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#198154 - 01/06/08 02:03 AM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: LandOfShadow]
apollo Offline
New Here

Registered: 07/23/07
Posts: 7
Loc: Georgia
same sex attraction


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#198243 - 01/06/08 02:19 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: evanesence]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Originally Posted By: evanesence
it's just hard to believe anyone would try to say it was something wrong with the mothers body ,that made somebody gay ,what if your bisexual ?mother must have dropped you on your head ?it's kinda funny really ,but if i was gay it would piss me off.


Thank you Evan. The assertion that there is something wrong with me because I am gay is exceedingly offensive to me.

I don't look for reasons for being gay out of prejudice or justification or anything like that. Usually, the things I point to as being 'causes' of homosexuality are to rebuke those people who say being gay is bad with no basis in fact. "The bible says..." Well, modern science and common sense say otherwise.

However, that being said, there is no single cause as to why an individual would consider themselves gay. All of the factors mentioned are causal for some people, but everyone is different. My father was not absent or distant, my mother was not abusive or overprotective, I am not effiminate, and I'm not just trying to be anti-establishment. Gay male sex is just what turns me on, that's all there is to it.

Andy, I don't know if I knew I was gay when I was 5, but I did know before puberty that I liked looking at boys more than girls, liked playing with boys more than girls. When my abuse started and I was introduced to 'the joys of sex' I explored the girls as well as the boys, and it was clear to me which I preferred. That was when I was 8 or 9.

I think our sexual identity develops very early, even if subconsciously and even if we never act on it until we are older. Transgender people know that something is different about themselves at a very early age. I don't think I remember anything about when I was 5, but some of my earliest sexual memories point to the fact that I was already sexually oriented towards the same sex. Dare I say I was born that way? I can't prove that, but I think it is likely.

Just my two cents' worth.

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#198382 - 01/07/08 09:19 AM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: Lazarus]
cbfull Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Lazarus
Thank you Evan. The assertion that there is something wrong with me because I am gay is exceedingly offensive to me.

Looks like I am following you around today Laz! I feel the same. How can I not? We have spent most of our lives thinking that there is something wrong with us because we are so strongly attracted to our own gender. The reason we "come out" is to shed that stigma from our character. There never was and there never will be anything wrong with basic same-sex attraction.

I look for reasons that people are gay because I feel confident that when the reason is finally understood, we are all going to realize just how natural and healthy it actually is, and not that it is some sort of "bug" or "error".

I reject a great deal of modern religious beliefs because their meanings have been perverted by modern interpretation. The idea that the bible specifically condemns homosexuality is just ludricrous, and the only proof I need is the fact that the word "homosexual" did not even exist until very recently, not even in Hebrew. So how did that word end up in the bible if it never existed? That is a very good question! My guess is, someone's perverted agenda, but that's just my own rant.

_________________________
Craig

Guilt and shame have never done any of us any good at all.

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#198383 - 01/07/08 09:26 AM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: cbfull]
Jarrad Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 1071
Loc: arizona
"Jarrad said the following, and I've heard other examples stated in the past by others....

"they knew he was gay as young as 5"

I seriously doubt this boy was sexually attracted to other boys at 5, since sex/puberty is nowhere in site at 5 years old. How did they "know" he was gay? What does this mean? "


i didnt know it was called "gay" until middle school, but i knew i was different. i identified more with girls. i was not into the "normal" boy things. i wasn't worried about it. it just was how i was. like i started ballet when i was 4. not that ballet makes you gay, but its just a series of things that add up to one big homo. when i was in kindergarten i got a note taken home to my parents "jarrad would not sit on the grass today during story time. he says he is allerigic to grass. this is not noted on his allergy form. if there is an error please correct im immediately." im not allergic to grass. i jsut didnt want to sit on the grass because i didnt want to ruin the crease in my pants and i knew grass stains were impossible to get out. so did i know that i liked boys and was "gay" when i was 5? no. did i know i was different hells yes.


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#198387 - 01/07/08 10:11 AM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: Jarrad]
alexey Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 1674
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Guys, there were great points you made. All of you made sense to me. Especially I would like to touch upon the issue of prejudice covered under the questioning the causes of homosexuality..

While my initial question was answered, and thanks to you all. But what do you think about the following? There are courses taught in universities called Human Sexuality. I mean American Universities. In such courses, I believe, many apects of developing sexuality are challenged, including the causes and development of "conventional" sexual orientation, gender gender identity, and sexual attraction versus homosexuality. So no one is gudging. You likewise could question the origins of "straight" sexual orientation. I mean there are identical roots to the development of sexuality, being same sex attraction or another sex attraction. I personally didn't mean to shake your self-respect and show any prejudice. I just wanted to pick up a broad topic: What you think could lead, or what is the origin, of your sexual orientation. The same question applies, obvioulsy, to me as well, as I see in myself both sexual attraction to male and female humans. ) Just curious, nothing more.

Alexey

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#198401 - 01/07/08 11:31 AM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: alexey]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Alexey, I think the discussion is so politicized, so polarized you almost can't ask the question. People silently, unknowingly assume so much is behind it. And correctly mostly. So you indirectly debate prejudice instead.

I'll harp on my point again. If you're offended by "something went wrong and you're gay", aren't you also silently buying into the assumed hateful agenda that usually comes with that? Alternatively,

Quote:
I feel confident that when the reason is finally understood, we are all going to realize just how natural and healthy it actually is, and not that it is some sort of "bug" or "error".


the agenda here is total equality, acceptance and lack of stigma. (my choice even if "something went wrong" in some sense of the word, right?

So what we are really discussing is the extreme agendas that are justified and empowered by the "facts", and not the facts about causes of homosexuality at all. People don't seem to realize this. Other debated questions are not so encumbered.


_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

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#198419 - 01/07/08 03:03 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: LandOfShadow]
lostcowboy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 797
Loc: North Texas
Hi guys, not sure why everyone is hitting on the word "wrong"! I suspect if I had said that things went differently inside the mothers Womb while she is pregnant. You would find "different objectable.
Basically what the theory says is baby's develop both physically and mentally due to the hormones that the baby's body puts out. But sometimes things don't work out the way they are expected to. If you want to read the book yourself it is "Love & Love Sickness, The Science of Sex, Gender Difference, and Pair-Bonding by John Money. The book does not use the word wrong, instead he uses big long words that I barely understand, and he goes on for about ten pages. I was not about to try typing all that, so blame me for using the word "wrong".What I am trying to say is that you are born that way, which is what Lazarus said. I also agree with Lazarus about the bible, and if you want to read about it. http://www.truthsetsfree.net/bible.htm A small note about the bible study this man did, he says there is not anything in the bible against long-term gay relationships. However another book( sorry I can not find the book at this time) referees 1 Samuel chapter 18, as a gay relationship that was ordained by god. This is the relationship between David and Jonathan the kings son.
Edit, just found this on that web site, http://www.truthsetsfree.net/faq8.htm So he does know about David and Jonathan.



Take care,
Clifford



Edited by lostcowboy (01/07/08 03:10 PM)
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Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

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#198473 - 01/07/08 07:20 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: lostcowboy]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
I'm glad we finally got an audience here... Thanks to everybody who is involved.

LandofShadow, I appreciate your tone, but I'm not quite sure what you aaid.

"If you're offended by "something went wrong and you're gay", aren't you also silently buying into the assumed hateful agenda that usually comes with that?"

No, I don't think so. There's nothing wrong with me (at least not because I am gay) and I don't buy into any hateful agenda related to being gay or anything else. I must have misunderstood you here, can you clarify?

You also state that we, as homosexuals, seek total equality and the removal of the stigma attached with being gay. I'll agree with the later, but the former does not apply. I understand that society has a responsibility for promoting and protecting the family and if by being equal I take anything away from that, I don't want equality. So as a single gay man, or a gay couple without children, I can understand how the framework of society might not be set up to specifically benefit me. But it shouldn't penalize me either. In my case, I DO have children in my custody, and we are a 'family' in every sense of the word. But since my partner is the same sex that I am, we are severely penalized... and for what? Because the bible says it's wrong? HOGWASH!!!

I know you didn't say that, and I'm ranting. It's not equality that gays are seeking, it's respect and acceptance. Just because I'm different from you doesn't mean that I'm 'wrong' or 'damaged goods' or 'perverse.' It only means that I have found happiness with someone of my own sex rather than the opposite sex. That's it, period. That's really the only fundamental difference between gays and straights.

Sure, some gays are extravagant and anti-establishment. But after generations of repression, who wouldn't be? Many straight people are the same way, for different reasons...

LOS, I'm not ranting at you, I'm ranting TO you. You seem to ahve a point, but I'm afraid I missed it. This was not all directed at you, but at a more general audience. Let me explain;

Alexey, to get back to your original topic, I think that everybody is sexual in nature, and sex is VERY important in all of out lives. It's no surprise that many people obsess about the subject. But if the truth be known, I believe that most people are neither completely straight nor completely gay; everybody exists somewhere inbetween. If you were raised in a society where homosexuality was berated and slandered, your tendancy would be averse to being gay, even if you were. If you were in fact 'born' gay, you might go through your whole life fighting that feeling, just because that's the way you were raised. If, on the other hand, you were raised in a more moderate social environment, being gay might not be a bid deal, and you would be able to choose your sexual partners on the basis of attraction, not stereotype. You might flip back and forth a couple of times until you found what most interested you, without remorse or regret. In the extreme, you might find people who have been raised in a culture where gay was the only way, and straight people were berated, and even if you were attracted to the opposite sex, you might choose to have a gay relationship because that is what was expected of you.

So you see, it goes from one end of the spectrum to the other. I was is a straight relationship for 20 years, and while there were many positives (my kids, primarily) I was never sexually fulfilled until I married another man. Other people feel otherwise, and that's fine. I think there is room in this society for a wide variety of relationships without detracting from each other.

That being said, I have to ask, "What's the big deal?" If you're straight and have a family, good for you. I am gay and I have a family, why am I bad, wrong, or disruptive to family morality? If someone tells me that gay marriage will disrupt the conventional concept of marriage, I have to say that that person must believe that most men in heterosexual marriages would opt for a gay marriage if they had the chance. How rediculous is that? Yet it is the only way gay marriage could be a threat to straight marriage.

So I guess it comes back to the question, "what's the big deal?" Seriously, I'd like somebody to answer that simple question, "What Is The Big Deal???"

And Cliff, I'm sure I'll have more to say after I read the article in your link, but that's for later.

Respectfully submitted,

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#198480 - 01/07/08 08:10 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: Lazarus]
cbfull Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Ohio
Laz, I must say that was very well put. I followed every word.

_________________________
Craig

Guilt and shame have never done any of us any good at all.

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#198486 - 01/07/08 08:30 PM Re: A difficult question to me about homosexuality [Re: cbfull]
Stephen_5 Offline
BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/00
Posts: 667
Loc: Northern California Foothills
Laz,

This is a very interesting thread. I thoroughly agree: "What's the big deal?" As the saying goes "If you're against gay marriage, don't marry one!" But for me, I'm looking forward to the day that I can have all the rights, privileges and responsibilities that I had when I was married to a woman with the man that I love now. There is no way that my marriage to my partner would be a threat to anyone else, except that our tax rate might be lower filing a joint return.

Take care,

Steve

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