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#197890 - 01/04/08 02:16 PM Jesus Christ
Lazarus Offline
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Don't know if this should go in the "Spirituality" Forum or here, but I'll start here;

Did anybody see the show on the History Channel about the "Missing Gospel of Mark?" The subject of the show centered around newly discovered documents that seem to fill a noticeable hole in the Gospel of Mark.

These documents tell the story of a young man that Christ raised from the dead. Afterwards, this young man becaume obsessed with spending the night with Jesus. It says that on more than one occasion, the young man 'covered his naked body only with linen' and went to 'Be' with Jesus, and usually spent the night while Jesus taught him about the Kingdom of God. The young man's name was Lazarus. How curious is that?

The implication of the show was clearly that Jesus and Lazarus were lovers (or at least fuck-buddies) and that this information was intentionally cut from the gospel as Mark originally told it.

Just wondering who else might have seen this show and what you thought about it.

Ric
aka Lazarus

P.S. I did not pick the name Lazarus as my handle for any biblical reason. Lazarus Woodrow Wilson Libby Long Smith was a character in a series of science fiction novels by Robert Heinlein; he was 'The Man Who Could Never Die'.

P.P.S. I searched both Nistory.com and Discovery.com and couldn't find any direct links. On the History Channel, there was a series called "Banned from the Bible" but the de>


Edited by Lazarus (01/04/08 06:02 PM)
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#197902 - 01/04/08 03:31 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: Lazarus]
FormerTexan Offline
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Lazarus,

In the early 90s, I engaged in a personal study of apocrypha versus pseudopigrapha. I feel compelled to classify this latest "finding" with the fictional likes of the Da Vinci code. Even if this finding is an authentic writing from long ago, it may well belong among such pseudopigrapha as The Infancy Gospel of Thomas or The Acts of Peter.

There is also a strong possibility numerous people interjected other writings along the way to sabotage Paul and the other apostles' efforts. For example, many followed Paul from city to city to accusing him publicly of dissension and heresy, etc. Every attempt was made to smear his message. And if the message could not be stopped, go for the messenger.

Question: what language did they say this "missing" piece is written in?

Andy

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#197903 - 01/04/08 03:41 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: FormerTexan]
Lazarus Offline
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Seriously Andy, I couldn't tell you what language it was written in. I've been trying to find that episode again to review, but I can't seem to locate it. That's why I was wondering if anybody else had seen it.

The show certainly could have been pure sensationalism; I'd never quote the History Channel as 100% fact. It may have been as biased as anything else shown on television. I just thought it would be interesting if it were true.

And thanks for increasing my Word Power. I had never heard of the words 'apocrypha' or 'pseudopigrapha'. I had to look them up.

Lazarus

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#197907 - 01/04/08 03:51 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: Lazarus]
FormerTexan Offline
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Lazarus,

You raise a good point in that the show itself could be simple sensationalism. I didn't stop there - I went all the way back to Jesus' time! lol

Sensationalism is definitely not restricted to our era. It existed in biblical times as well, and ever since.

Apocrypha and pseudopigrapha are interesting writings at best. These are books which were not canonized due to popular doubts in their authenticity.

Andy

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#197909 - 01/04/08 03:56 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: Lazarus]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Hey Lazarus!

I know that History.com has episodes for sale, I don't know if you want to buy it.

As far as I'm concerned, this account of what happened is just as credible as anything else in the Bible. I think it's just another piece in the quilt work of early Christianity. A lot of people think that Christianity in its beginnings was just one group, but really, it was a lot of groups -- who sometimes argued about what stories were and were not true, and what in general was and was not true. It wasn't until the Roman Empire adopted it that it became congealed into one (or fewer, when Luther came around) sects.

I don't believe inclusion in the Bible necessarily denotes truth no more than any other story. It just fit the church more. \:\)

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#197911 - 01/04/08 04:01 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: AndyJB2005]
FormerTexan Offline
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Andy,

"this account of what happened is just as credible as anything else in the Bible."

I cannot agree with this statement. The bible as we know it was canonized with a methodology. It was not a case of simply flinging a bunch of books together and foisting it off on the world by some unknown author with no regard to future royalties. If this History channel had anything to offer on this "missing" piece such as the language it was written in, then we have a running start. Without a few simple facts of origin, it would have to be written off as pure sensationalism.

Ultimately, it is up to the reader/listener to believe what they wish, but I like to think that a bit of research could be utilized to bolster the point of view, whichever it may be.

Andy



Edited by FormerTexan (01/04/08 04:09 PM)
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#197915 - 01/04/08 04:39 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: FormerTexan]
mogigo Offline
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I read about the "Dead Sea scroll's" and they have been in the possession of the Catholic church for over 50 years, they're reason for not releasing them is that they are having trouble translating them. A very small part of the scrolls was released to an outside source and they were translated and released within a year. Nothing revolutionary in the release.

I'm not saying anything about what is or isn't in Jesus' writings but I think it's obvious that other motives are involved in what we know and don't know about what Jesus was actually saying.

Everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt, especially from such an organization as the Catholic church. We question every other "big brother" type org, why would we think such a powerful org. as The Catholic church would be any different.

Of course they have their own agenda.

Mike

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#197918 - 01/04/08 04:47 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: FormerTexan]
Lazarus Offline
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Andy, I appreciate your faith, and the time you have spent studying it. You are certainly not one of the 'sheep' who blindly accept everything under the general heading of 'gospel'. You have obviously put a lot of thought into your beliefs and I respect that.

While I cannot quote the language of the missing gospel, I'm certain that the 'experts' producing that episode portrayed the language, composition and physical attributes of the tests as being perfectly legitimate. I just can't argue that point unless and until I review that particular pseudo-documentary.

We all know the story of Lazarus as mentioned in the Gospel of John, not of Mark. However, it is common to find references to similar events in many different Gospels.

In Mark, the oldest and generally considered most accurate gospel, there is a suspicious 'disconnect' between two adjacent verses (If I find which ones, I'll let you know) that implies a lapse of 3 or more days while Jesus was visiting Jerusalem that was simply not commented on.

in 1958 Columbia University's Morton Smith found manu>
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#197919 - 01/04/08 04:50 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: mogigo]
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Just want to say that I think Jesus was the most incredible man in the history of mankind. The church, not so much.

Mike

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#197920 - 01/04/08 04:57 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: mogigo]
Lazarus Offline
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OK, Mike - given that, would anything in your opinion of Jesus change if you found out that he slept with a young man whom he had just resurrected?

Just curious,

Lazarus

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#197926 - 01/04/08 05:32 PM Re: Jesus Christ *DELETED* [Re: Lazarus]
MarkK Offline
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Post deleted by MarkK


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#197933 - 01/04/08 06:18 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: MarkK]
Lazarus Offline
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I certanly don't want to step on anyone's toes with this thread. Personally, I could really care less whether Jesus slept with a man. Doesn't change my opinion one bit.

I just wanted to see how everyone else felt about this.

Respectfully submitted,

Lazarus

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#197934 - 01/04/08 06:38 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: Lazarus]
MarkK Offline
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uhhh .. if that's to me - you didn't step on my toes. i was just sharing my opinion (or thought that's what i was doing).

so if i upset you, i am truly sorry. i never meant to do so.

m


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#197935 - 01/04/08 06:59 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: MarkK]
Lazarus Offline
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Oh no, Mark. It wasn't directed at you at all, but just a general statement, like a disclaimer. You didn't upset me at all.

I know it's a sensitive subject, and thanks to a PM conversation I was having with one of the Moderators, I came to re-think my motivations about posting this. I discovered a lot of "it is not my intention to..." this or the other. It IS my intention to ask other gay men, religious or not, if they saw the broadcast and how they would feel if it were true. That's all.

It's always a quandry whether to put these topics in this forum or in the Spirituality forum. Of course I'd like to invite comments from anyone who is willing to talk about it respectfully. The question is whether this is more about geing Gay or about being Christian. I think it's more about being gay.

I don't want to be accused of 'Jesus bashing' and if it looks like this conversation starts heading that way I'll ask the Mods to move it into the Spirituality Forum.

Sharing opinions is good. That's exactly what we are doing, Mike.

Ric

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#197941 - 01/04/08 07:08 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: Lazarus]
FormerTexan Offline
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Ric,

Something you said might be a good topic for another thread: target audience versus non-target audience. After all, we can't prevent a non-target audience from seeing what we intend for another group. I guess it's just the nature of the board.

Andy

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#197944 - 01/04/08 07:18 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: FormerTexan]
BJK Offline
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Mark,

You've read my posts, and you know my stance on theism in general. I just want you to know that your non-judgemental opinion on your religious views is one I truly respect and admire. Please, don't be ashamed of it.

Bryan

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What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
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Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#197950 - 01/04/08 07:30 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: Lazarus]
mogigo Offline
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No, it would make me think what I already think. That the church has only let me know what they want me to know. Although you're de>
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#198245 - 01/06/08 02:42 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: mogigo]
Lazarus Offline
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Mike, I had thought of that too. And another thing: just what does the bible classify as a 'young man' or a 'youth'? By all accounts it was the young man who made his desire clear to Jesus, but then again the text states, "Jesus commanded him to come to him. Covering his naked body only in linen, the youth went to Jesus and stayed the night with him, where Jesus taught him of the Kingdom of God."

The more I read this, the more I think it must be a hoax. The phraseology is just to easy to sensationalize, if that were your intent. It is likely that the author of this IS just Jesus-bashing.

Laza... I mean Ric

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#198251 - 01/06/08 03:39 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: Lazarus]
mogigo Offline
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Agreed Ric, makes me think of the way anything can be made into a sexual overtone if spoken the right way. " I'll tune YOU'RE engine", "I'll butter YOU'RE bread", "I'll pet YOU'RE kitty" lol.

Mike

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#198273 - 01/06/08 05:46 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: mogigo]
Danbuff Offline
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I would like to add some commentary here perhaps in defense of the Catholic Church which is by no means close to being a perfect institution. To characterize the church as another big brother seems a bit extreme. While I respect differing opinions, I will point out that I think the church is far better and far more than some of it's past and recent history.

Yes there has been scandal and rightfully so over the evil perps who victimized boys for years. That is an ugly irrefutable fact. However, it probably accounts for less than or slightly more than One percent of priests worldwide and perhaps in America. In ancient history there were corrupt church leaders and some rather bizarre disputes and un-Christian like events. That is not the sum of the church.

I would offer the fact that nuns and missionaries have created the first educational systems ever and continue in that still today with excellent academic result. Some of the practices are and have been arguably strict and even archaic. That was also a different time in history. Some Catholics in orders, have done untold acts of charity with the impoverished, poor and sick all over the world and throughout history. The icons and symbols I have heard rants over as being excessive and intimidating to being scary actually were offered as teaching symbols for many people who could not read. Catholic churches were built with great faith and by monies collected from people who wanted them in many cases. Historically, spiritual guidance, hospitals, schools and orphanages have been hallmarks of the Catholic churches. The likes of Mother Teresa and St Francis of Assisi are two well known examples of the Catholic church and there are countless others less notable.

As a practicing Catholic who once struggled with many teachings and various other aspects, I now look at the larger picture. No matter what your beliefs are, I respect them and would only ask for the same from anyone else. I think it is tremendously harmful and unwarranted to imply otherwise. In fairness and for balance, I post this. My hope is that the Catholic church be seen in a larger context than that as a corrupted monolith.


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#198282 - 01/06/08 06:39 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: Danbuff]
mogigo Offline
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You are arguing over the Catholic faith not the Catholic church, two very different things.

One other thing you point out is that the abuse by less than 1% of priests is not the sum of the church, you are right the sum of the church is the cover up that insued after. Again take what I say as a statement toward the church not the faith. You would never have to defend the faith to me.

Mike

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#198287 - 01/06/08 07:00 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: Danbuff]
Lazarus Offline
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Dan,

I agree with you completely. The positive effects that not only the Catholic Church but Christianity as a whole far outweigh the notoriously sensationalized bad apples. There are bad people in every group. But the good works and decent people that characterize Christianity in general and the Catholic Church in particular are a significantly positive aspect of our society. Personally, even though I am an athiest, I would rather live in a world where Christian teachings exist than one where it is missing. Your point is well taken.

I had never intended this thread to be an attack on either Christ or any Christian church.

That being said, I have to add that I don't think it is a fair characterization that homosexuality is a sin, any more than it is to say that Christianity and Catholicism are corrupt. I don't deny your defense. I hope more people would not deny mine. I'm sorry I digress; that is a topic in another thread.

This is a Forum for discussing issues specifically relating to abuse survivors who are gay. This topic has moved from sexuality to spirituality, and therefore should probably be moved to the appropriate forum. Andy, are you listening?

Respectfully submitted,

Lazarus

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#198289 - 01/06/08 07:05 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: mogigo]
Danbuff Offline
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Mike, my statements seem pretty clear about both the institution and faith. I will quote a person I spoke with today after church. "Dan Berrigan(a famous anti-war priest in the 60's) who said, "the Church is a whore and I hate her, the Church is my mother and I love her." All of us who call ourselves Catholics, have many feelings, both good and bad, about the Church, including me. However, I find those with the most anger at the Church, are those that have other issues, i.e., sexual abuse. The Church, an authority figure, is also father-mother figure. Unresolved or conflictual issues with parents, abuse, or just plain bad parenting, often leads to such feelings".

Mike, I am not arguing . I am pointing out that the church is far more in sum than of it's parts. I hope we can have disagreements on points and continue to support and respect each other in the process. This is a place of learning and healing and I want to see both. Unfortunately the church is an easy target and understandably so. However, I am just trying to look at the whole picture.
Peace,
Dan

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#198290 - 01/06/08 07:07 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: Lazarus]
Danbuff Offline
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Laz,
You are absolutely correct in your points.And yes perhaps moved to spirituality "aint" such a bad idea.
Peace to all,
Dan

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#198301 - 01/06/08 08:19 PM Re: Jesus Christ [Re: Danbuff]
mogigo Offline
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Of course we can support and respect each other Dan, I'm with you 100% on the teachings of Christianity. I think my over all point was that the church makes decision sometimes with more regard to itself than it's teachings. ie: moving abusive priests around rather than dumping them. I have never questioned the teachings themselves just the sometimes questionable leadership. Those poor decision were made by the Father/Mother (or maybe big brother) types in the church and have nothing to do with the faith but everything to do with an organization. I think almost 100% of Catholics if asked what to do about abusing priests would never come up with the answer to switch them to another area. All leadership organizations need to be questioned, after all they are just men.

I'm going to stop now, I hope you'll reply if you have any words Dan, I will always love to hear them. But I think Laz is right I'll wait to answer anything until it's moved to correct section.

Oh, and I have no anger over the church, just an opinion.

Respectfully and enjoying the discussion
Mike



Edited by mogigo (01/06/08 08:23 PM)
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