.


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#199317 - 01/13/08 04:50 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: AndyJB2005]
Danbuff Offline
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The air I breath, the feelings I have, my thoughts and darkness or light are not sources of science. Whether in my house or elsewhere, science has nothing to do with it. Did science create man?

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When you stumble, make it part of the dance.

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#199320 - 01/13/08 05:09 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Danbuff]
evanesence Offline
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who created god?


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#199321 - 01/13/08 05:14 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: evanesence]
bp83 Offline
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Loc: Arkansas
something I would like to know is, If God did respond to every request to end evil, who of us would be alive? Doesn't He get a bad rap for "killing" people in the old testament who sinned? Well, if He stopped all evil today, all of us would die, but instead, He is a loving and merciful God, so even the abusers He gives time to repent and see forgiveness.

You may scoff and say, "They don't deserve it...", or "I would be glad for Him to kill them, but not 'innocent' people"...that's also ironic, because the same kind of people who say that they wish God would do these things blast the U.S. government for using methods such as "waterboarding" to interrogate Al-Queda representatives (murderers and terrorists)...so our government is supposed to be humane with murderers, but God isn't? But then, when God has given examples in His Word where He did intervene and judge sin, He's still blamed for being unfair and cruel? Circular reasoning is right...men always look for excuses not to acknowledge the Creator--he wishes you would cry out to Him and blame Him for the abuse cause then at least you wouldn't be neglecting Him.

_________________________
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Scott

"Life is for living, we all know, and I don't want to live it alone..."-Chris Martin

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#199360 - 01/13/08 11:35 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: bp83]
bp83 Offline
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okay...I guess I'll take that as an affirmitive or that no one can answer my question...my point is made.

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Scott

"Life is for living, we all know, and I don't want to live it alone..."-Chris Martin

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#199934 - 01/17/08 12:20 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: bp83]
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I can't give anyone evidence, not the concrete kind many want, that God exists. But I know he exists. Call me crazy, but seriously, I felt Him hug me once. If was after the death of my 3rd or 4th child, I really don't remember, my life has been such a blur lately. I was sitting on the floor of my room. Alone, no one was home. I was praying, but I don't remember what. But I felt Fim behind me. Felt Him put his arms around me. Weirdest and most amazing thing I think I've ever experienced.



Edited by NoOneImportant (01/17/08 12:21 PM)

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#200001 - 01/17/08 08:05 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: bp83]
theatrekid Offline
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Originally Posted By: bp83
something I would like to know is, If God did respond to every request to end evil, who of us would be alive? Doesn't He get a bad rap for "killing" people in the old testament who sinned? Well, if He stopped all evil today, all of us would die


This statement to me insinuates that all people are inherently evil. I completely disagree with this notion. Few people in this world are Evil and they didn't start that way. a baby isn't born wanting to harm people it is learned behavior.


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#200899 - 01/23/08 01:02 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: theatrekid]
Freedom49 Offline
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I am sorry I have to laught when I read How can there be a God. I am almost 59 years old. My IQ consistantly measures 140 which isn't Genius by any standard but is not stupid either. And yet to contemplate the existance of God is an effort in futility if I just look around at science and nature. Here is the problem with God. I in my finite little mind and trying to grasp the concept if a All knowing, Omnipresent, God who exists in all the known dimentions that science believes exists. That is big. That actually is quite comfortable when you think about it. What is NOT comfortable is a PERSONAL god who has his own rules.
No one wants that. Unfortunately that is what we are stuck with. The God of this universe and who knows countless others is extremely personal. He was here at the beginning of man's existance if we are to believe him. All he wanted from us was companionship, loyalty and obedience. Not arbritary Obedience either. Obedience for our own safety and well being. He wanted us to be happy and healthy.
But that wasn't enough for us we wanted to be God ourselves. Still do. He wrote his law. his comandments in each of our hearts so we would recognize him because he is Spirit and for a while we are flesh. He tried to communicate with us over the long years with writings and prophets and oracles and even became thru a supernatural miracle which he frequently does, a human man. As a God/man he tried again to teach us that failure to love and obey his laws is hurtful to us and to each other and would bring death in this life and the life to come. He gave his own body and blood to pay this cost and reconcile us so we could be his companion and communicate with him again as friends. He took up his dead body and went back to the eather and sent a stronger manifestation of his spirit to be with us and encourage and comfort us. He gave us more writings and documentation through his followers and allowed it to be put into book form so that we would be reminded of his teaching and his care for us. After all that down through the ages of miracles, writings, teaching, incarnation well still look at the heavens and ask "ok but is there anyone else out there that we can talk to??"
I think we like God or the concept as hard as it is to understand. And remember we the finite are trying ot understand the infinite. What we don't like is an intelligence beyond our understanding trying to tell us how to live. Especially when we have gone thru what feels like hell already.
Is he there? oh yeah!
Does he care?, most certainly.
Will he help? oh yeah but there are rules.
He won't break them. Neither can we with out consequence.
The big problem everyone has with God is he is personal, and he has rules.
How we long for the "Force".

Matthew "Come unto me all you that labor and are heavy laden, I will give you rest. Come learn of me, my yoke is easy and my burden is light"

Roger


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#200901 - 01/23/08 01:15 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: theatrekid]
Freedom49 Offline
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A child is born. He is the center of his universe. As he gets bigger. He will want to be "god". He will want contol. Total control. If he is nice he will share control with others. If his is not so nice he will seek control of others. Then will come frustration and anger and pain. This is the good scenario. Most of us here have experienced the worst scenario. What he will seldom understand till he is old. Control is an illusion.

Roger


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#200933 - 01/23/08 03:17 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: BJK]
Danbuff Offline
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Bryan
I am taking a graduate level course in Spirituality and want to point out that Christains don't lay claim to the Golden Rule. Hardly! Every major religion and minor religions as well all sate the same teaching. It is in Jewish faith, the Koran, Buddhist, Aboriginal(Native American), Mormon, and even Wiccan. I can appreciate anyone who has trouble with major religions, Institutions and organized religion in general. All faiths have radical elements. Hence the terrorists who claim to behave under some devine message as they interpret the meaning in a radical way. Muslims, Christians or anyone. They are always the reasons behind war and chaos.The truth is all religions tend to share more in common than differences.

To blame or label Christians or anyone as bad is in effect acting the same as those you claim to be bothered by. That is not you persoanlly per se, but is a universal truth. As the saying that goes something like this, What is it about that person that I dislike that is also like myself.

While I am no theological expert, far from it, I do keep learning and find many of my long held anti-faith beliefs were misinformed. Admittedly, some were biased and anger based. I have however reached a different place and continue to learn. We can learn a lot from each other but when in doubt, question it to seek some other meaning. And sometimes, there are no "right answers"

Peace,
Dan



Edited by Danbuff (01/23/08 03:59 PM)

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#200988 - 01/23/08 08:42 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Danbuff]
theatrekid Offline
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Originally Posted By: Danbuff
The air I breath, the feelings I have, my thoughts and darkness or light are not sources of science. Whether in my house or elsewhere, science has nothing to do with it. Did science create man?


IT has every thing to do with science. every single thing in your life has a scientific explanation. whether you want to accept that explanation or not that is up to you. I you choosing to use faith to explain things is fine with me so long as there isn't a scientific explanation. But every thing you just mentioned is completely Natural there is absolutely nothing Supernatural about Air, Light, or your Feelings.

You ask did science create man. The answer is yes. Man is here because of Evolution, through millions of years of natural selection we have separated from other mammals and become the great species we are today.

Evolution has been proven. it is fact that Darwin IS Right! DNA shows us how closely related we are to other mammals. The fossil record has shown us the steps we took to go from lower levels of apes to the creatures we are today.Similar fossil records exist for all animals.

In laboratories all across the world testing has been done to prove evolution is real. The reason why a vaccine that used to work 25 years ago doesn't work today is proof of evolution at work.

Science can't prove that there isn't a god. because god isn't based on the natural world. God is a belief in the Supernatural. for something to be considered truth in science it must be observed that means you must be able to use your senses to experience it.

If some one finds comfort in there beliefs that is GREAT there is nothing wrong with that. by no means do i mean to tell someone they are wrong for following any religion. but they are beliefs you don't have proof to back them up. you have faith to back them up. the scientific community doesn't except faith as proof of something and I don't either.

Christopher



Edited by theatrekid (01/23/08 10:02 PM)

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#201025 - 01/24/08 12:29 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: theatrekid]
Freedom49 Offline
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I so wish the universe was that neat and tidy TK. You have only been here a short while. As you get older you will find a place in your universe for "faith". Mathematics did. That is why we have postualtes. Things in math which cannot be proven but which we believe and accept in order the make the rest of certain equasions work.

Science does not even completely function with out faith. And don't even get me started on Quantum physics.

Hebrews "without faith it is impossible to please God for he that would come to God must believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of them who diligently seek Him."

Faith in God works better than science. Most scientist who are any good operate from that bit of knowlege.

Roger



Edited by Freedom49 (01/24/08 12:33 AM)

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#201035 - 01/24/08 02:15 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Freedom49]
theatrekid Offline
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Roger I do not agree with your statement
"faith in god works better than science. Most scientists who are any good operate from that bit of knowledge."

Most scientists don't agree with this. There are a few mainstream scientists most notably the director of the human genome project Francis S. Collins who do chose believe in God. Your idea that a postulate in math equals faith I don't agree with either. A postulate is just another word for theory. A theory/ postulate is developed through observations over a long period of time.

for example take one of Euclid's postulates "A line segment can be extended indefinitely along a line." We dont know this for sure. your argument that we are taking on faith that this is true is wrong, because we are using observations to figure it out. we are saying this line segment has exteneded for the last 10 thousand tries along the line so so it most likely will be true for the next ten thousand tries. but maybe eventually we could reach a point on a line that prevents a segment from being extended. The postulate would be proven wrong and replaced.

I would love to get you started on Quantum physics \:\)

Science when practiced ethically functions completely without Faith.

Roger don't mistake were I am coming from I don't hate religion. It just isn't for me. I don't think people who believe are morons or crazy. I truly believe we are looking for the same answers just finding them in two different opposite ways. I do not believe I have once said you will come around and realize that I was right all along. It is not my goal to convince you to believe what I do. I am only giving my opinions on how I view the world.

I would appreciate if you treated me with the same respect. I am sure it wasn't your intention to offend me but when you said "as you get older you will find a place in the universe for "faith"." I found that statement very offensive. Many people who claim to be atheist or agnostic are really just angry at their own beliefs in god and rebelling against them. I see lots of people like that, I am not one of them. I have read the Bible, Torah, and several other religious works. I have put lots of time into finding my own spiritual beliefs. I have put more work into figuring out what I believe in than most people would in there entire life. I am not some kid who hasn't experienced enough of the world to really know his beliefs.

Christopher


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#201159 - 01/24/08 03:56 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: theatrekid]
Freedom49 Offline
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TK
Forgive and old guy. I do not mean to be condecending and offensive. Experience has given me my knowlege and perspective. I have watched over the years so my young people including myself look at the world as you do. Look at the concept of God as you do and then down through the years come face to face with the almighty and surprised by joy bow their knee as I have. You can throw out the bible and Koran and all the others doesn't matter until you meet the author face to face. Then science and nature and everything falls into beautiful place.
When God touched my skull and healed my brain and bone and gave me my life back at the request of my mother and my twisted father that was something no one could explain. But one thing I learned from that and many other experiences with him is he is not a formula, myth, force, or chemical equasion. He is a Person. The only way he will allow his existance to be proven is on an individual intimate personal basis.
It goes something like this "God if your real...prove it to ME." And not to many people are brave enough to sincerely open themselves to the creator in that honest fashion. It is so much easier to debate each other than to acknowlege he is in the room an just ask him.
Maybe I am just to old for this intellectual gymnastic.

Forgive me
Roger


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#201181 - 01/24/08 07:07 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: theatrekid]
MarkK Offline
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someone remind me - it IS still called "The Theory of Evolution" ... isn't it?


M


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#201182 - 01/24/08 07:19 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: MarkK]
Freedom49 Offline
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Yes it is, but don't say anything.


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#201185 - 01/24/08 07:32 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Freedom49]
FormerTexan Offline
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Mark, last I checked, yes.

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#201223 - 01/24/08 10:57 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: FormerTexan]
theatrekid Offline
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Roger you are forgiven \:\) i just wish you would open your mind to the possibility that Darwin was right. I have said on here that science can't prove the existence of god. I am not saying "prove it" at all. However Roger the idea that you need to accept god to see the world as a beautiful place dose not work for me. that idea makes you and millions of others happy and that is alright with me, i do not judge you for it. i just disagree. For me the idea that i have to accept an almighty creator into my life that has control over everything, but allows children to be abused, famine and disease to plague the world and genocides like the holocaust to happen is sickening. you can disagree with me all you want, but i will never be convinced. You say religion makes the world a better place but to me the world is already beautiful. I see wars fought over religion. I see religion used as tool by people to take control. I can say i am free to make my own decisions because i know what is right from wrong. not because of the divine but because of my own free will. I am here for a short time. billions of atoms all arranged uniquely to make me something truly unique. I find more majesty and power in that fact than i ever will in any thing supernatural.

Mark evolution is called a theory but it is a theory that has been extensively tested and proven. Science always leaves its self open for new ideas, but evolution through natural selection is considered by biologists to be a fundamental force of nature. the days of is evolution real or not are long since over.

Christopher


P.S.
If we have strayed to much from the original topic perhaps we should start a new post I dont know if we are still helping answer the original questions


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#201225 - 01/24/08 11:12 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: theatrekid]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Originally Posted By: theatrekid
If we have strayed to much from the original topic perhaps we should start a new post I dont know if we are still helping answer the original questions

Christopher,

I would agree with you. This topic has moved way off topic from the original question and as such perhaps you are right.

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#201226 - 01/24/08 11:17 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: evanesence]
Danbuff Offline
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To answer who created God is a fair question but also points to another divine mystery. Life is full of mystery and some questions go unaswered.

The mystery of faith is an example? How do people with such unyielding faith often suffer great ills and harm? There seems no sense or fairness in that. Yet abiding faith may be the strength that helped people get through. I have faced countless periods and situations where my faith was tested and I felt it would never come to pass (it can be any want or desire)...what I had wanted. Someone dear and near always told me I had to be patient and believe. Every time things worked out. That is somewhat a mystery like God is a mystery but for 2000 years people believed and still do. When I did not get what I wanted, it turned out for the best. Something better happened.

To go back to my original point...it is a mystery and there are some things that cannot be explained. I would rather believe and hope that my faith had some meaning when I leave this earth. Sometimes that is all I have but it is better than fear and despair. My faith in God is a comfort. To me the proof is in my blessings and my struggles. They both add purpose and meaning. If you don't buy that, then fine. No ones doubt will change my belief. I believe in mystery, faith and the power of good every time. Those who create fear, evil, harm and chaos apparently have little or no faith.

If this seems like a circular argument, then so be it. I don't have a need for proof that appeases he who doubts. I already believe and that works for me.

Peace,
Dan

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#201242 - 01/25/08 01:30 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Danbuff]
FormerTexan Offline
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Christopher,

"Mark evolution is called a theory but it is a theory that has been extensively tested and proven."

I don't mean to be a pain here, but when something is proven, doesn't it leave the realm of theory and come on board as straight-out fact?

Dan,

"How do people with such unyielding faith often suffer great ills and harm?"

Certainly a legitimate question. In my own personal study of the new testament, I concluded long ago that God never promised me an easy life. He does promise that if I stay faithful to Him, that I will get to spend eternity with Him. But in the here and now, I will have trials and tribulations. God never told me those would go away when I began to seek Him. I know the world seems pretty blasted unjust some days (Hey, I'm at MS, right?), but it would not seem right to save me from all of life's troubles just because I believe. That doesn't mean I will necessarily be left to the four winds either.

Andy

_________________________
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#201289 - 01/25/08 09:04 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: theatrekid]
MarkK Offline
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Originally Posted By: theatrekid
Mark evolution is called a theory but it is a theory that has been extensively tested and proven. Science always leaves its self open for new ideas, but evolution through natural selection is considered by biologists to be a fundamental force of nature. the days of is evolution real or not are long since over.


I understand there are many who believe evolution has been proven; and within a species I would say it HAS been proven. But not all scientists accept the theory (and it's called a theory because they can't prove it and change the notation to law, as in gravity, physics, etc). Not to mention for a LONG time the "fact" was you could never travel faster than the speed of sound.

Anyhoo - I can't prove (to your satisfaction) God exists. You can't prove (to my satisfaction) evolution is a fact. That's part of what makes life fun - the ability to disagree, discuss, and yet remain friends.

However for me, personally - I find my emotions are getting far too wrapped up in this particular post, and I stand the chance of grossly misinterpreting what other's have said or intended. So on that note, with all humility and respect, I am going to bow out and let this one continue without me.

Love you all.

M


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#201307 - 01/25/08 11:56 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: FormerTexan]
Danbuff Offline
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Quoting Andy
Dan,

"How do people with such unyielding faith often suffer great ills and harm?"

Certainly a legitimate question. In my own personal study of the new testament, I concluded long ago that God never promised me an easy life. He does promise that if I stay faithful to Him, that I will get to spend eternity with Him. But in the here and now, I will have trials and tribulations. God never told me those would go away when I began to seek Him. I know the world seems pretty blasted unjust some days (Hey, I'm at MS, right?), but it would not seem right to save me from all of life's troubles just because I believe. That doesn't mean I will necessarily be left to the four winds either.

Andy


Andy, While I am no biblical expert, my only answer is in the context of "Blessed are those who suffer, Blessed are those who weep, and Blessed are those who are poor, poor of mind, health and so on. My translation and many others who have much greater understanding is that in that suffering, they shall be rewarded in the Kingdom of God or for eternity.

That may seem trite, simplistic and hooey to non-believers but I certainly buy into it. Here are some examples of why I feel as I do.

Having been raised Catholic, I moved into young adulthood rejecting the Catholic church on every level. I would later go on to suffer many injustices. I would rail against the church and especially God. I was injured and bitter. I was inconsolable and felt justified. I used to mock the Pope. I hated all religion.

How could God have allowed his so-called leaders and representatives to create rules, engage in actions they did. How could the Vatican have such wealth? There were many actions and dogma that felt opposite of the Christian teachings. I was angry at my life. I was sexually abused, and mistreated inuntold ways. I suffered insecurity, confusion and rejection. I felt unloveable, unworthy and isolated from this so-called joyous life.

My background was one thing, then as an adult, life was harder still. I suffered social injustices, nothing seemed to go my way. I was gay and rejected. I got AIDS, I battled a corporation in federal court, my friends were dying, my employment was lost and a future seemed non-existant. I was a victim at every stage in my life. How could this be? Why did it happen? Why me God? Why? Those are some of the reasons I was angry and hurt. I hated living and the conlict seemed unending.

In desperation, at the brink of suicidal despair, I went to see a priest who was as cold and clinical as they get, I later learned he was a church attorney. He seems an attorney first and priest second. I trusted and believed in no one and nothing.

Fortunately, my path crossed with a gentle loving man who offered to help me. He recognized my brokenness and began to work with me. He was educated, a social worker and therapist and he was gay. We began to work and he made a number of statements about God's love and forgiveness. I was skeptical but at least someone was listening and genuine. I have since come to believe we met by purpose and design. It was not by coincidence. It was God at work. Why doesn't it happen to everyone? I don't know but maybe it has and they resisted or maybe it never will. It remains a mystery. But I met someone who really wanted to help me. He knew I was desperate.

So began a new chapter in my life. I recieved therapy, I found a trusted ally, and began to break down my walls of defense and bitterness. I started prayer. I had ups and downs but help was patient, tolerant, understanding and I began to feel a connection like I never knew. My curiosity grew and my desire to change and continue seeking help also grew. I slowly began to trust.

Along the way, I began to see things differently. I am not the only one who ever suffered, felt unloved, rejected or different. My pain and suffering was never minimized or compared. My T never allowed that and he would not allow me to do it either. I have learned that anyone who suffers and has problems cannot compare them to the plight of others who have even less or suffered more. Pain and problems that we suffer are as horrific and traumatic to us as individuals as we experience it. And what we suffer is as painful to that of those other people we see worse off.

Over time, I listened to examples and stories of lives of martyrs and saints, who lived in pain and suffering that seems unimaginable. They became spiritual examples, leaders and others lived humble lives in spite of their pain. They were examples and inspirations. The common thread was they all suffered greatly but had enormous faith in God and managed humility, displayed great love and kindness or did small but wonderful things in those lives even while suffering continued. I was and still am inspired by them. I began to search for meaning in my own suffering. I tried not comparing. I did find some profound similarities in all of those inspiring people. They loved God, believed in His love, His mercy and accepted all that challenged them. It still amazes me. Then I began to read>


Edited by Danbuff (01/25/08 12:38 PM)
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#201322 - 01/25/08 01:07 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Danbuff]
FormerTexan Offline
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Thanks, Dan. I am totally all about the freewill concept.

A

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#201590 - 01/26/08 05:49 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: FormerTexan]
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Part of being a human is having a mind that works in such a way that we must understand things in terms of relative explanations.

Relative explanations work fine for us in matters that are themselves relative. Why did Tom go to the store? To get a gallon of milk. Question answered.

But when applied to matters absolute, they can never reach a conclusion that does not call for another relative explanation.

When we humans asked the question "What is everything made of?", we started examining matter and finding smaller and smaller particles that make up matter. But at some point we have to ask, At what point does the question "what is it made of?" get answered? since every time a smaller particle is discovered the question comes up once again.

The same problem arises when we ask how we came to be here. We can say that some powerful, intelligent being created us, but if we say that our existence demands a relative explanation such as that, it really doesn't make sense to say that that explanation doesn't also demand a similar explanation and again, where does it end?

I have no wish to convince anyone who draws strength from their faith that there is no God. But it's clear to me that the OP here is being further victimized by beliefs that do not explain or give relief or meaning to his suffering. Only more shame and confusion.

The universe is creative and it's intelligent. These aspects of the universe, like the universe it's self, have no source or origin, they simply are. Things are as they are because that is the nature of existence. To attempt to explain it in relative terms is like trying to explain love in mathematical terms.

We can't "understand" the universe because understanding for us means being able to analyze it in relative terms. But existence it's self isn't relative it's absolute. It's of it's self so. In other words, it just is.

But there's no weakness in human thought that can't be used and religion has been used for centuries to control the masses with the promise of eternal reward and the threat of eternal punishment (which, if you think about it, defeats the whole idea of punishment which is supposed to be for the person's ultimate good--though whether it really is is debatable).

I'm sorry if this opinion offends anyone. That wasn't my purpose in stating it. My purpose was to share the realizations that gave me freedom from old ideas that no longer served me with someone who seems to suffer from them as i once did.

















.





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#201659 - 01/26/08 11:48 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: BJK]
Dude. Offline
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After what happened to me, I don't believe in god. I grew up in a Morman church and they teach that god protects his children.

Well, he didn't protect me.



Is man one of God's blunders, or is God one of man's blunders? ~Friedrich Nietzsche







Edited by Dude. (01/26/08 11:48 PM)

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#201664 - 01/27/08 12:03 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Dude.]
Freedom49 Offline
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I am so sad that happened to you Dude. I dont blame you for the way you feel. My perp was a preacher and my father, but if it wasn't for God I think I would be dead now. That is just me. You experience I am sure was different. HUGs


Roger


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#201668 - 01/27/08 12:15 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Dude.]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
I'm sorry...i'm going to end up saying things that will piss people off. I think i better keep myself from any more posts on this subject.


_________________________
My Story
My Art

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#202623 - 01/30/08 03:26 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: BJK]
diesel Offline
New Here

Registered: 01/29/08
Posts: 3
I am dealing with these questions myself. God may not be directly responsible for my abuse... and yet if he is God than he is in control of everything and must have allowed it. I think of Job (which I've read alot) and how he was answered for questioning God and getting angry... I still have these deep need to make sense out of what happened... to know that there was a purpose or reason... I don't want to think that I went through my csa... just b/c people are evil or b/c shit happens. If there is no plan, no reason, then I would have no purpose to keep pressing on.


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#202747 - 01/31/08 07:02 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: diesel]
buzz_key Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 635
Loc: USA
good points diesel.


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#202756 - 01/31/08 08:12 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: buzz_key]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2568
My purpose in what happened to me is that I'm going to do everything in my power to help others dealing with this. If I can get up the courage I want to start pushing for awareness in my area, as MS support is next to nill.

Just a few things I've found for purpose.


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#202781 - 01/31/08 09:47 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: JustScott]
mvnforwrd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 216
Loc: NJ
Kiwi64,
I also was abused by a man/priest. my abuse started when I was 13 and lasted for many many years repeadiatly. I am just realizing my relationship with my faith stopped when i was 13 because blinders were placed on my eyes. I continued to go to church because my mother made me. Then I got married and to keep the secret I still continued to go to church with the blinders on. My toughest issue is how can a man jerk you off or fuck you on a saturday nite then offer you communion on a sunday.

I am new to the healing process but I have realized that I need God in my life. What I dont need right now is organized religion. Man controlled religion. I pray to god 1on1. I havent been to church since JULY when I came forth with the abuse. I do realize though that this priest is a man. A sick man. A devil that has infotrated religion and because of this man doing what he did has betrayed GOD.

_________________________
Take your foot out of yesterday and your other foot out of tomorro or you will keep pissing allover today!

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#202809 - 01/31/08 12:22 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: BJK]
Barney Offline


Registered: 07/31/06
Posts: 236
Loc: Southern Utah/Northern Arizon
I once read something that helped me in my own question as to why God allowed my own abuse. The thought had to do with a benefit of my abuse was that I could stop the chain of abuse. I could stop another child from having to endure the impact of being sexually abused. Made sense to me as many abusers have been abused themselves. I could choose to stop the pattern and did.


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#202873 - 01/31/08 05:44 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
Squire01 Offline
New Here

Registered: 01/31/08
Posts: 1
Loc: Pacific Northwest
I am sorry that you suffered at the hands of a man who abused his responsiblity to guide and protect you. He was hiding behind his authority and the power of religion.

There is a God, I believe that and have a faith that Jesus, Emannuel(God with Us) is beside us in our pain and suffering. Job had many trials, yet he faith in God, not to make things all great and perfect....just that he is there.

As a father, I stand witness to my son's life. I don't necessarily intervene when I see him stumble and fall. However, I am there when he turns to me and cries. I can not take the hurt away. To do that would demean his experience, however I bear witness to him and offer what comfort I can.

I feel that God is in caring compassionate people as in this place. I can not take the hurt away, only bear witness, just as Christ did with his disciples, and they didn't get half the stuff he told them. Just look at Peter.

I think your wife is misguided. The trick is to let her have her experience and to walk with her. Your wifes beliefs are hers, yours are yours.
I don't know if that helps, however I hope you have a spiritual director who can help you.


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#203421 - 02/03/08 09:30 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
kiwi64 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Georgia, USA
This really seems to have generated some conversation. Thanks to all who have expressed thier opinions. We all have our own beliefs and whether you subscribe to a religion or a theory, there probably is not a right or wrong answer, as its our own beliefs.

I personally believe that there is a god, but I have come to think that while his love may be perfect, he is not a perfect being, although he can offer us salvation if we so desire and believe. The reason I think that he may not be perfect is that in the old testament we are told that God created man in his own image. We are also told about the serpent and its equating to satan. In the new testament we are told that Jesus went into the desert for 40 days and 40 nights to be tempted by Satan, and he conquered him. All this points I think to the fact that god may not be perfect because man is not perfect.

If man was perfect there would be no need for our boards and forums. Sure people may say that it is free will that lets people commit acts against us, but personally I think that this is a crock. People say this beacuse they can't accept that nothing is perfect, as we have been told to accept by organized religion.

I still feel confused, but accepting that God is not perfect means that I do not feel as empty as I did before. I will keep struggling ancd trying to understand.

_________________________
"the only limit to what can be achieved is our own imagination" Albert Eienstien

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#203432 - 02/03/08 09:57 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 10946
Loc: Denver, CO
"The reason I think that he may not be perfect is that in the old testament we are told that God created man in his own image."

Kiwi, that is a very interesting point. The best I found to reconcile this concept is to understand that an image is not equal to what it was created from. Take a copy made from a copier. It is an image of its original, but it is not quite the same as the original. It is degraded in some small percentage, and upon close examination it can be distinguished from its original. Using this logic, if I am made in God's image then I am not the same as God, to begin with.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#203468 - 02/04/08 05:33 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: FormerTexan]
kiwi64 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Georgia, USA
That is one perspective to look at it, I hadn't really thought of it that way, but who are we to say what characteristic's are our's (the imprefections) and what are Gods (the perfections) as organized religion would have us believe.

It is easy to say that the good ones are God's, and the bad ones are ours or Satan's, however I am not sure that is right. For instance, I don't believe that God set out to create peadophiles, but they definitely are around. From an early age we are taught in Church that God will protect children if you trust in him, but will he really. I asked that question over and over again when I was being raped by a priest as a child. I still don't have an answer, other than he is not perfect in our creation, but he is perfect in our salvation and his love.

_________________________
"the only limit to what can be achieved is our own imagination" Albert Eienstien

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#203478 - 02/04/08 07:41 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
JustScott Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2568
I guess this is one of those occasions where I feel led to chime in. This is my understanding of Biblical teaching and understand that there are others who don't view the Bible in the same way that I do.

My belief and understanding of being created in the image of God is the idea that as God is a Triune God (3 in One) so also are we triune in nature. In the Person of God, we have Father, Son, Holy Spirit. In man, we have Mind, Body, Soul. In both idea and function we can see them operating similarly. We see the Father sending and directing the activities of the Son and Spirit. Much like our Mind dictates our actions. Our mind sends the signal to walk, run, etc, but it is the body that actually carries that action out. In John chapter 1, we find that the Father determined to create, but the Person of the Son carried the activity of creation out, along with the work of the Spirit. I could go on with examples, but I have to be honest, since I turned around and began to face my abuse, my mind is just not at all as focused as it was.

Nextly, you will also find that the Bible tells us to be "Conformed to the image of Christ." The Bible teaches that Christ is God, so we're literally being told to be conformed to the image of God.... But we're made in God's image right???? So we have to dig a bit deeper. Yes we're made in God's image, but we're being told to live that image, or "live up to" if you will. If you look at Jesus life, he lived a life of complete and utter Love. How many human beings Christian or otherwise can say they have done so? How many human beings are truly trying to love one another? Heck, how many churches out there make people feel loved?

In another topic the idea was posed that someone wanted to see a persons actions more then their words. I agree completely. If a person says they are a Christian, but there is no love in their life, I seriouly wonder if they really know what being a Christian is.

Those who seek to be conformed to the image in which they were made, will love others, regardless of weather or not they agree with their beliefs, orientation, etc etc etc. Keep in mind that we're told that "God is Love". So love isn't just an attribute that God has, not just something He feels for us, but He IS LOVE. SO.... we're made in the image of love.... Follow that thought with the idea of being conformed to that Image.... I think allot of "Christian" people need to take the time to figure that out, and then truly love others around them.

Yes, I consider myself a Christian. I'm trying to love. It's hard sometimes, especially since my view and understanding of love has been so distorted by my abuse. But I am trying. I want to be conformed to the image in which I believe I was created.

That in mind, I know many don't believe in God. That's a personal journey and choice each of us has to make on our own. I personally believe there is a God. But even if somehow in the end it turns out I'm wrong, I think living a life of Love can only help. Not only myself, but those I meet and come in contact with ....those I Love.



Edited by JustScott (02/04/08 07:46 AM)

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#203480 - 02/04/08 07:58 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: JustScott]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 10946
Loc: Denver, CO
" For instance, I don't believe that God set out to create peadophiles"

I don't either. I believe He created man, then later man made some bad choices, and through that misuse of choice we've been broken ever since.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#203991 - 02/07/08 11:14 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
mvnforwrd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 216
Loc: NJ
kIWI.

KIWI I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING AND FEELING. I FEEL THE SAME. I DO BELIVE IN GOD BUT I ALSO HAVE A TOUGH TIME WITH "WHERE WAS GOD TO PROTECT ME FROM THIS ABUSE".(BASED ON WHAT I WAS TOLD IN CHURCH THAT GOD PROTECTS AND HAS A PLAN FOR EVERYONE!

OK SOME MAY SAY THINGS ARE MENT FOR A REASON. WELL I CAN EXCEPT THAT IF YOU WERE RUNNING LATE FOR WORK AND YOU MISSED GETTING INTO A POSSIBLE ACCIDENT OR FINDING 20$ ON THE GROUND IN TIME OF NEED. BUT NOWAY SHAPE OR FORM WAS ME BEING ABUSED MENT AND IF IT WAS THEN GOD IS TO BLAME FOR THE MESSED UP LIFE I WENT THROUGH AND WILL GO THROUGH. i DONT NECCESARRILY BELIVE THAT GOD IS THE POTTER AND WE ARE HIS CLAY. I WOULD RATHER THINK OF IT AS WE ARE THE TABLE AND GOD IS THE LEGS.(MEANING) GOD IS THERE FOR US WHEN WE EMOTIONALLY AND SPIRITUAL NEED HIM ...A ONE ON ONE. TO CLEAR THE HEART AND SOUL.

JUST A THOUGHT THANKS FOR LETTING ME SHARE MVN4WRD

_________________________
Take your foot out of yesterday and your other foot out of tomorro or you will keep pissing allover today!

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#204000 - 02/07/08 01:20 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: mvnforwrd]
VLinvictus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: NY
I like your idea, mvnforward. That's relatively close to what I myself believe.

There's this generalized image of God being some kind of combination of Santa Claus and Superman who is supposedly all-seeing and all-powerful and all-loving -- and yet things like the sexual abuse of children and genocide still happen. God is therefore either not all-powerful, not all-seeing, not all-loving, non-existant, or totally different from and beyond our conception.

To me, only the last two make sense and jive with my experience of the world. Either there is no sort of "God" at all or the God that exists is something so radically different that It cannot be properly understood by the human mind and that the Santa Claus/Superman in the Sky is just a poor attempt by finite human minds to grasp the Infinite.

There is no evidence or proof that God exists, and I could accept that. However, I have a few times experienced a sense of peace and connection to something greater than my limited self which subjectively leads me to believe that there is something more to what we see and touch and feel, that the whole is greater in some way than the sum of its parts and that can give a sense of strength and support -- like your image of the legs of a table.

I cannot believe, however, that things happen for any predetermined reason as part of some cosmic plan. Any supposedly omnipotent being that would cause or allow things like the abuse we have suffered, 9/11, or the Holocaust would be a monster to be hated rather than loved. The evil in the world comes instead from the human mind and heart and the fact that the universe is still a work in progress.

OTOH, that's where all the hope and joy in the world can be found as well.

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#204400 - 02/09/08 06:01 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
Poet24 Offline
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Registered: 02/09/08
Posts: 36
Being abused by a man of the cloth is the ultimate betrayal, and perhaps most damaging because it damages your relationship with God considering the priest is a mediator between God and man, or at least is supposed to be.

It is not a matter of GOd allowing it to happen, he gave man free will, and that is something he does not hinder or intervene against, if he did we would be little more than pupets with God pulling the strings. I know it feels like you were betrayed by God and for the lonest time I, and I'm sure most of the men here, have felt abandoned by God at one point, even betrayed by Him, but I realized not too long ago, that to him, and to our human condition, free will is vital, and sacred. God didn't allow it, and he did not abandon anyone or betray anyone, he was right next to you, holding you close and crying just as much as you.

Faith and spirituality is personal and no one has the right to tell anyone else what they are when it comes to religion, that is something only you can discern and figure out. You don't have to condone the church in order to be religious.

You are a christian, you are loved by God, and He felt your every pain just as real as you. But don't be too tough on your wife, like I said, it is hard, if not impossible, for a non-survivor to really understand a survivor no matter how hard they may try. Just remain sure in your spirituality regardless of how strong it is, God apreciates every level, and loves everyone at every level.

Peace toyou all and God bless,
Poet24

_________________________
THe spirit is a fragile thing, easy to break, but not impossible to fix.

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#204815 - 02/12/08 02:30 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: BJK]
Anonymous
Unregistered


The suffering down here will not compare to the reward in Heaven.


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#206231 - 02/19/08 07:38 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Anonymous]
VLinvictus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: NY
A perverse person (OK, me) might say that the suffering down here argues in favor of the existence of God.

Life is complicated. Life is full of misery and sorrow, pain and shame and guilt, complex contradictions of emotions, a discordant symphony of feelings. The most simply biological functions -- things animals do without thinking -- are fraught with dilemmas. Should I eat this? Will this make me fat? But it tastes so good! Wow, he's sexy! I'd like to mate with him! But I'm stuck with the other one. I feel attracted, but then guilty and ashamed, etc.

Human life, human conscious, is hideously and unnecessarily complex. This complexity has no selective benefit. It merely allows us the creativity to do ever more unspeakable things to each other and to feel ever more bad about what happens to us.

If life, the universe, and everything really were the result of a cosmic accident, how is this possible? By what infinitely improbable permutations could inanimate atoms combine themselves into such a pattern to evolve brains that can create such miserable, messed up, pain-filled minds?

Life, in short, sucks (generally). Life is complicated. Life sucks because it's complicated and is complicated because it sucks. Such complexity necessitates an intelligent creator. A sadistic creator, but a creator nonetheless.

Call it the theory of "Malevolent Design." \:\)

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#206247 - 02/19/08 09:33 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: VLinvictus]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16263
Originally Posted By: VLinvictus
It merely allows us the creativity to do ever more unspeakable things to each other and to feel ever more bad about what happens to us.

Oh God, I hope not! \:D

Seriously, you raise some very interesting arguments which I will not try to refute, but just say I find them fascinating to think about. Can't say I agree necessarily, but I guess that's not a requirement.

Thanks for sharing this perspective. It was enlightening.

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#210945 - 03/15/08 11:07 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
kiwi64 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Georgia, USA
I still feel the pain of the actions, I don't agree that God will not interfer with free will. On the contrary, I believe that he does and that this is the reason why there are miracles in human nature.

By the same token, I am not sure what the purpose of the suffering that any of us have gone through is, but there are two miracles that I see. The first is that in various stages of our struggle, we have survived the attrocities that were brought upon us. The second is that we have found enough courage in ourselves to speak out and support one another through venues like MaleSurvivor.

In this day and age, manliness is still measured by how strong we are percieved, to "tough it out" is the norm, yet whatever our orientation is, our manliness has been questioned by society, in that male sexual abuse, particularly in the church is not really either understood or accepted. Through the two miracles that I spoke of, it seems that we are able to establish an identity that we can grow from, that we can get help from and ultimately triumph over those who used "free will" to harm us, but what a way to have to get there. Maybe this is the purpose god had for us, maybe everyone who contributes or even cares is being touched by gods will. Therefore I believe that to feel abandoned is ok, and that my pain and suffering was part of a bigger plan, in my case, some sort of sick plan, but a plan that can help others none the less.

In this case it seems that it is gods plan, rather than so called free will that those that are hurt are also chosen to survive and grow, if they want to.

This is just my thoughts on the matter, and through the responses to my original question I have seen a number of perspectives, so I thank you all.

David

Maybe we are here because we can give voice to the anonomus sufferers who feel that they must live in silence with thier own struggles and pain.

_________________________
"the only limit to what can be achieved is our own imagination" Albert Eienstien

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#301879 - 09/06/09 02:34 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
Charlie24 Offline


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 562
I think this is a great topic and have wondered this myself.

It often seems more and more the world just gets fucked up.

What's with that shit man?

When I have had this discussion with others they say evil was created by humans that god damn apple.

I really would love a good solid answer to this question. Really wanna know the final answer to this question.


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#301900 - 09/06/09 08:11 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
kerberosesti Offline


Registered: 09/04/09
Posts: 20
Loc: MN
kiwi64

The question of God and evil is the hardest we face. Much has been written.
My abuser also was a member of the cloth. I find a great quest to see how the church has been handling this. The answer is badly. It is not just God that has allowed evil, it's supposedly good people. And they lie about it. I can see how it leads people to look for spiritual meaning outside of a church setting.

Indeed this thread has generated much comment. It seems to cover most of the bases. However, all our perception of God comes from a culturally derived perspective. Somewhere I believe that there is a final answer but not one that I will know in my lifetime.
In the mean time my trust in God is that he will bring me to the final answer, not that he will make my life easy.

Which brings me to the other part of the original question. I have not read all the posts on this subject but did not see a repsonse to the question of how do we handle the pain.
I think all of us comming here get to the point where we hit the wall of pain where we feel we can't go on any more. I'm not a therapist so don't have technical answers. And given the situations, going to church is a source of pain for many and not a solution. Yet forms of meditation can be helpful. Coming to an understanding that we are all worthy persons takes a lot of process especially in a world that does not value all persons. And we keep coming back to the same question: If God loves me, why the fuck do i hurt so much.
I also think that making these posts and reading what others have said opens the door a crack.

Not everyone shares this thought and i can go with that as well, but I do expect to see y'all one day in the great banquet hall.

Kerberos


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#302097 - 09/07/09 09:38 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kerberosesti]
alan55 Offline


Registered: 08/19/09
Posts: 202
Loc: Seattle, WA
It's difficult to know the answer to this. Humans have wondered this since time immemorial. Coming from a biblical standpoint, I believe it began with the first rebellion against what the Creator had intended : a life with Him. Adam and Eve chose to listen to the serpent - notice however the "fruit" is not mentioned by name so we don't know what they ate (in my opinion it was a mango...they taste weird!)Then, since humans were not created to be robotic in their responses (hence the choice to believe or not - otherwise belief in a Higher Power or God is not volitional but forced and God does not force Himself on anyone). Since then, humans have had to deal with what others do or don't do. I have also wondered - since I truly do believe there is a God who loves me and has always loved me no matter what. There was a book written a while ago about the Holocaust. I had relatives from Austria (4 of them) caught up in all that storm. The book was called "Was God On Vacation?" I think most of us in here wonder the same thing. Do I blame God for what happened to me? No. Do I wonder where He was? Yes. This sorrow, this pain, this emotional hurt will one day be gone and,as Kerberos says, one day we will be beyond this and it won't hurt anymore.


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#302146 - 09/08/09 11:49 AM . [Re: BJK]
bardo213 Offline
Guest

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 811
.


Edited by bardo213 (06/21/13 09:21 PM)

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#302251 - 09/08/09 11:16 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: bardo213]
stripthesoul Offline


Registered: 04/13/09
Posts: 10
This is something I'm really struggling with right now. I really want to believe in God, but why would he/she/it create a world with so much pain and suffering in it, seemingly for no real reason? I've read a lot of answers to this question, and talked to a lot of my religious friends about it, but none of the answers seem satisfactory.


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#302273 - 09/09/09 12:47 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: stripthesoul]
alan55 Offline


Registered: 08/19/09
Posts: 202
Loc: Seattle, WA
I think some of us in here have said before...the original creation was not filled with pain,or sorrow or tears or hurt. That all was brought on by human effort - in that Adam & Eve didn't believe God when He said for them to eat of any tree in the Garden except the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. OK, now you'll ask why the tree was put there in the first place. I wasn't there I don;t know. I do know that,and I said it in my last posting, we are not robots. We are given choices. Mankind chose to not do what was asked of them. I know it doesn't answer the question fully, but allow your struggling to lead you to some answers.


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#409748 - 09/10/12 06:23 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 411
Loc: USA
I was led to believe wrongly that I was beyond God's love, that my own questions and even anger could keep me from Him. God has shown me that this is all a lie from the evil one, I felt like I stood on the perimeter of the Church, never being able to belong because of my CSA. That started around 6yo for me, and lasted many years along with the verbal and physical abuse. As proof that God loves me, he directed me to a Christian counselor who taught me first that none of it was my fault, and not to believe the lies. I am woking on understanding it now as I just started T again. I am absolutely sure that I have a renewed and stronger relationship in Christ. No one around me is perfect, Christ is and he has forgiven me even for my anger at Him. I talk to the Spirit daily and I know God loves me. He does not care where I have been, only where I am going. A good book Im reading is called Victory over the Darkness, and it's on Amazon.com. You are loved by Him, as we all are, and we all can move forward in Him too.
_________________________
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.” - Plato

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#409754 - 09/10/12 07:07 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
Country Offline


Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 642
Loc: Alabama
Amen Buff. Well said brother
_________________________
Ephesians 6:13

Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

Ephesians 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

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#409760 - 09/10/12 09:12 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 827
Loc: Kc,Mo
All of your shortcomings all of your past failures
The liabilities in your life are nothing more than opportunity for God
Put God in all of that and it is called a Testimony
Take God out of that and all your are left with is
A life of shame guilt and condemnation & deservedly so
This is why The Savior came to Save us from ourselves
To do His will Not our own will

meaning God is sovereign he knows all things and knowing man has free will he has provided a way out he has given a savior knowing full well the hell on earth we would and could cause each other through sin .
This is sin at work God did not choose to let this stuff happen man in his sinful fallen state chose to let this happen . But what God can and will do is give you a Savior Jesus Christ the only one who can relieve the past the guilt the shame the self condemnation.
If one only denies self the self that brings sin the self that has denied the Christ , he will in fact alleviate the sin the guilt the shame the condemnation for there truly is no condemnation for those who love God .

So I say take God out of all the trauma and child abuse and and the sin we have experienced in out life and we are left with this hell on earth this shame guilt condemnation and powerlessness to sin

Put God in the midst of all that and suddenly there is meaning there is purpose being able to have a testimony to help others out of the mud whole through the power of The Holy Spirit . It is a another story with God in the midst of the situations and circumstances that have gone on in or lives . Put God in all of this and you can look and see all of the time God was in fact there all the times we dismissed him and all the times that he has taken the negative and turned into something wonderful .
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http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=339159#Post339159
Why i hate Religion but love Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

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#410562 - 09/18/12 08:43 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
Country Offline


Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 642
Loc: Alabama
The better question here is " how can there not be a God"? For everything , and I mean every single creation there is a creator. Fact. The earth didn't create itself. The oceans just didn't appear.

But I do wanna ask Noah when I see him why he didn't swat the 2 Mosquitos. I mean for real Noah. Help a bro out down here in the south. Them little biting gnats too that are pound for pound the baddest creature on Earth. Haha
_________________________
Ephesians 6:13

Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

Ephesians 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

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#410568 - 09/18/12 10:00 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
Steve0123 Offline


Registered: 05/30/12
Posts: 80
Also ask him why he didn't save the dinosaurs smile

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#410569 - 09/18/12 10:04 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
Country Offline


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Haha. On the list Steve
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Ephesians 6:13

Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

Ephesians 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

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#424685 - 02/08/13 12:02 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
BuffaloCO Offline


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Is God consistent with the knowledge of science. Google it but I say yes. As a Christian I believe that here in the natural, vs. the spiritual, God gives us free will. Christians, even children, are not free from the free will of others. Does God care? Yes, He can and has taken all that was meant for my harm and turning toward my good. I am healing now more then every before, because He has led me to the right people who are helping me. Do I understand it all? No, but I know this, my faith has set me free from the lies of the enemy, who told me providing sex was all I would ever be good at and good for. I am no longer defined by evil, and in fact I was never defined by it. God does not care where I have been, only where I am going and the depth of my past indicates the height of my new future now.
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#434675 - 05/14/13 05:05 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
reality2k4 Offline
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If you live your life, true to God, then you will indeed reap the rewards, that you deserve.
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#434690 - 05/14/13 09:07 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 2972
Loc: O Kanada


very interesting. worth the watch.
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#434849 - 05/16/13 01:28 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: reality2k4]
Magellan Offline
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This is simply not true.

41 years old, devout christian as a child. Thrown to the wolves, neglected, ignored, bullied, and then developed homosexual feelings against my own dreams of being a good devoting christian.

I've had a long and tortured life, in spite of all the work and soul searching and seeking out "God".

No benefits here. Nothing but pain and trauma.


What do you tell people who have fought their entire lives to gain sanity, connection, spirituality, and love and failed?

And what do you tell 3 year old children in Africa who die of AIDS? Did they deserve their suffering?

I can't believe in a God that designs a universe to make innocent people suffer.

Originally Posted By: reality2k4
If you live your life, true to God, then you will indeed reap the rewards, that you deserve.
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#436691 - 06/03/13 03:42 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 2972
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this documentary answers a lot of questions.
it also questions a lot of answers.

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#436696 - 06/03/13 04:20 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 2972
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for those interested in research, history, religion, mythology, theology, psychology...
for those who search for wisdom, knowledge, and truth...
for those willing to invest the time...

i recommend the "Mystery Babylon" series by William Cooper.

smile http://archive.org/details/MysteryBabylonSeries-WilliamCoopertranscriptIncl

smile http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr35KYcNoaM

smile http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl5GZEz3prk

smile http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jZXUqEkwTs

smile http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEGtfCIb3V0

i also highly recommend anything by Joseph Campbell
(co-creator of Star Wars according to George Lucas).
especially if you can get your hands on "The Power of Myth".

smile http://billmoyers.com/spotlight/download-joseph-campbell-and-the-power-of-myth-audio/

smile http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl5GZEz3prk

smile http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwPh4dHDmx0&list=PL6447317C9EF176AD

smile http://www.youtube.com/user/campbellfoundation

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#436698 - 06/03/13 04:28 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Magellan]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 2972
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dear magellan,

how to put suffering into perspective.
a detailed in-depth study of the book of JOB.



and another look at the book of JOB
http://vimeo.com/15315450

Originally Posted By: Magellan
This is simply not true.

41 years old, devout christian as a child. Thrown to the wolves, neglected, ignored, bullied, and then developed homosexual feelings against my own dreams of being a good devoting christian.

I've had a long and tortured life, in spite of all the work and soul searching and seeking out "God".

No benefits here. Nothing but pain and trauma.


What do you tell people who have fought their entire lives to gain sanity, connection, spirituality, and love and failed?

And what do you tell 3 year old children in Africa who die of AIDS? Did they deserve their suffering?

I can't believe in a God that designs a universe to make innocent people suffer.

Originally Posted By: reality2k4
If you live your life, true to God, then you will indeed reap the rewards, that you deserve.
_________________________
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#440024 - 07/04/13 06:50 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 2972
Loc: O Kanada
some interesting and thought provoking documentaries on this subject...

The Signs of God's Existence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS1x-6al2pE

God of Wonders: Scientists prove Almighty God's existence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvVt4lDSPeY

"Science Refutes God" Debate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKNd_S3iXfs

Is there evidence for God?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBInzDv3zE0

Proof there is no God.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4GaTts_5DA

The Evidence for God from Contemporary Physics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYfaOJATh_U

In the Beginning Genesis 1:1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmfU-g6Ohpk

have fun smile
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#444892 - 08/21/13 12:29 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: victor-victim]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 2972
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came across a lively debate between atheist and judaeo/christian monotheist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKeqrtnJ9jE&list=PL1705A06E04875F14
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#448445 - 09/27/13 02:53 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 2972
Loc: O Kanada
yet another interesting point of view.

The Absurdity of Life without God

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-absurdity-of-life-without-god

"if there is no God, then objective right and wrong cannot exist. As Dostoyevsky said, 'All things are permitted.'"

"If God is dead, then man is dead, too."

-----------------------------
and the atheist perspective

Atheism and Meaning

http://www.investigatingatheism.info/meaning.html

“Atheism... has generally taught that both individual human beings and (eventually) humanity as a whole have no purpose in the universe, and that they will be definitively annihilated in the course of time...”

here is a great website with lots of information.
http://www.intelligentdesign.org/whatisid.php
plenty of food for thought.

"Intelligent design refers to a scientific research program as well as a community of scientists, philosophers and other scholars who seek evidence of design in nature. The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.
Unlike creationism, the scientific theory of intelligent design does not claim that modern biology can identify whether the intelligent cause detected through science is supernatural."

------------------------
added on October 4,2013.
here is George Carlin's view on religion.
very closely resembles my "former" opinion.

i thought and talked like this for most of my life.
GC sums up most atheist arguments in one monologue.

while i still have my doubts and weaknesses,
i DO NOT think like this anymore.
now i feel disrespectful and arrogant whenever these thoughts enter my mind.
i stand humble and ignorant before my creator, unworthy to criticize his creation, having created nothing myself, being only a creature.

warning: offensive language and religious satire.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmrjxo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_tr_k59O6s



Edited by victor-victim (10/04/13 05:06 PM)
Edit Reason: added link
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#448760 - 09/30/13 08:35 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: victor-victim]
SoccerStar Offline
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Registered: 10/15/12
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Originally Posted By: victor-victim
yet another interesting point of view.

The Absurdity of Life without God

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-absurdity-of-life-without-god

"if there is no God, then objective right and wrong cannot exist. As Dostoyevsky said, 'All things are permitted.' If God is dead, then man is dead, too."


This is both an Appeal to Emotion and an Appeal to Consequences logical fallacy: it doesn't address whether there is a God but rather how people would feel and act if there were no God. Such sentimentality does not answer any question of import and is usually just a tactic meant to guilt people into shutting up.

"Right and wrong" are the adapted results of human social development, and obviously vary far more widely between different cultures that believe in different gods than within a single culture where some members believe in god and some don't. Someone who thinks a person who does not pray like they do must be immoral is - themselves - revealing misanthropic tendencies that have spelled out some of the goriest chapters of our history. You might as well say that atheists don't enjoy the taste of chocolate cake.


-----------------------------
Quote:
and the atheist perspective

Atheism and Meaning

http://www.investigatingatheism.info/meaning.html

“Atheism... has generally taught that both individual human beings and (eventually) humanity as a whole have no purpose in the universe, and that they will be definitively annihilated in the course of time...”


First - this is not "the atheist perspective". It is almost certainly written by a theist who is trying to be fair to the other side but struggles with nuances.

Second: "Generally"? People really don't want to start talking about human well-being and religion in "general" terms.

It is false to say there is no expectation of purpose in an atheist life. Rather, there is no expectation of supernaturally-decreed purpose. People can find plenty of meaning in their own lives, the lives of others, something bigger than themselves, by valuing life and the world they experience around them - not because they are told they themselves have no value and the only thing worthwhile about themselves is a magic spell cast by an invisible genie from another dimension. Once again, those who project dangerous nihilism onto people without religious faith are only exposing their own propensities towards violence that apparently can only be held in check by superstitious warnings.

And, sure, ultimately the individual, the species, and all matter as we know it trends towards annihilation. So what? Throw a bunch of atheists and a bunch of believers into a burning building and they'll all run for the door all the same.

One could very fairly ask about how much value is given to life if you believe you actually get two of them, if you get a "do-over."

Quote:

here is a great website with lots of information.
http://www.intelligentdesign.org/whatisid.php
plenty of food for thought.
"Intelligent design refers to a scientific research program as well as a community of scientists, philosophers and other scholars who seek evidence of design in nature. The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection. Unlike creationism, the scientific theory of intelligent design does not claim that modern biology can identify whether the intelligent cause detected through science is supernatural."


Oh ugh, no. If people want to make an intellectually forthright religious truth-claim, go ahead and do it. But ID is a lie, a media campaign that no one actually believes in - as everyone purporting to believe it always asserts the designer to be the Abrahamic God. Being untestable and unfalsifiable it is NOT a scientific theory, and anyone who claims it is is either ignorant or dishonest. The fact that an early ID textbook included multiple uses of the term "crintelligent designeror" due to an incomplete use of global replace should tell you all you need to know of its fraudulent nature. And if you want to read more, look here - the final nail in ID's coffin, where all of its strongest proponents were exposed as charlatans and bullies, the credibility of the movement destroyed forever (you might say, annihilated):

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District


Matt
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#448766 - 09/30/13 10:01 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
WriterKeith Offline
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Registered: 12/30/10
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Interesting discussion.

I've always liked many aspects of going to church: the camaraderie, the sense of doing something traditional, and of family custom. Like many, I'm drawn to the idea of being a part and contributing to something bigger than myself, something universal.

But something started disengaging me from those "warm and fuzzy" feelings when the pulpit messages became focused on political and social power, on "worship center" building luxuries, and on the "us vs. them" group mentality.

Somewhere the message of "the gospel" was brushed aside to demean, judge, and ostracize anyone who behaved, looked, believed, or thought differently from the group.

Through the years I have worked with and befriended many people whose beliefs contradict mine, and that is how I recognized the exaggerations and lies many impassioned pastors tell their congregations to fortify their established groupthink.

I was an associate pastor at a Baptist church when the AIDS epidemic broke loose in the 1980s. It was also the period Jerry Falwell was building his political powerhouse. During this time I also worked at Trinity Broadcating Network, (TBN). I could fill volumes about the vile, sinister, and unconscionable statements those circles made about others. Turn on 700 Club and Pat Robertson is sure to deliver a daily sample.

It boils down to market share. "Leave your group and come join ours; we're the only ones that are right."

Something is unraveling in the worldwide church, and it's happening from the inside out, largely based on a fear of facts and provable science.
_________________________
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JfvAPZGjds

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#448772 - 09/30/13 11:18 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
On The Fringe Offline


Registered: 09/21/13
Posts: 269
Loc: Southeast USA
I think people have free will to do evil aside of god.

The hostage situation in the Mall in Kenya was a literal house of horrors. If you have not read any of the reports, do so with caution. It is every brutality known to man in one place.

CSA is another thing. Boggles my mind. As a veteran, I would have no issue dropping a trigger on a CSA perp as a terrorist.

Similar result of pain and terror.

The whole religious justification of murder, genital mutilation, and prejudice is sickening.

I don't understand why people just gravitate to evil so often.
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#448912 - 10/01/13 05:59 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: On The Fringe]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 2972
Loc: O Kanada
"i don't understand why people just gravitate to evil so often" either, i can't answer for them...

but i know why I did (and still do).
i am weak.

MATTHEW 26:41
"Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
http://biblehub.com/kjv/matthew/26.htm




ROMANS ch:7
"I do not understand what I do.
For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.
As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.
I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.
For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing
."
http://www.biblestudytools.com/romans/7.html


we all have our own cross to carry.
if i choose to use my cross as a crutch,
if i decide to follow christ
i feel no shame in that.
i need a crutch.
i am crippled.


LUKE 22:42
Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

JOHN 6:38
"For i have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me."

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#450025 - 10/13/13 01:53 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
mattheal Offline
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"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg 1979 Nobel Prize Physics
_________________________
It's okay to find the faith to saunter forward
With no fear of shadows spreading where you stand
And you'll breathe easier just knowing
that the worst is all behind you
And the waves that tossed the raft all night
have set you on dry land
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#450026 - 10/13/13 02:57 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: mattheal]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 2972
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many religions are an insult to god.


disclaimer: in my opinion


Edited by victor-victim (10/15/13 01:30 AM)
Edit Reason: added disclaimer
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#450073 - 10/13/13 04:14 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: mattheal]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 411
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: mattheal
" But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg 1979 Nobel Prize Physics


I think "religion" can take many forms, including the worship of money, power and control. That's the only way the above quote could explain people like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Kim Jung Il, Jeff Dahmer or Jim Jones. Yet, some would maintain the argument against religion only applies to Christians and Jews. None of the above mentioned (clearly evil people) were either by the way. Several were atheists too and others agnostic. Even so, to say all atheists or agnostics are evil, is as bad as saying the same thing about all people of faith.
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#450575 - 10/18/13 04:37 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: BuffaloCO]
victor-victim Offline


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#450645 - 10/19/13 01:21 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: mattheal]
On The Fringe Offline


Registered: 09/21/13
Posts: 269
Loc: Southeast USA
Originally Posted By: mattheal
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg 1979 Nobel Prize Physics


A guy with that sort of animosity can't be objective on the topic.

Or...

Haters gonna hate....
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#450650 - 10/19/13 02:50 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 411
Loc: USA
Totally agree OTF, though the counter argument we get might be: well you started it. I don't agree with that either.
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#450753 - 10/21/13 08:02 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
Still Offline
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Serious Question:

If a person does not believe in God or some deity, what do/ought we believe-in?


Somehow this thread went off the rails into religion. Its not addressing the original question.
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#450778 - 10/21/13 09:59 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
traveler Offline
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good point, still!

all of my beliefs would probly not be totally accepted by any known "religion." and i am often too afraid to articulate them because of the fear of criticism, judgement, and rejection. lots of preconceptions and false assumptions out there. wish we could focus more on the positive points instead of the negative ones. sounds so trite but ...

LEE
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sometimes in doubt, but never in despair;
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and though badly hurt at times, we are not destroyed.
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#450780 - 10/21/13 10:10 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
BuffaloCO Offline


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Posts: 411
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My pastor said recently that we should focus more on what we are for, instead of what we are against. Doesn't mean we have to give up who we are but might make the idea of being a believer less scary to some.
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#450785 - 10/21/13 10:21 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Still]
SoccerStar Offline
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Originally Posted By: Still
Serious Question:
If a person does not believe in God or some deity, what do/ought we believe-in?


That since this life is all you get, it matters. Since earthly justice is the only justice you can ever hope for, work towards it ever harder. That community, empathy, learning, kindness, and sustainable / non-destructive behaviors should be encouraged.

Honestly, the emotional life and day-to-day values spectrum of your typical atheist is no different from your typical believer. Chocolate cake still tastes good regardless.
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#450787 - 10/21/13 10:24 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 411
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I don't agree that earthly justice is all you can hope for. Nor do I accept that the day to day values spectrum of an atheist and a believer are the same. Sorry, but not buying into either one.
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#450788 - 10/21/13 10:29 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
SoccerStar Offline
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What evidence (like, behavioral outcomes) leads you to believe their day-to-day emotions and values are different?
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#450807 - 10/21/13 12:34 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
tbkkfile Offline


Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 112
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BuffaloCo - You have your beliefs and I guess that one of them is that God will judge you by your actions. I happen to believe that there is no God but my actions and my day to day values are no less than one who believes that there is.
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#450810 - 10/21/13 01:13 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: SoccerStar]
Still Offline
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Originally Posted By: SoccerStar
That since this life is all you get, it matters. Since earthly justice is the only justice you can ever hope for, work towards it ever harder. That community, empathy, learning, kindness, and sustainable / non-destructive behaviors should be encouraged.


Looks like we have the beginnings of an outline:

I - All to be encouraged: Below

A. Community
-
-
-
B. Empathy
-
-
C. Learning
-
-
D. Kindness

My very non-sarcastic, non-"oh yeah???" question regarding this outline thus far: "Based on what?"

It seems we have a basic understanding of "good" items. A muslim may say "learning? Learning the Koran and the women don't learn....or drive."

"Kindness? To whom?" the Nazi asks.

"Community?....yeah....the marketing whiz comments..."a ready-made market!" Wrings his clammy hands and dollar-signs appear over his head.

The Pedophile would say "hey...I really need this kid and I truly don't think it hurts him to have such a fine elder in his life." So he's right??? or is he wrong?

Where did our fundamental behaviours come from?

What I'm getting at, is; the atheist adheres to some codes of human conduct. But I'm wondering where they think those ideas came from? A communal basic idea of good-and-bad, right-and-wrong have to have an original source.
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#450811 - 10/21/13 01:24 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: tbkkfile]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 411
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: tbkkfile
BuffaloCo - ...my actions and my day to day values are no less than one who believes that there is.


I did not say they were less, I said they are not the same. There is a difference.
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#450813 - 10/21/13 01:34 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: SoccerStar]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 411
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: SoccerStar
What evidence (like, behavioral outcomes) leads you to believe their day-to-day emotions and values are different?


Kind of a broad question and more then a little off topic as well. I won't be dragged down a road of comparing this vs. that either. Clearly to me, people of all walks have different values and emotions even within the same "groups".
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#450821 - 10/21/13 02:35 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
SoccerStar Offline
Member
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Registered: 10/15/12
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Loc: New York
Quote:
It seems we have a basic understanding of "good" items. A muslim may say "learning? Learning the Koran and the women don't learn....or drive."

"Kindness? To whom?" the Nazi asks.

"Community?....yeah....the marketing whiz comments..."a ready-made market!" Wrings his clammy hands and dollar-signs appear over his head.

The Pedophile would say "hey...I really need this kid and I truly don't think it hurts him to have such a fine elder in his life." So he's right??? or is he wrong?


This is a different discussion: instead of "what do you believe in if you don't believe in God?," we have an example of a Muslim who presumably does, a pedophile of which there are no shortage among the devout (not just the Catholic clergy conspiracy issue but also Ultra-Orthodox / Haredi Jews and the Amish have institutionalized pederasty and the protection thereof - and that's just in the U.S.).

So since a believer and an atheist can each do good or evil things, the question really is:

"What makes some beliefs better than others?"

Once you accept the underlying premises of empathy, respect, order, and the value of life, a supernatural agent makes no difference.

Quote:
Where did our fundamental behaviours come from? What I'm getting at, is; the atheist adheres to some codes of human conduct. But I'm wondering where they think those ideas came from? A communal basic idea of good-and-bad, right-and-wrong have to have an original source.


Humans are social animals - it is part of our evolutionary history. We are safest, we thrive, physically and emotionally, in communities. Those communities are best maintained with a minimum of in-group violence, theft, and dishonesty - and for the life of me I cannot think of a single human culture that does NOT forbid in-group violence, theft, and dishonesty.

Highly intelligent, we are not only self-aware but able to conceptualize that other humans have feelings like we do - our ability to sympathize with them reflects our own mental health and proper socialization.

If we had evolved as sentient, oh, crocodiles, which are independent, antisocial, and cannibalistic, those would have been our norms - our "good." Instead we evolved from highly social creatures and have adapted towards behaviors that for the most part keep that society going, by seeing other people as we see ourselves.

I've highlighted "in-group" many times because humans are also aggressive and warlike, in most cases extending no sympathy to their enemies when crime and slaughter are quicker alternatives. The more mentally-healthy people can properly conceptualize the emotional lives of others, the larger that "in-group" becomes: hence, white abolitionists.

Our big evolved brains are complicated things, and complicated things can go wrong. People in all cultures, of any faith or none at all, can be psychotic, sadistic, clinically lacking in empathy.

But if you want to know where "good behavior" can come from for most people (including most atheists), that's where.


Matt
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#450824 - 10/21/13 02:43 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
Still Offline
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Well, I just got a call that my 4-year-old step-niece is at death's door from a respiratory and systemic sepsis. I know to whom I will petition for healing, miracles, or intersession.

And I have seen miracles with my own two eyes.
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#450826 - 10/21/13 02:55 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: SoccerStar]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 411
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: SoccerStar
[quote]
...a pedophile of which there are no shortage among the devout (not just the Catholic clergy conspiracy issue but also Ultra-Orthodox / Haredi Jews and the Amish have institutionalized pederasty and the protection thereof - and that's just in the U.S.).
Matt


I think this statement is the real reason behind the comment. That being to say yet again to believers that "there are pedophiles in your ranks!" Seriously? We know that. We also know pedo's are in the ranks of every group of people, not just people of faith, so what's the point? To come into the spirituality thread just to attack believers for that reason? A lot of people find healing through their faith, and I don't say that has to work for anyone who is not a believer. It works for me and many others however. Why is that a problem?
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#450831 - 10/21/13 03:12 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: BuffaloCO]
SoccerStar Offline
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Registered: 10/15/12
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Originally Posted By: BuffaloCO
[quote=SoccerStar]
Quote:

...a pedophile of which there are no shortage among the devout (not just the Catholic clergy conspiracy issue but also Ultra-Orthodox / Haredi Jews and the Amish have institutionalized pederasty and the protection thereof - and that's just in the U.S.).
Matt


I think this statement is the real reason behind the comment. That being to say yet again to believers that "there are pedophiles in your ranks!" Seriously? We know that. We also know pedo's are in the ranks of every group of people, not just people of faith, so what's the point?


That was not my meaning at all and I apologize if it came out that way.

I was not the person who brought up pedos at all. We had been talking about the atheist argument for morality, and that led to someone else's counterpoint that, hey, everybody believes in SOMETHING - even Muslims, pedophiles, Nazis, and ad execs. Which cannot lead to anything other than pointing out that *this only further decouples the purported religious requirement for morality*. I also pointed out that the Muslim was a believer; I neglected the ad exec and the Nazi, and they could go either way.

My point was that there are material, evolved explanations for what we call morality, based on the human need for protection in groups. That is "where it comes from," from that perspective.


And Still - regardless of this academic matter, you and your family are in my thoughts and I hope your step-niece has a full and rapid recovery.


Matt

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#450841 - 10/21/13 04:12 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
BuffaloCO Offline


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Loc: USA
Yet, no direct link to any other groups with pedophiles, just believers, with the "there are no shortage in the ranks of the devout" added in for emphasis, so that's why it feels like an attack to me, and still does.

Then there is the decoupling the purported religious requirement for morality comment. I don't claim that you have to be a person of faith to have morals, and I don't know anyone who does. Our faith, however, is a source of morality for us in how we understand and define it, and every bit as valid as an academic argument. You don't have to agree. Again, not saying you have to have faith to be a moral or good person.

"My point was that there are material, evolved explanations for what we call morality, based on the human need for protection in groups. That is "where it comes from," from that perspective."

On that last point it seems to be you are saying a sense of morals or values can only come from a human experience, needs, etc. and from no where else. For me it comes from that and also my faith. If that means we both treat each other with kindness, why is the source of my moral view a problem? If either of us broke the law and harmed another person, we would face the same penalty, well depending on the judge or jury maybe.
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#450857 - 10/21/13 05:56 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: BuffaloCO]
SoccerStar Offline
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Registered: 10/15/12
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Originally Posted By: BuffaloCO
Yet, no direct link to any other groups with pedophiles, just believers, with the "there are no shortage in the ranks of the devout" added in for emphasis, so that's why it feels like an attack to me, and still does.


Then that was a case of me being too subtle for my own good. "No shortage within the faithful" is deliberately not the same as "exclusive to the faithful" - it leaves implicit that pedos can be among the irreligious as well. Again, for not having made that point clear I am sorry.


Quote:
Then there is the decoupling the purported religious requirement for morality comment. I don't claim that you have to be a person of faith to have morals, and I don't know anyone who does.


See, funny thing - that was what I was taking as the message of several prior posts.

Quote:
"My point was that there are material, evolved explanations for what we call morality, based on the human need for protection in groups. That is "where it comes from," from that perspective."

On that last point it seems to be you are saying a sense of morals or values can only come from a human experience, needs, etc. and from no where else. For me it comes from that and also my faith. If that means we both treat each other with kindness, why is the source of my moral view a problem?


It isn't. I said "from that perspective" in order to specify that I was answering the question of how someone with an atheist perspective could explain morality. I did not mean to cast any aspersions on other methods and hope my word choice did not cause bad feelings.



Matt
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#450908 - 10/21/13 11:32 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 411
Loc: USA
All fair enough I think. This whole path to healing is so different for everyone. We have different stories, and shared hurts, would be nice if we could find a shared path, or share a path for a while. Maybe that's one more thing abuse takes from us, the ability to share a path safely. Still, we talk and that's a start.
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#450912 - 10/22/13 12:04 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 2972
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i have a hope that people come into the "spirituality" forum to bring more spirituality in their lives.
why else would someone be curious enough to come to this section of the website?

even if someone feels the need to resist and ridicule it,
as i once did...
it is still a good thing to experience exposure to god's love, (if only a dim reflection).

a believer is like the moon, trying to reflect sun shine to the night side of the planet.
the moon has it's own dark side, and cannot continuously provide light.
it can only function according to the position it holds relative to the sun, that is the source of the light it wishes to reflect.
even at maximum, the imperfect light reflected by the moon can never compare to direct sunshine.
at minimum, the moon is a black hole in the sky, that will even deny you the tiny light of distant stars.
it is hard to for any mortal to confirm or deny the existence of immortal beings.
even those who worship gods cannot understand them, let alone explain them.

i have always believed that any definition of god is blasphemy.
to claim a monopoly on morality is not only presumptuous, it is preposterous and perilous.

we can only wonder and ponder the beauty and horror of this life and death, as measured by our own experience.
the creature cannot even comprehend the creation, let alone the creator.
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#450922 - 10/22/13 02:35 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: victor-victim]
Jacob S Offline
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Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 550
Originally Posted By: victor-victim
i have a hope that people come into the "spirituality" forum to bring more spirituality in their lives.
why else would someone be curious enough to come to this section of the website?


Views of religion/spirituality can affect healing. Being able to process our views of spirituality in light of what we have been through might be useful. I would think the purpose of this forum should be as much about helping us shake off unhealthy aspects of this issue, since that is a necessary step in coming to a more healthy position. I know when I first started being interested in this forum I was hoping for a place where I could deal with how UNhelpful religion/spirituality has been to me. I have since realized attempting to articulate that in a way that doesn't make people mad is too difficult to be worth it. But, at least for me, that was the reason I first became interested in this forum.
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#450970 - 10/22/13 11:12 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
BuffaloCO Offline


Registered: 07/14/12
Posts: 411
Loc: USA
I'm not sure Jacob, but maybe it's better to focus on things that do work and not those that are unhelpful. I don't post in several areas of the site as some of the ideas there get me angry, frustrated, whatever. So now I don't even go and read there now. Those other threads help people, and my thought is why add to their pain but adding comments that are negative about how the topic has not or could not work for me? It would not help me, and make others angry, so there is no benefit either way. Just my thoughts, but I am sorry you feel slammed in this thread.
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#450996 - 10/22/13 04:10 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: BuffaloCO]
Jacob S Offline
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Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 550
Buffalo,

I appreciate the response. I don't feel slammed in this thread but thank you for the sensitivity (and yes I have chosen to become mostly inactive on this forum for reasons similar to what you state). I was responding to Victor-Victim's question about why besides wanting to increase spirituality someone might be curious about this part of the site. A spiritual/religious background can still have influence and be something needing to be worked through even if we are not currently religious.
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#451022 - 10/22/13 10:10 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
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This topic is closed.

It appears this significant topic has reached the end of it's course. Using the discussion board to explore opinions, situations, thoughts and emotions is beneficial and healthy, until such time that the discussion undermines the goals and purposes of MaleSurvivor, which is to co-create a comfortable and safe environment for the healing recovery of male sexual abuse victims. This topic has been thoroughly discussed, delving into academic issues in debate does not promote the mission of this site. Site management continually strives to provide an environment safe for the purpose of pursuing one’s recovery from the effects of past sexual abuse. We strongly feel that while religious topics will be posted, debating on the site in any forum needs to be secondary to healthy community building, that any difference in belief or thoughts be shared, then respectfully deferred for the community, save for private conversations between equitable parties.

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