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#194238 - 12/07/07 11:28 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: ChargerBoy]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Check out this letter from a Mr. Bruce Lowe. Lowe is a minister once staunchly against homosexuality, but through study of the Bible and other materials -- and through his faith -- came to believe God made gay people too.

It's a pretty long read, but it's a great thing, I think.

http://www.godmademegay.com





Edited by AndyJB2005 (12/07/07 11:29 AM)
_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#195548 - 12/16/07 03:29 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Liam]
cat lover Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/05
Posts: 89
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Liam:

Like others who have posted, I'm gay and Christian. However, unlike some others, my denomination has been historically gay-positive. I grew up in the United Church of Christ (www.ucc.org), whose general synod passed a resolution in 1985 calling on settings of the church to be "Open and Affirming" of gay, lesbian, and bisexual people. (We ordained an African-American in 1792, and a woman in 1854, and a gay man in 1972).

cat lover


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#195619 - 12/17/07 06:30 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: cat lover]
sabata Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1948
Liam--what a orginal beautiful name


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#195998 - 12/20/07 03:40 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: ChargerBoy]
bocaj Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 8
I am a born again christian with a personal relationship with christ. I am sorry for the experiences you men have had witht he body of Christ but the fact is those churches are made up by people, people sin and people hurt other people. The fact is the bible clearly states homosexuality is a sin along with drunkenness, idolatry and all the rest. It is equal to all the rest. Just because you sin does not mean God does not love you. God loves gays just as he loves the drunks, murderers, rapists, and all the rest of us humans, cause we are all sinners. Now for Charger boys comment on why would God make gay people if ther shouldnt be gay people. God made mankind, but he gave us free will. We are all a biproduct of our surroundings, and what we grow up around creates our demeanor,behavior, and even sexual preference, not our genes. Your same comment could be applied to why would God make murderers, rapists, diseases and genocide? The fact is Satan runs this world and PEOPLE DO BAD THINGS. That is why we need Jesus in our lives all the more. I cannot tell you what it is like to be gay and be a christian , but the fact is I dont think it matters. I believe we all have gay tendencies of sorts, and the world today is so black or white that if a man has the slightest thought of his guy friend or something he automatically thinks he is guy. I know that is something that men and women will struggle with til the end of time, but just remember God loves you the way you are, but he loves you too much to let you stay the way you are. Always strive to emulate him. When knowledge entered the world, sin entered the world, and it only gets worse and harder. I hope this long message can be received openly.


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#196000 - 12/20/07 08:01 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: bocaj]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
bocaj,

I've heard all this before, and I strongly disagree.

Originally Posted By: bocaj
The fact is the bible clearly states homosexuality is a sin along with drunkenness, idolatry and all the rest. It is equal to all the rest. Just because you sin does not mean God does not love you. God loves gays just as he loves the drunks, murderers, rapists, and all the rest of us humans, cause we are all sinners.


Thanks for the reminder. We are ALL sinners.

Originally Posted By: bocaj
God loves you the way you are, but he loves you too much to let you stay the way you are.


I doubt that. God doesn't give a shit. He left me here to deal with all this stuff on my own, being gay and also an alcoholic and a survivor. And of the above three sins, (and that's taking your word that these are sins) being gay is the least of them.

The fact is that I relate to men very differently than I relate to women, and it doesn't all have to do with sex. I like men emotionally more than women, and it just so happens that I like sex with men equally well.

I appreciate you taking the time to share your views, but I'm not sure why it's so important to you. If there were an Alcoholics and Survivors forum, would you have made the same argument to the drunks? I humbly suggest that we ask the moderators to move this thread to the Spirituality and Survivors, because your reply is much more about theology than homosexuality.

I have kids, and my foremost responsibility is to them. When I was married to a woman (their mother) we were not the best of family, lots of dischord. Now that I'm 'married' to a man, my teenage twins are doing very well and we have a happy family. I'm proud of that. I'm also proud of the fact that I have been able to stay reasonably good friends with my ex-wife.

I define sin as something that hurts someone or causes some harm. I don't consider my sexuality to be a sin, and I don't see how it could be. The only people who are harmed are people like you, who are not happy unless they are telling other people how to run their lives. It seems that is more your sin (by MY definition) than mine.

Respectfully submitted,

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#196001 - 12/20/07 08:06 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: AndyJB2005]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Thanks for this, Andy. It's great research material, and makes a great case on behalf of Tolerance. It's worth repeating the link.

Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
Check out this letter from a Mr. Bruce Lowe. Lowe is a minister once staunchly against homosexuality, but through study of the Bible and other materials -- and through his faith -- came to believe God made gay people too.

It's a pretty long read, but it's a great thing, I think.

http://www.godmademegay.com



Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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#196004 - 12/20/07 08:45 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Lazarus]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I never understood the need of Christians to denounce homosexuality. It's like their banner flag. "LOOK AT ME, I'M STRAIGHT."

It's almost an obsession to them, finding others who are sinning (in their mind) and letting them know. Why can't they worry about their own lives?

It's sad the church has turned more into a political party than a Jesus-centered body.

I know Bocaj is trying to save me, but ironically it's doing the opposite. Attitudes like his are what made me leave the church. Their stanch, unbendability actually hurts their cause, in my opinion.

My two moms have been together a quarter of a century. You're telling me they're akin to a murderer, and that their relationship is bound to fail? LOL

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#196018 - 12/20/07 10:48 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: AndyJB2005]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Two comments:

Just as a user here: While I was often abused in a church context and this has left me a spiritual train wreck in some ways, I do still consider myself a Christan and am trying to regain the sense of faith and spiritual peace I see in other guys - including many on this site. Nevertheless, I have to say I see little sense in the selective appeals to the text of the Bible as literal truth that are often used in discussions of homosexuality. It just isn't on to insist that verses such-and-so are God's word and therefore true, while others are quietly ignored because they clearly represent the social ideas of the first century and have no place or use today. Is anyone here prepared to argue that epilepsy is caused by demonic possession, for example?

Now as a moderator: MaleSurvivor is a resource of dialogue, compassion, support, healing, and recovery for men and teens who have been sexually abused. That agenda requires mutual respect and consideration by all users for all other users at all times. We may get a wobble now and then, sure; we're all human, after all. But our facilities are not available as platforms for judging or blaming other users for any reason whatever; we have all had enough of that in our past and if we need more it is available to us in ample measure outside the site.

Specifically, this forum is an arena for gay survivors and others concerned about gay issues to share their ideas, joys, anxieties, triumphs, defeats, and feelings in general about these topics. If a survivor comes here and needs to talk about his homosexual inclinations because those feelings frighten or worry him, he is welcome to do so and to be honest about how he feels. But there is a difference between telling others, "This is my feeling and why it concerns me - what do you think?", and confronting them with, "This is a fact; accept it." The latter approach is dismissive, judgmental and insulting to all of the guys here for whom being gay is a matter of personal identity, and hence cannot contribute to anyone's recovery, at least not in the way we pursue it here.

Please take this consideration into account when posting here, or indeed, anywhere on the site. All of us have a right to ask for the support and understanding we need, and all of us deserve it, just as we are.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#196105 - 12/20/07 10:56 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: roadrunner]
bocaj Offline
New Here

Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 8
I am sorry to all who were offended by my comment. That was not my intention. I took this forum for an open discussion on the topic of bein gay and a survivor and the links between the two as causes of one another. The only reason I responded was because most comments on this forum were on the topic of being gay and christian and were bashing other christians and churches. If you look through them my comment was less harsh than most prior to it. I honestly wanted to receive feedback from the people in this forum and have received enough to see that you all are hurt enough to not want input from an outsider. And to lazarus, yes I would say the same and do to all who address the topic with me. The fact is in general I agree with all of you on how gays are treated by christians and that is has become a banner flag in recent times. While I do not agree with the gay lifestyle, or the alcoholic, or sexually promiscuous for that matter, does not mean that I am not guilty of similar sins either and that is not my ultimate goal in this life, that is to condemn those, and for that I am sorry. The fact is we are all on this site for positive help and in expressing our concerns, or histories we expose ourselves to comments from other users, whether were just alike or not. We are all alike here and that is to say we are all survivors, me included. I am looking for healing like the rest of you. I am sorry and will refrain from commenting here any more



Edited by bocaj (12/20/07 10:57 PM)

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#196109 - 12/20/07 11:15 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: bocaj]
Lazarus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 851
Loc: Below the radar, USA
Bocaj,

I take that as an apology and warmly accept it. No permanent offense taken, and none intended in return. Yes, this thread involves both spirituality and sexuality, and yes, the church has definate pronouncements on both. I'll admit that I am prejudiced against you on the basis of the limited information I have about you; but primarily on the fact that you are prejudiced against me because I call myself 'gay'.

My defination of morality and sin is very similar to almost all of the religious people I know and associate with, but the basis for my definition is different; I believe in a humanistic morality, not a devine one.

So if I may, I'd like to ask you to give me one other example of a sin that does not hurt anyone or anything and does no other harm, other than homosexuality.

Curiously yours,

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

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