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#197738 - 01/03/08 09:33 AM A difficult question to me about homosexuality
alexey Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 1674
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Hi, how are you doing?

I wanted to ask you a question that I myself don't get the answer to.

It is about the roots of homosexuaity. Lets start with what we know about sexual abuse not leading to homosexuality, only to confusion about one's sexual orientation and identity.

I don't consider myself gay. I have recently talked to a guy from my work who have two twin boys aged 2 yo or something..

I told him that sexual orientation develops early, in the first 3 years of life. He started to get thoughtful and asked me what then leads to homosexuality of kids in the family? I told hm not to worry about that but I questioned myself. In fact I don't know what parental behaviour and/or absense of one parent contribute to developing homosexuality. He said he knew that if one parent is absent from the family then the child is likey to become a homosexual. I doubted it, but I don't know it myself.

Could you please provide me with your thoughts on this question?

Alexey

_________________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
E[:]|||||[:]3
(")_(")
--------
When you feel all alone and unhappy, turn to you Inner Child and talk to Him.
You will see He can comfort you like nothing else!

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#197746 - 01/03/08 10:32 AM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: alexey]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Hi Alexey,

I more or less consider myself gay, have lots of contact with the "gay community" and that's OK with me. Just so you know... my bias I suppose.

The first thing I think about this question is, "Why do you want to know?" because, a lot of people assume things about someone who says "I'm gay." that aren't true or aren't necessarily true. Like, I'm in a 16 year (monogamous --I wouldn't normally say that, but would people assume that?) relationship. We are married in every sense but legally. It's not, like, really rare. I don't sing show tunes all the time either.

But if people are open to all the many possibilities of "being gay", I also feel while there probably are some genetic and very early childhood factors, I think it's also complicated and often not clear cut. Meaning, I think many people as young people and adults have attractions and sexual feelings toward both sexes and learn to deal with and possibly express that somehow. Lots of options there. Like, I really suspect that lots of "straight" guys sometimes have or had sexual feelings with other guys. That doesn't for a second mean they did or should act on that. That's a whole 'nother thing completely. But I wish they'd not be so defensive about that, and I wish gay people wouldn't be so dang quick to say, "Uh oh! You might like it! You might be gay! You should try it!" because, that's just as unhelpful as saying homosexuality is wrong, or sick and don't do that.

If I was a parent, I'd tell and show my children and young adults about the real variety of people called "gay" and "straight" or other things. I'd tell them to explore how they feel with people of both sexes, try to accept everything they feel and make healthy choices. You don't have to act on all your feelings but it does no good to deny them. Don't let some label ever get in the way of that. I wish we all rarely used these labels, actually. I don't understand the point.

Now why did you bring up sexual abuse? "..what we know about SA not leading to homosexuality."? Because sexual abuse in a huge complicating factor, right? Myself, after 30 years I still have confusion about my sexuality and I think perhaps abused kids hopefully can just find something that works for them, and living with those effects. That's the whole rest of the forum here...

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

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#197751 - 01/03/08 10:57 AM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: LandOfShadow]
alexey Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 1674
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Thanks,

I see. I know it is difficult. The point I wanted to ask WHY is that my coworker said that a parent absense from the family is likely to make a child gay. I don't agree completely BECAUSE I don't know. Probably many guys here did not have the full family or their family members were abusive.. But that is a different story. I asked about a situation exluding abuse factor, just does one parent in the family is a sure thing the child will be gay?

I have sexual confusion as well. I did have sexual feelings toward males and all of that, but that is also another question. I brought up the abuse problem because I wanted to tell I don't ask about abuse consequences for sexual orientation.

Alexey

_________________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
E[:]|||||[:]3
(")_(")
--------
When you feel all alone and unhappy, turn to you Inner Child and talk to Him.
You will see He can comfort you like nothing else!

Top
#197784 - 01/03/08 05:43 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: alexey]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Hi Alexey,

I understand better what your asking, but :

Originally Posted By: alexey
...just does one parent in the family is a sure thing the child will be gay?


If you think about this, this couldn't be true. If it was that simple, it would be easy to research as a psychologist. Just take 100 single parent environments and 100 two parent environments and compare offspring. If there was a strong simple effect, there'd be a strong correllation in the number of gay offspring. I can't site the research, but I've never heard of this. Somebody would have noticed.

I think (my opinion) it's so complicated that a parent can't intentionally have a significant effect.

I believe identical twins are much more likely to both be gay or not. I'd have to look that up to be sure. Same genetics there. I thought I'd heard the more older brothers a male child has, the more likely he is be gay. But still I don't think it's a strong correllation. Maybe someone else knows the current psychological opinion.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

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#197787 - 01/03/08 05:57 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: LandOfShadow]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
I was wondering... I hope I'm not discouraging other from responding. So, like I said, I admit I'm biased on this question and it's OK not to agree with me... It's a international forum in a big world after all...

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

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#197789 - 01/03/08 06:34 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: LandOfShadow]
Stephen_5 Offline
BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/00
Posts: 667
Loc: Northern California Foothills
I can only speak for myself. I knew when I was around 8 years old that I was different, I didn't know what to call it. Sexual orientation was never discussed back then, at least not in my family.

I had both parents all of my life. My family put the 'fun' in dysfunctional. There was no overt abuse or neglect, my parents just weren't very approachable. I got married, had children, all of the stuff that I was expected to do as the only boy in the family. But I always knew that I was homosexual. But for years I just buried it. After I started dealing with the CSA issues I learned and understood why I had 'acted out'. A year or so after my wife died after 34 years of marriage, I found a man that I love and I've been with him ever since. I feel very fortunate to have found two 'loves of my life'.

I don't know why I'm gay. I just am. I hope some day that it won't make a difference to anyone else what another persons sexual orientation is, that every one will be accepted for who they are.

Take good care of yourself,

Steve

_________________________
I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center.
Kurt Vonnegut (1922-2007)

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#197811 - 01/03/08 11:36 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: Stephen_5]
apollo Offline
New Here

Registered: 07/23/07
Posts: 7
Loc: Georgia
Crazy, I was just wondering this same question today and trying to find answers in journals and so on.

The reason I was asking this question, is that my T told me this week that the research shows that molestation does not cause homosexuality. I have ALWAYS assumed that my SSA was due to the fact that I was sexually abused as a child.

I found some research that shows that nearly 50% of male homosexuals were sexually abused as children. This doesn't surprise me but I'm curious to find out what my T will think about it. If my SSA was not caused by sexual abuse, the implication is that I would be gay even if it hadn't happened which I find hard to believe but I must at least consider.


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#197812 - 01/03/08 11:43 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: apollo]
Jarrad Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 1071
Loc: arizona
i have a friend who is a twin. (both are guys.) he is gay. his brother is straight. they both were raised the same way. its genetic. they knew he was gay as young as 5. they didnt do anything differenly. parents can't influence the orientation of a kid.


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#197828 - 01/04/08 04:43 AM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: Jarrad]
alexey Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 1674
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Thanks for your replies. It is much clear to me what you think about causes of being gay.

Thanks again.

It is indeed seemes to be an unknown, probably genetic.

Take care,
Alexey

_________________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
E[:]|||||[:]3
(")_(")
--------
When you feel all alone and unhappy, turn to you Inner Child and talk to Him.
You will see He can comfort you like nothing else!

Top
#197853 - 01/04/08 09:52 AM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: apollo]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Originally Posted By: apollo
my SSA


What's SSA? Besides the Social Security Administration??? \:\)

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

Top
#197858 - 01/04/08 10:20 AM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: LandOfShadow]
cbfull Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Ohio
I think he means Same Sex Attraction?

_________________________
Craig

Guilt and shame have never done any of us any good at all.

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#197877 - 01/04/08 12:37 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: cbfull]
Eric5 Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 27
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
I read a book about this once. It was called 'Coming Out Straight' and was written by an ex-homosexual man. The theme of the book was healing. It's position is that men who grow up without a father figure are more likely to be homosexual due to the need to identify with their gender. The yearning for a father figure becomes a sexual need and some homosexuals feel satisfied when they have sex with other men. Others fall apart, feel guilty.

The book was easy to read and well written. I dont agree with everything it says but I do see how people troubled with their orientation can get relief - By allowing themselves to realize that their lack of a nurturing father was not their fault and they do not have to call themselves gay for needing what every man a needs.

Links:
http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Out-Straight-Understanding-Homosexuality/dp/1886939470

http://www.arr-the-kraken.com/straight/


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#198034 - 01/05/08 11:31 AM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: Eric5]
alexey Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 1674
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Thanks Eric,

This makes sense to me. Still Irealize that is one valid and possible explanation.

Alexey

_________________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
E[:]|||||[:]3
(")_(")
--------
When you feel all alone and unhappy, turn to you Inner Child and talk to Him.
You will see He can comfort you like nothing else!

Top
#198074 - 01/05/08 03:27 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: alexey]
VictoryisRs Offline
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Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 36
Loc: Seattle, WA
I don't completely buy into the 'absent father' theory. IF we took a survey of every man who claimed to have a rotten/distant relationship w/ his father, I would guess it would be a lot of guys. If only 10% of the population is gay,then these figures would not bear out. Same w/ sexual abuse. If 20% of the population has been a victim of CSA, then we should expect 20% occurence of homosexuality across the spectrum. I have 3 friends who are gay and all of them have a gay brother. None were sexually abused. The more IMPORTANT question I think is to ask-how do you live your life and contribute to society? There is no single answer to empirically state without doubt, what causes homosexuality. The religious right would have us think otherwise. I know they mean well and try to view this compassionately, but they do not have the right to be the morality police and define what's right for everyone.


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#198097 - 01/05/08 05:56 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: alexey]
lostcowboy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 797
Loc: North Texas
Hi Alexey, its my understanding that the overbearing mother/distant father, psychological theory had pretty much been disproved.

While this book is getting old, it is a good start on the subject. The Sexual Brain by Simon LeVay Try and get it at your library.
In general, they are now leaning towards, a gay gene, or several genes that when combined causes a gay person. The other theory is that something goes wrong inside the mothers Womb while she is pregnant. Ether way there would be no choose for the person who is gay.

Edit, here is a good article about it. What Makes People Gay? By Neil Swidey | August 14, 2005

Take care,
Clifford



Edited by lostcowboy (01/05/08 07:25 PM)
_________________________
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

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#198098 - 01/05/08 06:04 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: lostcowboy]
evanesence Offline
Guest

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 119
something goes wrong?wow sounds kinda homophobic to me ! not your response cowboy ,just the theroy.


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#198106 - 01/05/08 07:46 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: evanesence]
lostcowboy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 797
Loc: North Texas
Hi Evanesence, if it sounds kinda homophobic, that must be my homophobic leaking through. In real life I stay away from gay men, if possible. Even though I was attracted to and had a affair with a gay man. He has been the only man I was attracted to so far, took me totally by surprise, that my fear of him could turn into attraction. Even with all that, I still fear and stay away from gay men.
I edited the post above, added a link to a article, please read.

Take care,
Clifford

_________________________
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

Top
#198118 - 01/05/08 08:46 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: lostcowboy]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11023
Loc: Denver, CO
I have a question from this thread that I hope will not raise a bunch of ire:

Jarrad said the following, and I've heard other examples stated in the past by others....

"they knew he was gay as young as 5"

I seriously doubt this boy was sexually attracted to other boys at 5, since sex/puberty is nowhere in site at 5 years old. How did they "know" he was gay? What does this mean?



Edited by FormerTexan (01/05/08 08:54 PM)
_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#198127 - 01/05/08 10:37 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: FormerTexan]
evanesence Offline
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Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 119
i'm not gay either ,it's just hard to believe anyone would try to say it was something wrong with the mothers body ,that made somebody gay ,what if your bisexual ?mother must have dropped you on your head ?it's kinda funny really ,but if i was gay it would piss me off.


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#198133 - 01/05/08 11:47 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: evanesence]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
I guess it depends if you are going to persecute an entire large group of people for something that happens "naturally", i.e. "goes wrong". Lot's of things "go wrong" with people. Do we persecute people with poor vision, cleft palate, hemophilia, etc.??

What pisses me off is the political fear mongering (they want your children!!), the extreme prejudices and fears without factual basis, and ignorance (fears of catching AIDS by touching, etc). That's what has gone wrong. Same sex attraction is just a natural phenomena, for whatever cause.

Looking for causes in our culture is usually prejudice in disguise.

As for "they knew he was gay as young as 5", people seem to mean, looking back, they and/or others recognized something different in themselves, often something about accepting gender roles. The boy who loves to dress up in costumes, somewhat feminine or sissy, likes dolls. Or the girl who liked playing with trucks in the sandbox, tomboys. Didn't work for me. Nothing's simple here.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

Top
#198154 - 01/06/08 02:03 AM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: LandOfShadow]
apollo Offline
New Here

Registered: 07/23/07
Posts: 7
Loc: Georgia
same sex attraction


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#198243 - 01/06/08 02:19 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: evanesence]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Originally Posted By: evanesence
it's just hard to believe anyone would try to say it was something wrong with the mothers body ,that made somebody gay ,what if your bisexual ?mother must have dropped you on your head ?it's kinda funny really ,but if i was gay it would piss me off.


Thank you Evan. The assertion that there is something wrong with me because I am gay is exceedingly offensive to me.

I don't look for reasons for being gay out of prejudice or justification or anything like that. Usually, the things I point to as being 'causes' of homosexuality are to rebuke those people who say being gay is bad with no basis in fact. "The bible says..." Well, modern science and common sense say otherwise.

However, that being said, there is no single cause as to why an individual would consider themselves gay. All of the factors mentioned are causal for some people, but everyone is different. My father was not absent or distant, my mother was not abusive or overprotective, I am not effiminate, and I'm not just trying to be anti-establishment. Gay male sex is just what turns me on, that's all there is to it.

Andy, I don't know if I knew I was gay when I was 5, but I did know before puberty that I liked looking at boys more than girls, liked playing with boys more than girls. When my abuse started and I was introduced to 'the joys of sex' I explored the girls as well as the boys, and it was clear to me which I preferred. That was when I was 8 or 9.

I think our sexual identity develops very early, even if subconsciously and even if we never act on it until we are older. Transgender people know that something is different about themselves at a very early age. I don't think I remember anything about when I was 5, but some of my earliest sexual memories point to the fact that I was already sexually oriented towards the same sex. Dare I say I was born that way? I can't prove that, but I think it is likely.

Just my two cents' worth.

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#198382 - 01/07/08 09:19 AM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: Lazarus]
cbfull Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Lazarus
Thank you Evan. The assertion that there is something wrong with me because I am gay is exceedingly offensive to me.

Looks like I am following you around today Laz! I feel the same. How can I not? We have spent most of our lives thinking that there is something wrong with us because we are so strongly attracted to our own gender. The reason we "come out" is to shed that stigma from our character. There never was and there never will be anything wrong with basic same-sex attraction.

I look for reasons that people are gay because I feel confident that when the reason is finally understood, we are all going to realize just how natural and healthy it actually is, and not that it is some sort of "bug" or "error".

I reject a great deal of modern religious beliefs because their meanings have been perverted by modern interpretation. The idea that the bible specifically condemns homosexuality is just ludricrous, and the only proof I need is the fact that the word "homosexual" did not even exist until very recently, not even in Hebrew. So how did that word end up in the bible if it never existed? That is a very good question! My guess is, someone's perverted agenda, but that's just my own rant.

_________________________
Craig

Guilt and shame have never done any of us any good at all.

Top
#198383 - 01/07/08 09:26 AM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: cbfull]
Jarrad Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 1071
Loc: arizona
"Jarrad said the following, and I've heard other examples stated in the past by others....

"they knew he was gay as young as 5"

I seriously doubt this boy was sexually attracted to other boys at 5, since sex/puberty is nowhere in site at 5 years old. How did they "know" he was gay? What does this mean? "


i didnt know it was called "gay" until middle school, but i knew i was different. i identified more with girls. i was not into the "normal" boy things. i wasn't worried about it. it just was how i was. like i started ballet when i was 4. not that ballet makes you gay, but its just a series of things that add up to one big homo. when i was in kindergarten i got a note taken home to my parents "jarrad would not sit on the grass today during story time. he says he is allerigic to grass. this is not noted on his allergy form. if there is an error please correct im immediately." im not allergic to grass. i jsut didnt want to sit on the grass because i didnt want to ruin the crease in my pants and i knew grass stains were impossible to get out. so did i know that i liked boys and was "gay" when i was 5? no. did i know i was different hells yes.


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#198387 - 01/07/08 10:11 AM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: Jarrad]
alexey Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 1674
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Guys, there were great points you made. All of you made sense to me. Especially I would like to touch upon the issue of prejudice covered under the questioning the causes of homosexuality..

While my initial question was answered, and thanks to you all. But what do you think about the following? There are courses taught in universities called Human Sexuality. I mean American Universities. In such courses, I believe, many apects of developing sexuality are challenged, including the causes and development of "conventional" sexual orientation, gender gender identity, and sexual attraction versus homosexuality. So no one is gudging. You likewise could question the origins of "straight" sexual orientation. I mean there are identical roots to the development of sexuality, being same sex attraction or another sex attraction. I personally didn't mean to shake your self-respect and show any prejudice. I just wanted to pick up a broad topic: What you think could lead, or what is the origin, of your sexual orientation. The same question applies, obvioulsy, to me as well, as I see in myself both sexual attraction to male and female humans. ) Just curious, nothing more.

Alexey

_________________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
E[:]|||||[:]3
(")_(")
--------
When you feel all alone and unhappy, turn to you Inner Child and talk to Him.
You will see He can comfort you like nothing else!

Top
#198401 - 01/07/08 11:31 AM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: alexey]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Alexey, I think the discussion is so politicized, so polarized you almost can't ask the question. People silently, unknowingly assume so much is behind it. And correctly mostly. So you indirectly debate prejudice instead.

I'll harp on my point again. If you're offended by "something went wrong and you're gay", aren't you also silently buying into the assumed hateful agenda that usually comes with that? Alternatively,

Quote:
I feel confident that when the reason is finally understood, we are all going to realize just how natural and healthy it actually is, and not that it is some sort of "bug" or "error".


the agenda here is total equality, acceptance and lack of stigma. (my choice even if "something went wrong" in some sense of the word, right?

So what we are really discussing is the extreme agendas that are justified and empowered by the "facts", and not the facts about causes of homosexuality at all. People don't seem to realize this. Other debated questions are not so encumbered.


_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

Top
#198419 - 01/07/08 03:03 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: LandOfShadow]
lostcowboy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 797
Loc: North Texas
Hi guys, not sure why everyone is hitting on the word "wrong"! I suspect if I had said that things went differently inside the mothers Womb while she is pregnant. You would find "different objectable.
Basically what the theory says is baby's develop both physically and mentally due to the hormones that the baby's body puts out. But sometimes things don't work out the way they are expected to. If you want to read the book yourself it is "Love & Love Sickness, The Science of Sex, Gender Difference, and Pair-Bonding by John Money. The book does not use the word wrong, instead he uses big long words that I barely understand, and he goes on for about ten pages. I was not about to try typing all that, so blame me for using the word "wrong".What I am trying to say is that you are born that way, which is what Lazarus said. I also agree with Lazarus about the bible, and if you want to read about it. http://www.truthsetsfree.net/bible.htm A small note about the bible study this man did, he says there is not anything in the bible against long-term gay relationships. However another book( sorry I can not find the book at this time) referees 1 Samuel chapter 18, as a gay relationship that was ordained by god. This is the relationship between David and Jonathan the kings son.
Edit, just found this on that web site, http://www.truthsetsfree.net/faq8.htm So he does know about David and Jonathan.



Take care,
Clifford



Edited by lostcowboy (01/07/08 03:10 PM)
_________________________
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

Top
#198473 - 01/07/08 07:20 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: lostcowboy]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
I'm glad we finally got an audience here... Thanks to everybody who is involved.

LandofShadow, I appreciate your tone, but I'm not quite sure what you aaid.

"If you're offended by "something went wrong and you're gay", aren't you also silently buying into the assumed hateful agenda that usually comes with that?"

No, I don't think so. There's nothing wrong with me (at least not because I am gay) and I don't buy into any hateful agenda related to being gay or anything else. I must have misunderstood you here, can you clarify?

You also state that we, as homosexuals, seek total equality and the removal of the stigma attached with being gay. I'll agree with the later, but the former does not apply. I understand that society has a responsibility for promoting and protecting the family and if by being equal I take anything away from that, I don't want equality. So as a single gay man, or a gay couple without children, I can understand how the framework of society might not be set up to specifically benefit me. But it shouldn't penalize me either. In my case, I DO have children in my custody, and we are a 'family' in every sense of the word. But since my partner is the same sex that I am, we are severely penalized... and for what? Because the bible says it's wrong? HOGWASH!!!

I know you didn't say that, and I'm ranting. It's not equality that gays are seeking, it's respect and acceptance. Just because I'm different from you doesn't mean that I'm 'wrong' or 'damaged goods' or 'perverse.' It only means that I have found happiness with someone of my own sex rather than the opposite sex. That's it, period. That's really the only fundamental difference between gays and straights.

Sure, some gays are extravagant and anti-establishment. But after generations of repression, who wouldn't be? Many straight people are the same way, for different reasons...

LOS, I'm not ranting at you, I'm ranting TO you. You seem to ahve a point, but I'm afraid I missed it. This was not all directed at you, but at a more general audience. Let me explain;

Alexey, to get back to your original topic, I think that everybody is sexual in nature, and sex is VERY important in all of out lives. It's no surprise that many people obsess about the subject. But if the truth be known, I believe that most people are neither completely straight nor completely gay; everybody exists somewhere inbetween. If you were raised in a society where homosexuality was berated and slandered, your tendancy would be averse to being gay, even if you were. If you were in fact 'born' gay, you might go through your whole life fighting that feeling, just because that's the way you were raised. If, on the other hand, you were raised in a more moderate social environment, being gay might not be a bid deal, and you would be able to choose your sexual partners on the basis of attraction, not stereotype. You might flip back and forth a couple of times until you found what most interested you, without remorse or regret. In the extreme, you might find people who have been raised in a culture where gay was the only way, and straight people were berated, and even if you were attracted to the opposite sex, you might choose to have a gay relationship because that is what was expected of you.

So you see, it goes from one end of the spectrum to the other. I was is a straight relationship for 20 years, and while there were many positives (my kids, primarily) I was never sexually fulfilled until I married another man. Other people feel otherwise, and that's fine. I think there is room in this society for a wide variety of relationships without detracting from each other.

That being said, I have to ask, "What's the big deal?" If you're straight and have a family, good for you. I am gay and I have a family, why am I bad, wrong, or disruptive to family morality? If someone tells me that gay marriage will disrupt the conventional concept of marriage, I have to say that that person must believe that most men in heterosexual marriages would opt for a gay marriage if they had the chance. How rediculous is that? Yet it is the only way gay marriage could be a threat to straight marriage.

So I guess it comes back to the question, "what's the big deal?" Seriously, I'd like somebody to answer that simple question, "What Is The Big Deal???"

And Cliff, I'm sure I'll have more to say after I read the article in your link, but that's for later.

Respectfully submitted,

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#198480 - 01/07/08 08:10 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: Lazarus]
cbfull Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Ohio
Laz, I must say that was very well put. I followed every word.

_________________________
Craig

Guilt and shame have never done any of us any good at all.

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#198486 - 01/07/08 08:30 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: cbfull]
Stephen_5 Offline
BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/00
Posts: 667
Loc: Northern California Foothills
Laz,

This is a very interesting thread. I thoroughly agree: "What's the big deal?" As the saying goes "If you're against gay marriage, don't marry one!" But for me, I'm looking forward to the day that I can have all the rights, privileges and responsibilities that I had when I was married to a woman with the man that I love now. There is no way that my marriage to my partner would be a threat to anyone else, except that our tax rate might be lower filing a joint return.

Take care,

Steve

_________________________
I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center.
Kurt Vonnegut (1922-2007)

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#198500 - 01/07/08 09:00 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: Stephen_5]
evanesence Offline
Guest

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 119
i didn't mean to start anything with my comment .


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#198576 - 01/08/08 05:31 AM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: LandOfShadow]
Nate Offline
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Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 93
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
i don't buy the whole it's the family's fault bit. i think its something we've yet to uncover. perhaps god just got a bit more creative w/ some of us.

_________________________
"Love the moment. Flowers grow out of dark moments. Therefore, each moment is vital. It affects the whole. Life is a succession of such moments and to live each, is to succeed."

- Corita Kent

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#198604 - 01/08/08 10:39 AM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: Nate]
Scoutvictim Offline
Guest

Registered: 06/04/07
Posts: 434
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
Nate,

*Snap*

Bravo!!!! ... BRAVO!!!!

Luv ya,
Carl

P.S. When are you coming back to MO?



_________________________
Shawn and Ben will always be in my heart....

Happiness is like peeing your pants; Everyone can see it, but only YOU feel the warmth.

Peebles, Ohio WOR alumni, Oct. 2007

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#198628 - 01/08/08 01:30 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: Scoutvictim]
SEVEN ARROWS Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 1298
if its because of something gone '' wrong'' with the mothers body, or is just plain ''wrong''.

Were does that leave people like me. I have tried to hide my sexuality from the world for most of my life. I would have had to leave the army if it came out. People i knew were anti anything different.

So if as some people say being gay is ''wrong'', then im double cursed. A few people on this site helped me get to the point in my life, were i can say to others that im bisexual.
With the help of this site i told my wife im bisexual and her reaction was i thought you were. A bit of the pressure has left our marriage and i can be who i am and still have the love of my wife.

When i look at people i dont care if you are gay, straight, bi, trans or anything else. We are all humans and thats all that matters.

So if i like vanilla ice cream with sprinkles and you hate ice cream. Am i ''wrong''.

Im not trying to belittle the post, but when i meet someone, all i think is.

Can i trust this person
Do i like this person
Ect.

At no point does the sexuality of this person come into it.


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#198756 - 01/09/08 08:55 AM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: SEVEN ARROWS]
Nate Offline
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Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 93
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
hehe - well i'll be in japan at least till august 09...maybe longer and well not sure if i wanna live in MO again - hehe. we'll see!

_________________________
"Love the moment. Flowers grow out of dark moments. Therefore, each moment is vital. It affects the whole. Life is a succession of such moments and to live each, is to succeed."

- Corita Kent

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#198859 - 01/09/08 11:00 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: Nate]
Grunty1967b Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 823
Loc: Australia
If I were to attach a label to myself I would say I’m straight not that my sexual preference, attractions or habits are the point to this very interesting thread.

I loved seeing the ‘example’ of duplicity in Jarrad’s post. There are 2 twin boys, raised in a stable family home where one chose male sexual preferences and another chose a female sexual preferences. It kind of blows out the dysfunctional/missing father figure ‘reason’. It also dispels to some extent I think the DNA thing (based on my limited medical knowledge that twins share more common DNA than non twins?). Don’t shoot me down on this – I could be totally wrong, but I think if you were to examine two ‘test subjects’ to ‘compare’ then twins would seem to be ideal.

Apart from that I think it may be more pre-disposition. Maybe that’s another way of saying DNA? I think of some who are predisposed to becoming alcoholics. Some who are could cite “it runs in the family” while others could not say that. I’ve seen similar arguments to support gay/non-gay preferences.

Cultural influences? I don’t think so either. Cultures where homosexuality is banned and can result in MAJOR persecution, torture and (according to what I’ve heard) – even death. I wouldn’t think men in those cultures would make their choices or preferences “just because”.

Religious constraints or liberalisms? Same as above I think. I don’t see how either would ultimately have any effect on the way somebody ends up living their life.

Speaking of that taboo – religion, as one who has a strong religious belief system, a person’s choice about their way of living life and their sexual preferences, favourite colour or anything else should not have that person looked down on or ostracised.

If a persons religious beliefs lead them to not personally believe that person X is living according to the way they themselves (person Y) should live that’s simply their belief. Religion is meant to accept the person unconditionally; perhaps not agree with what that person does in their life (according to their belief) but then who of us would agree with what car you should drive or which way you should style your hair? Each to their own.

Bottom line, the way I see it – I have no idea what leads people to choose their sexual preference. It seems by this thread nobody else does either.



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#198938 - 01/10/08 05:11 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: alexey]
Tom(stuocms) Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Hudson Valley - NY
If I may, I would like to add my 2 sense to this.

Looking deep inside myself, I do NOT think it is ANYTHING that environmentally affected me to become homosexual. Oh yes, there was MUCH I lived through. But, deep down inside myself, as young as 4,5,6 I can remember the deep seated feelings, of lusting for other BOYS, of hating to be near girls, and of thinking way back then they(girls) hated me. Never in my whole life have I ever, EVER felt for any female, the DEEP STRONG lust I have always felt for males! AT 5,6,7,8,9 I was in LOVE with BOYS in Commercials, in LOVE with BOYS on TV Shows, and totally infatuated and in LOVE with Classmates - BOY CLASSMATES.. Their cloths, their skin, legs face, hair..Everything. Always, ALWAYS dreaming, about touching, about exploring and among other things. Always Looking, ok STARING at their BODIES .. always with LUST.

As I grew, IT grew inside me! Of course it didn't help when i did stupid shit, like, You know I did like the easy stuff, such as cut-outs and coloring. But I also loved playing with guns, cops and robbers, cowboys and indians.. all those MALES roles with other BOYS. Being near another boy... even just close enough to feel the heat off his body, feel his warmth, his aura, was enough to drive me crazy. Looking at him, from his head to his feet.. and I mean feet, everything about him was explosive inside me. I would CARRY a friend home on my shoulders, at 9 just to have his body, and well u know, his genital part, on my neck.. holding him.. and feeling him.. MANY Times I'd have a hole in my pants pocket just to be able to hold myself cuz i was so aroused, my friends they never knew... I remember my step father saying, i think i was 7 or 8, saying when he thought i wasn't listening, saying to my brother how I was a 'fairy'! I hated it, what he said... but I had those lusts inside me. I was not feminine at all.. like some kids were ... I was a very straight normal acting kid. Skinny and Blind as bat .. which made me a sports idiot. But aside from that, I was kinda normal. In Scouts 'first aid' was always great .. being able to touch other boys MY AGE and not get in trouble. My only fear was them seeing my excitement.... So... look, I knew what I was, way way way before they started doing all their stupid stuff to me.. at 9, him and his Brother... to me it seems very clear as to which came first the chicken or the egg.. BOTH I was the Chicken and the egg was inside me.. I was a homosexual... way deep inside it was and IS what i am and they knew it.. they just made sure it was so embedded.. (pun intended) that I totally knew it too... The warm heartfelt feeling I got just giving out hints that I was, made my life easier to deal with. I can't tell you how much warmth i felt, telling someone i was a HOMOSEXUAL. Well, that is when i had the courage to, which came later in College. High school kids they found out when they pulled me into the woods, formed a circle, and i was the center of attraction. I didn't resist too much.. I wanted it.. and I WANTED IT BAD!

So to me my abuse .. it may have contributed to my 'Sexual ADDICTION' which no one seems to be able to deal with... but it didn't make me a homosexual. I was that way ...and when i hear people tell me that they became gay at 20, 40, 60... IN my mind, I say BS... no offense. To ME being a homosexual, isn't something that just overtakes you one day. It is something so deep, so strong.. it is YOU! The TOTAL essense of YOU. At least it is for me. Oh yeah there are times I wish I wasn't. BUT I am...and i do not believe anything can ever change it... I hope this makes sense and is on topic.
Tom




Edited by Tom(stuocms) (01/10/08 05:40 PM)

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#198940 - 01/10/08 05:33 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: Tom(stuocms)]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Tom,

Sometimes people my choose to adppt a gay lifestyle at 20, 30 or 40 etc. is that society may have forced them into trying to be something they are not. I knew I was gay at a very young age, but I didn't admit it to myself until I was almost 30 and to other people at age 40. So I didn't become gay, I just chose to accept it at that time and follow my feelings instead of what I thought I was supposed to do. Some people might think that I 'turned gay' at that age, but that's not quite correct.

Lazarus

P.S. Tom, please don't post in red type anymore. It's terribly difficult to read for some of us. I had to highlight your text in order to be able to see it. Thanks!

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#198943 - 01/10/08 05:52 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: Lazarus]
Tom(stuocms) Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Hudson Valley - NY
Hi Lazarus

First, My apologies for the red font.. I changed it back to black.

Second, I agree with your ascertion that in many instances society may have forced them into trying to be something they are not(being str8). I was just expressing my feelings, just as u have, that even though they chose to do that, JUST AS I HAD, deep down they knew at an early age the TRUTH!

MY contention is with those that say they were straight and just became gay. I do not believe that is totally possible... somewhere inside there had to be homosexual feelngs.. but again that is MY feeling... and who am i to know. I just know how it is with me.

Thanks for taking the time to response btw.

Tom


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#199149 - 01/12/08 03:33 AM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: alexey]
lostcowboy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 797
Loc: North Texas
Hi guys, just wanted to add some more info. I found Simon LeVay’s home page, and he has a brief article about the theory's. The Biology of Sexual Orientation

I also found a article about how some chemicals can effect the fetus. one of the chemicals is DDT, which if my thinking is correct used to be used to kill roaches. My mom was a waitress, and could of been exposed to it. When does it happen? Note this is taken from a transgender view point.
You may find the rest of the web site to be of interest. The Gender Tree

And last but not least is http://www.love-shy.com/ Which talks about guys that are straight, but are super shy which seems to fit me to a tee. Again we are talking about the male fetus in the womb.

Take care,
Clifford

_________________________
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

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#199558 - 01/15/08 12:44 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: lostcowboy]
alexey Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 1674
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Thanks Clifford. The first article is a great information source, and I read some part of it.

Alexey

_________________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
E[:]|||||[:]3
(")_(")
--------
When you feel all alone and unhappy, turn to you Inner Child and talk to Him.
You will see He can comfort you like nothing else!

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#202062 - 01/28/08 03:28 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: alexey]
echo222 Offline
New Here

Registered: 01/28/08
Posts: 1
Hello, my first post here. Thought about sharing my story. It might contain triggers for some.

My mother didnt much care about me when I was small, she was too young and preoccupied with herself to do that. I was a mistake, something she wasnt planning and something that led my father to marry her. I still feel pretty distant from my mother.

My father was also very young when I was born. When I was a kid he was very much into alcohol - still is, verbally abusive and frightening when drunk. He may or may not have beaten me, I dont remember. He was not much of a role model.

I remember when I was 6 or 7, sitting next to him on a sofa, I touched my father's arm, searching for comfort and tenderness. When he noticed the look on my face, he quickly drew his arm away and looked and acted disgusted. I remember the shame I felt like this happened yesterday.

Some time after that, I seeked the same comfort and tenderness from a boy next door, much older than me at the time, already in puberty. He could have been the role model and source of security and comfort for me my father was not. Instead, he took me to the basement and sexually abused me.

I started to make sexual advances to my friends, other kids of the same age as me. And in early adulthood and as an adult, Im sorry to say this, but there has not been any male friend, straight or gay and most of them are straight, that I havent made a pass on, sometimes straining the friendships.

Today I identify as a gay male, and my friends and family are very supportive and accepting, with the exception of my mother who is more distant. I tend to seek very masculine, mistreating, emotionally distant and potentially violent or alcohol-abusive men. Also, I seem to prefer the type of sex acts I was abused with.

I'm pretty confused. On the other hand, I'm comfortable with my gay identity. I've got good female friends, but I don't feel aroused at their or other women's presence.

On the other hand, I think and feel that the circumstances and the sexual abuse trauma of my childhood did substantially contribute to my gay orientation. I do not recall being sexual prior the abuse; after that all was sexualized.

But if I start to question my gayness (as a replay of early traumas: seeking fatherly love and repeating the CSA pattern) while not being straight either, where does that leave me? Alone, I guess. Any help or thoughts or personal experience here would be most welcome.

I hope I did not offend anyone with the text above, that is not and was not my intention. I think we all have our own stories, our own histories and personalities, and the above is just my story. I'm not trying to generalize from my story, I'm not trying to make any assertions about 'causes' of gay orientation; this is just my story and what I think I understand of myself. Others' stories are different and their own.


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#202860 - 01/31/08 04:43 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: Lazarus]
alexey Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 1674
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Quote:
Alexey, to get back to your original topic, I think that everybody is sexual in nature, and sex is VERY important in all of out lives. It's no surprise that many people obsess about the subject. But if the truth be known, I believe that most people are neither completely straight nor completely gay; everybody exists somewhere inbetween. If you were raised in a society where homosexuality was berated and slandered, your tendancy would be averse to being gay, even if you were. If you were in fact 'born' gay, you might go through your whole life fighting that feeling, just because that's the way you were raised. If, on the other hand, you were raised in a more moderate social environment, being gay might not be a bid deal, and you would be able to choose your sexual partners on the basis of attraction, not stereotype. You might flip back and forth a couple of times until you found what most interested you, without remorse or regret. In the extreme, you might find people who have been raised in a culture where gay was the only way, and straight people were berated, and even if you were attracted to the opposite sex, you might choose to have a gay relationship because that is what was expected of you.


Thanks Lazarus. You words make sense to me. I live in a city where gay parade have been planned twice and rejected by the city authorities because they feared violence... The third time project may be real... Much homophobia in Russia.

Alexey

_________________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
E[:]|||||[:]3
(")_(")
--------
When you feel all alone and unhappy, turn to you Inner Child and talk to Him.
You will see He can comfort you like nothing else!

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